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[NYCmetsfan]

No, I don't think any explanation would satisfy me as to why it's okay to deny basic human rights from millions of people.
I am however curious why you seem to be okay with this.

If your talking about the vote. I'll answer they haven't expressed an desire to be incorporated into Israel and arent Israelis. They are under military occupation. Usually democracy is suspended under that.

The other thing like denial of water rights, destruction of homes, expansion of settlements should end. There's no excuse for that even under military occupation.

 

[Partial Gamification]

A more arable microclimate could be terraformed in the Negev.

Test case with a few acres, something like Fulbright, in association with Albert Katz International School for Desert Studies. (Other options sought)

Get larger plan together along the way, shoot for proposal to accommodate larger population (approximately 10 million over 20 years) by 2020-2025, building sustainable communities.

Maybe a common goal for the Palestinians and the Israelis could help bring-out common values and needs.

Thread-worthy topic?

 

[Cromat]

Depends on the type of attack and situation, but generally pretty much the same if any of the soveirgn states around them would attack them.
Though again, you can't justify denying basic human rights from million of people because some of them might do something bad in the future.

I wish i could believe you but I think it will be the exact same situation. If Palestinian militants violate the peace agreement it would make Israel retaliate fiercely and we'll end up with "Israel launches assault on Palestine" again. This conflict predates 1967, and some people would continue to fight Israel even if an independent Palestine is established. An agreement would have already been reached (like in Ireland) if not for the fact that Arab states have a terrible track record at stability and keeping law and order. Arab society is in such turmoil that it hasn't yet decided what it wants and how it plans to achieve it.

Occupying a people against their wishes is wrong but ending the occupation involves taking a huge risk solely on the Israeli side (which hasn't worked out well in the past). The total lack of understanding of this point often found here amounts to a tacit denial of Israelis' right to live peacefully in their own independent state.

 

[dripdripsplash]

A more arable microclimate could be terraformed in the Negev.

Test case with a few acres, something like Fulbright, in association with Albert Katz International School for Desert Studies. (Other options sought)

Get larger plan together along the way, shoot for proposal to accommodate larger population (approximately 10 million over 20 years) by 2020-2025, building sustainable communities.

Maybe a common goal for the Palestinians and the Israelis could help bring-out common values and needs.

Thread-worthy topic?

Palestinian and Israel officials can't even sit in a room and make deals with each other do you really think they'd work together to terraform a dessert ?

Edit: OT some of the pictures on FB are just horrid. Some Israelis taking out chairs and watching at the bombing as it is a light show cheering and clapping when a bomb hits.

I know why this conflict will never end.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Occupying a people against their wishes is wrong but ending the occupation involves taking a huge risk solely on the Israeli side (which hasn't worked out well in the past). The total lack of understanding of this point often found here amounts to a tacit denial of Israelis' right to live peacefully in their own independent state.

Tried to make this point last night. Summarized better.

It doesn't excuse the horrible stuff Israel does and the continued expansion of settlements but it does temper the 'end the occupation NOW'

 

[RustyNails]

I wish i could believe you but I think it will be the exact same situation. If Palestinian militants violate the peace agreement it would make Israel retaliate fiercely and we'll end up with "Israel launches assault on Palestine" again. This conflict predates 1967, and some people would continue to fight Israel even if an independent Palestine is established. An agreement would have already been reached (like in Ireland) if not for the fact that Arab states have a terrible track record at stability and keeping law and order. Arab society is in such turmoil that it hasn't yet decided what it wants and how it plans to achieve it.

Occupying a people against their wishes is wrong but ending the occupation involves taking a huge risk solely on the Israeli side (which hasn't worked out well in the past). The total lack of understanding of this point often found here amounts to a tacit denial of Israelis' right to live peacefully in their own independent state.

