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[LNBL]

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../First-Israeli-casualty-in-Gaza-conflict.html

May he rest in peace and receive more respect than the Palestinians are receiving from several posters in this thread.

Regime change and security.

With Hamas gone, Israel can stop spending money on Iron Dome rockets. There would be fewer terrorist attacks overall.

You think the Palestinians will just sit there and watch Israel do as they please? In reality that would ensure further escalation.

 

[jdouglas]

That intention does not excuse or bring back the 200 people that were killed, so take you excuses someplace else.

The intention was to condemn Hamas' actions, not excuse Israel's.

 

[artist]

It's pretty amazing Israel has shown so much restraint in a battleground full of civilians. They could have captured Gaza like any other country would. This also comes after 3 Israelis were kidnapped and murdered in Hebron.

Great spin.

Amazing Israel.
Restraint
Battleground full of civilians

Such buzzwords.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../First-Israeli-casualty-in-Gaza-conflict.html

May he rest in peace and receive more respect than the Palestinians are receiving from several posters in this thread.

Did that guy mocking the Palestinian woman's crying got banned?

 

[Chichikov]

When you're being shelled, you defend yourself. Any nation would do what Israel is if they were in its situation.

This round of escalation started as a reaction to the 3 murders in the west bank.
You think shelling Gaza is going to stop those type of things?
This mini-war will achieve nothing, just like the one before it.

Regime change and security.

With Hamas gone, Israel can stop spending money on Iron Dome rockets. There would be fewer terrorist attacks overall.

Again, the Palestinians tried the whole "sit quietly and do nothing" for 20 years.
They only got military rule and settlements.
And even from a practical perspective, you can't bomb people into hating you less, killing civilians (even if you think it's justified) will only radicalized them further.
When you couldn't strike a deal with the PLO, you got Hamas, if you won't strike a deal with Hamas, you'll get something like ISIS.

 

[LNBL]

Great spin.

Amazing Israel.
Restraint
Battleground full of civilians

Such buzzwords.

Did that guy mocking the Palestinian woman's crying got banned?

Pilgor? No. I'm sure he will return with more Pallywood videos soon though.

 

[A Black Falcon]

You would think this but you tend to forget the considerable amount of settlements in the Westbank as well as the shit ton of checkpoints one would have to go through in order to visit a relative in the town over. Sure there's no "blockade" but life isn't much better in the Westbank.

This is completely absurd! The thousands of people killed in the Gaza wars over the past decade or so and the huge amount of bombing are on a totally different level versus settlement activity in the West Bank. Not comparable at all. Saying that Israeli settlements are the same thing as a massive bombing campaign in response to a huge rocket attack campaign is completely ridiculous.

Also, of course, Israel gave up its Gaza settlements some years ago, in the hope that it would reduce tensions. It di nothing of the sort; tensions with Gaza since then have if anything gotten worse. This is a major case showing that abandoning settlements alone is NOT the answer and will get Israel nothing of value.

I mean, yes, I do think that reducing and limiting the scale of West Bank settlements -- that is, drawing a line which both sides agree to and Israel must stay behind, as they do in Gaza -- must be a part of any peace deal. But that's where it happens, as a part of a peace deal both sides agree to.

As for checkpoints, I'm sure those are a problem, but I'd think a peace deal might help there as well... and things are far worse in Gaza of course, because of the much worse government. The West Bank restrictions are tight at times I'm sure, but never nearly as bad as Gaza.

Journalists have been staying in the area since the beginning of the conflict, some came a few days ago. If there was any indication of activity by Hamas I'm sure one the the journalists in the area would have mentioned it already so it's clearly not the case.

http://america.aljazeera.com/blogs/...nkilledinartillerystrikeongazacityharbor.html

Just because they didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Hamas's attacks mostly come from populated areas, after all, in order to force Israel to either not attack, or attack civilian targets and cause more civilian casualties that many people who don't understand how bad Hamas is will react against.

This round of escalation started as a reaction to the 3 murders in the west bank.
You think shelling Gaza is going to stop those type of things?
This mini-war will achieve nothing, just like the one before it.

If it ends with the status quo again it will achieve nothing beyond improving Israeli security for a while until Hamas can manage to sneak in enough rockets to attack again, sure. But at this point who knows how it'll end.

