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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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Deadly

Member
I have to say from what I've read from the recent posts, I'd be more inclined not to vote for PQ. I haven't been keeping up much though so I'm not very informed.

Extending Bill 101 to CEGEPs though is fucking bullshit. Everyone I know from secondary that switched to English CEGEPs all competently speak French. Those five years are enough to learn it.
 
McGill is one of the best universities in the world, many need to go to an English CEGEP before hand to get prepared for McGill

LOL, by extending Bill 101 to CEGEPs, you will have tons of students applying to McGill who can barely right a paper

Marois knows what she is doing, she want's to keep people dumb and ignorant. A very Republican tactic
 

Kurdel

Banned
Marois knows what she is doing, she want's to keep people dumb and ignorant. A very Republican tactic

Oh please, that is simply not true and a very dumb assumption to make.

Also, can we find stats on the pourcentage of McGill students staying in Québec after their studies?
 

Kifimbo

Member
Oh please, that is simply not true and a very dumb assumption to make.

It's not.

It's funny, people often criticize the Conservative Party for being anti-science. Sometimes it's deserved. Well, the PQ extending Bill 101 to CEGEPs for francophones is anti-science. About 5% of francophones choose English CEGEPs. A tiny fraction of them decides to live only in English after. There is no problem to solve. None.

I'm not saying you should only base policies on science or stats. But if they were consistent, they would also extend Bill 101 to McGill and Concordia for francophones. Because, well, what's the difference ? At 18-20 years old, you're a threat to French if you choose to study in English, but you're not at 20-25 ? Or maybe gutter_trash is right, the PQ knows prohibiting francophones from choosing an English CEGEP will also reduce the number of francophones choosing McGill and Concordia because they don't master English.

In this context, how are we suppose to believe the PQ will improve English teaching in high school ?
 

percephone

Neo Member
Bouchard, Dumont, Boisclair, Legault, have all been people who have tried to steer the PQ right-ward, and it never worked. Bouchard left slamming the door when the PQ didn't want to follow him in privatizing HQ. First Boisclair, then Legault was waiting (and orchestrating) for Marois to fall and it turns out she fought through so he left to form his own party and what a coincidence, merged with Dumont's ex-party the ADQ, etc.

There has been a consistent attempt to steer the party right. That's why Marois' team is now made up mostly from people who are center or center-left.

I think you have some of the timeline wrong there. Boisclair won the leadership after Landry was forced to leave by Marois, I doubt he orchestrated anything since he was out of politics by the time Marois won her leadership. You could even argue that Marois helped Boisclair leave. Legault and Boisclair were close ally. I doubt Leguault had many friends after that.

Bouchard proposal about HQ was to sell shares that amounted to about 10 billions on the market. Dumont later took that idea during his 2008 campaign and paid the price for it. Privatizing HQ will never happen. it's political suicide.

Legault said students live "the good life", that they are lazy and not penny-pinched hence should paid more. Legault said equality of salaries between men and women is overblown because "women don't work for money". Legault says the same thing Bouchard has said: "Quebecers are not productive enough". Etc.

Aside from the women, he's right. We're not as productive as we could be. The public sectors, including Hydro-Québec, is a mess of whole branches of administration doing nothing but counting paperclips.

It's the same old speech trying to make it sound like we're poor so we have to sell everything.

Legaults wants a confrontation with unions like Charest had with students. This isn't going mere negotiations. He's going to give municipalities lock-out rights, etc.

There's always negociations. Lock-out aren't fun but they are part of the negociation. the difference between workers and students is that employers needs their workers as much as the workers need their employers. Workers can get UI benefits during a lock-out too, employers don't get anything during a strike unless they hires scabs, then they get fined.
 
McGill produces a wealth of doctors and scientists and contributes to the advancement of society

the PQ's language law restrictions to CEGEPs (junior colleges) will hamper and hurt the preparation needed for Francophones who want to one day attend McGill .

The PQ is actually hurting its own people.

Jacques Parizeau studied at Oxford in England, kind of hypocritical from this gang that they want to limit education to the next gen
 

Vamphuntr

Member
So how's the hatred going in here today :O I think the campaign is becoming more and more exciting. All 3 leaders are flip flopping so hard it's funny.

Charest is ready to talk with students again. The whole reason he decided to launch the campaign was to win the elections on their back

Legault now wants to "buy" unions. He said he would compensate them for the employees he would fire. Quite a difference from the "they will make compromise or it will be a lockout".

Marois is once again not good with improvised questions. She finally wants the votes of conservatives sovereignist after saying she didn't want their support.

It's pretty funny though as 2 out of 3 of these weren't prominently reported by La Presse and TVA. Only SRC showcased the 3. Guess Desmarais and PKP aren't happy with the current possible outcome. They shouldn't be as no one can predict what will happen anyway and that's why it's interesting.