Your mindset automatically assumes Palestinians going to war mode and violating treaties as soon granted independence. Why is that. Why do you think they are idiots. Why dont you give Israelis the agency to be the aggressors, after time and history has well proven such being the usual case. Why do Palestinians want to destroy everything they fought and gained in the last 60 years however terrible it may be by letting a trigger happy nutter suddenly drop a million bombs out of nowhere over Israel. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

The reason they wont attack is the same reason Iran wont attack. Self preservation. Sure there will always be sabre rattling. But to think a tiny little country will suddenly pose an existential threat to a military superpower in the region is just smoke and mirrors to deny basic human rights to Palestinians. To think that US and Europe would sit back and do nothing is even more ludicrous. You bring up IRA but fail to grasp the very similar situation between IRA and PLO. You do realize that PLO's stated goal was the destruction of Israel up till 1993 peace accords? Yeah they are our buddies now, because Israel promised to remove settlements in exchange for PLO renouncing terrorism. Guess which side of the deal did not held their end of the bargain. Similarly its ignorant to assume Hamas wont keep up their end of the bargain in exchange for Israel upholding principles of API.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Palestinian and Israel officials can't even sit in a room and make deals with each other do you really think they'd work together to terraform a dessert ?

Edit: OT some of the pictures on FB are just horrid. Some Israelis taking out chairs and watching at the bombing as it is a light show cheering and clapping when a bomb hits.

I know why this conflict will never end.

Not the whole of the Negev, its something positive to try and put on the periphery of the overall conflict. There is no bright spot on the horizon. It could even be done in conjunction with a canal on the Egyptian-side to stop the flow of arms, if the boarder-waterway ever happened. I think you have a point but i'd like to think something can be done.

UN and Jon Kerry are condemning Israeli support [of the attacks] and asking Hamas to stop rocket fire. Ban Ki Moon is looking for bold ideas, there must be a few practical solutions to increase cooperation on a number of levels.

edit; Kerry didn't go so far as to condemn the IDF. "Israel has the right to defend itself."

 

[Cromat]

Your mindset automatically assumes Palestinians going to war mode and violating treaties as soon granted independence. Why is that. Why do you think they are idiots. Why dont you give Israelis the agency to be the aggressors, after time and history has well proven such being the usual case. Why do Palestinians want to destroy everything they fought and gained in the last 60 years however terrible it may be by letting a trigger happy nutter suddenly drop a million bombs out of nowhere over Israel. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

The reason they wont attack is the same reason Iran wont attack. Self preservation. Sure there will always be sabre rattling. But to think a tiny little country will suddenly pose an existential threat to a military superpower in the region is just smoke and mirrors to deny basic human rights to Palestinians. To think that US and Europe would sit back and do nothing is even more ludicrous. You bring up IRA but fail to grasp the very similar situation between IRA and PLO. You do realize that PLO's stated goal was the destruction of Israel up till 1993 peace accords? Yeah they are our buddies now, because Israel promised to remove settlements in exchange for PLO renouncing terrorism. Guess which side of the deal did not held their end of the bargain. Similarly its ignorant to assume Hamas wont keep up their end of the bargain in exchange for Israel upholding principles of API.

I think it's clear that you believe that the Arabs have never committed any act of aggression against Israel or violated any agreement with it. It's also clear that you are choosing to ignore the large proportion of Arabs which will not accept Israel in any borders. Our disagreement about basic facts is too much for constructive discussion.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Israel does not want peace
brave journalism by Gideon Levy

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection. If Israel had wanted to achieve peace through the Oslo Accords, it would at least have stopped the construction in the settlements at its own initiative. That this did not happen proves that Oslo was fraudulent, or at best the chronicle of a failure foretold. If Israel had wanted to achieve peace at Taba, at Camp David, at Sharm el-Sheikh, in Washington or in Jerusalem, its first move should have been to end all construction in the territories. Unconditionally. Without a quid pro quo. The fact that Israel did not is proof that it did not want a just peace.

But the settlements were only a touchstone of Israel’s intentions. Its rejectionism is embedded far more deeply – in its DNA, its bloodstream, its raison d’être, its most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone. There, at the deepest level, is entrenched the value of “am sgula” – God’s “treasured people” – and “God chose us.” In practice, this is translated to mean that, in this land, Jews are allowed to do what is forbidden to others. That is the point of departure, and there is no way to get from there to a just peace. There is no way to reach a just peace when the name of the game is the dehumanization of the Palestinians. No way to achieve peace when the demonization of the Palestinians is hammered into people’s heads day after day. Those who are convinced that every Palestinian is a suspicious person and that every Palestinian wants “to throw the Jews into the sea” will never make peace with the Palestinians. Most Israelis are convinced of the truth of both those statements.

