Whoa. She is not looked upon particularly highly... yeesh
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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland
- Thread starter DreamMachine
- Start date
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Whoa. She is not looked upon particularly highly... yeesh
New poll results will be released at midnight. It will be pretty exciting as it can swing in any direction at this point.
You know the liberals are in trouble when Charest is ready to make concessions regarding students :O. "La rue" isn't that scary anymore Johnny?
It will be fun to watch how people opinions are changing with the new poll and we'll be able to see if the National Post poll was right or in the wrong.
-I would be impressed if the PQ isn't down a few/many points. Marois didn't do great in the debates and had a bad streak this week where she flip flopped a lot. She should have released her financial plan way before. She did today and there isn't any deadly proposition in there. You have to wonder why she waited. David might also steal some of her votes. If she doesn't lose any point it would mean her current supporters will be with her no matter the blunders she make.
-I'm not sure what will happen with the liberals. Charest won all of the debates but not because of his program as he barely talked about it. He won by being aggressive and using every trick in his bag and even making up lies. Moreover there's still 70% of Quebecois that aren't satisfied with his governement. It will be insightful to see if he's losing support from lingusitic minorities as rumors from political analysts seem to imply so. The fact he's ready to make more concessions with students implies panic is setting in. We also had a liberal organizer asking liberal voters to vote for the CAQ this week because he thinks the liberals will lose...
-I would expect CAQ to get a boost. The party was going up in polls until the debate and their leader didn't commit any big mistake in the debates or during the week that would stop this rise. What might play against him is how he seems to hate unions and to be pro lockouts. This wasn't known before the debates.
You know the liberals are in trouble when Charest is ready to make concessions regarding students :O. "La rue" isn't that scary anymore Johnny?
It will be fun to watch how people opinions are changing with the new poll and we'll be able to see if the National Post poll was right or in the wrong.
-I would be impressed if the PQ isn't down a few/many points. Marois didn't do great in the debates and had a bad streak this week where she flip flopped a lot. She should have released her financial plan way before. She did today and there isn't any deadly proposition in there. You have to wonder why she waited. David might also steal some of her votes. If she doesn't lose any point it would mean her current supporters will be with her no matter the blunders she make.
-I'm not sure what will happen with the liberals. Charest won all of the debates but not because of his program as he barely talked about it. He won by being aggressive and using every trick in his bag and even making up lies. Moreover there's still 70% of Quebecois that aren't satisfied with his governement. It will be insightful to see if he's losing support from lingusitic minorities as rumors from political analysts seem to imply so. The fact he's ready to make more concessions with students implies panic is setting in. We also had a liberal organizer asking liberal voters to vote for the CAQ this week because he thinks the liberals will lose...
-I would expect CAQ to get a boost. The party was going up in polls until the debate and their leader didn't commit any big mistake in the debates or during the week that would stop this rise. What might play against him is how he seems to hate unions and to be pro lockouts. This wasn't known before the debates.
gutter_trash
Banned
Liberal voters are frowned upon and are usually the silent types who will pretend to be nationalistic with their nationalist buddies but in reality vote Liberal and not tell their friends/
add a few % on PLQ
add a few % on PLQ
Oh, that was known.
We did not know what would be the stretch of his iron hand though. He's scaring me at times, and I'm already voting for him. Wish he was a little more tactful.
And gutter, I believe at this point PLQ is all but a sinking ship. The silent types, as you say, most likely already jumped ship to CAQ. In fact, that's what I think we'll see in the upcoming poll ; a PLQ wasteland with an appropriate boost in CAQ support, possible even to see it tied with PQ.
But answer me frankly ; why do you want the PLQ back in power so badly? I understand not wanting sovereignty (so that eliminates a buckload of options)...but there's the CAQ that high-profiles liberals left and right are basically saying to abandon ship to CAQ to maximize the chances of PQ not winning. Considering sovereignty not winning seems to be your first priority...why PLQ?
I think it's more about the fact they have the money to hire people to call supporters and make them vote on election day. They are usually the party with the better organization to make their supporters vote.
Your logic could be applied to the two other party. I mean you could want to hide your allegiance in both cases too.
I'm more concerned about the fact he seems like an opportunist that adopt popular ideas for the sake of gaining points (like his Dr Barette saying he could have prevented the legionellosis issue in QC or the fact that his position isn't clear about independance on purpose). I really don't judge if people are pro or against union and so on but I'm not excited for all the restructurations and people he would fire to "improve" everything. I mean he kept saying it would be all retired people he wouldn't replace but I really doubt that there are only folks near their retirement in schoolboards, CLSC, at HQ and working for the government.