But yeah keep going with your propaganda guys. On september 4th we will be either crushed by a meteor swarm, warped to Urantia or all get infected with a flesh bacteria depending on which party will win haha.
 

TimeKillr

Member
McGill produces a wealth of doctors and scientists and contributes to the advancement of society

the PQ's language law restrictions to CEGEPs (junior colleges) will hamper and hurt the preparation needed for Francophones who want to one day attend McGill .

The PQ is actually hurting its own people.

Jacques Parizeau studied at Oxford in England, kind of hypocritical from this gang that they want to limit education to the next gen

Dude, now, calm down.

While I wholeheartedly agree that extending Bill 101 to Cegeps is not an especially good policy, if you actually want to go to McGill, you can, you know, LEARN ENGLISH WHILE YOU'RE IN CEGEP. I'm perfectly bilingual. I have no one in my family or even friends while I grew up who spoke english. Yet I learned it on my own through the years, and when I got into cegep I was already fully bilingual. It's not like it's impossible.

I know a lot of francophones who went to McGill that didn't go to an english Cegep. A ton of them, in fact. Same for Concordia. Going to an english cegep doesnt all of a sudden mean you can get into McGill - it just means you might have a bit stronger grasp on the english language.

What the PQ is trying to do here is making sure allophones like yourself will stick with the french system to integrate them better into a french-speaking society. Do I think it's right? No. Do I think english is an evil language that will assimilate us all? No.

But please, take shit at face value. You're a good guy, but this hyperbole you're going on and on is making you sound really, *really* dumb.

I do feel the PQ is being slightly xenophobic (not to the point where I felt ON was) but it's not out to kill civil liberties or anything.
 

Guesong

Member
And so begins a new age of student strikes?

My sole, remaining class for my BAC is scheduled to restart tommorow...but then, some students are paralyzing the classes, and then the police comes in at the UdeM.

Oh, boy. Do I even want to get in this mess tommorow?
 

Vamphuntr

Member
And so begins a new age of student strikes?

My sole, remaining class for my BAC is scheduled to restart tommorow...but then, some students are paralyzing the classes, and then the police comes in at the UdeM.

Oh, boy. Do I even want to get in this mess tommorow?

I think you will be fine. The only issue today was made by 12 morons from social studies. Unless your BAC is in that field you should be fine.

At worse you can try a course transfer using the CRÉPUQ system and attend your class at McGill, Concordia, UQAM or wherever else pleases you. It's only for 1 class anyway. I did those transfers before and everything went fine.
 

Guesong

Member
My class was a complementary class in Cinema..."Faculté des Arts et Sciences". I'm likely boned.

Well, guess I'll head over there tommorow regardless, and if shit goes down/class doesn't occur I'll go see my own department to see what can be done about it. I just don't want to have to abandon it since it sticks on my resume, and then I'd have to pay another 300 bucks to retake another class completely and only finish in 2013, fuck that shit.
 

SRG01

Member
Meanwhile... back with the robocalls affair: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/27/robocalls/

The attached documents all related to the agency’s long and frustrating investigation into a single fraudulent robocall campaign in Guelph, Ont.

The documents give no indication of what, if anything, the agency has done to get to the bottom of calls in other ridings. The agency has not sought search warrants or court orders on phone and Internet companies to produce search warrants, other than those issued in the hunt for the “Pierre Poutine” suspect behind election-day robocalls made to non-Conservative voters.

With no sign of progress in the Poutine probe, it is possible that CRTC penalties for telemarketing violations imposed last week against Guelph Liberal Frank Valeriote could be the only sanctions imposed in the robocalls affair.

Wait, what?
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Haha Charest is in advanced panic mode now. He's ready to toughen up law 101.

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/elections-2012/357907/charest-pret-a-pousser-la-loi-101-plus-loin

After bashing the PQ and Bloc for wanting to do it now he wants to do it too. Guess he understood that it's impossible to win if only 18% of the francophone wants to vote for you.

I predict we will have a Legault Governement with all that is going on.

I wouldn't mind Legault, still better than Marois or Charest... but his idea of giving doctors to every families in only one year makes me wonder if he knows what he is talking about on certain things. My father himself is a doctor and think this objective is a freaking joke and impossible to accomplish.

But eh... that's politicians to you, making promises they can't keep. =/
 

Vamphuntr

Member
I wouldn't mind Legault, still better than Marois or Charest... but his idea of giving doctors to every families in only one year makes me wonder if he knows what he is talking about on certain things. My father himself is a doctor and think this objective is a freaking joke and impossible to accomplish.

But eh... that's politicians to you, making promises they can't keep. =/

From my view all 3 are more or less the same. We'll be in trouble no matter who wins anyway. With Charest "La rue" won't stop protesting like that and his government will implode when the Charbonneau Inquiry will resume. With Marois we will have an identity crisis again because of her plans to mess with the supreme court. And with Legault we will have a social crisis since he wants to restructure everything by cutting jobs and adopting a hard line with unions. I doubt doctors are happy with his plan like you said too. People went in the streets for 2000$ so I doubt they will be tame with all of his plans.