 

[WonkyPanda]

This round of escalation started as a reaction to the 3 murders in the west bank.
You think shelling Gaza is going to stop those type of things?
This mini-war will achieve nothing, just like the one before it.


Again, the Palestinians tried the whole "sit quietly and do nothing" for 20 years.
They only got military rule and settlements.
And even from a practical perspective, you can't bomb people into hating you less, killing civilians (even if you think it's justified) will only radicalized them further.
When you couldn't strike a deal with the PLO, you got Hamas, if you won't strike a deal with Hamas, you'll get something like ISIS.

What's worse is groups, like the PIJ, are content with instigating further flareups that invariably pull Hamas into the issue. Israel, regardless of source, will blame Hamas. I can't fault them for that considering Hamas has the duty to quell insurgency that can lead to confrontations with the IDF.

 

[Terra Firma]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

 

[Yagharek]

Have you seen where these rockets are coming from? They're not exactly being launched away from where civilians live.

It's pretty amazing Israel has shown so much restraint in a battleground full of civilians. They could have captured Gaza like any other country would. This also comes after 3 Israelis were kidnapped and murdered in Hebron.

What about the Palestinian who was kidnapped and burned alive? How does that rate on your scale of restraint?

 

[m_shortpants]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

Agreed. 90% of the time they don't even address rebuttals to their points, and this thread ends up being the same thing page after page.

 

[nib95]

Regime change and security.

With Hamas gone, Israel can stop spending money on Iron Dome rockets. There would be fewer terrorist attacks overall.

You're living in a fairy tale land if you believe that to be true, at least whilst a brutal occupation and continued illegal aggressive expansions by Israel still exist.

Even if Hamas were toppled or destroyed, some other resistance would just take its place. People don't tend to sit around twirling their thumbs whilst under occupation, and whilst their homes are being destroyed, and their people continually displaced.

And neither would you.

 

[Razgreez]

The more I read this thread the more it seems like some sort of baton passing relay propaganda movement on the side of zionist supporters. Always reading from the same script and repeating the same phrases. As soon as one relents a bit another steps up to the plate. I'd almost be impressed by the level of coordination if I wasn't completely disgusted by the support of racist, aggressive oppression.

 

[Linkhero1]

This is completely absurd! The thousands of people killed in the Gaza wars over the past decade or so and the huge amount of bombing are on a totally different level versus settlement activity in the West Bank. Not comparable at all. Saying that Israeli settlements are the same thing as a massive bombing campaign in response to a huge rocket attack campaign is completely ridiculous.

Also, of course, Israel gave up its Gaza settlements some years ago, in the hope that it would reduce tensions. It di nothing of the sort; tensions with Gaza since then have if anything gotten worse. This is a major case showing that abandoning settlements alone is NOT the answer and will get Israel nothing of value.

I mean, yes, I do think that reducing and limiting the scale of West Bank settlements -- that is, drawing a line which both sides agree to and Israel must stay behind, as they do in Gaza -- must be a part of any peace deal. But that's where it happens, as a part of a peace deal both sides agree to.

As for checkpoints, I'm sure those are a problem, but I'd think a peace deal might help there as well... and things are far worse in Gaza of course, because of the much worse government. The West Bank restrictions are tight at times I'm sure, but never nearly as bad as Gaza.

I just want to point out that I'm not equating the two. Life isn't much better in Westbank and I know first hand. I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth as I did not equate the situation in Gaza to Westbank. Palestinians aren't firing rockets in the Westbank and what do they get? More checkpoints and settlement. Seems like a great trade off...If you think they're not oppressed because they aren't getting bombed to the stone age then you're clearly blind. Checkpoints alone are oppressing the people in the Westbank. I don't even want to get into discussing land being taken away and homes being demolished in order to expand settlements but yeah keep believing whatever you want.

Just because they didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Hamas's attacks mostly come from populated areas, after all, in order to force Israel to either not attack, or attack civilian targets and cause more civilian casualties that many people who don't understand how bad Hamas is will react against.

You're telling me since the beginning of the conflict journalists must have been oblivious to Hamas activity and rocket firing? Yeah sure...