I don't think I'll be voting for any of the 3 big party anyway as all 3 seem to want to gain support by dividing people.
The results are in - and pretty much anything seems possible still. We still don't have a clearer idea what will happen (although it seems to confirm the recent Forum poll which put Liberals in the lead as a fluke)
PQ - 33%
CAQ - 28%
PLQ - 27%
QS - 7%
The polling firm (Léger Marketing) doesn't expect much change between now and election night, so barring any major event, they're expecting a minority PQ government.
Election night should be really interesting to follow!
Edit: A quick look at the last Léger poll from August 16 shows literally the same numbers, so the debates barely changed voters' opinion if at all.
Whoa it's almost equal for each party. It seems the PQ base is really loyal. I mean they have pretty much the same numbers and Marois was struggling this weak. It seems they will go for her no matter what.
Francophone voters :
PQ: 38%
CAQ: 31%
PLQ 18% (Yup the PLQ is in trouble)
QS 8%
DreamMachine
Member
RCMP, border agents can use torture-tainted information
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story...gency-information-torture.html#socialcomments
scary shit.
"The Conservative government has quietly given Canada's national police force and the federal border agency the authority to use and share information that was likely extracted through torture."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story...gency-information-torture.html#socialcomments
scary shit.
"The Conservative government has quietly given Canada's national police force and the federal border agency the authority to use and share information that was likely extracted through torture."
Ether_Snake
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The PQ is seeing some of the votes it had years ago taken by QS and ON. It adds up. And I don't agree that Marois struggled, I and many have found her to be really good in the debates. Look at what she went through last year, the media was saying she was doomed and that her party would elect someone else, and still managed to stay steady, gain support, and make room for better candidates. The PQ, whether you like them or not, has the best and most honest team of the three top parties. Those people have Quebecers at heart, not money.
CAQ are right-wingers, their plan for education is to blame teachers instead of taking their responsibilities to improve the system. They'll do teacher "screenings" to abstractly slap them with sanctions, which will automatically force the unions to defend them (rightly so), and then unions will be pointed at by the government as having to be broken down to fix the education system.
It's a big divide and conquer strategy where the government gets rid of its responsibilities to fight against state workers and unions.
They'll do the same with healthcare: ask doctors to see more patients, sanction them if they don't, unions step in, government blames the unions for being unable to give family a doctor in 12 months, and then the government attacks them again.
Why do you think his plan is based on 12 months instead of 4 years? To make sure it FAILS, so he can use the rest of his mandate to fight against unions.
They'll do the same with Hydro Quebec: they want to wipe almost 4000 positions. They want to make it inefficient and then find reasons to attack the unions again. Yet their original complaint was that construction projects costs often end up over budget. Getting rid of 4000 people won't change that at all, the firms that make that money are engineering firms. The same kind involved in the current construction scandals.
Ultimately, it's all about privatization. Just like the PLQ and the ADQ. Financed by Powercorp/Quebecor and other corporations. Lucien Bouchard is the CAQ's spiritual father.
That's the CAQ, they would make the Republicans proud.
Well, usually they pull sneaky tricks like not explicitly mentionning the question, or ommiting certain political parties from results.
Another thing they are known to purposefully make shitty presentations or graphics a la Fox News.
Just look at their infographic that will be printed in the most popular newspaper. Even though the whole thing should spotlight the fact that the PQ is in the lead, they frame the main part of the infographic on "Who would be your second choice?". Of course, Legault is the champion of second place, but at a glance, people who don't read the details will just see him win a poll and move on to the horoscope. Leger Marketing + Quebecor is really proof that the media can twist results to favor their horse in the race...
Ether_Snake
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Pretty much. Anglophones don't realize the war that has been fought against the pro-independence movement.
This is a GREAT documentary on the subject, it covers how the RCMP created fake terrorist attacks to put the movement under bad light. This isn't some "conspiracy" documentary, it's featuring ministers, university teachers, former police, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6r80cYTmSs&feature=player_embedded
Today it goes on, with money and influence. The CAQ, the ADQ, the PLQ fight the same battle. One that is against workers, against nationalization, against social benefits, against anything that benefits the population as a whole. Undermining Quebec's right to independence is key to the right-wingers, corporations, and the federal government.
