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[IncandescentPrecept]

At the end of the day, to stop this cycle, one has to come up and say "we give up". For the sake of protecting their people. Do Palestinians have land of their own?

 

[Quotient]

Okay ...

#Ether

I don't know what this means.

 

[Partial Gamification]

What honor killing? Six Israeli Jews were arrested as suspects.

The three Israelis were kidnapped and killed. Their murders have not been found.

The "honor killing" was the six arrested, this is how its been described. Two events leading up to this that were related to the current situation, a pretext for the airstrikes and increased rocket fire.

edit:

The discovery on June 30th of the bodies of three Jewish teenagers, kidnapped while hitchhiking home from bible college to a settlement south of Jerusalem, was followed two days later by the apparent revenge killing of a Palestinian. Within days, riots that followed the murders had escalated to volleys of rocket fire from Gaza, which have been met by Israeli strikes.
[...]
The escalation has demolished an uneasy peace. Safe behind their walls and the protective umbrella of the Iron Dome anti-missile system, many Israelis had begun to forget about security. Political party leaders focused on economic affairs. Whenever Palestinians were uppity, Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, promoted “conflict management”, a euphemism for muddling through.

Suddenly, the centre-right ground that Mr Netanyahu has dominated by tinkering and sidestepping big decisions for five years is slipping from under him. “Mr Netanyahu has lost the greatest asset of his tenure—security and calm,” says Ofer Zalzberg, an Israeli political analyst. “If he doesn’t regain it, he will fall.” The country is polarising between those who want a peace settlement and those who support military action. A poll conducted on July 2nd, as tensions began to bubble over, showed parties on the far-right and left had benefited. The small left-wing party, Meretz, doubled its support.

On July 7th, as the prime minister vacillated, Avigdor Lieberman, the foreign minister and Mr Netanyahu’s former chief of staff, ended a partnership with the prime minister’s Likud party, taking his ten parliamentarians with him and calling for a heavy offensive against Hamas. Reluctantly, and in part to shore up his right-wing flank, Mr Netanyahu launched a campaign of air strikes the next day, named “Operation Protective Edge”. Public pressure for a ground assault is mounting. “Bibi’s afraid,” says a Tel Aviv bus driver, who flies the colours of his infantry regiment above a swaying fluffy doll pinned in the cabin of his bus.
[...]
http://www.economist.com/news/middl...rked-military-escalation-costing-dozens-lives

 

[pgtl_10]

An article on the propaganda war. Detailed numbers on the kille present in the article too.

http://972mag.com/blame-israel-and-hamas-both-for-gazas-civilian-deaths/93351/



EDIT: Arghhh Scullibundo please quote your post. And not too be rude or something but you're not really bringing anything of value to the thread with a post like that.

EDIT:

It does. I have seen the 'Hamas Mickey Mouse' footage. It's so disgusting.

I find it hilarious that calling a home before bombing it somehow makes the action acceptable. That article is hilarious. When I was in Ramallah I would stay in my home because as a human I felt safer. Instead of trying to blame the Palestinians about staying in their homes we should ask why are their homes being bombed in the first place.

Also Israel uses a sound motor? You think people are going to leave when people shoot at your house? I'm amazed the amount of twisting to justify the bombing of someone's home.

You call this a warning?

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/seconds-warning-destroys.html

I wouldn't run out of the house because of that so-called warning.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Recall that I asked you for the source of your evidence, and you decided not to do that. How can I address your evidence if you don't show it to me?

EDIT: Oh, you linked to the IDF's murder porn youtube page. I am very familiar with this channel. Great gems on here for anyone wanting nothing but videos of aircraft bombings. You'll have to excuse me if I don't take my evidence from the exact people we're trying to find objective information about. Are you for real with this?

Here you go:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/civilian-deaths-shine-light-on-israeli-tactic-1404955844

Dismissing the source is a familiar tactic and akin to dismissing any video from Gaza as 'Pallywood'. Where else do you expect to find the evidence? Who else would be filming an aborted IDF airstrike, come on.

There is plenty of evidence that Hamas encourages civilians to act as human shields, if that would be less objectionable?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Then which great power has taken the place of a would-be monolithic international community? There is already a globalized narrative that enables Israel to do what it does without repercussions.

EXACTLY.

Delusion of powerlessness.

 

[pgtl_10]

The three Israelis were kidnapped and killed. Their murders have not been found.

The "honor killing" was the six arrested, this is how its been described. Two events leading up to this that were related to the current situation, a pretext for the airstrikes and increased rocket fire.

edit:

I just like to point out the Iron Dome is not really good. The truth is the Palestinian rockets aren't that effective. However, their made to be worse than what Israel has.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I just like to point out the Iron Dome is not really good. The truth is the Palestinian rockets aren't that effective. However, their made to be worse than what Israel has.

There is a report that show the iron dome has reduced economic costs of the rocket attacks. I'm not sure how precise it is, there are limitations to each platform when it comes to interception. I've heard from 5%-90% success rate. David's Sling is coming and there are more devices on the books.

 

[pgtl_10]

At the end of the day, to stop this cycle, one has to come up and say "we give up". For the sake of protecting their people. Do Palestinians have land of their own?