On the bright side, it appears as of now that any of the 3 would have a minority government and as such they wouldn't be able to do anything from their program. Marois wouldn't be able to pass her identity projects, Legault wouldn't be able to pass his "grand ménage" and Charest's government would fall with the Charbonneau Inquiry.
 

Guesong

Member
Why do you think Legault will win at this rate?

He flipflopped again on the student issues and PQ is again leading in polls. Unless something big really happen in the next week, it seems pretty solidified to me.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Why do you think Legault will win at this rate?

He flipflopped again on the student issues and PQ is again leading in polls. Unless something big really happen in the next week, it seems pretty solidified to me.

Personally, I don't think flipflops from any sides really matters at this point. We are less than a week before the polls and people opinion are starting to crystallize. The thing is that CAQ is the only party progressing in votes percentage this far. While the overall province wise tally is the same, he's been increasing steadily in the % of francophone voters that would vote for him. His party is now past the 30% and he's slowly reaching the PQ 38-40%. We still have 6 days to go so if his progression is still going he might catch up with the PQ.

It will all boil down to the teams both party will have in place to encourage voters to go vote, the rallying cries from both parties and if the unions decide to support a party.

To win Legault will need to drain vote from Charest. He'll probably try to rally vote to block Marois and Charest new stance on bill law 101 will make him bleed support in favor of Legault from linguistic minorities.

To win Marois will need the votes of QS and ON. She's been stalling in the poll but having the 7-9% from these two parties would definitely giver her a majority. She started doing this yesterday but she has to be clear that if you are on the left then she's the only viable solution to block the other two. It's more of a last resort than a flipflop and with the poor support he has from the majority he had no other viable solution. I don't think it will work though.

Charest right now is trying to find a lifeline at all cost. Toughening up bill 101 and negotiating with the students and supporters are two points he was against before the election. He had pure hatred for supporters of both of these ideas and now he's on his knee begging people to give him a chance.
 
So tomorrow is the big day in Quebec. Anybody care to make some predictions ? I think the liberals are going to perform better than most people expect. Should be fun to follow the results tomorrow night.
 

maharg

idspispopd
If PQ winds up with a majority out of 34% of the vote like the poll analysis suggests might happen we need to admit as a nation that our entire electoral system is fundamentally broken.
 
I realized our system was all kinds of screwy in the 98 election, when the liberals won the popular vote but ended up with something like 20 less seats then the PQ.
 

SRG01

Member
If PQ winds up with a majority out of 34% of the vote like the poll analysis suggests might happen we need to admit as a nation that our entire electoral system is fundamentally broken.

FPTP was never an effective method. Most parts of the world figured this out years ago :(
 

Ether_Snake

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McGill is one of the best universities in the world, many need to go to an English CEGEP before hand to get prepared for McGill

LOL, by extending Bill 101 to CEGEPs, you will have tons of students applying to McGill who can barely right a paper

Marois knows what she is doing, she want's to keep people dumb and ignorant. A very Republican tactic

Hahaha, I love all the paranoia I keep reading coming from anglophones during this election.

The PLQ (the anglophone party of choice) was the one that wanted to remove philosophy classes from CEGEPS, and even eliminate CEGEPs outright, while the PLQ wanted to keep them. The PLQ has been the party that has wanted to keep people dumb. Just like any efforts made to push for privatization of the school system eventually favors religious schools, which of course the PQ is strongly against. PQ wants a school system that favors learning, unlike the PLQ and CAQ who want people to GTFO and work, unless you're from a rich family.

PQ is also the party which wants to bring a secularism chart, and has been highly active against religion keeping a place of privilege in public society.

Nice try though!:)


Oh yeah let's see what François Legault said in 2003:

http://blogues.journaldemontreal.co.../francois-legault-et-les-conservateurs-du-pq/

«Certains militants du Parti québécois pourraient s’opposer à ce qu’on clarifie les choix de société qui seront faits au lendemain de la souveraineté du Québec, de crainte que ces choix n’éloignent du parti des souverainistes plus conservateurs. Je crois qu’il faut faire le pari qu’en définissant dès maintenant un projet de société social-démocrate, nous pourrons rallier plus de militants, plus de nouveaux arrivants, plus de jeunes et peut-être même une partie de cette gauche «altermondialiste» qui songe à fonder un nouveau parti. Car être souverainiste, c’est justement affirmer le pouvoir qu’ont les peuples à définir les formes concrètes de solidarité. Et le budget d’un Québec souverain sera la meilleure illustration des valeurs sociales qui nous sont chères»

Ooops! He's almost sounding like Amir Khadir there, how strange for a guy who is now a federalist and leading a conservative party.

Legault is a puppet of Lucien Bouchard and bankster Charles Sirois, both puppets of the Desmarais family. He has no convictions. The above quote depicts him as the 100% opposite of what he now represents. His party is a fabrication of the same people who put Charest in place.