Glad to see the PQ, QS, and ON managing to keep support anyway!
gutter_trash
Banned
9 years of peace has come to an end.
now we enter a new age of hatred, citizenry segregation, division and downfall.
In this age of global economic crisis, you fucked it up for us here where we were at peace.
Fuck this place
now we enter a new age of hatred, citizenry segregation, division and downfall.
In this age of global economic crisis, you fucked it up for us here where we were at peace.
Fuck this place
You do realize all you anglophones PLQ supporters just have to switch to CAQ to stop this, right?
It's only "coming to an end" because you make it so. You might not like some of their ideas, but as I said, if your absolute priority is to not see the PQ in power, it's the only road to take.
gutter_trash
Banned
I'm not an anglophone, I am an allohpone.. we have less rights than anglophones.
CAQ in opposition won't stop a PQ minority to extend Bill 101 to CEGEPs, they will allow it if comes to a vote
CAQ in opposition won't stop a PQ minority to extend Bill 101 to CEGEPs, they will allow it if comes to a vote
Ether_Snake
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I hope the PQ and QS and ON form a coalition if PQ is in the minority. Can't allow CAQ to go ahead with their destructive politics of division and attempts to destroy union rights and privatize everything.
PQ QS ON coalition would be the best thing ever. And it would set a precedent, which would ultimately favor QS and ON over the long term because people would be more reassured for vote for them if they can form a coalition. Also, it's better for sovereignty, since 3 parties that are center-left or left that are for independence VS two federalist right-wing parties clarifies what's at stake, and who is playing against the people's interests.
The more pro-independence parties are in the assembly, the better, even if it means fewer seats for the leading party. It's diversification, it was too easy to attack sovereignty with only one main pro-sovereignty party in the assembly, but no more!
PQ QS ON coalition would be the best thing ever. And it would set a precedent, which would ultimately favor QS and ON over the long term because people would be more reassured for vote for them if they can form a coalition. Also, it's better for sovereignty, since 3 parties that are center-left or left that are for independence VS two federalist right-wing parties clarifies what's at stake, and who is playing against the people's interests.
The more pro-independence parties are in the assembly, the better, even if it means fewer seats for the leading party. It's diversification, it was too easy to attack sovereignty with only one main pro-sovereignty party in the assembly, but no more!
SketchTheArtist
Member
Wow, yeah, that doesn't help. Thanks media.
Also, I'm beyond pissed at Marois for again scaring off Anglophones in her sovereignty messages. The PQ were never good at inclusion messages and it shows again.
Makes me sadder that Option Nationale doesn't have a bigger reach. Completely fell in love with Aussant's vision of a multi-cultural Quebec, his welcoming message. He didn't brandish laws left and right scaring off people to give munitions to both French and English extremists, but kept talking how the English community is an integral part of Quebec's history.
Doesn't help that PLQ keeps talking about a referendum has if it's a ghost from an old horror movie. ''Referendum killed my dog and raped my mother!'' Blargh.
Ether_Snake
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I wouldn't waste much thought on that. QS might have Khadir and Francoise David in the assembly, which will be a great victory for the left. Jean-Martin Aussant is ahead in the polls, so ON will hopefully have at least one seat. Ultimately, the more these two parties win seats, the more difficult it is to attack independence, and the better of each parties will come forward. ON's stance on the benefits of an independent Quebec for anglophones is not a foreign idea to PQ, he's just much better at articulating it and his party hasn't yet been a target by federalists.
Over time, this election will be a turning point in favor of independence if both QS and ON strengthen. And all of the pro-independence parties are center to left, so it will help to promote social justice and educate people on matters that are kept under wraps by the media monopolies.
Over time, this election will be a turning point in favor of independence if both QS and ON strengthen. And all of the pro-independence parties are center to left, so it will help to promote social justice and educate people on matters that are kept under wraps by the media monopolies.
SketchTheArtist
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
a decade of peace for the ethnic voter has come to an end.
now we enter an era of getting back to being treated like shit by the racist PQ
good job "progressives" you will elect ethno-fascists to power
SketchTheArtist
Member
They scare off closed-minded individuals who've been indoctrinated at a young age that sovereignty is kinda-like the Third-Reich; English-speaking people will get deported, everyone will speak French, the economy will crumble, no one will talk to Quebec, etc.
