theignoramus
Member
I guess the dead nurse and two disabled kids didnt get the benefit of a pamphlet or warning call before they were bombed.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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I guess the dead nurse and two disabled kids didnt get the benefit of a pamphlet or warning call before they were bombed.
Classy how they keep shooting at the corpses and blast them to pieces just in case they were still a threat.
Because everyone in the middle east wants to die as a martyr, right?
The IDF did nothing different from the things you said Hamas is doing now.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-repo...as-human-shields-abusing-children-in-custody/
This article describes how IDF soldiers used children as a human shield when entering dangerous buildings. Amazingly a soldier that let a child search bags that he thought contained explosives was suspended for 3 meazly months. Don't act as if the IDF gives a shit about these civilian casualities.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I'm not trying to convince anyone that Israel is brilliant. Just that the notion that Israel bombs indiscriminately or that the civilian death toll in this conflict is especially high is nonsense, and that Hamas needs to be held accountable for not just failing to do what it can to reduce the number of civilian deaths but actively trying to increase it.
I can give you a long list of issues that piss me off about Israel policy, not least settlements. Its campaign in Gaza, to curtail terror attacks from a fundamentalist Islamist militarized organisation is not one of them though.
I am not an apologist. I am simply stating the dark realty behind people's idealized views on humanity
Not everyone. Just those affiliated with the hammas, jihad , el kaida and other such organizations. (edit: hint - there are quite a lot of those in the middle east)
There were a few incidents as there are during any war between any 2 countires. But the difference is that for hammas using civilians as a shield is the policy rather than an exception. The israeli soldier was arrested and got a trial. Hammas members doing the same get a medal.
Edit:
Another video from a Palestinian media agency:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=689144751162429
Have a source for that medal you are talking about? If you are using such claims, i'm expecting you can back it up with sources. Sources that are different from public perception of what Israeli civilians charactarize Hamas soldiers as.
Btw, would you say palestinian people that agree with the ideals and actions of Hamas fall under the affiliation you talked about? So not actually taling up arms an fighting but those who are supportive of them.
I was not claiming Hamas does not use Human shields, rather i was showing that IDF soldiers do the same. I don't care about the reasoning behind it, the act is carried out. Which puts them at an equal position of being horrible. So no, i don't want to make a difference in the way Hamas does it and how the IDF does it.
Winterfang
Banned
Thank you, seems like a couple of things missing. If it was the Israeli fanatics that burned the Palestinian boy, why did israel bomb the place?
Partial Gamification
Banned
Hard to say, a narrative purporting the intent to push the Arabs out of the Jewish State, or ["warehouse them" is spreading.]
I'm not putting these sources forward as unbiased, just illustrating how these actions are being read.
As revenge for those 3 teenagers that died, which Hamas denies any involvement with. Result is the exchange of rocket blows in these last days.
Of which the latest have hit a Palestinian mosque and a charity for disabled people.
They don't get an actual physical medal. They just get called heroes or martyrs if they die in the process.
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/4340.htm
Affiliation = actively supporting the Hammas. For example: storing rockets in their basements, going on the roof of a targeted weapon cache to protect it from a bombing, sending their kids to help "engineers" and train in making explosives.
I assume the majority of the aren't taking an active role in the Hammas. But there were elections in gaza and the Hammas won. That means most of the citizens do support them.
The citizens of gaza must take responsibility over themselves and their government. You cant vote for a terrorist organization and then pretend to be all innocent and claim to have no responsibility whatsoever when that organization starts a war.
I live in Israel and i am not aware of any such intents spreading.
Terra Firma
Banned
So you're saying Bin Laden and his way of thought is right? That when a country's leadership does something crappy, the citizens are at fault, right? This is the logic used by TERRORISTS when they don't agree with a country's government, i.e. the citizens are at fault for voting for the government.
Israel have just been reported hitting a disabled centre in gaza killing several patients.http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-bombs-hit-centre-disabled-gaza-201471274035753506.html
How the fuck is that self defense in any shape or form. This is state terrorism and there will never be peace until the palestinians are given their country back, at least to the 1967 borders.