Why can't Israelis give up? What are Palestinians giving up if they have nothing?

Why don't say this about those Syrian "rebels" or Libyan "rebels" who were losing to Ghadaffi before Nato bombed him.

It's funny how Israel gets special treatment not afforded to other countries.

 

[pgtl_10]

There is a report that show the iron dome has reduced economic costs of the rocket attacks. I'm not sure how precise it is, there are limitations to each platform when it comes to interception. I've heard from 5%-90% success rate. David's Sling is coming and there are more devices on the books.

Yeah but I think the MIT professor is the best authority on this:

SIEGEL: They say it was intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system. How would - how successful is that system, in your view?

POSTOL: We can tell, for sure, from video images and even photographs that the Iron Dome system is not working very well at all. It - my guess is maybe 5 percent of the time - could be even lower.

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/09/330183774/the-rockets-from-hamas-and-the-iron-dome-that-could-use-patching

Edit: This part is ridiculous:

POSTOL: In part, this is an intended game on the part of the adversary. You know, if you can create - if you can intentionally force the Israelis to kill a lot of noncombatants, that's good for your campaign. It makes them look worse. It makes the Israelis look worse.

Gaza is incredibly dense and even he reluctantly acknowledges that earlier in the interview. More excuses to justify why Israel uses an army to handle crimes rather than operate with swat teams and root out who they want. Does the U.S. use air force against majority black neighborhoods if a white man dies and a black is believed to be responsible? I find it amazing how people do whatever it takes to blame the weaker side especially when the other side has more resources to handle the matter properly.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Why can't Israelis give up? What are Palestinians giving up if they have nothing?

Why don't say this about those Syrian "rebels" or Libyan "rebels" who were losing to Ghadaffi before Nato bombed him.

It's funny how Israel gets special treatment not afforded to other countries.

I'm asking about whether Palestinians having land because I thought maybe they all live in a strip of land that Israel is claiming as their own. Because if that's the case, then they have no choice but to fight if they're being attacked.

I don't know anything Syria and Libya.

In other words, stop making assumptions and getting defensive.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Yeah but I think the MIT professor is the best authority on this:



http://www.npr.org/2014/07/09/330183774/the-rockets-from-hamas-and-the-iron-dome-that-could-use-patching

I can accept that, but will point-out its a guess. Early reports had it at 15% [edit: it was 33.3% 5/15] from the IDF. Even if so low, could the redundancy of the network not be increased so that an intercept was much more probable? What is the cost of perpetual war? Would not twenty times the number of intercept systems surely be cheaper than a conflict that potentially goes from Gaza to the other neighbors of Israel?

 

[pgtl_10]

I'm asking about whether Palestinians having land because I thought maybe they all live in a strip of land that Israel is claiming as their own. Because if that's the case, then they have no choice but to fight if they're being attacked.

I don't know anything Syria and Libya.

In other words, stop making assumptions and getting defensive.

Sorry. I misunderstood.

 

[Buzzati]

Dismissing the source is a familiar tactic and akin to dismissing any video from Gaza as 'Pallywood'. Where else do you expect to find the evidence? Who else would be filming an aborted IDF airstrike, come on.

There is plenty of evidence that Hamas encourages civilians to act as human shields, if that would be less objectionable?

You said Israel does everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. You linked a video to substantiate this. It's impossible to tell what I'm looking at without the IDF telling me. I posted a link from a free press to counter your argument about Israel doing everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. What does Hamas being shitty have to do with this?

 

[pgtl_10]

I can accept that, but will point-out its a guess. Early reports had it at 15% [edit: it was 33.3% 5/15] from the IDF. Even if so low, could the redundancy of the network not be increased so that an intercept was much more probable? What is the cost of perpetual war? Would not twenty times the number of intercept systems surely be cheaper than a conflict that potentially goes from Gaza to the other neighbors of Israel?

The same professor successfully debunked the claims of Patriot missile successes during he Gulf War so he has a decent track record.

 

[pgtl_10]

Couldn't this situation be better resolved if all Palestinians were given equal rights and representation under the law?

People talk about non-violence if Palestinians have a voice in the Knesset they wouldn't have to resort to violence and can force compromises out of the Jewish population.

It won't be pretty and you will have Rodney King type incidents but I think long term the situation will improve as new generations get used to living with each other.

 

[artist]

You said Israel does everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. You linked a video to substantiate this. It's impossible to tell what I'm looking at without the IDF telling me. I posted a link from a free press to counter your argument about Israel doing everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. What does Hamas being shitty have to do with this?

Silly you. There is no free press instead it's the Hamas distributing those pics, videos and spreading the propaganda.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

You said Israel does everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. You linked a video to substantiate this. It's impossible to tell what I'm looking at without the IDF telling me. I posted a link from a free press to counter your argument about Israel doing everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. What does Hamas being shitty have to do with this?

Or in other words, you dismissed it because the IDF are explaining what is happening in the video. You immediately dismiss it because you assume the IDF would be lying.