The only country on the planet with no borders is so far unwilling to delineate even the compromise borders it is ready to be satisfied with. Israel has not internalized the fact that, for the Palestinians, the borders of 1967 are the mother of all compromises, the red line of justice (or relative justice). For the Israelis, they are “suicide borders.” This is why the preservation of the status quo has become the true Israeli aim, the primary goal of Israeli policy, almost its be-all and end-all. The problem is that the existing situation cannot last forever. Historically, few nations have ever agreed to live under occupation without resistance. And the international community, too, is one day apt to utter a firm pronouncement on this state of affairs, with accompanying punitive measures. It follows that the Israeli goal is unrealistic.

Disconnected from reality, the majority of Israelis pursue their regular way of life. In their mind’s eye the world is always against them, and the areas of occupation on their doorstep are beyond their realm of interest. Anyone who dares criticize the occupation policy is branded an anti-Semite, every act of resistance is perceived as an existential threat. All international opposition to the occupation is read as the “delegitimizing” of Israel and as a provocation to the country’s very existence. The world’s seven billion people – most of whom are against the occupation – are wrong, and six million Israeli Jews – most of whom support the occupation – are right. That’s the reality in the eyes of the average Israeli.

Add to this the repression, the concealment and the obfuscation, and you have another explanation for the rejectionism: Why should anyone strive for peace as long as life in Israel is good, calm prevails and the reality is concealed? The only way the besieged Gaza Strip can remind people of its existence is by firing rockets, and the West Bank only gets onto the agenda these days when blood is shed there. Similarly, the viewpoint of the international community is only taken into account when it tries to impose boycotts and sanctions, which in their turn immediately generate a campaign of self-victimization studded with blunt – and at times also impertinent – historical accusations.

The collective complex is utterly tragic. BDS is likely the only movement that can puncture the bubble.

 

[Linkhero1]

Cease-fire with Hamas is not on Israel's agenda

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told members of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Thursday that a cease-fire with Hamas was not on the agenda.

Netanyahu was asked a number of times whether the government had certain political goals and whether he was in contact with Egypt or other countries to try to bring about a cease-fire through diplomatic means, MKs said.

"I am not talking to anybody about a cease-fire right now," Netanyahu told the committee. "It's not even on the agenda."

Netanyahu also stressed that he had received understanding and support from every foreign leader he had spoken to in the last day. "French President Francois Hollande told me that I am right and even issued a statement condemning the rocket fire afterward," Netanyahu said.

Way to take initiative.

 

[m_shortpants]

Cease-fire with Hamas is not on Israel's agenda



Way to take initiative.

Approval from the French. I find that a bit ironic.

 

[Chariot]

Approval from the French. I find that a bit ironic.

A lot of this conflict seems somewhat ironic. I am curious how people will look at it after it ended (if it ends) with a few years of distance.

 

[shinobi602]

This just popped up in my Facebook feed, allegedly Israelis enjoying the bombings. Hopefully the context isn't true and it's another pic but pretty fucking disgusting if it is.

 

[Menaged]

I won't be shocked if it's ture.
I see way too many idiotic posts on Facebook in the last couple of days, from people I considered friends. There's a lot of hate right now unfortunately :\

 

[RustyNails]

I think it's clear that you believe that the Arabs have never committed any act of aggression against Israel or violated any agreement with it. It's also clear that you are choosing to ignore the large proportion of Arabs which will not accept Israel in any borders. Our disagreement about basic facts is too much for constructive discussion.

Thank you for addressing all the points in my post in such an expertly detailed and concise manner. I never said Arabs never committed an act of aggression, which has got fuck all to do what we're talking about. How about you address my post instead of throwing hands up in the air and crying bloody murder. Why do you think only Palestinians are somehow fundamentally prone to attacking Israel as soon as they get their own country. I did not see a single mention of may be even a possibility of Israel being a dick. Nope, all Palestinians and their violent, evil ways.

