The Palestinian's don't want to live under apartheid, clearly they deserve death.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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The Palestinian's don't want to live under apartheid, clearly they deserve death.
Look at this thread for a cross-section of the apologists that can justify any military operation in Palestine, no matter how unrelenting and brutal.
Remember: you are NOT allowed to draw ANY comparisons between the siege of Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto. Why? No one knows. But all observe.
True, you have a point there. Like I said, I was of the mind that most people considered people's actions with full context of the situation before calling something they did evil.
I guess that is where the statement "necessary evil" comes to play.
Nevertheless, I do agree that this was a tragic incident that Israel needs to be held responsible, as well with all other incompetent actions.
Generally speaking:
I deem following rules of engagement to the letter to not be beneficial to one's war goals, but it can be argued that is why we have such rules. To not only protect innocents, but to make it so costly to the belligerents, that it would only be used as a last resort.
Reading this thread though, show how indecisive this conflict is. Everyone has a different outlook on it, ranging from Palestinians should do this and Israel should do that and plays into blame games.
Neither side will back down if each side believes the other to be in the wrong and should make the first step.
Richard Goldstone himself retracted that section of the report.
Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes
As I said before in earlier postings, I wasn't specifically responding to him based on this conflict.
It is immoral, yes. I am not on Israel's side when it comes to the conflict as a whole. I am against people claiming Israel does nothing to lower civilian casualties or even aim to increase it.
I do believe U.S should pressure Israel into serious negotiations and even working with U.N to force this change, I do believe Israel should go back to the 1967 borders (with creation of Palestinian state) and all settlements are illegal and should be dismantled, and I do believe Israel isn't trying to negotiate on serious terms.
There are enough people arguing this in this thread against Israel, I don't need to do so.
However I am also putting responsibility for those in power in Palestine as well. There are other methods besides U.N and U.S to get closer to their goal of a Palestinian state. Economic cooperation and social advancements is one of them. Violence do nothing to aide them. Those who claim that my suggestions are impossible, are not thinking about it honestly.
Economic cooperation between West Bank and Israel has only just been increasing. It isn't like it has been worked on for a long period. Sure it is a long term goal, but it is one that can work.
Wasn't the point of the ceasefire to you know... actually stop firing? IIRC the terms of the agreement were to be discussed in Egypt after the two sides stop attacking each other; the initial stage was a draft.
Whoever initially rejected the ceasefire seems to have done a u-turn, likely for this very reason.
JordanN
Banned
Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Nobody ever talks about that.
Israel also lets Gazans cross their border everyday but that puts Israel at risk of terror attacks.
And trying to justify terrorists from launching rockets at civilians? That's not desperate. Nobody has to put a rocket in Hamas hands and fire them at innocents.
Kenshin001
Member
It's not an Israeli excuse, it's an observation from an outside observer. But you can't seem to address the actual point, the reality of the situation. Posting pictures of dead kids isn't going to change anything. Hamas agreeing to a ceasefire would.
Ex-Prime minister of the Netherlands, Dries van Acht, has written an open letter to the current Prime minister Mark Rutte following the interview he gave on national TV about this conflict.
First of all, he calls the interview he gave a "horreur". He criticizes Rutte for "Not having any empathy for the immense suffering of the defenseless Palestinians". He further questions Rutte's remark about Hamas using people as human shields by shooting from schools and hospitals, according to him he has no proof of that.
The interviewer asked Rutte if the difference in deaths in Israel and Palestina was proportional
Here is the letter if anyone is interested in Google translating it for themselves: http://rightsforum.org/open-brief-dries-van-agt-aan-mark-rutte
He could have written this letter to any of the western world leaders that support Israel in this matter.
First of all, he calls the interview he gave a "horreur". He criticizes Rutte for "Not having any empathy for the immense suffering of the defenseless Palestinians". He further questions Rutte's remark about Hamas using people as human shields by shooting from schools and hospitals, according to him he has no proof of that.
The interviewer asked Rutte if the difference in deaths in Israel and Palestina was proportional
http://nos.nl/artikel/675637-van-agt-schrijft-rutte-over-gaza.html
Here is the letter if anyone is interested in Google translating it for themselves: http://rightsforum.org/open-brief-dries-van-agt-aan-mark-rutte
He could have written this letter to any of the western world leaders that support Israel in this matter.
Proportionality of a response is one thing; proportionality in the death toll is another.
Wars are not fought between equal sides. Israel's deaths have been relatively low in part due to the Iron Dome system, but mostly due to the system of shelters in Israeli cities. It can also be argued that since HAMAS's rockets are unguided, they are less likely to hit an area of greater population density. Gaza is very densely populated, which partially explains the higher death toll of Israeli airstrikes. (IIRC the rocket attacks could be considered to be warcrimes since they are unguided and launched towards cities, which are civilian targets. (In terms of function I get the impression that they share similarities to V1's and V2s, and no this is not a comparison to the Nazis' policies. )
(I also haven't attributed to this to HAMAS's tactics involving human shields, although there are issues with the Israelis targeting HAMAS leaders knowing full well that civilians are present).