 

[nib95]

The more I read this thread the more it seems like some sort of baton passing relay propaganda movement on the side of zionist supporters. Always reading from the same script and repeating the same phrases. As soon as one relents a bit another steps up to the plate. I'd almost be impressed by the level of coordination if I wasn't completely disgusted by the support of racist, aggressive oppression.

Not saying the people you're referring to are being paid, but these days the things in the following article are now reported to be happening, so you have to reserve an added element of caution.

Israel To Pay Students For Pro-Israeli Social Media Propaganda
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/3755782

 

[LNBL]

I just want to point out that I'm not equating the two. Life isn't much better in Westbank and I know first hand. I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth as I did not equate the situation in Gaza to Westbank. Palestinians aren't firing rockets in the Westbank and what do they get? More checkpoints and settlement. Seems like a great trade off...If you think they're not oppressed because they aren't getting bombed to the stone age then you're clearly blind. Checkpoints alone are oppressing the people in the Westbank. I don't even want to get into discussing land being taken away and homes being demolished in order to expand settlements but yeah keep believing whatever you want.


You're telling me since the beginning of the conflict journalists must have been oblivious to Hamas activity and rocket firing? Yeah sure...

Lets not forget that Palestinians get shot in the westbabk for shitty reasons. I posted articles and quotes from a israeli human rights group that stated Israeli were shooting Palestinians because those threw rocks at them and that Israeli soldiers pull off random house searches that results in shooting suspects.
The number of Palestinian deaths in 2013 in the westbank was Triple the amount that was killed in 2012.

 

[Chichikov]

If it ends with the status quo again it will achieve nothing beyond improving Israeli security for a while until Hamas can manage to sneak in enough rockets to attack again, sure. But at this point who knows how it'll end.

We can look at what all the previous mini-wars in Gaza had achieved.
We had quite a few of them already.

Let me give you a preview -
You'll get a deal eventually, pretty soon most likely, Israel would make some minor concessions, Hamas will agree to some empty security guarantees only meant so that Bibi can save face and you'll have a ceasefire. A ceasefire you could've agreed on before that shit started (but Israel doesn't talk to Hamas).
The ceasefire will be maintained more or less for a few weeks, a month or two if you're lucky.
Eventually there will be some isolated incident, maybe Israel will kill someone trying cross the border, maybe some splinter group in Gaza gets bored and decide to fire some mortars on Israel. Both sides will blame each other and we'll be back to the normal ritual of relatively small scale shelling of the south of Israel.
The Israeli government don't give a shit about those places so it will go on for a year or so, until the next mini-war.

 

[m_shortpants]

Not saying the people you're referring to are being paid, but these days the things in the following article are now reported to be happening, so you have to reserve an added element of caution.

Israel To Pay Students For Pro-Israeli Social Media Propaganda
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/3755782

The funny thing is that many of the apologists in this thread are juniors. Probably just a coincidence though.

 

[LNBL]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

You hit the nail on the head with this post.

 

[Linkhero1]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

All too true. It's gotten to the point where I feel as if I'm reading arguments put together by robots. Same old same old.

 

[nib95]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

Great post.

 

[Random17]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Not all of us are arguing from that perspective; e.g. I've been going over some of the issues with the cease fire and Israel's relations with other nations, not the specifics of an event or even whichever side is in the right or wrong. (I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what has been posted about the children, which was horrible).

 

[elhav]

I don't even know why there's a debate going on here. JordanN et al. will simply keep on repeating the same lines over and over again: Hamas is responsible for the dead civilians, Israel is right in whatever the hell they're doing regardless of how many civilians are killed. Hell, if all the Palestinians were wiped out, it would only be called collateral damage by the likes of them.

Look at all the posts in this thread. That is what it all comes down to (with an added hint of dehumanizing Palestinians/Arabs).

Chichikov and others:

Don't bother with reminding them that the Palestinians were peaceful for 20 years... I've seen you guys post this exact same thing to the exact same posters for the past few days, yet all these people have either anterograde amnesia when they're reading your posts or retrograde amnesia when they are typing their posts because they then come back with the same line about Palestinians being violent and Israel merely defending itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Operation


"Peaceful" for 20 years my ass.

Cut the bullshit.