It is undisputed that Hamas not only put innocents at risk by placing their weapons and command centres shoulder to shoulder with civilian homes, schools and hospitals but also encourage civilians to actively become human shields. The IDF have numerous videos that substantiate their claims that in such cases they - at least sometimes - abandon attacks when aware of such shields. You can be skeptical but your disdain for an IDF youtube channel is not itself a reason to dismiss the evidence. I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have evidence that these videos are in anyway doctored or do not show what hey purport to say.

And again, the fact that Hamas use this tactic is acknowledgement that Israel would like to avoid civilian casualties. It is a calculated move to protect their military installations. Either it works and the IDF does try to avoid casualties, or it doesn't work and Hamas is throwing more and more innocents into the fire and hold responsibility for those deaths.

 

[pgtl_10]

You said Israel does everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. You linked a video to substantiate this. It's impossible to tell what I'm looking at without the IDF telling me. I posted a link from a free press to counter your argument about Israel doing everything in their power to prevent unnecessary casualties. What does Hamas being shitty have to do with this?

The Wall Street Journal is anti-Semitic.

 

[Partial Gamification]

The same professor successfully debunked the claims of Patriot missile successes during he Gulf War so he has a decent track record.

I accepted it, its in the original range I gave, and pointed out its a guess. It wasn't a guess that debunked the Patriot missiles.

Here's the deal: when Israeli babies die because of rocket attacks the Palestinians have a photo album of dead babies to put up in return. Maybe, just maybe, if the approach was less heavy-handed then there could come a day when anyone firing a rocket would be hunted down by either side as an obstacle to peace. Its total destruction or there needs to be a common goal to work toward.

 

[pgtl_10]

I accepted it, its in the original range I gave, and pointed out its a guess. It wasn't a guess that debunked the Patriot missiles.

Here's the deal: when Israeli babies die because of rocket attacks the Palestinians have a photo album of dead babies to put up in return. Maybe, just maybe, if the approach was less heavy-handed then there could come a day when anyone firing a rocket would be hunted down by either side as an obstacle to peace. Its total destruction or there needs to be a common goal to work toward.

That's why I think democracy is the best solution. It provides way for Palestinians to voice their grievances through safer means. The Israeli military can no longer be used as a method of punishment because Palestinians will have more control over their budget. They can force the military to behave and in effect diminish its influence over Israeli society. It takes away the need for violence because people will a vested interest in the process.

Will it work right away? No but as new generations grow up under a democracy they might no longer feel the need to take matters into their own hands rather than using a system to provide justice.

 

[Chumly]

Or in other words, you dismissed it because the IDF are explaining what is happening in the video. You immediately dismiss it because you assume the IDF would be lying.

It is undisputed that Hamas not only put innocents at risk by placing their weapons and command centres shoulder to shoulder with civilian homes, schools and hospitals but also encourage civilians to actively become human shields. The IDF have numerous videos that substantiate their claims that in such cases they - at least sometimes - abandon attacks when aware of such shields. You can be skeptical but your disdain for an IDF youtube channel is not itself a reason to dismiss the evidence. I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have evidence that these videos are in anyway doctored or do not show what hey purport to say.

And again, the fact that Hamas use this tactic is acknowledgement that Israel would like to avoid civilian casualties. It is a calculated move to protect their military installations. Either it works and the IDF does try to avoid casualties, or it doesn't work and Hamas is throwing more and more innocents into the fire and hold responsibility for those deaths.

So IDF calls up the Hamas and tells them they are bombing their house. Hamas get to run away and the IDF decides to bombs the kids anyways? That's a great fucking plan.

 

[SystemBug]

This week has been hell. I can't take it anymore. I have cried and read as many articles as I could. Why are we letting children die? Why are people here trying to justify it? Look at the fucking pictures. Look at the parents mourn their lose. Be fucking human.

I just want this to end.

 

[pgtl_10]

The Israeli Deputy speaker of the Knesset posts on his Facebook page that he expelled Knesset members that called IDF murders.

https://www.facebook.com/JewishLeadership/posts/10152515953938058

How is this democratic?

 

[Buzzati]

Or in other words, you dismissed it because the IDF are explaining what is happening in the video. You immediately dismiss it because you assume the IDF would be lying.

It is undisputed that Hamas not only put innocents at risk by placing their weapons and command centres shoulder to shoulder with civilian homes, schools and hospitals but also encourage civilians to actively become human shields. The IDF have numerous videos that substantiate their claims that in such cases they - at least sometimes - abandon attacks when aware of such shields. You can be skeptical but your disdain for an IDF youtube channel is not itself a reason to dismiss the evidence. I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have evidence that these videos are in anyway doctored or do not show what hey purport to say.

And again, the fact that Hamas use this tactic is acknowledgement that Israel would like to avoid civilian casualties. It is a calculated move to protect their military installations. Either it works and the IDF does try to avoid casualties, or it doesn't work and Hamas is throwing more and more innocents into the fire and hold responsibility for those deaths.

It is possible to live in a world where Hamas uses human shields and the IDF is not doing everything in their power to prevent civilian casualties - at the same time.


Video or not, I'm not seeing how they are.

 

[LNBL]

Or in other words, you dismissed it because the IDF are explaining what is happening in the video. You immediately dismiss it because you assume the IDF would be lying.