Wars are not fought between equal sides. Israel's deaths have been relatively low in part due to the Iron Dome system, but mostly due to the system of shelters in Israeli cities. It can also be argued that since HAMAS's rockets are unguided, they are less likely to hit an area of greater population density. Gaza is very densely populated, which partially explains the higher death toll of Israeli airstrikes. (IIRC the rocket attacks could be considered to be warcrimes since they are unguided and launched towards cities, which are civilian targets. (In terms of function I get the impression that they share similarities to V1's and V2s, and no this is not a comparison to the Nazis' policies. )
(I also haven't attributed to this to HAMAS's tactics involving human shields, although there are issues with the Israelis targeting HAMAS leaders knowing full well that civilians are present).
What I said:
These rockets are perfectly capable of killing many people, it's just that
A. They aren't very accurate.
B. Israel is prepared.
I stick with my statement that "Proportionality of a response is one thing; proportionality in the death toll is another."
curlyfriski
Banned
Senior Israeli military figure says likelihood of Gaza ground invasion is "very high," according to The New York Times.
When did Hamas say they want peace?
Perhaps they want a ceasefire, on their terms of course, but not peace.
They are Islamic extremistd. They don't even pretend to want democracy, nor do they show mercy for their own people(See Hamas' slaughter of Fatah members in Gaza)
Sorry, but I don't trust them, and neither should anyone else.
And this is the worst case scenario that may come into fruition. A ground invasion would be costly to both sides; although I wonder if HAMAS can even take a beating like that when you consider their current condition.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
First time popping in this thread, but damn. This Pilgor guy is infuriating.
Desperate attempts at damage control in light of a group of kids being straight up fucking murdered for trying to run away.
Desperate attempts at damage control in light of a group of kids being straight up fucking murdered for trying to run away.
10 year truce, 10 year peace, call it what you want.
I'll quote Chichikov's earlier post for you again.
m_shortpants
Member
Israel is only targeting rockets right?
Oh. These kids were human shields then?
Sickening.
The reopening of the borders is unlikely to happen in the current situation; especially because Egypt has blocked most of the smuggling tunnels between Gaza and its border. Israel doesn't want HAMAS gaining their hands on any more rockets, which is part of the reason for why the border blockade was put in the first place.
And frankly, this implies that HAMAS would actually follow the deal. They don't exactly have a reputation for being trustworthy in that regard, but I'll be fair and say Israel isn't much better, if not worse.
A Black Falcon
Member
Reasonable? "Open the borders up so we can rearm fully, meaning more deaths and carnage when we inevitably break this truce at some point down the line" is not reasonable! Of course the blockade should end, but only after Hamas is either overthrown or gives up on their terrorist ways.
Indeed, the Israeli position apparently seems to be that the children were encouraged to play near a rocket-launching site. This sounds quite plausible to me, given how often Hamas is known to use human shields (ie, all the time).
m_shortpants
Member
So because Hamas has used human shields in the past, it's OK to bomb 4 kids who were very clearly not close to any other people or weapons. Stop being an apologist. This was murder.
They can sleep soundly tonight knowing that they are less likely to die of a rocket attack than a car accident.
But for real, what the fuck do you want them to do?
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not they have the right for an armed struggle against Israel, that's fine, we can have this discussion (not being sarcastic here, it's a serious and important discussion).
But as far as tactics, they're fighting Israel the only way they can, if they march themselves in the open they'll get killed, immediately.
Cringeworthy
Since you seem so invested in this thread, I'm really curious about something.
Where are you from and what is your religion?
Sorry for going off topic but I really want to know.
"Rearm fully".
You think they can build a military force that would rival Israel?
That's ridiculous.
Also, Israel is surrounded by "fully armed" countries that really don't like it, but they don't attack it, you know why? because they got a whole lot to lose.
There's very little to lose in Gaza right now.
And for real, you think you can bomb people into not hating you?
The only thing you'll get is more radicalization, you couldn't strike a deal with the PLO and you got Hamas. You won't strike a deal with Hamas and you'll get ISIS.
I had commented earlier (many pages back ), that the Palestinians are stuck between a rock and very hard place.
This New York Times article gives a fairly balanced view of the current situation while discussing the tragic death of the 4 boys on the beach earlier today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-beach-explosion-kills-children.html
This one family has suffered so much at the hands of Hamas and Israel.
This New York Times article gives a fairly balanced view of the current situation while discussing the tragic death of the 4 boys on the beach earlier today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-beach-explosion-kills-children.html
This one family has suffered so much at the hands of Hamas and Israel.
I don't see how that is related to anything, but the flag in my avatar should give you an indication of where i'm from.
Not sure if you read my post clearly or not. I'm critical of Israel here for killing kids. Euphemisms like collateral damage disgust me.