If you folks want to argue over Israel building settlements in illegal places and condemning them for killing inoocent children and civilians, that's ok and deserves discussion, but don't try to make the Palestinian side look like everything was fine and dandy until the "evil" Israelis came and ruined the peace.
Don't make it seem like they always wanted peace, as if they always tried but Israel would never agree.

Stop demonizing one side, when both sides are responsible for terrible acts. Don't lie to make your points.

 

[maharg]

I mean, yes, I do think that reducing and limiting the scale of West Bank settlements -- that is, drawing a line which both sides agree to and Israel must stay behind, as they do in Gaza -- must be a part of any peace deal. But that's where it happens, as a part of a peace deal both sides agree to.

I want to address this, though judging from your posts I doubt it will be useful to you.

There is no excuse whatsoever for Israel to continue settlement expansion in either Gaza or the West Bank. The settlements are absolutely illegal under the fourth geneva convention. They are an act of aggression and they strangle any hope of EVER reaching a two-state result.

If you agree the settlements are wrong, but you argue that Israel has a right to continue expanding them while any Palestinians are still fighting against Israeli occupation, then you are literally arguing that the settlements are not just population transfer, but a violent, if not armed, form of aggression against the Palestinians. You are arguing that the settlements are a weapon in the war against Hamas (and before it the PLO, considered so reasonable now that it has no legitimacy or power).

And that is absolutely reprehensible. There is no acceptable reason for the settlements to continue, regardless of a truce with Hamas. They are fundamentally wrong and there is no justification for them no matter what Hamas does or does not do. It's a blatant double standard to demand that Hamas stop belligerency before talks can start while Israel continues to act belligerently with impunity.

 

[Chichikov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Operation


"Peaceful" for 20 years my ass.

Cut the bullshit.

If you folks want to argue over Israel building settlements in illegal places and condemning them for killing inoocent children and civilians, that's ok and deserves discussion, but don't try to make the Palestinian side look like everything was fine and dandy until the "evil" Israelis came and ruined the peace.
Don't make it seem like they always wanted peace, as if they always tried but Israel would never agree.

Stop demonizing one side, when both sides are responsible for terrible acts. Don't lie to make your points.

The west bank and Gaza were pretty damn quiet until the first Intifada.
And for real, you're making the case that international Palestinian terrorism is why Israel didn't grant them basic human rights?
That's ridiculously revisionist history, no one made that case at the time, the official Israeli stance was that there's no such thing as a Palestinians.

 

[speculawyer]

Ah religion. So good for mankind. :-/

 

[TarNaru33]

Ah religion. So good for mankind. :-/

Don't.... please don't. I would say this is more an ethnic issue than religious.

 

[elhav]

The west bank and Gaza were pretty damn quiet until the first Intifada.
And for real, you're making the case that international Palestinian terrorism is why Israel didn't grant them basic human rights?
That's ridiculously revisionist history, no one made that case at the time, the official Israeli stance was that there's no such thing as a Palestinians.

I was saying no such thing. You should reread my comment.

I was merely mocking the lie that the Palestinians were quiet when clearly they were not. Orginizations from Gaza and the west bank have been quite active in more than a few massacres and suicide bombings of innocent civilians.

Say what you will about Israel and its war crimes, but don't straight up lie and say Gaza and the west bank were "quiet".

 

[JordanN]

If no one wants the Palestinians to stop their attacks on Israeli civilian targets (schools, hospitals, daycares etc), can we admit Israel is 100% justified in being able to conduct war for defensive purposes, with Hamas bearing ultimate responsibility for damage (both in and out of Gaza)?

Otherwise, Palestinians or Israel's Army need to oust out Hamas and dismantle their rocket launchers.

 

[Chichikov]

I was saying no such thing. You should reread my comment.

I was merely mocking the lie that the Palestinians were quiet when clearly they were not. Orginizations from Gaza and the west bank have been quite active in more than a few massacres and suicide bombings of innocent civilians.

Say what you will about Israel and its war crimes, but don't straight up lie and say Gaza and the west bank were "quiet".

I'm mocking your historical knowledge.
The first suicide attack was in 1989, and neither the people from Gaza nor the West Bank did "massacres" before the first Intifada.
PLO started executing terrorist attack in the 70s within the green line, but was done by people infiltrating the country, usually from Lebanon, not by the people of the west bank on Gaza, which once again, sat quietly and peacefully for the first 20 years of the occupation.

