Yup, especially Egypt closing the smuggling tunnels.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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What's you religion, country of ethnicity, language, what income bracket do you reside in and what is you political affiliation. I'm asking this because I can't make a reasonable argument in an internet forum and I need to find something to discredit you.
ProfessorMoran
Member
I'm not sure anyone can expect Hama's to "genuinely" do anything other than try to kill Israelis, they're a terrorist organization.
ramuh
Member
Oh thats right. Have anything to do with Israel shipping gas (from the Leviathan field) to Egypt's ports? I wonder if part of the deal is they get cut rate prices on the gas too.
Atheist, Israel, Hebrew.
And I didnt try to discredit anyone.
I'd go with all of the above. Israel in recent times has had surprisingly good relations with Egypt and Jordan, actually.
I'm not talking about who is in the wrong here, I'm talking about evaluating the level of risk that this 10 years ceasefire would pose to Israel, which I think is pretty low.
And yeah, Hamas can engage in an asymmetrical war, you're going to have to come reach a peace deal with the Palestinians.
A deal that benefits both Israel and Palestine so its in their interest to keep it.
10 years truce makes this much more likely.
Meant justifying Israel's actions(by making excuses for Israel). You yourself were doing so just a few posts ago, along with pretty much every Israel defender on this page.
Israel's actions are totally unjustifiable, no ifs and buts.
RustyNails
Member
PLO was a terrorist organization as well. Your point? (so was African National Congress).
All Hail C-Webb
Hailing from the Chill-Web
Why? Do we know the full story behind the picture?
Did the kids live or go to school close by? Where they friends? Were their parents with them? Was there somewhere else they should have been?
It sucks either way,but you can't rule out the possibility of Hama's being involved.
On a separate note, It seems like a lot of you have never been involved in a negotiation before. The stronger party doesn't have to make the big sacrifices.
I never said those killing were justified. I argued they were not intentional, i.e.
1. IDF sees 4 boys running along the beach and thought 'why not', let's kill some kids today
2. IDF did not do its due diligence to verify that the target was militants and instead fired upon 4 boys on a beach
Many gaffers were trying to argue the 1st point, I argued the 2nd point. I never denied it was tragic and devastating action. The IDF is responsible for the death of kids. In my mind their is a big difference between the 2 different scenarios above.
A Black Falcon
Member
Obviously the IDF thought that the site was a Hamas position. That's the only reason it would ever have been shelled. The only question is, were those children there by accident, or as human shields? Currently we don't know. Who knows if we ever will, given the uncertainties involved.
Why? Do we know the full story behind the picture?
Did the kids live or go to school close by? Where they friends? Were their parents with them? Was there somewhere else they should have been?
It sucks either way,but you can't rule out the possibility of Hama's being involved.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, there are a lot of questions here, and while it could be just an accident (in the wrong place at the wrong time and not listening to warnings), it's equally possible that it was not so accidental that they were there.
No answers here yet, but the Israeli ship was firing at what they thought was a Hamas militant position.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-beach-explosion-kills-children.html
Good point here for sure.
Of course they can't rival Israel, but they could have a lot more and more powerful rockets and weapons than they have! Their options are limited by the blockade, that's why it's there. The blockade is working at limiting Hamas's weapon stores, which is why it has continued.
Israel doesn't start these wars, they defend themselves when others attack them. Right now only Hamas is so dedicated to its antisemitic hatred that it continues attacking Israel. This would not be happening if Gaza had a different, less extreme government.
No, bombing people alone won't make them not hate you. There needs to be a political solution to end the constant Gaza wars, and this requires a government in charge of Gaza who either isn't Hamas, or isn't the Hamas we know and is instead more moderate like the PLO is. This is why there's talk about a possible land invasion.
Yeah, radicalization is definitely a huge problem, and it's not one only Israel is facing, as the success of ISIS shows. And yes, wars like this can make things worse -- but Hamas started this, not Israel. Hamas is a violent extremist organization, and they don't care about the safety of the Gazan population or they would not regularly start wars like this one. In fact of course, it's very much in Hamas' interest to have (Gazan) civilian casualties -- it gets a lot of negative press attention in the West, after all! Could help their cause based on the flawed "stop the bombing for humanitarian grounds" reasoning, particularly if we in the US stopped supporting Israel enough sometime... which, fortunately, we are not doing. (This reasoning is flawed because of what Hamas would do when given the chance, of course -- more rocket attacks, bombings, etc.)