How the fuck is that self defense in any shape or form. This is state terrorism and there will never be peace until the palestinians are given their country back, at least to the 1967 borders.
Partial Gamification
Banned
I'm not surprised.
ITT: GAFers trying to convince each other that one group of people at war are worse than the other group of people they are fighting.
How come every Isreal thread on GAF goes on like this? You would never see a thread about the USA in Afghanistan get this big. Hmmmmm... maybe religion is the reason.
How come every Isreal thread on GAF goes on like this? You would never see a thread about the USA in Afghanistan get this big. Hmmmmm... maybe religion is the reason.
Vivalaraza
Member
The two situations aren't even comparable.
What?
Go somewhere else with your agenda.
I am thankful for the discussions in this thread. I am thankful for the Israelis here in GAF. Even if I don't share their opnion, I am glad that they give us their sight on the state of things. I am thankful for every newsarticle that gets posted, that gets discussed and critized. People are suffering in this conclict. Israelis and palestians. It's important to watch this conclict.
Sorry for talking about a important current topic and not talking about your favorite topic.
Partial Gamification
Banned
In this post, a failure to comprehend the nuance is demonstrated by wide-sweeping generalization of the content. Its less about who is worse than accepting the relationship from a more objective point-of-view. The pissing contest over who is worse is the surface of this discussion and serves only to mask clearer reflection.
Religion is a vehicle for political aims. There are more Israelis on GAF than Afghans too.
Winterfang
Banned
I think I get it, would this turn into an war?
Are you suggesting that there is some sort of a hidden conspiracy in israel or that the palestinians mis-interpret israel's intentions due to how it is portrayed in the media?
BTW i see the reasons for this war quite differently:
3 Israeli kids were kidnapeed. The palestinian government in the west bank wan't going to search for them, so Israel did. Suspects were found, a photo of one of them was published in the Israeli media. Later the bodies of the kids were found and israel continued the search for the suspects.
A bunch of exterimist Israelis burned a plaestinian kid as revenge. Those Israelis were arrested (by israel).
So why the war? Something people seem not to be aware of is that there isn't a single palestinian government. There is the hammas in gaza and the fatah in the west bank. Hammas is currently trying to take over the west bank as well. A part of that is trying to get as much public support as possible.
Currently abu-mazen (fatah) is not acting against Israel and a lot of Palestinians aren't happy with it. So by firing rockets at Israel as a "revenge" for the murdered Palestinian kid the hammas is gaining followers in the west bank. They are trying to show the people that in contrast to abu mazen who is only talking (i.e. peace talks) and isn't doing anything , they are actively opposing Israel.
So for the Hammas it's a win-win situation. They get to bomb Israel and gain popularity.
Partial Gamification
Banned
Its a biased source so I would not be surprise if you didn't look for those sorts of opinions or that they were not common on your local media. Not conspiracy, just outside the usual information that you would likely come across.
So I was in Israel on a 10-day birthright trip, and was unfortunately in Tel Aviv the night the rockets launched. Was staying in a hostel and we were running into a bomb shelter when the sirens went off. Scariest time of my life.
Was lucky that was the last night of the trip and we headed to the airport the next morning when sirens went off again. Was a crazy experience, just though I'd share.
Was lucky that was the last night of the trip and we headed to the airport the next morning when sirens went off again. Was a crazy experience, just though I'd share.
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
Please excuse my ignorance towards this whole thing, but I don't know much about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict - but how does something like this go unnoticed? Why isn't anyone of power speaking up and doing something to hold Israel accountable?
Partial Gamification
Banned
They do bill it as a life-changing and exciting experience. Out of curiosity, do you feel there was any aspect of indoctrination involved with the trip?
Such opinions exist. But they are not common and aren't spreading.
What I am saying is if i am not coming across such opinions - those opinions are extremely rare.