If Palestinians have a right to blow up Israeli schools, hospitals, daycares etc, can we admit Israel is 100% justified in going to war each time, with Hamas bearing responsibility for damage (both in and out of Gaza)? That's what I want to hear.

Otherwise, Palestinians need to oust out Hamas and turn in their rocket launchers.

What the fuck are you talking about?
Israel has no right to keep millions of people without basic human rights.
Even if some people of the same ethnic background are committing terrible crimes.

 

[m_shortpants]

If Palestinians have a right to blow up Israeli schools, hospitals, daycares etc, can we admit Israel is 100% justified in going to war each time, with Hamas bearing responsibility for damage? That's what I want to hear.

Otherwise, Palestinians need to oust out Hamas and turn in their rocket launchers.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Hamas blew up schools, hospitals, and daycares to provoke this current altercation?

I honestly don't see what you're responding to or what point you're tying to make. It's as if the script has gone haywire in confusion.

 

[elhav]

If Palestinians have a right to blow up Israeli schools, hospitals, daycares etc, can we admit Israel is 100% justified in going to war each time, with Hamas bearing responsibility for damage? That's what I want to hear.

Otherwise, Palestinians need to oust out Hamas and turn in their rocket launchers.

The citizens can't really take out Hamas so easily. Being a terrorist orginization, they will use terror against those who will oppose them.

Many palestinians do not wish Hamas to stay as leaders, but they are not in the position to take control.

At the time of the elections in Gaza Hamas promised it would try to make more peaceful acts and try to end the conflict. Hamas were known to be terrorists back at the first and second intifadda, and yet they were chosen.

Now the Palestinians aren't happy with the Hamas at all, and are beginning to hate the orginization more and more. IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza and Hamas' lack of desire for a cease fire has brought up negativity towards it.

I'm not sure what the Palestinians can do to make their situation better.

 

[Chichikov]

The citizens can't really take out Hamas so easily. Being a terrorist orginization, they will use terror against those who will oppose them.

Many palestinians do not wish Hamas to stay as leaders, but they are not in the position to take control.

At the time of the elections in Gaza Hamas promised it would try to make more peaceful acts and try to end the conflict. Hamas were known to be terrorists back at the first and second intifadda, and yet they were chosen.

Now the Palestinians aren't happy with the Hamas at all, and are beginning to hate the orginization more and more. IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza and Hamas' lack of desire for a cease fire has brought up negativity towards it.

I'm not sure what the Palestinians can do to make their situation better.

This will only further radicalize the people of Gaza.
Just like terror attacks in Israel don't strengthen the left.

 

[JordanN]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Hamas blew up schools, hospitals, and daycares to provoke this current altercation?

I honestly don't see what you're responding to or what point you're tying to make. It's as if the script has gone haywire in confusion.

I posted before Israel needs to remove Hamas and ban weapons in Gaza but some of you didn't want that (because of "resistance" or whatever).

As long as Hamas continues to exist, they will attack those places.

The rocket that hit Ashkelon the other day manage to damage a Child's Health clinic.

What the fuck are you talking about?
Israel has no right to keep millions of people without basic human rights.
Even if some people of the same ethnic background are committing terrible crimes.

I didn't say that. I'm saying Israel has a right to defend themselves if Palestinians are attacking them.

 

[TarNaru33]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Hamas blew up schools, hospitals, and daycares to provoke this current altercation?

I honestly don't see what you're responding to or what point you're tying to make. It's as if the script has gone haywire in confusion.

They don't need to actually blow up these buildings, firing rockets into Israel is still a provocation. As such, Israel is full within their rights to defense.

This is the point he is making.

 

[elhav]

I'm mocking your historical knowledge.
The first suicide attack was in 1989, and neither the people from Gaza nor the West Bank did "massacres" before the first Intifada.
PLO started executing terrorist attack in the 70s within the green line, but was done by people infiltrating the country, usually from Lebanon, not by the people of the west bank on Gaza, which once again, sat quietly and peacefully for the first 20 years of the occupation.