There needs to be peace in that region, but you can't have it when one side, Hamas, wants to kill or destroy the other one. There are lots of barriers to peace -- even without Hamas there's no guarantee that a peace deal could be worked out between Israel and the PLO, particularly with Israel's current hard-right government, but there'd certainly be more of a chance than there is with Hamas in the picture; with them there really is no chance of peace long-term, I don't think. But a ground invasion might not work in getting rid of them either and would significantly increase civilian casualties, so as usual there are no good answers here... so sad. It's tragic that there still isn't peace. The Palestinians need to accept that Israel has a right to exist and will continue to exist, and Israel needs to agree to some border in the West Bank that everyone can live with and stop pushing forward with more and more settlements beyond the security wall. These things don't seem to be much closer to happening now than they were decades ago, sadly.
Hamas is the aggressor. They started this by shooting rockets at Israel and hoping that they'd kill civilians at random. Israel is exercising its rock-solid rights in international law to defend itself from attack. Hamas started the war and has responsibility for it happening; Israel defends itself from attack and tries to limit the damage to their country. Hamas does not issue warnings about where it is attacking with its rockets; Israel issues many warnings about when and where they are attacking. These are key points for international law, and Hamas has no legs to stand on legally -- they are in the wrong.
We getting somewhere at least... though 5 hours really isn't long for the people that will have to endure the bombardments for both sides.
The demands from HAMAS are too great for Israel to accept. They aren't going to give back the people and allow the weapons to return because that risks returning them to square one in their goal to reduce the threat to their citizens.
The risk is not low when you are dealing with HAMAS.
Da fuk? Do you really think that a strech of 360 km² of land can live with a permanent blocade?
What makes you think that a population of almost 2 million people have to live in a permanent state of siege?
Give me a break.
Fortunately this occurred in front of lots of journalists. If Hamas was even active in the area then you can bet your ass journalists would have seen something and mentioned something.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/w...counts-of-gaza-attack-that-killed-4-boys.html
In fact one of the journalists on the site was playing with them minutes before they were shelled.
https://twitter.com/AymanM/status/489417783814258689
You people make me sick. Yeah, sure every civilian death is orchestrated by Hamas. /sarcasm
better than nothing, but how much aid can you pull off in 5 hours :\
RustyNails
Member
Looks like the journalist is a little too invested in this. We must find out his religion.
The deal talk about international supervision of the ports.
Would they able to sneak weapons through that?
Possibly, but they're able to sneak weapons now.
Despite the blockade Hamas is able to continuously grow its military strength, what weapons do you think they're going to get that they're unable to get now?
Like, Hizballah can get pretty much whatever it wants, does it pose a serious existential risk to Israel?
ramuh
Member
Im sure the UN Aid agency that requested this amount of time have some sort of plan.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Its a
Freaking Beach!
Would journalists from western countries set up shop in that hotel next to the beach if Hamas rockets were there ?
Only one concession in the agreement. There are more, such as returning a number of prisoners.
Not nearly as many. HAMAS is going bankrupt; they can't even pay their own men. The blockade is strangling them financially.
Better rockets? Different types of munitions? More men?
What is the proper course of action for Israel? Tolerate people constantly peppering their borders with missles, even though they are far inferior to their own?
It seems like they just aim better than Hamas, and are showing restraint in their retaliation when you consider the fact that they have the military might to take on the entire middle east.
It seems like they just aim better than Hamas, and are showing restraint in their retaliation when you consider the fact that they have the military might to take on the entire middle east.
yes, 5 hours worth of a plan.
RustyNails
Member
Stop occupying the people and maybe they will stop throwing rockets?
The prisoners that were freed as part of the Gilad Shalit deal.
They were free two weeks ago, but now all of sudden releasing them is this terrible security risk to Israel?
Please.
And what make you think the blockade is working?
Israel had been trying it for a while and Hamas is only getting more rockets.
As for the better rockets, again, Hizballah is able to get pretty much whatever it wants, so?
Again, what type of threat do you think we're dealing here?
And for real, this is the middle east, everything is risky, but your'e saying "oh shit, there's a chance that if we lift the blockade (not for weapons though) they'll be able to smuggle better future super rockets that would destroy Israel, even though no other country in the region that really want to destroy Israel found a way to do that, yeah, too dangerous, let's keep this low level fighting for another decade, that totally make the Palestinians hate Israel less".
JordanN
Banned
IDF commented on the beach strikes
So yeah, stop this nonsense IDF doesn't care for human life.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544972,00.htmlYnet said:
So yeah, stop this nonsense IDF doesn't care for human life.
RustyNails
Member
I'd be actually disappointed if IDF did not say there was terror activity in the area.
223:1
Isreal totally JUSTIFIED.
By terror activities, do they mean shots on goals by the kids?Ynet said:
Likewise.
So they decided to shell the area without verifying their targets. Good on them lol...
Define "doesn't care".
I don't think it intentionally target kids as a matter of policy, but Israel has been doing these types of mini-wars for enough time to know that it's a statistical certainty that unarmed civilians and children would die.