EDIT: A comedy group in the 80s did a parody of those that thought that laws like Bill 101 was a first step into a Nazi state.
The Fourth Reich (You can turn on the subtitles in the video player if you don't speak French.
gutter_trash
Banned
they want to extend Bill 101 (language law) to CEGEPs (junior college) what this mean is that Francophones and Allophones won't be allowed to go to English CEGEPs anymore.
they want start up a Quebec Citizenship (before the country) and require everyone to pass a test to obtain it (inlduing Canadians born in another province who now reside in Quebec)
they want create a law that bars people who don't speak French well to run for public office (city council, school-board, MNA). This is discriminatory towards the First Nations people and people who live in Anglo municipalities
Ether_Snake
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Bullshit Gutter_Trash, either you have no idea what you are talking about, or you are lying to yourself. Sorry for you either way.
Some of the PQ's team:
- Rachid Bandou, Algerian (former counselor at the Commission de la citoyenneté of the Bloc Québécois)
- Maka Kotto, Cameroonian
- Neko Likongo, don't know his origin
- Lizabel Corina Nitoi, Romanian
- Badiona Bazin, Haitian, former municipal candidate
- Djemila Benhabib, Algerian born in Ukraine. She is part of Pauline Marois' team working on a secularism chart, she was a finalist for the 2009 Governor General's Literary Awards for her non-fiction book Ma vie à contre-Coran: une femme témoigne sur les islamistes.
- Gabriel Arbieto Munayco, don't know his origin, youngest candidate after Leo Bureau-Blouin.
And recently in the news, Élaine Zakaïb, fighting against the extradition of a Portuguese father. Decision was reversed, he can now stay with his family and kids who were born here.
"Racist independentists!" is such a stupid blanket statement. Amir Khadir is the chief of Quebec Solidaire, or Iranian origin.
I could go on.
Some of the PQ's team:
- Rachid Bandou, Algerian (former counselor at the Commission de la citoyenneté of the Bloc Québécois)
- Maka Kotto, Cameroonian
- Neko Likongo, don't know his origin
- Lizabel Corina Nitoi, Romanian
- Badiona Bazin, Haitian, former municipal candidate
- Djemila Benhabib, Algerian born in Ukraine. She is part of Pauline Marois' team working on a secularism chart, she was a finalist for the 2009 Governor General's Literary Awards for her non-fiction book Ma vie à contre-Coran: une femme témoigne sur les islamistes.
- Gabriel Arbieto Munayco, don't know his origin, youngest candidate after Leo Bureau-Blouin.
And recently in the news, Élaine Zakaïb, fighting against the extradition of a Portuguese father. Decision was reversed, he can now stay with his family and kids who were born here.
"Racist independentists!" is such a stupid blanket statement. Amir Khadir is the chief of Quebec Solidaire, or Iranian origin.
I could go on.
This thread is a bit funny to read. It seems it will be the end of the world when your party doesn't win.
Interesting things to note if nothing changes :
-If Legault wins it will be without support from Montréal
-If Marois wins it will be without support from Québec
-If Charest wins it will be without support from regions and Québec
I would expect Legault to try to make a rallying cry to liberal voters as the PLQ seems in a more and more difficult position. And I would expect Marois to try to rally QS voters by being the best option to block Legaullt and Charest.
I have to agree with Kurdel about the JDeM and Québécor. They've been cheerleading for Legault for a while now. Apparently Jean Lapierre only meets people voting for CAQ in the streets.
EDIT : Élaine Zakaïb is a candidate in my riding :O
Interesting things to note if nothing changes :
-If Legault wins it will be without support from Montréal
-If Marois wins it will be without support from Québec
-If Charest wins it will be without support from regions and Québec
I would expect Legault to try to make a rallying cry to liberal voters as the PLQ seems in a more and more difficult position. And I would expect Marois to try to rally QS voters by being the best option to block Legaullt and Charest.
I have to agree with Kurdel about the JDeM and Québécor. They've been cheerleading for Legault for a while now. Apparently Jean Lapierre only meets people voting for CAQ in the streets.
EDIT : Élaine Zakaïb is a candidate in my riding :O
gutter_trash
Banned
Ether, before calling me a liar or a bullshiter, here is the PQ's stance on these three alarming issues that are clarified on the news.
http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/votre...985-loi-101-au-cegep-une-vision-alarmiste.php
they want to extend Bill 101 (language law) to CEGEPs (junior college) what this mean is that Francophones and Allophones won't be allowed to go to English CEGEPs anymore.