The fact that their headquarters was in Lebanon doesn't make them any less Palestinian.
Yasser Arrafat was the head of the orginization, which got a fucking noble price for peace! While being a head of a terrorist orginization. The members of this group were palestinians that came from parts in Israel and Gaza, so it doesn't change the fact Palestinians were still part of these acts.

 

[Chichikov]

I didn't say that. I'm saying Israel has a right to defend themselves if Palestinians are attacking them.

The right to defend themselves does not mean they have the right to do everything.
Like, a Dresden style firebombing of Gaza would not be okay, right?

The current round of escalation started in retaliation to the murder of the 3 in the west bank, you think what Israel is doing now in Gaza is going to prevent future murder attempts in the west bank?
This is a punitive mini-war that will achieve nothing long term, like the one before it and the one after it, Israel has been doing these mini-wars for a while now.

p.s.
Funny how you always keep mentioning Israel's "right to defend itself" but completely ignore the Palestinians rights that are being denied, and their right to fight for them.

The fact that their headquarters was in Lebanon doesn't make them any less Palestinian.
Yasser Arrafat was the head of the orginization, which got a fucking noble price for peace! While being a head of a terrorist orginization. The members of this group were palestinians that came from parts in Israel and Gaza, so it doesn't change the fact Palestinians were still part of these acts.

So your argument is that Israel denied them basic human rights for 20 years, kept them under military occupation and built the settlement because someone of their own ethnicity but not of their country committed crimes?
That's ridiculous.
And again, revisionist history.
Israel did not made that case at the time.

 

[m_shortpants]

The right to defend themselves does not mean they have the right to do everything.
Like, a Dresden style firebombing of Gaza would not be okay, right?

The current round of escalation started in retaliation to the murder of the 3 in the west bank, you think what Israel is doing now in Gaza is going to prevent future murder attempts in the west bank?
This is a punitive mini-war that will achieve nothing long term, like the one before it and the one after it, Israel has been doing these mini-wars for a while now.

p.s.
Funny how you always keep mentioning Israel's "right to defend itself" but completely ignore the Palestinians rights that are being denied, and their right to fight for them.

No silly, the Palestinians are supposed to accept the occupation and live in peace despite the sieges, settlements, and denial of human rights.

"No people would accept rockets fired upon their country". Fine. But no people would fucking accept living in the conditions mentioned above either.

 

[JordanN]

The right to defend themselves does not mean they have the right to do everything.
Like, a Dresden style firebombing of Gaza would not be okay, right?

That's off topic. I only said Israel should have the right to defend themselves from terror attacks. This statement only reflects legal actions.

The current round of escalation started in retaliation to the murder of the 3 in the west bank, you think what Israel is doing now in Gaza is going to prevent future murder attempts in the west bank?
This is a punitive mini-war that will achieve nothing long term, like the one before it and the one after it, Israel has been doing these mini-wars for a while now.

Israel says the murderers are affiliated with Hamas. Of course removing the source of confrontation will prevent future kidnap/murders from happening.

p.s.
Funny how you always keep mentioning Israel's "right to defend itself" but completely ignore the Palestinians rights that are being denied, and their right to fight for them.

We have to draw a line if Palestinians can bomb Israeli civilians without consequence.

 

[squidyj]

If Palestinians have a right to blow up Israeli schools, hospitals, daycares etc, can we admit Israel is 100% justified in going to war each time, with Hamas bearing responsibility for damage (both in and out of Gaza)?

Otherwise, Palestinians need to oust out Hamas and turn in their rocket launchers.

is your mind shaped like a pretzel?

 

[elhav]

The right to defend themselves does not mean they have the right to do everything.
Like, a Dresden style firebombing of Gaza would not be okay, right?

The current round of escalation started in retaliation to the murder of the 3 in the west bank, you think what Israel is doing now in Gaza is going to prevent future murder attempts in the west bank?
This is a punitive mini-war that will achieve nothing long term, like the one before it and the one after it, Israel has been doing these mini-wars for a while now.

p.s.
Funny how you always keep mentioning Israel's "right to defend itself" but completely ignore the Palestinians rights that are being denied, and their right to fight for them.

Err Hamas aren't exactly fighting for rights....They are fighting because they want Israel in its entirety. They admitted it, and they don't really care where they are shooting.