Anyway any efforts made to push the PQ further towards progressive ideals is welcomed. The right-wingers can go vote for PLQ/CAQ in true pro-rich-elite manner as always.

I expect a minority PQ government, with 3 seats for QS (Gouin, Mercier, Laurier-Dorion), 1 for ON, with the PLQ in the main opposition.

Some PLQ deputies will eventually use the Commission Charbonneau to justify leaving the party and seat as independents, and eventually join the CAQ.

Clément Gignac will probably become the PLQ chief.
 

Ether_Snake

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Bouchard proposal about HQ was to sell shares that amounted to about 10 billions on the market. Dumont later took that idea during his 2008 campaign and paid the price for it. Privatizing HQ will never happen. it's political suicide.

Ha, I wish, but no. Bouchard is directing the CAQ to privatize HQ, and many steps have already been taken for 15 years now to go in that direction (first under Bouchard, then Charest, now Legault). It is inevitable under the PLQ or CAQ.

http://www.vigile.net/L-agenda-cache-de-Legault-la

Legault's plans for HQ are based on a report for the private/financial elite of the Financial Institute of Montreal, written by Claude Garcia. This report was entirely about the steps to be taken to privatize HQ, and Legault said himself that his plan is based on this report and another one he doesn't want to name (which might not exist).

What steps are to be taken?

Employees are known as liabilities in the business world. Too many employees limits interests by investors. Legault wants to eliminate 4000 jobs out of 12000 at HQ.

The other step is to raise rates to market-price, which is 75% higher than current prices, close to those in Toronto. Electricity fees will rise under the PLQ by 370$ a year, which the CAQ will maintain. This will also help justify privatization since if Quebecers no longer have cheap electricity below market-price, they will have little motivation to support the state company, regardless of the economic benefit for society as a whole to keep profits to a minimum when not reinvested into public coffers.

Those two steps are to make the company more interesting for eventual investors when it makes its IPO. Of course, this will significantly benefit Powercorp, which used to make a lot of money in the energy sector here in Quebec before we nationalized the sector. And Powercorp is run by, the Desmarais family.

This is a good video that explains how the CAQ was created. All of this is actually 100% verifiable and already part of the MSM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXh6mi76F0Q

It's clearly a puppet government created to replace the PLQ and sell Quebec in pieces to the private sector. Same old agenda the PLQ has had for so long (and the PQ under Bouchard, until he left unable to bring about the changes he wanted in the party, even if there has been numerous attempts since).
 

Kurdel

Banned
I would love a PQ minority with the balance of power in QS and ON hands. The smaller and more liberal parties pushing the PQ towards the left would be great, and would leave the door open to a possible referendum, if the time is right.

I also predict a major PLQ meltdown after abysmal numbers.
 

Ether_Snake

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I would love a PQ minority with the balance of power in QS and ON hands. The smaller and more liberal parties pushing the PQ towards the left would be great, and would leave the door open to a possible referendum, if the time is right.

I also predict a major PLQ meltdown after abysmal numbers.

If the NDP comes to Quebec as announced, it would divide QS' votes strongly, they would lose all progress they would have made in this election.

So I'm still wondering if QS will turn back on sovereignty, considering they were far more vocal in supporting it this time, and merge with the NDP, or accept to lose a good 3% of its votes at least. There are left-leaning anglophones vote for QS even if they are pro-independence, and left-leaning federalist-francophones who also vote for them.

I hope the NDP will cancel its plans, and maybe doubling up on independence was a sort of protective measure. The NDP might have thought it had the balance in its favor and could force a QS merging if they opened a provincial party, but now they might think twice about their chances. Then again, they would have nothing to lose to go at it alone, they'll get candidates, votes, publicity, etc., and it will benefit them in the federal campaign.

Would really piss me off though, because everything imaginable will be done to bring the CAQ or PLQ back to power. QS would never be allowed to make strong gains in Quebec, because it would significantly tip the mainstream debate towards progressive ideals, which is something the corporate elite and the media would be very uneasy dealing with.

I expect a LOT of media-based attacks against QS if they do well in the future. The usual extremists/radicals/communists crap. Something they would be shielded from by merging with the NDP, but then you can say goodbye to a lot of votes that would to go to PQ and ON.
 

Guesong

Member
Anyway any efforts made to push the PQ further towards progressive ideals is welcomed. The right-wingers can go vote for PLQ/CAQ in true pro-rich-elite manner as always.

Ahem.

For someone who's quick to jump on medias and see conspiracies about brainwashing mindless sheeps, you're the most zealous, extremist, pro-PQ, anti-right guy I know.

Everyone is brainwashed but you, obviously.

I've said it once, and I will say it again ; we obviously have different views. But do not think for an instant that I am not looking for a better future for me and this nation. Please stop with the rabid fanaticism.
 