It is undisputed that Hamas not only put innocents at risk by placing their weapons and command centres shoulder to shoulder with civilian homes, schools and hospitals but also encourage civilians to actively become human shields. The IDF have numerous videos that substantiate their claims that in such cases they - at least sometimes - abandon attacks when aware of such shields. You can be skeptical but your disdain for an IDF youtube channel is not itself a reason to dismiss the evidence. I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have evidence that these videos are in anyway doctored or do not show what hey purport to say.

And again, the fact that Hamas use this tactic is acknowledgement that Israel would like to avoid civilian casualties. It is a calculated move to protect their military installations. Either it works and the IDF does try to avoid casualties, or it doesn't work and Hamas is throwing more and more innocents into the fire and hold responsibility for those deaths.

I'll bring up the attack on that beach again, what danger did they pose to the IDF? These guys (around age 20) were breaking their fast as it is Ramadan and were watching the World cup semifinal. They got killed without a warning whatsoever. How do you explain that then?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Or in other words, you dismissed it because the IDF are explaining what is happening in the video. You immediately dismiss it because you assume the IDF would be lying.

It is undisputed that Hamas not only put innocents at risk by placing their weapons and command centres shoulder to shoulder with civilian homes, schools and hospitals but also encourage civilians to actively become human shields. The IDF have numerous videos that substantiate their claims that in such cases they - at least sometimes - abandon attacks when aware of such shields. You can be skeptical but your disdain for an IDF youtube channel is not itself a reason to dismiss the evidence. I would be happy to be proved wrong if you have evidence that these videos are in anyway doctored or do not show what hey purport to say.

And again, the fact that Hamas use this tactic is acknowledgement that Israel would like to avoid civilian casualties. It is a calculated move to protect their military installations. Either it works and the IDF does try to avoid casualties, or it doesn't work and Hamas is throwing more and more innocents into the fire and hold responsibility for those deaths.

You gotta be honest though. It's an IDF filmed video. It's going to be narrated and shown in an way that puts IDF in a good light.

That's why they have an IDF channel. It's just propaganda in other words.

Look. A lot of people in IDF is fucking scum. Loads of racist settler sympathizing scum that would love to see Palestinian dies. Soul is one example. Theres loads of videos showing their... what should I call it... unprofessional behaviour. So many videos that it can't be brushed off as a single bad apple or two.

Can you post some sources on the evidence that Hamas actively uses civilian shields and such (other than IDF-channels of course) ?

I wouldn't be surprised it's true. I just want confirmation for myself.

And I think again we're running in circles. Instead of discussing who is making these civilians die IDF or Hamas, we should discuss the root of the killings started. Why did this Operation "Protective Edge" start ?

Why is the Israeli Army attacking Gaza in this operation ? Did Hamas kill those 3 boys ?
Is there any proof for this ?

EDIT: Here is an news article from an danish paper translated, describing the link between the IDF, Settlers and the ultra-right in Israel:

http://www.information.dk/503468

En gruppe unge mænd fra officersuddannelsen i den israelske hær (IDF) blev i maj sendt til Østjerusalem. Turen var en del af IDF’s uddannelsesprogram, men arrangeret af den højreorienterede organisation Elad, som arbejder for at fremme andelen af jødiske indbyggere i byens arabiske kvarterer. Som en del af programmet blev eleverne kørt til Oliebjerget, hvor forskellige bosætterrabbinere holdt oplæg. Det beskriver den israelske avis Haaretz.

Ifølge avisen bruger Elad årligt fire millioner israelske shekels (godt seks millioner danske kroner, red.) på lederkurser til den israelske hær. Og det er investeringer som denne, der er en af årsagerne til, at stadig flere taler om en sammensmeltning mellem Israels militær og bosætterne på Vestbredden, forklarer lektor i historie ved Roskilde Universitet, Jakob Feldt.

»Siden 1960’erne har visse rabbinere på Vestbredden undervist i, at palæstinenserne var fjenden, og opfordret de unge bosættere til at foretage vandaliserende handlinger,« siger han, men påpeger, at hvor militæret og bosætterne tidligere ikke delte interesser, er de i dag vokset sammen.

»Mange militæraktiviteter ligger i bosættelserne, og der er sket en integrering af bosættelserne, som gør det svært at adskille dem fra militær og politik. De højrenationale regeringer har skabt en symbiose mellem militæret og den nationalreligiøse zionisme.«

Han bliver bakket op af professor i antropologi og direktør for Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (Den Israelske Komite Mod Nedrivning af Huse, red.) Jeff Halper.

»Når regeringen lader rabbinerne undervise i hæren, handler det om, at de gerne vil have, at soldaterne skal forstå bosætternes motiver, så de kan samarbejde. Sammenlignet med andre lande er den israelske hær ikke neutral, den er et redskab, regeringen bruger for at gennemføre sin politik på Vestbredden,« siger han.