Pathetic. This view people share of Palestinians as savages who cannot run a country and only want to kill lash out blow up or nuke Israel as soon as they get their own country (hence We as their masters should not give it to them, those barbarians!), despite the fact that PLO renounced violence in the past in exchange for settlement withdrawal and forming a government, and has stuck to it.

 

[Lamel]

. This view people share of Palestinians as savages who cannot run a country and only want to kill lash out blow up or nuke Israel as soon as they get their own country (hence We as their masters should not give it to them, those barbarians!),

Dude come on, brown people are terrorists. Simple facts.

 

[dripdripsplash]

After a little contemplation on the conflict I remembered a lecture by my Middle East History professor that talked about historical truth and narratives.

Paraphrasing he said something along the lines of; "There is no single historical truth, there is several truth, enforced by peoples different narratives of any single situation or happening"

For example:

The narrative of the Jewish people and the establishment of Israel is one of great victory, and first of all safety at last in their own state free from persecution wherever they went. It is great independence at last from the horrors of the pogroms, holocaust and ethnic cleansings throughout history.

The narrative of the Palestinian people and the establishment of Israel is one of great defeat. One of a foreign entity, previously living amongst them in peace, but now arriving with the target of stealing their very lands and homes throughout hundreds of years.

It is one of great humiliation too, of united Arab defeat no less, at the hands of this unjust occuppier and now being forced to give up their lands to this entity.

Now you must note, that these narratives are enforced and lived through by the people themselves. It is "the truth" to the Jewish people and it is also "the truth" to the Palestinian people.

Two narratives. Two truths. One historical happening.

Now the thing is, and that's when I kinda go off in my own thoughts, is if peace must be achieved, in my opinion, the two narratives must be teached and exchanged, by both parties, the Jews and the Palestinians. This exchangement will result in acceptance of the two narratives. This will lead to understanding. Understanding will lead to peace.










Or the exchangement will just end in both sides calling each others narratives false and the rockets keep flying.


Or maybe I'm just babbling about, who knows....

EDIT: And I just realized the last couple of sentences sounds like something out of KOTOR.

 

[ankuo]

After a little contemplation on the conflict I remembered a lecture by my Middle East History professor that talked about historical truth and narratives.

Paraphrasing he said something along the lines of; "There is no single historical truth, there is several truth, enforced by peoples different narratives of any single situation or happening"

For example:

The narrative of the Jewish people and the establishment of Israel is one of great victory, and first of all safety at last in their own state free from persecution wherever they went. It is great independence at last from the horrors of the pogroms, holocaust and ethnic cleansings throughout history.

The narrative of the Palestinian people and the establishment of Israel is one of great defeat. One of a foreign entity, previously living amongst them in peace, but now arriving with the target of stealing their very lands and homes throughout hundreds of years.

It is one of great humiliation too, of united Arab defeat no less, at the hands of this unjust occuppier and now being forced to give up their lands to this entity.

Now you must note, that these narratives are enforced and lived through by the people themselves. It is "the truth" to the Jewish people and it is also "the truth" to the Palestinian people.

Two narratives. Two truths. One historical happening.

Now the thing is, and that's when I kinda go off in my own thoughts, is if peace must be achieved, in my opinion, the two narratives must be teached and exchanged, by both parties, the Jews and the Palestinians. This exchangement will result in acceptance of the two narratives. This will lead to understanding. Understanding will lead to peace.










Or the exchangement will just end in both sides calling each others narratives false and the rockets keep flying.


Or maybe I'm just babbling about, who knows....

I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..

 

[NYCmetsfan]

After a little contemplation on the conflict I remembered a lecture by my Middle East History professor that talked about historical truth and narratives.

Paraphrasing he said something along the lines of; "There is no single historical truth, there is several truth, enforced by peoples different narratives of any single situation or happening"

For example:

The narrative of the Jewish people and the establishment of Israel is one of great victory, and first of all safety at last in their own state free from persecution wherever they went. It is great independence at last from the horrors of the pogroms, holocaust and ethnic cleansings throughout history.