They are concluding that whatever they think they'll get out of this (which I think will be nothing, but we'll see) is worth that price.
When you're advocating these type of action, you do the same.
That isn't how we determine who is justified in a conflict...
I mean...maybe...?
It seems like they're just looking for an excuse to kill Jews though.
If you face the considerable, killing-your-neighbor, hate some Muslims reserve for members of their own religion that simply worship differently than themselves, and put Jews into the picture, you can see how easy it would be to want to kill them.
...and 223:1 just proves the Israelis have superior technology.
Gemüsepizza
Member
I really wonder what's going on in your mind that makes you believe shit like this blindly. The IDF has killed 223 people. Over 70 percent of those were civilians. Yet you believe them when they are saying they "care for human life".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Wait, then the journalists that were staying in the hotel next to bomb site during this whole conflict must be protecting Hamas too. I mean if they have been staying there, surely they must seen rockets flying off a couple of meters away from them.
It's nonsense until an objective source tells us the real reason. Until then, ill trust the reports of the journalist that saw eerything transpire during and prior to the attacks. That is more credible than standard pr message the IDF just delivered.
A Black Falcon
Member
Hamas hasn't been able to get everything they want, though! The blockade keeps them from getting more and better weapons, like they want to get. It also restricts their income, which is good.
This sounds like the kind of argument people made against the blockade against Iraq in the '90s, before the Iraq War -- that we should end the blockade because civilians are dying while the leaders are doing fine. Of course, after the invasion (which I completely opposed by the way, incredibly stupid move of Bush II's), we saw clear proof that yes, the blockade did work -- Sadaam had no chemical or biological weapons, despite his desire to get them, and the blockade restrictions were why. The Iraq blockade succeeded at its goal of keeping Sadaam from getting the worst kinds of weapons again and restricted his military options, and the Gaza blockade is doing the same but maybe even more effectively because of how tight a blockade it is.
If the people of Gaza want the blockade to end, they should overthrow their terrorist government. The West Bank isn't being blockaded like Gaza is, after all, because it has a better government.
When you're being shelled, you defend yourself. Any nation would do what Israel is if they were in its situation.
They may not have known. Hamas hides stuff all over, after all...
JordanN
Banned
Gemüsepizza;121378981 said:
Have you seen where these rockets are coming from? They're not exactly being launched away from where civilians live.
It's pretty amazing Israel has shown so much restraint in a battleground full of civilians. They could have captured Gaza like any other country would. This also comes after 3 Israelis were kidnapped and murdered in Hebron.
In the current conflict? Only 1
RustyNails
Member
Yeah you're lumping Hamas with ISIS. That's not a good argument.
Hamas already said they are ready to recognize Israel for 67 borders, lifting of blockade and refugees. They even sent a letter to W. But it's your foregone conclusion that they're lying just to kill Jews. As soon as they get a nationhood, they will...start throwing their rudimentary rockets again but THIS TIME they're gonna wipe out the Jews!! And forsake all the hardwork of the last 60 years. So what's the point of even debating with someone who thinks the solution to the conflict is perpetuity.
The difference being Israel's intention is not to kill innocent people.
What? They are a terrorist organization that instigated the conflict. Several Arab, Muslim countries have cited them as such. Hamas is in no position to be making terms for a battle that they are losing, and started.
You would think this but you tend to forget the considerable amount of settlements in the Westbank as well as the shit ton of checkpoints one would have to go through in order to visit a relative in the town over. Sure there's no "blockade" but life isn't much better in the Westbank.
Journalists have been staying in the area since the beginning of the conflict, some came a few days ago. If there was any indication of activity by Hamas I'm sure one the the journalists in the area would have mentioned it already so it's clearly not the case.
http://america.aljazeera.com/blogs/...nkilledinartillerystrikeongazacityharbor.html
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Have you seen where these rockets are coming from? They're not exactly being launched away from where civilians live.
It's pretty amazing Israel has shown so much restraint. They could have captured Gaza like any other country would. This also comes after 3 Israelis were murdered in Hebron.
Why would they need to capture Gaza though? They're happy continually stealing land in the West Bank, and building settlements there instead. Not to mention they have near complete occupational control over both with respect to Palestinian air space, trade, ports, electricity, humanitarian aid, supplies, roads, blockades etc.
Not as much as desired, that is for sure. I guess they wanted to stop it for as long as they could.
That intention does not excuse or bring back the 200 people that were killed, so take you excuses someplace else.
RustyNails
Member
Good point.
JordanN
Banned
Regime change and security.
With Hamas gone, Israel can stop spending money on Iron Dome rockets. There would be fewer terrorist attacks overall.
m_shortpants
Member
Hamas is using the journalists as human shields. I guess that means if the journalists die it's all good too.
I can't wrap my head around this kind of justification like some of the people in this thread.
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