A group of young men from officer training in the Israeli army (IDF) was in May sent to East Jerusalem. The trip was part of the IDF's training program, but organized by the right-wing Elad organization, which works to promote the proportion of Jewish residents in the city's Arab neighborhoods. As part of the program, students were taken to the Mount of

Olives, where different settler rabbis gave presentations. It describes the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

The newspaper describes how Elad uses four million Israeli shekels (just over six million Danish kroner, ed.) every year on management courses for the Israeli army. And it is an investment like this, which is one of the reasons why more and more talk about a merger between the Israeli military and settlers in the West Bank, explains Associate Professor of History at Roskilde University, James Feldt.

"Since the 1960s, some rabbis in the West Bank taught that the Palestinians were the enemy, and urged the young settlers to make vandaliserende actions," he says, but points out that the army and the settlers previously shared interests, they are today coalesced.

"Many military activities are in the settlements, and there has been an integration of the settlements, which makes it difficult to distinguish them from the military and politics. The right of national governments has created a symbiosis between the military and the national religious Zionism. "

He is backed by a professor of anthropology and director of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (the Israeli Committee Against Demolition of Houses, ed.) Jeff Halper.

"When the government lets the rabbis teach in the army, it's that they want the soldiers to understand the settlers' motives, so they can work together. Compared with other countries, the Israeli army is not neutral, it is a tool the government uses to implement its policies in the West Bank, "he said.

 

[P. Fembot]

Look. A lot of people in IDF is fucking scum. Loads of racist settler sympathizing scum that would love to see Palestinian dies.

Don't hold back, man.

 

[LNBL]

You gotta be honest though. It's an IDF filmed video. It's going to be narrated and shown in an way that puts IDF in a good light.

That's why they have an IDF channel. It's just propaganda in other words.

Look. A lot of people in IDF is fucking scum. Loads of racist settler sympathizing scum that would love to see Palestinian dies. Soul is one example. Theres loads of videos showing their... what should I call it... unprofessional behaviour. So many videos that it can't be brushed off as a single bad apple or two.

Can you post some sources on the evidence that Hamas actively uses civilian shields and such (other than IDF-channels of course) ?

I wouldn't be surprised it's true. I just want confirmation for myself.

And I think again we're running in circles. Instead of discussing why IDF is killing civilians, we must discuss the reason for the killings started. Why did this Operation "Protective Edge" start ?

Why is the Israeli Army attacking Gaza in this operation ? Did Hamas kill those 3 boys ?
Is there any proof for this ?

The only source that claims Hamas to be responsible is Netanyahu, while a hamas spokesman has denied their involvement witht he abduction and murder.

I have to say i'm doubtfull about their involvement and i'm more likely to think they are not. Where are the official investigation reports? It's too fishy for me to believe him and imo it's all just a smokescreen to hide what he really wants to get out of this new conflict.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Don't hold back, man.

The grown ups are discussing. If you want to add anything to the discussion feel free to do so. If you want to keep going with your drive-by posting style then also feel free to do so, just know that you're making yourself look like an ass.

And LNBL, yeah I'd imagine Hamas would be all to eager to prove their work in on killings of several Jews.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Skynews Arabia reports that a dispability service center in Gaza was hit last night resulting in death of two.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

If facts are propaganda then... Ok. Would you like to comment on anything in that video which could be untrue/ faked? Or is anything coming from Israel automatically a lie, or null and void?

Facts? Seriously? Ahahahahahahahaha.

Okay, by your logic, let's follow Hamas's twitter/facebook/press releases and take them verbatim. I'm sure you'll find no reason to not take their word whatever they say otherwise you're just assuming they're lying. It's not like either side has an agenda when it comes to media releases, or is it only the Palestinian side that can't be trusted?

Seriously, get your handlers to get you some better talking points.

The Israeli Deputy speaker of the Knesset posts on his Facebook page that called IDF murders.

https://www.facebook.com/JewishLeadership/posts/10152515953938058

How is this democratic?

It's not, which is why none of the Israeli defense squad posting here will acknowledge it in anyway.

Got admire all the bigoted posts their too. I'm sure they'll just be dismissed as a 'few bad apples' that are in no representative of the rest. Meanwhile, in the real world:

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.

A majority also explicitly favors discrimination against the state's Arab citizens, a survey shows.

. . .

The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children.

A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.

A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter - 24 percent - believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation."

Almost half - 47 percent - want part of Israel's Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority and 36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements.

Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here. Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

I would like to add something worthwhile to the discussion, but any imput from the outside is absolutely fruitless. International condemnation means nothing when the parties involved are entwined in a never-ending war that neither side wants to back out of in fear of one or the other losing territory. Admittadly, Israel is the dominant party here, but in their minds they are just as maganilized as Palestinians, so when you have two countries that think they have to fight or die, then there isn't a lot we -meaning those outside of the area- can do.

 

[Terra Firma]

I would like to add something worthwhile to the discussion, but any imput from the outside is absolutely fruitless. International condemnation means nothing when the parties involved are entwined in a never-ending war that neither side wants to back out of in fear of one or the other losing territory. Admittadly, Israel is the dominant party here, but in their minds they are just as maganilized as Palestinians, so when you have two countries that think they have to fight or do, then there isn;t a lot we -meaning those outside of the area- can do.

There is a major difference, though. Whenever the international community (i.e. the UN) has tried to do anything to the detriment of Israel, it has always been vetoed by the US. The same has not been the case for Palestinians.