The narrative of the Palestinian people and the establishment of Israel is one of great defeat. One of a foreign entity, previously living amongst them in peace, but now arriving with the target of stealing their very lands and homes throughout hundreds of years.

It is one of great humiliation too, of united Arab defeat no less, at the hands of this unjust occuppier and now being forced to give up their lands to this entity.

Now you must note, that these narratives are enforced and lived through by the people themselves. It is "the truth" to the Jewish people and it is also "the truth" to the Palestinian people.

Two narratives. Two truths. One historical happening.

Now the thing is, and that's when I kinda go off in my own thoughts, is if peace must be achieved, in my opinion, the two narratives must be teached and exchanged, by both parties, the Jews and the Palestinians. This exchangement will result in acceptance of the two narratives. This will lead to understanding. Understanding will lead to peace.










Or the exchangement will just end in both sides calling each others narratives false and the rockets keep flying.


Or maybe I'm just babbling about, who knows....

This is a great post. Which is why the dying cultural exchange is so damaging. Meeting people always has and always will be the greatest driver of peace. Its a lot harder to 'cheerlead' and excuse certain behavior when you know people suffering because of it. I quoted Edward Said yesterday who tackled zionism from the perspective of the victims. He echos a bit of what you said. How the same thing is looked at with different lenses http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/said zionism.htm

I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..

This isn't and is frankly racist of the antisemitic variety .

 

[Terra Firma]

This isn't and is frankly racist of the antisemitic variety .

Can you point me to what exactly is racist/anti-Semitic about that post? He is referring to Israel as a state, not Jews as a people.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Can you point me to what exactly is racist/anti-Semitic about that post? He is referring to Israel as a state, not Jews as a people.

Just not saying the word 'jews' doesn't make it not antisemitic. As saying I hope someone bombs the middle east doesn't divorce that from its very racist implications.

Specifics? The reference to the 'nazi state' and the desire to watch the jewish state rot and do nothing about it. Desiring Israel to rot, die and actively cheering that on is text book antisemitism.

 

[Kadayi]

After a little contemplation on the conflict I remembered a lecture by my Middle East History professor that talked about historical truth and narratives.

Paraphrasing he said something along the lines of; "There is no single historical truth, there is several truth, enforced by peoples different narratives of any single situation or happening"

Pertinent. I thought this was quite an interesting explanation of the history behind events: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Pertinent. I thought this was quite an interesting explanation of the history behind events: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

This is not anywhere close to what he was referring to unless Amjad's said the exact opposite of what it said

 

[Jimothy]

Wow, isn't soul that poster who admitted to using Palestinians as human shields or whatever while in the Israeli army? Dude has a lot of balls posting in a thread like this.

 

[badb0y]

This just popped up in my Facebook feed, allegedly Israelis enjoying the bombings. Hopefully the context isn't true and it's another pic but pretty fucking disgusting if it is.

This has to be fake, I refuse to believe that humans as a species have stooped this low.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

This has to be fake, I refuse to believe that humans as a species have stooped this low.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was real, there are always scenes of candy being handed out in streets in certain places following attacks on civilians in enemy countries.

 

[Chichikov]

I wish i could believe you but I think it will be the exact same situation. If Palestinian militants violate the peace agreement it would make Israel retaliate fiercely and we'll end up with "Israel launches assault on Palestine" again. This conflict predates 1967, and some people would continue to fight Israel even if an independent Palestine is established. An agreement would have already been reached (like in Ireland) if not for the fact that Arab states have a terrible track record at stability and keeping law and order. Arab society is in such turmoil that it hasn't yet decided what it wants and how it plans to achieve it.

Occupying a people against their wishes is wrong but ending the occupation involves taking a huge risk solely on the Israeli side (which hasn't worked out well in the past). The total lack of understanding of this point often found here amounts to a tacit denial of Israelis' right to live peacefully in their own independent state.

The exact same argument was used to explain why you can't end Apartheid or slavery.
You can justify pretty much any oppressive regime like that.