Ether_Snake

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I don't know why you feel targeted by that quote. I didn't even quote you. Are you a right-winger, or are you voting PLQ/CAQ? Meanwhile, I have sources to back what I say.

Also how does it make me an extremist zealous pro-PQ anti-right guy to not be against people who vote QS or ON?

I think you might be the zealous:) Are you having doubts about who you were planning to vote for or something?
 

Guesong

Member
I don't know why you feel targeted by that quote. I didn't even quote you. Are you a right-winger, or are you voting PLQ/CAQ? Meanwhile, I have sources to back what I say.

Insinuating anyone who vote PLQ/CAQ is "true pro-rich-elite". Untrue. I care about Quebec just as much as anyone else, and I just got out of University.

Meanwhile, let's see about your source. Let's see the article...

Author : Pierre Dubuc, SPQ Libre. Well we're off to a great start now aren't we. This guy is obviously 100 % unbiased.

Pierre Dubuc completed studies in political science at the Université de Montréal. He eventually became active within the Marxist-Leninist movement En lutte!. He departed the group later in the 1970s, finding it not enough to the left, to join the Union bolchévique. Dubuc founded in 1984, the monthly paper called L'aut'journal, of which he is now director and editor.

Peladeau is a clown, Desmarais is a croony (may be true) ; but THIS GUY clearly has no hidden agenda to push forward himself and not propagandist.

Really, the best kind of sources!

Also how does it make me an extremist zealous pro-PQ anti-right guy to not be against people who vote QS or ON?

What a spin. You very well know it's not even about QS or ON. Nothing wrong with liking their stances. You can "not be against" all you want.

But we've all had the opportunity to see you post about a plurality of topics in the OT forum. You are against anyone remotely leaning to the right. Your posts, be them about Quebec politics or about wider issues, seethes with hatred the moment you start talking about them.

This is not a blame. As I said, I respect any political opinion, as different from mines as they may be. You are free to adopt whichever stance you want to adopt. But it's a deeply condescendent attitude and does not promote respectful debating at all. Why would anyone even want to debate with you with the hypocrisy you are displaying with journalistic sources? You'll discredit one's saying they are puppet media brainwashing everyone, while dangling your SPQ media on the other hand as bible and gospel. You can't be serious.

I think you might be the zealous:) Are you having doubts about who you were planning to vote for or something?

No. And no. But I now have a better understanding of the mythical caribous Legault and Marois were talking about.
 

Ether_Snake

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Oh no Dubuc was pro-communism in the 60s/70s! You know that the communist party merged with Option Citoyenne of Françoise David, becoming the UFP, in 2002, which eventually became Québec Solidaire? There are plenty of former communists in QS, is it supposed to scare us? Yeah in Quebec we don't have a fear of communism, just like in France. We're rational about it.

"In 1996, he contributed to the creation of the Chaire d'études socio-économiques de l'UQÀM, which he directed for two years."

OH NO! A communist at the University du Québec à Montréal! They must not have looked his name up on Wikipedia!

Sorry but it doesn't scare me, it shouldn't scare anyone.

And how is the fact that this is by Dubuc putting in doubt the content of the report by Claude Garcia for the Economic Institute of Montreal, which Legault himself said he used to establish his goals of eliminating 4000 jobs at HQ, and which was all about the need and methods to take to privatize HQ? And why is Legault keeping his "other reports" secret? Either they don't exist, or they would reveal the real nature of who he is working for, which Garcia's report already does partially.

http://lesnews.ca/politique/22479-h...reveler-ses-etudes-secretes-dit-jean-charest/

Au cours de sa campagne électorale, hier, François Legault a révélé que son plan de compressions de 600 millions de dollars chez Hydro-Québec était basé, entre autres, sur des »études secrètes».

«Des études ont été faites par des personnes qui souhaitent les garder confidentielles. Compte tenu que ça a été fait avec des moyens limités, les auteurs ont voulu qu’elles restent privées», a déclaré en substance François Legault.

L’autre volet de son plan pour Hydro-Québec est basé sur une analyse de Claude Garcia, ex-PDG de la Standard Life, pilier de l’Action démocratique du Québec et tenant d’une privatisation d’Hydro-Québec.

«Pour vendre Hydro-Québec à la juste valeur marchande, il faudrait augmenter les tarifs à la valeur du marché. Ça veut dire une augmentation dramatique des tarifs», a affirmé Jean Charest au sujet de l’analyse de Claude Garcia.

So Dubuc is 100% right. We know Bouchard is a backer of the CAQ, Desmarais is pulling the strings of both the CAQ and PLQ, and HQ is to be privatized. The steps are being taken to do this. It's been taking place since Bouchard led the PQ and has continued steadily since.
 

Guesong

Member
Oh no Dubuc was pro-communism in the 60s/70s! You know that the communist party merged with Option Citoyenne of Françoise David, becoming the UFP, in 2002, which eventually became Québec Solidaire? There are plenty of former communists in QS, is it supposed to scare us? Yeah in Quebec we don't have a fear of communism, just like in France. We're rational about it.