 

[RustyNails]

I would like to add something worthwhile to the discussion, but any imput from the outside is absolutely fruitless. International condemnation means nothing when the parties involved are entwined in a never-ending war that neither side wants to back out of in fear of one or the other losing territory. Admittadly, Israel is the dominant party here, but in their minds they are just as maganilized as Palestinians, so when you have two countries that think they have to fight or do, then there isn;t a lot we -meaning those outside of the area- can do.

I doubt that. They have Air Force, Navy, tanks, heavy weaponry, state of the art armor and automatic weapons, sophisticated Missile defense systems, a full standing army with command and control, even nuclear capability, along with billions in our taxpayer money sent to them every year. Besides that, a complete and utter control of US Congress, western politicians and a highly biased mainstream media on their side. There is no way you can even presume to think you are marginalized. If you do, you should be in a mental asylum.

 

[mcflyOS]

Israel is the dominant party here, but in their minds they are just as maganilized as Palestinians, so when you have two countries that think they have to fight or die, then there isn't a lot we -meaning those outside of the area- can do.

It's amazing how many people believe Israel is the dominant party... they're surrounded by countries that don't recognize their existence, and who have invaded them on more than one occasion with the intent to dismantle their country, and have formed a bloc against them at the U.N. to constantly try to delegitimize them and sow hatred of them. There are 3 times more arabs in Egypt alone then there are Jews in the world... of course they feel vulnerable. Palestinians are arabs, it's how they've identified themselves for decades before the contrived "Palestinian" label was attached to them as though they were a distinct people from, say, Jordanians. Israel is the only Jewish state, whereas there are a dozen arab states, which vastly outnumber the Jews military. Israel has much more at stake, their right to self-determination as a people. Arabs have several states in which to live as a dominant majority (many states which bar Jews from being citizens at all). Let's put things into proper perspective.

 

[Terra Firma]

It's amazing how many people believe Israel is the dominant party... they're surrounded by countries that don't recognize their existence, and who have invaded them on more than one occasion with the intent to dismantle their country, and have formed a bloc against them at the U.N. to constantly try to delegitimize them and sow hatred of them. There are 3 times more arabs in Egypt alone then there are Jews in the world... of course they feel vulnerable. Palestinians are arabs, it's how they've identified themselves for decades before the contrived "Palestinian" label was attached to them as though they were a distinct people from, say, Jordanians. Israel is the only Jewish state, whereas there are a dozen arab states, which vastly outnumber the Jews military. Israel has much more at stake, their right to self-determination as a people. Arabs have several states in which to live as a dominant majority (many states which bar Jews from being citizens at all). Let's put things into proper perspective.

Utterly ridiculous. Israel has enough firepower to destroy the entire Arab world. And that's not even counting their nuclear capability.

What does there being "3 times more arabs in Egypt alone then there are Jews in the world" have to do with anything at all? That's like justifying that Jains be allowed to take out Hindus or Tibetans be allowed to take out the Chinese because they are a minority.

If "Palestinian" is a contrived label, then by your same idiotic logic, so is "Israel". You also just inferred that Israeli Arabs aren't really Israelis.

 

[RiZ III]

Calls in the Knesset to shut off electricity in Gaza so dialysis patients die. Also, bombing Gaza is actually good for the Gazans. Video in the article http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ialysis-patients-knesset-deputy-speaker-urges

 

[sindbadthesailor]

I doubt that. They have Air Force, Navy, tanks, heavy weaponry, state of the art armor and automatic weapons, sophisticated Missile defense systems, a full standing army with command and control, even nuclear capability, along with billions in our taxpayer money sent to them every year. Besides that, a complete and utter control of US Congress, western politicians and a highly biased mainstream media on their side. There is no way you can even presume to think you are marginalized. If you do, you should be in a mental asylum.

They do. It's the essential justification to carry out apartheid and the various bombings against Palestine.

And interesting article I found on the topic:

Israel’s problems are not a contemporary concern rather a bi-product of ‘deep-seated Jewish trauma’, the response to which was to arm itself to the teeth, become an incredibly aggressive country and sustaining the ‘myth of victimhood and goodness.’5 (Abarbanel, 2009)

Psychotherapist Avigail Abarbanel recognises Israel’s reaction to trauma - becoming heavily armed and decisively aggressive - as being a similar response as that by individuals who have been traumatised respond: becoming very powerful and intimidating, forming the capacity to never be hurt again.

Living with this reaction to trauma ‘perpetuates inner conflicts, leads to isolation and invites animosity from others.’ (Abarbanel, 2009)

Trauma ends up becoming part of the suffer’s identity and, in this case, through collective memory, the nation’s collective identity. Identity, the way someone deems they are defined, is unlikely to be changed and to have an identity based on the experience of trauma creates a world view that is mostly negative and totally uncompromising, becoming about ‘us and them.’

. . .

Ben Netanyahu, ‘a statesman who has built his career on being an alarmist.’ (Levy, 2012) has a consistent rhetoric against ‘those who seek to destroy Israel,’ the Prime Minister’s catchphrase: We are on the brink of another Holocaust16. Early in his political career he warned of yet provoked Palestinian terrorism17 and more recently has focussed on Iran: fear mongering through a relentless and repetitive narrative technique,
christening isolated or provoked incidents as trends.