The Palestinians themselves want peace, I'm sure of that, but you have to draw a line where the Palestinians are, and where Hamas is.

Hamas is a group of terrorists that run within Gaza and "speaks" in the name of the people. Abu mazen is the head of the Palestinian state, yet he has no control over Hamas. The people themselves aren't the ones fighting, but actually it's Hamas with its extreme Islamic ideas and rationality that is a big part of why this conflict won't end.

Mind you, the Palestinians in Gaza did choose Hamas as their leaders, only to understand how foolish a move that was years later.

 

[m_shortpants]

I posted before Israel needs to remove Hamas and ban weapons in Gaza but some of you didn't want that (because of "resistance" or whatever).

As long as Hamas continues to exist, they will attack those places.

The rocket that hit Ashkelon the other day manage to damage a Child's Health clinic.




I didn't say that. I'm saying Israel has a right to defend themselves if Palestinians are attacking them.

And a Israeli shelling killed 4 8-11 year old kids on a beach today. And a few days ago Israel blew up a disabled people's shelter, killing two, because there was a "suspected militant" there. And even if there was a militant there, you don't blow up the entire fucking building. That's collective punishment. That isn't how you carry out justice.

Maybe you need to look at how this altercation started again.

3 israeli teenagers kidnapped/killed
Israel claims it was Hamas with no proof presented, kills 17 people, arrests 400, and demolishes homes as punishment (is that how the judicial system works in Israel?)
Palestinian teenager burned alive
Hamas fires rockets
Israel starts bombing Gaza, killing over 200 people, 70% of whom are civilians, destroying vital infrastructure and setting the entire population back a few years

Sounds like collective punishment to me.

 

[JordanN]

And a Israeli shelling killed 4 8-11 year old kids on a beach today. And a few days ago Israel blew up a disabled people's shelter, killing two, because there was a "suspected militant" there. And even if there was a militant there, you don't blow up the entire fucking building. That's collective punishment. That isn't how you carry out justice.

Israel doesn't want to bomb those places nor is that their objective (they've stated they're sorry for any civilian casualty). They only want to take out Hamas.

This is what I need you guys to answer yes or no to. Can Israel defend themselves against Hamas and Hamas must accept responsibility for the war?

 

[elhav]

So your argument is that Israel denied them basic human rights for 20 years, kept them under military occupation and built the settlement because someone of their own ethnicity but not of their country committed crimes?
That's ridiculous.
And again, revisionist history.
Israel did not made that case at the time.

Being a Palestinian is not an ethnic definition, but being part of the people who call themselves Plaestinians. They defined themselves as Palestinians, and carried out terror acts in the name of the people living in the west bank and Gaza, while many of them did come from these places(Like Araffat himself for example). They did not represent Lebanon as much as they did Gaza and the West bank.

And I did not say that Israel denied them basic human rights because of that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I merely explained that the Palestinians, both Israeli and from other countries, also commited terrible acts in that time of "peace" you mentioned, and that's all there is to it.

 

[m_shortpants]

Israel doesn't want to bomb those places nor is that their objective (they've stated they're sorry for any civilian casualty). They only want to take out Hamas.

This is what I need you guys to answer yes or no to. Can Israel defend themselves against Hamas and Hamas must accept responsibility for the war?

It's not black and white like you're making it out to be. Look at the series of events that led up to this as posted above. Both sides share responsibility, but the initial cause was the reaction to the murders of the teenagers, especially because no one even knows if Hamas fucking did it or not and no proof has been given.

 

[Chichikov]

Err Hamas aren't exactly fighting for rights....They are fighting because they want Israel in its entirety. They admitted it, and they don't really care where they are shooting.

The Palestinians themselves want peace, I'm sure of that, but you have to draw a line where the Palestinians are, and where Hamas is.

Hamas is a group of terrorists that run within Gaza and "speaks" in the name of the people. Abu mazen is the head of the Palestinian state, yet he has no control over Hamas. The people themselves aren't the ones fighting, but actually it's Hamas with its extreme Islamic ideas and rationality that is a big part of why this conflict won't end.

Mind you, the Palestinians in Gaza did choose Hamas as their leaders, only to understand how foolish a move that was years later.