The most extreme opinion that is somewhat common is what Bennet is saying - he wants all of the current settlements in the west bank to be part of the Israeli A territories.
It is noticed. It is a complicated issue. Western people are used to having army vs army wars. It's very different here.
There are no official Hammas military bases. The use civilian infrastructure. Lets say you know that there is an explosives manufacturing lab in the basement of a mosque or a charity organization.
What would you do? Just let them go on with it? Israel warns the people in the building watches it from a drone till it's evacuated and then bombs it. (you can see it in the 3 videos in my previous posts).
Unfortunately that doesn't always works and some civilians do get hurt.
Because Israel does not give a shit about UN statements or any opinion outsiders have. With statements like the one below i don't see a great outcome anytime soon:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-gaza-bombardment-pushing-death-toll-past-120
Those disabled people mist have had an terrifying plan against Israel up their sleeves, I mean he says he will strike down the terrorists right.
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
That's terrifying...
Can the UN not intervene? I've never paid close attention to international governing bodies, so I'm not familiar with how this all works. I wanted to get a better understanding.
Partial Gamification
Banned
You are confident that your perception is representative of global media? I'm not going to argue, just put it out there that we all have a view through a keyhole when it comes to the larger picture. Consider how the current actions by the IDF are what spread these sorts of ideas.
You already have a difference between Israeli media and Lebanese/ Palestinian media channels. Both present the conflicts in their own and from their own pov, which mostly simulates how the people in that country think about it too. Western media does not pay much attention to Palestinian deaths outside of the bigger conflicts like the one we have now. So I personally rely on media from the arab surounding countries for my news.
So what you're saying is that Israeli citizens should be fair game for Hamas since they voted in an government that oppresses Palestinians, steals their land and denies them statehood?
What a failure of a comparison. Since when is the US denying Afghanistan statehood and illegally settling on Afghani land? In fact, it's the opposite as the US is trying to play a positive role in integrating Afghanistan into the international community, opposite of what Israel is doing with Palestine. If the US started bombing Afghan cities in response to IEDs, you know damn well that they would be condemned.
Israel is on the wrong side of human rights, they're on the wrong side of reality and they're on the wrong side of history.
Please tell me this is sarcasm because this is fucking sickening. If Israel stopped stealing palestinian land and economically strangling the gaza strip then maybe people wouldn't turn to violence out of sheer desperation. They have no future there.
I have no idea what the global media thinks. So far it was usually pro Palestinian. (went as far as outright lies such as publishing syrian footage/photos as if it was from gaza). Looks like this time it is a lot more balanced.
I know what the people here think - and it's the first time i hear about "warehousing". There are extremists here as well, but they are very rare. The extreme ideas i hear about are quite different from what you proposed.
This is not sarcasm.
If Israel allows unrestricted import/export from gaza its going to turn into a terrorist center in a few months. They manage to smuggle enough explosives as it is.
Gaza should become and independent country. Israel withdrew from gaza in 2005. But instead of using it to improve their citizen's financial state the Palestinians used it to improve their weapon arsenal. Of course they don't have any money- they keep spending it on building labs and manufacturing weapons.
I wish there was an easy way to separate the 5% of hammas trouble makers and the 95% of the citizens that just want to live peacefuly. but i don't see it can be done.
Are you serious right now? I saw a report on this hospital after the bombing and I saw elderly people attached to life support machines in bed. Are these the people that want to destroy Israel? I'm having a hard time userstanding your post. Either you are sarcastic or you have really lost all touch with reality in this matter.
If it is a serious answer, then you make me sick.
Are you serious?
You can claim that about any civilian casualty in this conflict to legitimize their murder.
"Those babies were protecting a weapon cache with their bodies"
I've noticed that it's a pretty typical Israeli tactic. Every Palestinian killed so far has been colluding with Hamas in some way, shape or form according to Israel and its defenders, even babies and disabled people.