"In 1996, he contributed to the creation of the Chaire d'études socio-économiques de l'UQÀM, which he directed for two years."

OH NO! A communist at the University du Québec à Montréal! They must not have looked his name up on Wikipedia!

Sorry but it doesn't scare me, it shouldn't scare anyone.

Who said I feared him?

Was just expliciting the background of your trustworthy source to everyone.

And what about economists? Like Claude Garcia? Should we fear them? Or are you rational about it?
 

Ether_Snake

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Who said I feared him?

Was just expliciting the background of your trustworthy source to everyone.

And what about economists? Like Claude Garcia? Should we fear them? Or are you rational about it?

The source is trustworthy, sine it reports facts. The commentary of Dubuc itself is eye-opening.

And yes, I do fear the influence of The Economic Institute of Montreal's report that puts forward the steps to be taken to privatize HQ, yes of course, for very rational reasons.

Below-market electricity prices for the population, 75% of all profits from HQ Distribution going back to the state rather than going into the pockets of foreign companies or tax havens, and making energy a national asset used to the benefit of our nation is something I don't want us to lose to the private sector. The US and the ROC would benefit from doing the same significantly, on an economic level as well as on a quality of life level.

And of course I fear any promotion or success of a party that seeks to implement such programs or any programs that favors the private sector instead of favoring the well-being of the population when it comes to energy, environment, health, and education. Especially when those parties are financed and directed by individuals with extremely close ties to two companies that run all mainstream media outlets in Quebec.

Yes.

Oh BTW I'm not the only one to distrust them:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_économique_de_Montréal#Critiques
L'IEDM fut critiqué par Le Devoir et par des universités à propos de la neutralité idéologique de ses recherches11. Son argumentaire fut également remis en question à quelques reprises par l'Institut de recherche et d'informations socio-économiques basé à Montréal12,13,14

It was founded by a libertarian BTW, Pierre Lemieux.

"The public domain," he wrote in Du libéralisme à l'anarcho-capitalisme, "is only justifiable to the extent that it supports private liberty; the role of the state is to protect anarchy."

I think I'm with the good guys here:)

I hope Daniel Breton will be elected. This guy is key to bringing back the notion of "Maître chez nous" to our government.

Worth watching for anyone who wants a history lesson about energy in Quebec, it's nationalization, and recent attempts to privatize it. It's split in 5 parts (in French): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvTfzhfRS18
 

RevoDS

Junior Member
Happy election day, everyone! Whatever happens, today will be exciting!

Just giving you guys a heads up: two last-minute polls were released in the final hours before the election-day media blackout, both showing a significant shift in support over the last weekend of the campaign.

Forum has the PQ at 36, Libs at 29, CAQ at 25 and QS at 6% (I'd be cautious with this one; Forum was the one pegging the Libs at 35% just last week)
EKOS has the PQ at 36 as well, but the CAQ and PLQ are respectively at 24.5 and 23.2%, with QS hitting 10.7%.

Both polls show very different results from the past week's polls, but then again they're both very recent (EKOS' polling is significant because it has a sample of 1794 people over four days, from Friday to Monday morning)

Let's see who's right tonight, I guess?
 

Ether_Snake

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Happy election day, everyone! Whatever happens, today will be exciting!

Just giving you guys a heads up: two last-minute polls were released in the final hours before the election-day media blackout, both showing a significant shift in support over the last weekend of the campaign.

Forum has the PQ at 36, Libs at 29, CAQ at 25 and QS at 6% (I'd be cautious with this one; Forum was the one pegging the Libs at 35% just last week)
EKOS has the PQ at 36 as well, but the CAQ and PLQ are respectively at 24.5 and 23.2%, with QS hitting 10.7%.

Both polls show very different results from the past week's polls, but then again they're both very recent (EKOS' polling is significant because it has a sample of 1794 people over four days, from Friday to Monday morning)

Let's see who's right tonight, I guess?

This one seems more likely, for QS. They are winning Mercier and Gouin, and its neck-to-neck in Laurier-Dorion. 3 seats would likely imply more than 6%. I expect them to get at least 9%. I expect CAQ or PLQ to do better than that by 2% each at least though, with PQ probably closer to 34%/33%.
 

sikkinixx

Member
Much like the US election where America is "doomed" no matter who wins, no matter who wins everyone will say Quebec is doomed right?
 
Much like the US election where America is "doomed" no matter who wins, no matter who wins everyone will say Quebec is doomed right?

Not really. Cool thing is that new parties are picking up steam which will surely lead to a new way to represent parties based on something that's closer to the percentage they're getting. Because right now, a bit more than the third of Quebec is going to vote for a party that'll govern the rest of those that didn't vote for it. So having this new method (which only advantages those old parties) could help the new parties getting seen by more people.