This climate of fear, one disproportionate to the enemy’s capacity (Hamas) or intentions (Iran), is used for political gains. With many Israeli’s feeling they could find a better quality of life elsewhere and elections due, the end of 2012 required solidarity felt by Israelis at times of heightened security threats, such as the Nov 2012 operation, is a political tool.

Link to PDF article

 

[ramuh]

I don't see how any one side can just back down. Kinda like somebody needs to put the big boy pants on and say enough is enough. I don't know what it will take to end this current crisis.

Side question- Although improbable what if Israel announces they that at a current date at midnight they will stop all bombardment. And any time afterwards for every rocket fired at Israel, they fired a random artillery shell at a random location?

If anything I think Israel aim is to destroy enough where they have to worry about self-sustenance rather than rocket barrages.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

The tragic thing is that Israel wants take the heads of Hamas who are currently not in Gaza but in Qatar. Both Qatar and Israel has good relations why don't they reach an agreement regarding Hamas and stop killing the innocent in Gaza.

 

[Terra Firma]

The tragic thing is that Israel wants take the heads of Hamas who are currently not in Gaza but in Qatar. Both Qatar and Israel has good relations why don't they reach an agreement regarding Hamas and stop killing the innocent in Gaza.

The problem won't end with the removal of Hamas. What does Hamas have to do with the West Bank? Nothing. Why does Israel continue expansion in the West Bank? Because it can and the Palestinian Authority can't do anything about it.

Many of these Israeli apologists do submit that the settlements are illegal but that's the end of that. The fact is, the Israeli government continues to construct settlements, destroy homes, displace people from homes that they have lived in for centuries, take away their livelihood, and nothing happens in response because nothing can be done (save for violence). And with one side having the bulk of the firepower, even desperate violence is fruitless.

 

[mcflyOS]

Utterly ridiculous. Israel has enough firepower to destroy the entire Arab world. And that's not even counting their nuclear capability..

Well, it's interesting then that people like yourself claim they're ethnically cleansing Palestinians, when they're outpacing Jews in growth both inside and outside of Israel, but at the same time you acknowledge they could easily wipe out Gaza and the West Bank if they wanted to.

What does there being "3 times more arabs in Egypt alone then there are Jews in the world" have to do with anything at all? .

It has to do with their vulnerability in the region, and worldwide. That should've been obvious. It would be fair to say that Tibetans are more vulnerable than Han Chinese based merely on their population figures. Likewise Jains are much more vulnerable than Hindus.

If "Palestinian" is a contrived label, then by your same idiotic logic, so is "Israel".

There's no reason we can't be polite. I meant Palestinian as an ethnic group, not as a national identity, so in my comparison Palestinian = Jew, and not Palestinian = Israeli. Palestinians are ethnically Arab like the tens of millions of people surrounding Israel, which has a population of around 8 million, at least 1 million of which are arabs.

 

[MisterFalcon]

More excuses to justify why Israel uses an army to handle crimes rather than operate with swat teams and root out who they want.

Back in 2002, Israel sent troops into Jenin, two dozen of whom were killed by booby traps and snipers. Rather then praise them for putting their lives on the line the Palestinians screamed bloody murder and made claims of a huge massacre where hundreds, if not thousands were killed.

 

[RustyNails]

They do. It's the essential justification to carry out apartheid and the various bombings against Palestine.

And interesting article I found on the topic:



Link to PDF article

Yup. Netanyahu should be in a mental asylum.

 

[ramuh]

I don't know. I feel like this played right into Israeli hands with this whole situation. Using the pretext of three murdered Jewish Settlers (God rest there souls) and the retaliation of a beating of a Palestinian kid. And then the of course expected rocket barrage and leads to green pass on air strikes on targets they probably had long ago.

I sometimes wondering who is running the show over there in the Gaza. This isn't something that looks good for the Camera/news.The Israelis are using this to fulfill their objective goals, what about HAMAS. And with every rocket barrage it's equated to a military air strike, thus making it null and void in the international community.

 

[Ashes]

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

 

[Hyperactivity]

TBH this thread dismays me. If Mexico were shooting rockets into America daily, and were sending rockets to LA Airport, I'm sure the tone would be different.

I come to GAF for the gaming forum, pop my head into off-topic, and find hardcore anti-Israel views.

I'm not a huge fan of Israel but they do have a right to defend themselves. Do you want them to just sit there in their bomb shelters and take rockets from Hamas?

And to the people saying that there are no Israeli casualties, that's only because they have bomb shelters and an anti-missile defense system. Hamas are now firing at Ben Gurion Airport and telling the world not to fly in to Israel due to their attacks on the airport.

WTF are Israel meant to do?

Context
What is it?

Wasn't aware of it, no.
And now that I have checked it, it seems it was more of a move of detterence than actual practice.

When Israel did blow up entire sections of Gaza or Lebanon, they warned the cititizens beforehand, so they didn't exactly kill innocents on purpose.

I don't like that idea if it comes true, but so far I haven't seen it happening in many occurances.