Hamas are assholes, that for sure, but come one, those mini wars achieve fucking nothing.
Israel needs to talk to Hamas, it is possible to reach a truce, I the terms for the 10 years truce are reasonable and then work hard toward peace.
Yeah, it would've been easier to deal with Fatah, Israel had that chance, you keep bombing them for another decade and you'll have to deal with someone like ISIS.
You really think you can bomb someone into not hating you?

That's off topic. I only said Israel should have the right to defend themselves from terror attacks. This statement only reflects legal actions.

Israel is committing a whole lot of war crimes in Gaza.
The Hamas do as well.
I have no idea what's your point anymore (outside MUST DEFEND ISRAEL).

Israel says the murderers are affiliated with Hamas. Of course removing the source of confrontation will prevent future kidnap/murders from happening.

We have to draw a line if Palestinians can bomb Israeli civilians without consequence.

Really?
You think bombing Gaza is going to stop murder attempts?
Like, people would say, well, they killed enough babies, I'm done hating them.

And I'm not saying every tactic is justifiable, I would very much prefer international pressure and sanction to force Israel's hand than violence.
But when you denying someone basic human rights and you're denying any non-violent avenue to affect change, they will eventually resort to violence.
I don't like it, I don't think I would have done it personally (though you really can't know having your family killed would do to you) but shouting "OMG WHAT ANIMALS" would achieve nothing.
Outside maybe winning some HASBARA points.
That's what we're here for, no?

 

[JordanN]

It's not black and white like you're making it out to be. Look at the series of events that led up to this. Both sides share responsibility, but the initial cause was the reaction to the murders of the teenagers.

Why should Israel be blamed for defending themselves?

This is the point most of you are missing. Israel is acting defensively, Hamas is acting as aggressors. Israel wouldn't attack Gaza if it weren't for alleged Hamas operatives attacking Israeli citizens.

That's fact.

 

[freakzilla149]

Don't.... please don't. I would say this is more an ethnic issue than religious.

Of course, it's a religious issue. Religion is at the heart of it all, Jews throughout Europe were persecuted for their religion, they then went on to try to fulfil some religious ideal of going back to their homeland. Muslims and Jews both have a lot of claims of the religious sites in Palestine, why do you think the west bank is shaped just so that Israel has Jerusalem?

As always, religion is not the primary motivation but you cannot deny it's strong influence.

 

[Chichikov]

Being a Palestinian is not an ethnic definition, but being part of the people who call themselves Plaestinians. They defined themselves as Palestinians, and carried out terror acts in the name of the people living in the west bank and Gaza, while many of them did come from these places(Like Araffat himself for example). They did not represent Lebanon as much as they did Gaza and the West bank.

And I did not say that Israel denied them basic human rights because of that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I merely explained that the Palestinians, both Israeli and from other countries, also commited terrible acts in that time of "peace" you mentioned, and that's all there is to it.

Not sure exactly what you're arguing then.

The point that I was responding to is the idea that "if only they didn't resort to violence, they would've had a country", which doesn't really stand to scrutiny.

p.s.
Even the PLO, it took them about 20 years of sitting in refugee camps and getting shot by the IDF trying to go back to their homes for it to form.

 

[NEO0MJ]

You know, the point about how a lot of the people defending Israel are not only Juniors but also post semi-exclusively in this thread is pretty interesting...

Israel doesn't want to bomb those places nor is that their objective (they've stated they're sorry for any civilian casualty). They only want to take out Hamas.

And they're doing a terrible job at it. When over 75% of the people killed are civilians you have to rethink your approach. Really, you never see any other country in the world obliterate entire neighborhoods just to take out a criminal.

 

[m_shortpants]

Why should Israel be blamed for defending themselves?

This is the point most of you are missing. Israel is acting defensively, Hamas is acting as aggressors. Israel wouldn't attack Gaza if it weren't for alleged Hamas operatives attacking Israeli citizens.

That's fact.

The fuck? A madman killing three people isn't an act of war like you're making it out to be. An appropriate response would be to carry out an investigation and arrest the accused. Not arrest 400 people, kill 17, and demolish homes of the families of the accused.

And again, the word you used yourself is ALLEGED. We don't even know who did it.