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http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/elections-2012/357532/le-pq-corrige-pauline-marois
they want start up a Quebec Citizenship (before the country) and require everyone to pass a test to obtain it (inlduing Canadians born in another province who now reside in Quebec)
----
http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/do...-exigera-des-elus-la-maitrise-du-francais.php
they want create a law that bars people who don't speak French well to run for public office (city council, school-board, MNA). This is discriminatory towards the First Nations people and people who live in Anglo municipalities
SketchTheArtist
Member
Don't forget the xenophobic rant from the mayor of Saguenay towards a member of PQ. He said ''Why would we let someone from another country dictates what we can and can't do. We can't even pronounce her name.'' He was supported by a couple of members from the PLQ and when Charest was asked if he condemned this closed-minded way of thinking in the first televised debate, he wouldn't answer.
Ether_Snake
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They always vote the opposite of whatever Montreal votes for. They are constantly voting conservative. Everyone voted NDP in the federal election except Quebec of course.
gutter_trash
Banned
Ether... the PQ wants to change these laws and create these new laws, it's in their program
you can link Federal results, you can list candidates born in Francophone African countries, you can list black Republicans running for the GOP
it doesn't change that fact that these are the laws that are part of their program that they wish to change.
you are just tying to drown me out with off topic posts without addressing these laws
http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/votre...985-loi-101-au-cegep-une-vision-alarmiste.php
they want to extend Bill 101 (language law) to CEGEPs (junior college) what this mean is that Francophones and Allophones won't be allowed to go to English CEGEPs anymore.
-------
http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/elections-2012/357532/le-pq-corrige-pauline-marois
they want start up a Quebec Citizenship (before the country) and require everyone to pass a test to obtain it (inlduing Canadians born in another province who now reside in Quebec)
----
http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/do...-exigera-des-elus-la-maitrise-du-francais.php
they want create a law that bars people who don't speak French well to run for public office (city council, school-board, MNA). This is discriminatory towards the First Nations people and people who live in Anglo municipalities
you can link Federal results, you can list candidates born in Francophone African countries, you can list black Republicans running for the GOP
it doesn't change that fact that these are the laws that are part of their program that they wish to change.
you are just tying to drown me out with off topic posts without addressing these laws
http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/votre...985-loi-101-au-cegep-une-vision-alarmiste.php
they want to extend Bill 101 (language law) to CEGEPs (junior college) what this mean is that Francophones and Allophones won't be allowed to go to English CEGEPs anymore.
-------
http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/elections-2012/357532/le-pq-corrige-pauline-marois
they want start up a Quebec Citizenship (before the country) and require everyone to pass a test to obtain it (inlduing Canadians born in another province who now reside in Quebec)
----
http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/do...-exigera-des-elus-la-maitrise-du-francais.php
they want create a law that bars people who don't speak French well to run for public office (city council, school-board, MNA). This is discriminatory towards the First Nations people and people who live in Anglo municipalities
Destroy union rights and privatize everything.
Really.
I think you're lacking a bit of hyperbole. I don't think you've put enough yet.
Well, we mostly have extremists in one spectrum or the other apparantly. Can't expect much.
I personally respect every party and convictions. No party is out there to voluntarily hurt Quebec and sell it to the black market. Each party just vehicles differents ways of tackling problems.
Ether_Snake, from all his posts, is a dedicated sovereignist. Do I agree with him? No. Do I respect his passion about the cause? Yes. But saying Legault would destroy unions? God. That's Republican-like style of blatant propaganda. But still, I respect his views.
I can also see why gutter_trash is fearful of PQ's policies. Do I agree with these policies? Depends ; every party has good ideas and bad ideas. Do I agree on the extend of these fears? No, because I don't think society would let some of them materialize.
If we could all just step down the partisanship to actually have discussion other than FUCK THE PQ NATIONALISTS or FUCK THE SLAVIST CAQ, that'd be great.
I am a seperatist, but I am not really a fan of the more hardline nationalism in the PQ program.
I don't mind english CEGEP, if the students still have to pass the required french exam to get the diploma. French is a really beautiful (and hard) language to master. I wanted to go to an english CEGEP because all throughout high school I struggled with french exams (english is my first language/easier than french). It's only when I got to the CEGEP level that I started to really appreciate French. The requirements to pass the final exam really pushes you to master the language, and is a personal badge of honour that I made it.