Civilian deaths are unacceptable anywhere.
That's not what he said at all. They don't need to rival Israel militarily, especially not in an conventional war, but if HAMAS returned to full strength they would be more effective in their attacks against Israel. Which would lead to more deaths on the Israeli side, and then lead to a even greater Israeli response.
Or maybe because these countries haven't seriously tried attacking Israel directly in years? And that Israel isn't exactly trying to pick a fight with its immediate neighbors (i.e. not Iran, that shit was silly) due to a slight improvement in relations, especially Egypt?
This is not Iraq, and we are not dealing with a common American conservative thought. Israel has spent the last few years trying hard to wear down HAMAS to the point at which they are no longer a threat to Israeli cities. They aren't bombing to give these guys freedom or to somehow gain a PR victory. They are claiming to act in self defense, not the twisted form of humanitarianism and WMDs that was used to justify Iraq 11 years back.
And your religion?
90% of all the posts you've ever made on GAF are in this thread.
Just saying...
Dude, stop.
Don't make pull the JIDF badge, it makes APKMetsfan sad.
You really think that if you rebuild Gaza, give them a half decent living they'll just go and say "fuck it, we can't really harm Israel, but we might get a few civilian casualties, yep, totally worth it"?
Again, we're not talking about a situation where they can get jets and tanks, and it's not like the blockade stop them from getting rockets.
But you know what, even if you think those are the level of hatred you're dealing with, you think bombings and blockades are going to make them hate you less?
p.s.
Not sure I get your argument about Israel's neighbors, like, why do you think Syria hadn't attacked Israel in years?
Why doesn't Iran shoot rockets on Israel?
They got nothing to gain and a whole lot to lose.
The Palestinians has nothing to lose and whole lot to gain.
Probably the dumbest post I read in this thread. How could you believe that?
But there's no such thing as self-defence when you're the aggressor. I'm so sick of hearing that justification taken seriously - as if Israel is just trying to go about its day. Until they stop lying to themselves, how can they expect Hamas to genuinely end their resistance?
What has his religion got to do with anything? You're playing a dangerous game, junior.
What is the reason you want to know, because I think you are looking into playing the religion card in association to my posts.
Really? You want to stoop that low? What difference would it make?
I really don't think anyone justified the killings of the boys.
EDIT: Unless folks were. I haven't followed every post.
Why? I was just curious.
Nah, im tired of arguements.
Zero difference. Like I said, I was just curious.
1. I'm not Israeli or pro-Israeli.
2. I haven't advocated any solutions or ideas to "fix the crisis", don't put words in my mouth figuratively.
3. Don't underestimate these rockets. Some of them are 1500kg monsters longer than some bigger cars. They are absolutely lethal; but they aren't very accurate.
Because Syria, even if you ignore the Civil War, has never been able to match Israel militarily? That's why they haven't gone to war in 30 years; just the occasional border skirmish.
Because they would fly over a few countries like Iraq, Jordan, Syria or Saudi Arabia. Iran didn't have the best of relations with these countries, especially before Saddam was removed from power. And because until recently, they didn't have the capability to do so.
They've got a whole lot to lose. Sanctions hurt, thousands of people die due to them indirectly due to faltering economies. Iran is not a warmongering nation, and they haven't been directly attacked by Israel in force.
Zaph
Prove that Israel is the aggressor. This incident escalated with the Israeli teenagers being kidnapped, and the whole war has been a general back and forth eye for an eye tragedy. To pin this on Israel as the aggressor is a bit much don't you think? You could otherwise argue that they have been disproportionate and/or more effective in their attacks, but I fail to see how they are single-handedly the aggressor as you are implying.
RustyNails
Member
Wow what the fuck dude.
I don't underestimate those missiles, but I think you're overestimating the risk they post to Israel.
Just look at what's going on right now.
And of course Syria don't attack Israel because it can't compete with military, you think that in 10 years of open a and internationally inspected borders Hamas would be able to?
That's ridiculous.
Hamas can't beat Israel, they know that, that's not going to change in 10 years.
ramuh
Member
Ya.. We can leave the personal stuff out of debates. Were all (mostly) level headed people who can hear a side and another side and debate that.
Shouldn't Gaza's beef be with Egypt? Since they clossed the Rataf (sp?) border down.
So because Israel has been defensively effective and/or lucky that a rocket didn't kill 10-20 of its citizens, they are automatically in the wrong? (In the wrong more than usual) That they should not retaliate? When rockets are launched cities are effectively shut down as everyone takes cover in buildings/shelters. This is not something you can exactly ignore.
This is the 2nd time on this page that you have completely misinterpreted the argument.
HAMAS, under no circumstances, would ever think of engaging Israel on a large scale conventional level like Syria or Egypt did in the past.
However, they can be quite effective in an insurgency/asymmetric warfare. At the moment they are not, due to better Israeli defenses and their own looming bankruptcy.
Israel (and Egypt) has made it very difficult for Hamas with the blockade.
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