Hopefully in 10-15 years, the political landscape will have changed. And who knows, maybe we could finally be able to govern ourselves then. ;)
 

Ether_Snake

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Much like the US election where America is "doomed" no matter who wins, no matter who wins everyone will say Quebec is doomed right?

Not doomed at all. People have become more politically active than ever over the past few years, especially the last few months, and this will remain. QS and ON, even with less than 12% of votes total, are now going to likely both be represented in the assembly. Usually we only had three parties. With five parties, in a much more politicized society than just a few years ago, especially among francophone youth, we'll have a very active democracy in the years to come. If NDP shows up it will be even crazier.

So it changes the political scene for sure, but I think it's for the best.
 

Deadly

Member
I'm just wondering, most people I know go on about how the PQ is a sovereign party and while I find all party's have faults, the PQ seems to have the most, in my opinion. But just why are they getting so many votes in their favor now after all these years? To those voting PQ, what convinced you?
 

Ether_Snake

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I'm just wondering, most people I know go on about how the PQ is a sovereign party and while I find all party's have faults, the PQ seems to have the most, in my opinion. But just why are they getting so many votes in their favor now after all these years? To those voting PQ, what convinced you?

What do you mean after all these years? Their program is great. The two other main parties are right-leaning parties. The PLQ, which has ruled for the last 9 years, is involved neck-deep in scandals, as can be read here (in google English): http://translate.google.com/transla...=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://liberaux.net/

PQ program google-translated in English, which I think is very good for the population on pretty much all fronts, and well budgeted:
http://translate.google.com/transla...yout=2&eotf=1&u=http://pq.org/parti/programme
 

Guesong

Member
I'm just wondering, most people I know go on about how the PQ is a sovereign party and while I find all party's have faults, the PQ seems to have the most, in my opinion. But just why are they getting so many votes in their favor now after all these years? To those voting PQ, what convinced you?

I'm not voting for them. In fact, I don't know anyone IRL who's voting for them, which always seemed curious to me.

The biggest reason why I looked away from the PQ long ago is because it's the party that refuses to rattle the right cages. Quebecers hate seeing conflicts in their midst, it is known. For each crisis, they'll hold a summit about the question, which'll take forever, and then they will very lightly apply each proposed solution.

We're slowly heading toward an economic crisis again at this rate, and the only thing PQ seem to have an iron hand with is with french-speaking stuff like Bill 101 at work at extending it to CEGEPs. While I can see this being a good issue to tackle on eventually, the crisis is elsewhere. But they seem to think it's not, and that magical sources of revenues will appear.

I mean, I understand Ether_Snake for not wanting HQ to be sold. (Thank you btw for steering back into a less partisan attitude :) ) But what do you think will have to happen in 10, 20 years when the debt is still growing because nobody wants to tackle the problem directly, always promising more without ever saying how (because they want to win elections! And don't you dare take anything away from any Quebecer!). The government then will gasp for air, for money, because now they'll have less and less but with an ever-growing debt and multiple social services to fund. At that point, HQ is guaranteed to be sold, to buy us 4-5 more years of fake respite.

I choose to think, in good faith, that Legault will not do it. I believe he is inspiring himself from Garcia and other IDEMs members with some of their measures that can still be applied regardless of HQ being private or not ; which, as Snake said, is happening. I do think it's a leap of logic to consider this as being 100 % definitive proof that Legault wants to privatize it. It would be political suicide anyhow and the population wouldn't allow it ; we all saw what they could do with the students strikes, now imagine that tenfold. Ain't happening. And if it does happen, we'd just be earlier than scheduled with the course a PQ government seems to want to set us on anyhow.

I'd consider myself a left-leaning person in regular times. But my life has just now started to really begin. I want the actual problems to be solved now, while they're still manageable, than having to deal with a crockload of shit later on in my life. You just have to lean right at some point. And I don't see how the PQ can do it with its current mentality.
 

TimeKillr

Member
I'm not voting for them. In fact, I don't know anyone IRL who's voting for them, which always seemed curious to me.

Well it's simple - do you mostly know anglos or francos?

No anglo votes PQ. Well, very, VERY few do, but generally, they hate the PQ because they're separatist. If you know know francos, you'll know a shitton of people voting for the PQ.

The biggest reason why I looked away from the PQ long ago is because it's the party that refuses to rattle the right cages. Quebecers hate seeing conflicts in their midst, it is known. For each crisis, they'll hold a summit about the question, which'll take forever, and then they will very lightly apply each proposed solution.

This is true, and this is why I also don't generally like the PQ. It's an old monolithic party that is plagued by so much internal conflict that it's problematic. I'm a Quebec Solidaire kind of guy, and I'm incredibly happy that they're going up and up with every election.

We're slowly heading toward an economic crisis again at this rate, and the only thing PQ seem to have an iron hand with is with french-speaking stuff like Bill 101 at work at extending it to CEGEPs. While I can see this being a good issue to tackle on eventually, the crisis is elsewhere. But they seem to think it's not, and that magical sources of revenues will appear.