Had I just went into an english Cegep, I would not have the same appreciation of french litterature and the french language I have today. But that just my take on it. Preserving high standards for our language and recieving a general collegial formation in english are not two irreconciliable things IMO.
I will still vote for them, because I don't want to further devide the vote with the ON or the QS.
I don't mind english CEGEP, if the students still have to pass the required french exam to get the diploma. French is a really beautiful (and hard) language to master. I wanted to go to an english CEGEP because all throughout high school I struggled with french exams (english is my first language/easier than french). It's only when I got to the CEGEP level that I started to really appreciate French. The requirements to pass the final exam really pushes you to master the language, and is a personal badge of honour that I made it.
Had I just went into an english Cegep, I would not have the same appreciation of french litterature and the french language I have today. But that just my take on it. Preserving high standards for our language and recieving a general collegial formation in english are not two irreconciliable things IMO.
I will still vote for them, because I don't want to further devide the vote with the ON or the QS.
Ether_Snake
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I know nobody who has learned French and who has regretted it. There is nothing wrong with making sure that the french institutions we finance with our tax dollars are the ones used by francophones and allophones. What do you lose? Nothing. We don't want to pay for the "Anglicization" of the population when we are already trying to protect and grow the french language. The English institutions are there to make sure uni-lingual anglophones and foreign anglophones still have a chance to learn just like francophones, not to create a division of quality where people go to an English institution because it gets more funding or pays higher salaries to teachers or looks better on their CV.
As for the CAQ, YES their plan is to put the blame of the shortcomings of the education system on the back of the teachers, put in place teacher "ratings" (and school ratings), sanction teachers, get in a fight with the unions, etc. Maybe you don't want to accept that reality because that means the only non-rightwing parties are pro-independence, but that's how it is.
Same thing for healthcare, they'll tell the doctors to handle more patients, when they say already that they can't. 1 year later, Quebec families won't all have a family doctor as promised, and the CAQ will say it was because of the unions.
It's all clearly stated in their program and by Legault, he has been hammering against unions throughout the debates. It is a Republican-style government that seeks to dereponsabilize itself to put the blame on the workers and attack their representatives (unions and those who defend union rights).
They have no intention of improving anything, they want to bring down the services by applying reforms that will force unions to protect the workers, and get into a confrontation with them with the population's backings. And what for? Destroy union rights, create a bigger class divide, and benefit the private institutions. By the time he's done with his mandate, public school education will be worst off than ever as he will have spent his time attacking teachers for failing students instead of improving the system. The private schools won't go through this bullshit. Who will come out on top? And then you'll be willing to pay to send your kids to private school because of how bad the public system will be.
They want to eliminate 4000 places at Hydro Quebec, which will give the same results as in the transportation department, where we lost so much expertise that pretty much everything that should be done when it comes to project evaluation is done poorly, not done at all, or relegated to private institutions. And this was KEY to lead to major corruption problems emerging since a department with no resources can't keep track of what it is supposed to oversee.
Anyone who has paid attention to US politics can recognize the pattern.
Lucien Bouchard, Powercorp, Quebecor. All the same battle.
As for the CAQ, YES their plan is to put the blame of the shortcomings of the education system on the back of the teachers, put in place teacher "ratings" (and school ratings), sanction teachers, get in a fight with the unions, etc. Maybe you don't want to accept that reality because that means the only non-rightwing parties are pro-independence, but that's how it is.
Same thing for healthcare, they'll tell the doctors to handle more patients, when they say already that they can't. 1 year later, Quebec families won't all have a family doctor as promised, and the CAQ will say it was because of the unions.
It's all clearly stated in their program and by Legault, he has been hammering against unions throughout the debates. It is a Republican-style government that seeks to dereponsabilize itself to put the blame on the workers and attack their representatives (unions and those who defend union rights).
They have no intention of improving anything, they want to bring down the services by applying reforms that will force unions to protect the workers, and get into a confrontation with them with the population's backings. And what for? Destroy union rights, create a bigger class divide, and benefit the private institutions. By the time he's done with his mandate, public school education will be worst off than ever as he will have spent his time attacking teachers for failing students instead of improving the system. The private schools won't go through this bullshit. Who will come out on top? And then you'll be willing to pay to send your kids to private school because of how bad the public system will be.