Also, I think you're seriously overestimating the risk, the worst case scenario is pretty much what you see now in Gaza.
Don't get me wrong, it's pretty bad, but it's not an existential threat, traffic accidents kill about 100 times more people in Israel.
I also think you're wrong about the Palestinians, like all people they mostly want to live in peace, also historically, they didn't participate in big numbers in the 1948 war and it took them 20 years of living under occupation before they even started protesting.

p.s.
If you're right and the only way Israel can exist is by denying basic human rights from millions of people than the enemies of Israel are right and it has no right to exist.
I don't think it's the case though.

This has to be fake, I refuse to believe that humans as a species have stooped this low.

It's real.
I wouldn't make too much out of it though, we had "viewing parties" for the Iraqis scud missile in the Gulf War.
People like to see shit explode in the sky, it is what it is.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Middle East, including the Palestinian question - Security Council, 7214th meeting 10 Jul 2014

At 31:45 the Israeli Ambassador to the UN has an Aide bust out the air raid siren on the iPhone.

 

[zeroOman]

This has to be fake, I refuse to believe that humans as a species have stooped this low.

I remember something smiler were Israel kids wrote something .... wait I found it xDDD

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/israeli-children-sign-their-missiles_18.html

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/...sraeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/

 

[artist]

This isn't and is frankly racist of the antisemitic variety .

Please excuse the exaggeration.

If for example, N Korea or XYZ state is committing atrocities then wishing for Karma to bite them in the ass isnt racist.

 

[RustyNails]

I remember something smiler were Israel kids wrote something .... wait I found it xDDD

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7760/1663/1600/israeli%20girls%20signing%202.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/19/hezbollah_wideweb__470x316,0.jpg[/MG]

[url]http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/israeli-children-sign-their-missiles_18.html[/url]

[url]http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/[/url][/QUOTE]

Bubu both sides and froufrou the terrorist mickey mouse.

 

[ramuh]

Seriously. This is will a tit for tat until either the rockets run dry, Egypt negotiates a ceasefire (they usually do). Or if a rocket firing into Israel kills someone, then I don't know what will happen. There seems to be leaning toward a possible ground invasion to shut the rocket sides down, and who knows what bloodshed on both sides that might entail.

 

[theignoramus]

Both Israeli and Pal societies have an underlying rot in them that manifests itself in some kind of repulsive behaviour, be it suicide bombings on the one side or straight up lynching and executions on the other.

 

[RustyNails]

Seriously. This is will a tit for tat until either the rockets run dry, Egypt negotiates a ceasefire (they usually do). Or if a rocket firing into Israel kills someone, then I don't know what will happen. There seems to be leaning toward a possible ground invasion to shut the rocket sides down, and who knows what bloodshed on both sides that might entail.

This time though, Egypt wont. Sisi hates the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot. I wish Morsi was in power right now.

 

[BaronLundi]

Now the thing is, and that's when I kinda go off in my own thoughts, is if peace must be achieved, in my opinion, the two narratives must be teached and exchanged, by both parties, the Jews and the Palestinians. This exchangement will result in acceptance of the two narratives. This will lead to understanding. Understanding will lead to peace.

Great post. You can't build peace if you're not even able to acknowledge the other side's history and pain.

I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..

Can you point me to what exactly is racist/anti-Semitic about that post? He is referring to Israel as a state, not Jews as a people.

Nazi sate? Watch them rot? Hoping to see it?

Are you that dense?

Try to apply that exact post to Palestine, or any other group of people, and tell us about what you think the feelings the person saying those exact words are towards the individuals in that group?

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Chris Hayes' commentary


This is disgusting:

I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..

 

[Terra Firma]

Nazi sate? Watch them rot? Hoping to see it?

Are you that dense?

Try to apply that exact post to Palestine, or any other group of people, and tell us about what you think the feelings the person saying those exact words are towards the individuals in that group?

Still not racist. Yes, apply the same post to "Palestine" and it's still not racist. Do you even know what racism is? There have been Jews who have prayed for Israel to rot, etc. and called Israel a Nazi state.