I find it non ethical, unless it exists only to frighten the enemy, rather than to actually carry out.

Regarding the claims that every airstrike in Gaza is preceded with a sort of warning to the target area:

On Wednesday, one of our Observers in Tel Aviv described what it's like for residents living under the constant threat of rocket attacks. But for Palestinians living inside Gaza, our Observer says there are neither warning sirens nor shelters in which to hide.

There is no respite… the jets bomb us all day long and then the raids intensify as soon as night falls. Even right now as I am speaking to you, there are missiles falling not far from my house.

Here, there are no warning sirens. Only the noise of the F-16s warn us that the bombs are close… but we don’t have any bomb shelters anyway. Faced with the choice of being outside in the street or inside your house, you might as well stay at home.

I live in a 7th-floor apartment with my family in northern Gaza. I know that they say that it’s best to go to a lower level during an air raid, but the Israeli rockets are too strong for any precautions like that to actually make a difference. If a building is hit, it’s usually levelled.

We spend days shut up in our homes. We only go out when it is really necessary, like when we have to go look for food. Yesterday, I risked going to a zone where the electricity wasn’t cut off. The streets were empty and most of the shops were closed. The city showed no signs of life.

Because of all the air strikes happening at night, it’s impossible to sleep. We watch the bombs light up the Gaza sky and hope we're not the next target. It’s only at dawn that we manage to get a bit of sleep.

Israeli military authorities say that their strikes are targeted and that they are only bombing militants who belong to Hamas. Even if you believe that’s what the army is really trying to do, the population density [Editor's note: Gaza has the highest in the world with more than 4,000 residents/km²] means that it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties during these operations, especially when they take place close to refugee camps that are already overpopulated. Moreover, the leaders of Hamas and the al-Qassam brigades are not at home during the air raids. In the best case scenario, their houses are empty. In the worst case scenario, their wives and children are at home. In each case, it’s civilians, not militants, who are killed.

The Israeli army also says that it warns residents before launching a missile at a target. Ok, sometimes they do send out a warning missile before bombing a house or an apartment building but they don’t do it systematically and they give residents less than 15 seconds to hide themselves. Where can you go in such a small amount of time? When they do manage to get out, people stay outside, keeping to the sides of the streets. They wait for the end of the bombardment to go back home, to help their friends and family or, at the very least, to try and save a few possessions.

http://observers.france24.com/conten...helters-israel

If facts are propaganda then... Ok. Would you like to comment on anything in that video which could be untrue/ faked? Or is anything coming from Israel automatically a lie, or null and void?

Above quote is a perfect reason as to why one should be skeptical of an IDF video
Turns out entire story really wasnt being told there

 

[Terra Firma]

Well, it's interesting then that people like yourself claim they're ethnically cleansing Palestinians, when they're outpacing Jews in growth both inside and outside of Israel, but at the same time you acknowledge they could easily wipe out Gaza and the West Bank if they wanted to.

Don't put words in people's mouths.

And yes, Israel can easily wipe out Palestine. The only deterrent is the fact that even America would grow a conscience and not support it.

It has to do with their vulnerability in the region, and worldwide. That should've been obvious. It would be fair to say that Tibetans are more vulnerable than Han Chinese based merely on their population figures. Likewise Jains are much more vulnerable than Hindus.

So you're saying you're vulnerable if you have fewer numbers, regardless of the fact that you have a state of the art military?

There's no reason we can't be polite. I meant Palestinian as an ethnic group, not as a national identity, so in my comparison Palestinian = Jew, and not Palestinian = Israeli. Palestinians are ethnically Arab like the tens of millions of people surrounding Israel, which has a population of around 8 million, at least 1 million of which are arabs.

"Arab" is a panethnicity. That would be like saying that Russians, the Polish, the Ukrainians, the Estonians, etc. are all simply the same ethnicity because they are Slavs. A Palestinian Arab is distinct from a Gulf Arab, not just in dialect, but even culture. So, Palestinians are a group by themselves, without having to be grouped with Jordanians or the Lebanese.

Before the establishment of Israel, there were even Palestinian Jews. There are Yemeni Jews as well who do not identify as Israelis. There are even Arab Jews! So I don't see what exactly you're trying to get at by negating Palestinians as a people.

There are Jews in Israel as well who are closer culturally to their former Arab hosts than they are to the Israeli majority.

In the end, you're simply trying to say that Israel should get a blank cheque because it is the only Jewish state.

And I did not call your logic idiotic due to impoliteness.

 

[Terra Firma]

I don't know. I feel like this played right into Israeli hands with this whole situation. Using the pretext of three murdered Jewish Settlers (God rest there souls) and the retaliation of a beating of a Palestinian kid. And then the of course expected rocket barrage and leads to green pass on air strikes on targets they probably had long ago.

I sometimes wondering who is running the show over there in the Gaza. This isn't something that looks good for the Camera/news.The Israelis are using this to fulfill their objective goals, what about HAMAS. And with every rocket barrage it's equated to a military air strike, thus making it null and void in the international community.

The retaliation was the burning alive of a Palestinian kid, followed by a beating of his relative. The latter got more news coverage because he also happened to be American.