They want to eliminate 4000 places at Hydro Quebec, which will give the same results as in the transportation department, where we lost so much expertise that pretty much everything that should be done when it comes to project evaluation is done poorly, not done at all, or relegated to private institutions. And this was KEY to lead to major corruption problems emerging since a department with no resources can't keep track of what it is supposed to oversee.
Anyone who has paid attention to US politics can recognize the pattern.
Lucien Bouchard, Powercorp, Quebecor. All the same battle.
My main issue with voting for the 3 big parties this election is that they all want to divide people one way or another. Like you said, they all have interesting ideas and about what to do to tackle the challenges the province is facing but they also have very unappealing solutions.
It seems we can't find a way to unite people together no matter what. Charest despises "La rue"(students and people that don't agree with him), Marois wants to create more barriers between francophones and non francophones and Legault is quick to put the blame on unions, doctors and governement workers.
It would be refreshing for a party that has chance to win to aim for unity for once.
Where you see horrible stuff, I see necessity.
I've had my fair share of teachers over the last few years and believe me ; some of them are awful. Shouldn't we want a society where good teachers, good workers of any kind, are rewarded over their kind if they perform above average? Where effort is rewarded? It's not slavery to have such an objective.
I don't like bringing up an exemple the politician himself brought up, but why would England doctors be able to do more than 1 000 patients, and Quebec ones struggle for 700? I'm not saying it's entirely their fault, and I'm sure Legault isn't either. The system is a mess ; fixing the system is not solely on the administrative side. Could we do it solely on the administrative side? I don't know.
Legault is not attacking unions for the sake of attacking unions. The main reason why I got interested in the CAQ in the first place was because of this ; you'll rile me for this, but I honestly believe unions hold too much power in our society. I'm all for unions ; they are essential. But I believe they have overstepped their bounds. When government cannot govern properly because of the fear of strikes and immense powers unions hold, then we have a problem.
You disagree. That is fine. But me, and many others, are not voting CAQ because we are blind and mesmerized by medias. We do this because we too care about Quebec and its future, and the present state and powers of it will hinder us. I'm just now beginning my life, and I'd like not to be utterly boned in 10 or 20 years because the government was always afraid of doing anything.
SketchTheArtist
Member
Ether_Snake
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Listen to this, tell me the CAQ is not full of shit. PQ's financial framework is the best out there, the most realistic. PQ has a team of people who obviously actually have Quebec at heart, not money. It's not made up of opportunists.
CAQ: lying/amateurish financial framework
#1, cooking the books
#2, Hydro-Quebec
#3, health
#4, cooking the books again
#5, privatization of Hydro-Quebec
You know why the left is pro-independence? Because naturally, if you want to build a country, you need to improve the lives of the people. That's the core of the purpose of independence. Can you really believe that it's a coincidence that pro-federalism parties are always right-leaning and pro-privatization, anti-union?
CAQ: lying/amateurish financial framework
#1, cooking the books
#2, Hydro-Quebec
#3, health
#4, cooking the books again
#5, privatization of Hydro-Quebec
You know why the left is pro-independence? Because naturally, if you want to build a country, you need to improve the lives of the people. That's the core of the purpose of independence. Can you really believe that it's a coincidence that pro-federalism parties are always right-leaning and pro-privatization, anti-union?
You're seriously linking me PQ vids? -.-
Of course they're gonna try and find mistakes, real or fictives. I could counter by saying PQ's budget has no mention of the Assurance Emploi that Marois wants to rapatriate, and we know that is gonna cost 800 millions by itself.
All budgets are as equally shady at some point. Each budget also has economists backing it for some reason. But I can't find a non-partisan source, truely non-partisan, saying the truth and lies of each, sadly.
Of course they're gonna try and find mistakes, real or fictives. I could counter by saying PQ's budget has no mention of the Assurance Emploi that Marois wants to rapatriate, and we know that is gonna cost 800 millions by itself.
All budgets are as equally shady at some point. Each budget also has economists backing it for some reason. But I can't find a non-partisan source, truely non-partisan, saying the truth and lies of each, sadly.
Ether_Snake
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BTW on the federal front, have you guys read about how Harper is basically opening the local economy to international mega-corporations, making it possible for the US, EU, Mexico, to sue if governments invest to favor local economies?
French:
http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/ac...re-echange-canadien-et-la-campagne-electorale
English:
http://translate.google.com/transla...re-echange-canadien-et-la-campagne-electorale
Very scary stuff.