It is a generalization because there are peace-loving Israelis who do not support this action by the Israeli government, but it is not racist.

And if we are to follow your logic, putting sanctions on a country would then inherently be racist. Where are the protests against the "racist" sanctions against Iran or North Korea? Sanctions inherently are a collective punishment of the people for the actions of the state.

The sanctions against Iraq in the 90s led to the death of approximately 200,000 children. That was a country actually rotting due to sanctions. Was that also racism?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

The actions of Israel are worlds apart from the actions of the Nazis. There are dozens of far more similar conflicts in the world that you could compare if you really HAD to make a comparison. The reason to bring up Nazis is clear: to taunt the Jews with the memory of the attempt to literally exterminate them, it serves no practical purpose.

 

[Vindicator]

On the jewish side the nazis are brought up far more often i would say, eg ADL...

Back on topic, i heard now there's Navy artillery involved in the operation.
Not as precise as airstrikes but it probably serves it's purpose.

 

[Terra Firma]

The actions of Israel are worlds apart from the actions of the Nazis. There are dozens of far more similar conflicts in the world that you could compare if you really HAD to make a comparison. The reason to bring up Nazis is clear: to taunt the Jews with the memory of the attempt to literally exterminate them, it serves no practical purpose.

Referring to Israel (the state) as Nazi is not something done exclusively by non-Jews. Many Jews have referred to Israel as just that.

It is in reference to obvious racism by the Israeli government (and some of its people) against Arabs and Palestinians and even against some non-light skinned, non-Ashkenazi Jews, followed by actually killing Arabs and systematically taking over their lands. I don't think there is anything in the present comparable to what Israel is doing with its gradual and systematic suppression of the Palestinians followed by land grabs to eventually taking over all of Palestine (although I think the situation is not comparable to Nazism either).

No, it is not a reverse Holocaust card as you're making it out to be.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Referring to Israel (the state) as Nazi is not something done exclusively by non-Jews. Many Jews have referred to Israel as just that.

It is in reference to obvious racism by the Israeli government (and some of its people) against Arabs and Palestinians and even against some non-light skinned, non-Ashkenazi Jews, followed by actually killing Arabs and systematically taking over their lands. I don't think there is anything in the present comparable to what Israel is doing with its gradual and systematic suppression of the Palestinians followed by land grabs to eventually taking over all of Palestine (although I think the situation is not comparable to Nazism either).

No, it is not a reverse Holocaust card as you're making it out to be.

Yes I'm sure the original poster we are chastising had all these nuances and excuses in mind when he made his comment... It's a stupid, lazy and crazy comparison and while I don't particularly care whether it is inherently antisemitic, I can see why others would see it as a big red flag.

 

[MacNille]

I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..

Seriously?

 

[JordanN]

Bubu both sides and froufrou the terrorist mickey mouse.

Signing weapons is an old practice.

For those who don't know: that's Doolittle attaching a Japanese medal to a bomb before they raided Japan.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Signing weapons is nothing new.

To me it does make a huge difference whether service men and women do it as opposed to little children...
Just the thought of it is utterly repulsive to me.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Signing weapons is an old practice.
http://i6.minus.com/iYIywEVrS3Bw4.jpg[img]

For those who don't know: that's Doolittle attaching a Japanese medal to a bomb before they raided Japan.[/QUOTE]

I think it's a pretty gross practice in both cases. Particularly since those bombs are going to be indiscriminately dropped on civilian targets. WWII is the war that featured both sides launching mass air-raids and killing record breaking numbers of civilians so I don't know if it's a comparison you necessarily want to invite here.

[quote="ankuo, post: 120436531"]I honstly belive in Karma.. What the Natzi state is doing now will one day bite them in the ass and I pray to god we do nothing to bail them out and watch them rot. Like sone of these Israeli apologist say your reap what you sow i really hope i can see this happen in my lifetime..[/QUOTE]

bye

 

[Kadayi]

The actions of Israel are worlds apart from the actions of the Nazis. There are dozens of far more similar conflicts in the world that you could compare if you really HAD to make a comparison. The reason to bring up Nazis is clear: to taunt the Jews with the memory of the attempt to literally exterminate them, it serves no practical purpose.