Partial Gamification
Banned
I'd go so far as to call what I linked biased and extreme but still a take on what is happening. I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. Love for everyone to just get along, stop fighting, and work for some common goals. I'm part-simpleton but the complications are largely from time plus compounding simple disagreements (if I can refer to land disputes as a simple disagreement without offending those with claims on the land).
I truly believe more livable spaces could be built for the common good of all peoples in Israel, if not the region, or the World.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Was Costia banned for that dumb comment about the disabled people actively protecting rockets? Just want to be sure
theignoramus
Member
what a demented point of view
Baki
Member
Israel doesn't want that. Israel doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians. If they had it their way, they would've ethnically cleansed the entire population already. Fortunately for the Palestinians, the international community would consider that a step slightly too far.
And despite what picture people in here are trying to paint. This isn't a war, this is a modern day apartheid. An illegal occupation.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
This is actually even more demented than Costia's comment.
Baki
Member
He's disgusting? Ha. You know what I find disgusting? The people responsible for the horrors we witnessed in that video. The continued occupation and oppression of the people in Palestine and the gross violation of human rights that continues to occur on a daily basis (rockets or no rockets).
But hey, you seem to be the authority on "disgusting".
And no it isn't a war. It's an occupation and a modern day apartheid. No amount of mental gymnastics will change that.
Btw, I call bullshit on your statement that all Israelis hate "this". Why else would they pull up chairs to watch the barrage of Gaza like a fucking light show and don't get me started on the signing of rockets.
You just compared my post to someone who said "those disabled people were protecting a weapon cache with their bodies".
You need to reflect on that for a second.
The reactions of Israeli that i've seen online about this topic have all een negative about Palestinian people, with really fucked up shit being said like just carpet bomb the whole region. Fortunately the members on Gaf are not so radical. You say te IDF cares about innocent lives, but actions speak louder than words and the news everymorning now is innocent lives being killed like the ones in this hospital. The reaction we get when questioning those attacks is the standard "they were human shields or hiding weapons"
The other dude went as far as to claim disabled and sick people where defending weapons with their bodies or whatever. I mean come on, seriously? Is that the logic now? That everyone has a reason to be killed there, while actually no evidence exists that support these claims. Mind you this attack was the 3rd one to hit this hospital over the years. Surely they would be smart enough not to keep placing them in the same place? Not to forget that it is FORBIDDEN to attack hospitals during wars.
Baki
Member
Don't bother. He's probably a drive by poster who thinks he's witty.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
This is very different case than the kind of crappy government decisions that lead the U.S. to invade Iraq. Do you believe the Bush administration would have been elected if they had previously announced plans to spend all that tax money on a military invasion instead of investing in education, infrastructure, creating jobs etc. inside the U.S.?
Because that would be a closer analog. Why is the Hamas party spending so much money on acquiring and building thousands of rockets, training militants and so on, and not spending money on (at the very least) building shelters for palestinian citizens for example?
Anybody following the news can see that Hamas' attacks on Israel aren't effective, not at killing/injuring Israeli citizens and not at creating a meaningful level of fear among Israelis either. And this has been the case for years. Yet Hamas keep spending so much of their already limited resources on this approach, even though any fool can see it achieves nothing. That's not the behavior of an incompetent government, it's the behavior of a government that has no regard whatsoever for the lives of its own citizens.
Hopefully there were other posts that caused him to be banned and were later deleted. I'd hate to think it's not understandable for someone to be a bit overly emotional when they're currently under rocket fire.
dripdripsplash
Member
Terrorist barely escapes justice. He was trying to hide too.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=633098233453333
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=633098233453333
jakonovski
Member
It strikes me as telling that the one place where israel has total control over arabs (gaza) is filled with complete misery, bombings and high death tolls. In west bank israel has less power and people are immediately better off for it.
Partial Gamification
Banned
A polite request to give a more descriptive summary of the linked videos. The "terrorist" is an infant in this video, buried under rubble.
I think he tried to be snarky.
Terrible thing tho. But my heart warmed up a bit, when the crowd started cheering after it was comfirmed, that the baby is alive and relatively well.
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