French:
http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/ac...re-echange-canadien-et-la-campagne-electorale
English:
http://translate.google.com/transla...re-echange-canadien-et-la-campagne-electorale
Very scary stuff.
SketchTheArtist
Member
You missed the "has a chance to win part"
Oh..... :S
Well, YOU can make it happen!
EDIT: But seriously, if you like the party, like its platform, think the ideology is good and it distances itself from all the other parties, vote for them. Don't vote for who you think might be the winner or vote strategically. Otherwise, we'll be stuck with the same two parties forever.
Like René Lévesque said, a party should only exist for a generation. After that, it gets filled with opportunists and loses the meaning behind its creation. A party is created by the times its surrounded in and PQ has passed its time. Personally, it's ON's turn now.
Ether_Snake
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So should the NDP stop existing? It's 50 years old.
Also, if we voted only on party program, I could create a new party tomorrow with an "awesome" program and apparently I would deserve a lot of votes.
There's a lot more reasoning behind choosing a party, such as who the candidates are, their experience, etc.
Also, I don't like how people give a free pass to QS and ON when it's clear they basically sit on their positions and almost never denounce the CAQ for fear of doing a favor to the PQ. That's also a form of strategy from the "new parties". You'd think QS would stand out more than ever considering they are facing a very right-wing party, but no, they are almost trying to be quiet. All they talk about is vote division and old parties. It's like if the NDP didn't denounce the nature of the CPC.
Also, if we voted only on party program, I could create a new party tomorrow with an "awesome" program and apparently I would deserve a lot of votes.
There's a lot more reasoning behind choosing a party, such as who the candidates are, their experience, etc.
Also, I don't like how people give a free pass to QS and ON when it's clear they basically sit on their positions and almost never denounce the CAQ for fear of doing a favor to the PQ. That's also a form of strategy from the "new parties". You'd think QS would stand out more than ever considering they are facing a very right-wing party, but no, they are almost trying to be quiet. All they talk about is vote division and old parties. It's like if the NDP didn't denounce the nature of the CPC.
That reflects a lot of sentiments from my francophone friends. It's not a question of a vs f, but rather the perceived ineptitude of the PQ.
percephone
Neo Member
How do you explain Bouchard and Dumont signing in with the PQ in 1995? Been center-right does not mean been federalist. I would argue that the referendum of 1995 would not have been so close has Bouchard not been aboard. The fact is that the yes vote was stagnating before he was fully in.
I'm an Union man, CPQMI local 89 to be precise, and the support we got lately from the PQ; regarding bill 33; is far from been something we are thankful for. We're not very happy with Legault's either but we dialoged with businessmen before and we will again so it doesn't really matter.
Ether_Snake
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Bouchard, Dumont, Boisclair, Legault, have all been people who have tried to steer the PQ right-ward, and it never worked. Bouchard left slamming the door when the PQ didn't want to follow him in privatizing HQ. First Boisclair, then Legault was waiting (and orchestrating) for Marois to fall and it turns out she fought through so he left to form his own party and what a coincidence, merged with Dumont's ex-party the ADQ, etc.
There has been a consistent attempt to steer the party right. That's why Marois' team is now made up mostly from people who are center or center-left.
Legault said students live "the good life", that they are lazy and not penny-pinched hence should paid more. Legault said equality of salaries between men and women is overblown because "women don't work for money". Legault says the same thing Bouchard has said: "Quebecers are not productive enough". Etc.
It's the same old speech trying to make it sound like we're poor so we have to sell everything.
Legaults wants a confrontation with unions like Charest had with students. This isn't going mere negotiations. He's going to give municipalities lock-out rights, etc.
There has been a consistent attempt to steer the party right. That's why Marois' team is now made up mostly from people who are center or center-left.
Legault said students live "the good life", that they are lazy and not penny-pinched hence should paid more. Legault said equality of salaries between men and women is overblown because "women don't work for money". Legault says the same thing Bouchard has said: "Quebecers are not productive enough". Etc.
It's the same old speech trying to make it sound like we're poor so we have to sell everything.
Legaults wants a confrontation with unions like Charest had with students. This isn't going mere negotiations. He's going to give municipalities lock-out rights, etc.
Ether_Snake
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It's not usually, in Quebec it is though (not inherently, but strongly). There is an historic precedent for this.
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