This is but ONE part of their program (and I highly doubt it'll happen, because seriously, people won't be happy either). They do have strong programs in place for other parts of the economy...

I mean, I understand Ether_Snake for not wanting HQ to be sold. (Thank you btw for steering back into a less partisan attitude :) ) But what do you think will have to happen in 10, 20 years when the debt is still growing because nobody wants to tackle the problem directly, always promising more without ever saying how (because they want to win elections! And don't you dare take anything away from any Quebecer!). The government then will gasp for air, for money, because now they'll have less and less but with an ever-growing debt and multiple social services to fund. At that point, HQ is guaranteed to be sold, to buy us 4-5 more years of fake respite.

See, that's the thing. Who gives a flying rat's ass about the debt? Anyone who sells HQ is looking at complete political suicide.

I choose to think, in good faith, that Legault will not do it. I believe he is inspiring himself from Garcia and other IDEMs members with some of their measures that can still be applied regardless of HQ being private or not ; which, as Snake said, is happening. I do think it's a leap of logic to consider this as being 100 % definitive proof that Legault wants to privatize it. It would be political suicide anyhow and the population wouldn't allow it ; we all saw what they could do with the students strikes, now imagine that tenfold. Ain't happening. And if it does happen, we'd just be earlier than scheduled with the course a PQ government seems to want to set us on anyhow.

I'd consider myself a left-leaning person in regular times. But my life has just now started to really begin. I want the actual problems to be solved now, while they're still manageable, than having to deal with a crockload of shit later on in my life. You just have to lean right at some point. And I don't see how the PQ can do it with its current mentality.

I'm 100% positive Legault will actively go for selling HQ, simply for the fact that he is backed by asshats who just want to own more and more and more (Desmarais, Bouchard, Peladeau, and god knows who else). These absolutely dirty people simply want to be able to buy a piece of the pie from HQ. They think of one thing: money.

I understand that your life has just started, really. Regardless of who is in power, you'll have to deal with a crockload of shit later on in your life. In fact, I'd wager that if we had a CAQ or PLQ government, you'd probably deal with much more shit than if, say, QS or even the PQ was in power. Why? Social programs are incredibly good pacifiers, genuinely help people and benefit ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY. You're paying money for social programs so that people can actually have more money to spend into the economy. And this is regardless of people who abuse the system - they do exist, but I personally would much rather have people abusing a system that genuinely helps people than cutting a system and screwing people out of help because some people abuse it.

How do you fix a recession? It's not with the job creators - give them tax cuts and they'll keep the money to themselves. The one good thing to come out of the consumerist society the world has built over time is that if you give more money to the consumer, he'll buy shit (even if he can't really afford it). THIS is what works the economy. It creates more demand. More demand generates more jobs and more services. What the right-leaning people seek to do is hoard the money to themselves, because if more people have access to it, their precious resource lessens in value. Who cares if you're rich in a society where people can live very decently? It doesn't bring anything special.
 

Guesong

Member
This is but ONE part of their program (and I highly doubt it'll happen, because seriously, people won't be happy either). They do have strong programs in place for other parts of the economy...

It may be but ONE part of their program, but somehow that's the one they communicated more (or that the media stuck on). I actually checked the PQ programme Snake linked earlier, and went straight to the economy section. While there was good ideas there (much like in any party), the "how", is simply missing. You cannot simply wish economy and "help promote X, help promote Y". I find their lack of detail and explicitation in that domain disturbing, and not very reassuring.

They did release their "cadre" late, after all. That's most likely why ; a good deals of good wishes with very few concrete, precise plans to go with it.


See, that's the thing. Who gives a flying rat's ass about the debt?

o_O

I do. Someone, somewhere, eventually, will have to pay the debt. It won't go away. It'll cripple us. To solve it, we will requires sacrifices from everybody, poor and riches alike. It would be better to attack this problem now, before it grows even more.

If this were an utopia, I'd be all for keeping all social services intact, and adding even more unto it. But we simply cannot, and I cannot fathom how the PQ intend to do so without worsening this situation.

Though to be honest, I don't see how anyone could, what's with all the different lobbies and syndicates that are plaguing our nation. I don't buy into Charest's propaganda that "Marois = la rue", but I can't help but fear that now that people saw all they had to do was disobey and hold on, that we'll see alot of similar strikes (may be not for the right cause, nor with the same level of people) that a PQ government will eventually give into.

I really believe we need someone with a iron hand. Legault went soft at the end of the campaign and quite frankly I lost alot of respect there. Can't imagine I'm alone on that. Otherwise he had that iron hand thing going, and I hope he picks it back up before the next election.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
The die has been cast. Let the bitter tears flow :p

I voted so now I have the right to complain! I really don't mind about which party will win but I would be happy if Charest lost.
 
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