You're not actually demonstrating any distinction in your post. You say they're worlds apart, but parallels to the Warsaw Ghetto in terms of containment and control are rather uncanny to say the least. A people are being oppressed, do you deny that?

This is not anywhere close to what he was referring to unless Amjad's said the exact opposite of what it said

More I thought it was interesting in terms of debunking certain popular myths about the early days of Israel based on the historical record.

 

[JordanN]

I think it's a pretty gross practice in both cases. Particularly since those bombs are going to be indiscriminately dropped on civilian targets. WWII is the war that featured both sides launching mass air-raids and killing record breaking numbers of civilians so I don't know if it's a comparison you necessarily want to invite here.

I don't think the intended act was for "killing civilians" but keeping up morale during war. It's not the same as some Mickey Mouse character someone brought up that is inherently brainwashing and not related to war.
The morality of it is obviously up to debate.

You're not actually demonstrating any distinction in your post. You say they're worlds apart, but parallels to the Warsaw Ghetto in terms of containment and control are rather uncanny to say the least. A people are being oppressed, do you deny that?

Not even close. Just a quick look at wiki says many Jews suffered from disease and starvation in the warsaw ghettos. I know Palestinians have access to healthcare, especially since they can come to Israel for it.

Some of you guys really need to give up on the Nazi comparisons. The most heinous Israeli act still drastically pales to every day Nazi German life.

 

[BaronLundi]

Still not racist. Yes, apply the same post to "Palestine" and it's still not racist. Do you even know what racism is? There have been Jews who have prayed for Israel to rot, etc. and called Israel a Nazi state.

It is a generalization because there are peace-loving Israelis who do not support this action by the Israeli government, but it is not racist.

And if we are to follow your logic, putting sanctions on a country would then inherently be racist. Where are the protests against the "racist" sanctions against Iran or North Korea? Sanctions inherently are a collective punishment of the people for the actions of the state.

The sanctions against Iraq in the 90s led to the death of approximately 200,000 children. That was a country actually rotting due to sanctions. Was that also racism?

Besides completely missing the meaning of the karma part (read his comment again and ask yourself what does the Shoah means in that regard) you're trying way too hard (and failing) to spin a statement that basically reads as "I wish the people of Nazi State Israel are left to rot". You're welcome to try harder, but really I wouldn't bother to do it for my sake as I have zero interest in debating your cherry picking the particulars of a blatantly hateful statement which, incidentally, has been dealt as such.

You're not actually demonstrating any distinction in your post. You say they're worlds apart, but parallels to the Warsaw Ghetto in terms of containment and control are rather uncanny to say the least. A people are being oppressed, do you deny that?

Palestinian people are oppressed.

When Israel starts to funnel Palestinian families to the back of a truck to be gased by exhaust fumes, or in ovens or gas chambers, or any equivalent mass murdering ways you'll be able to make that comparison without appearing a fool. God forbids anything even remotely close ever happens but if so I'll make it too. Even the Warsaw Ghetto parallel is unwarranted and only shows you probably need to get an update about what really happened there and how. I'll give you a hint : liquidation.

Israel deeds towards Palestinians are bad enough as they are and need not be lazily and offensively caricatured to be firmly condemned.

 

[MacNille]

You're not actually demonstrating any distinction in your post. You say they're worlds apart, but parallels to the Warsaw Ghetto in terms of containment and control are rather uncanny to say the least. A people are being oppressed, do you deny that?



More I thought it was interesting in terms of debunking certain popular myths about the early days of Israel based on the historical record.

Gaza is not even close to Warsaw Ghetto. Educate yourself on the subject!

 

[JordanN]

Palestinians are free to grow their own food and have a marketplace. How many Jewish delis were allowed to operate under the Nazis without being destroyed?

The comparisons to Nazis is really disrespectful to the many people who had to endure living in attics throughout all of WW2 as well as anyone else persecuted by NSDAP (Hitler wasn't just punishing Jews. He was also killing off mentally disabled, gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, resisting Germans, Soviets etc).