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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland
- Thread starter DreamMachine
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Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
So generous of you to take one for the team.
equippedwithtowel
Member
If EKOS is on point she's gonna need a big shift.
killer rin
Member
Hey, if that ever went through I wouldn't complain. Lets get those islands.
This Turks and Caicos thing might make for a fun thread to start in OT.
"Canadian Imperialism: Turks and Caicos visit leads to talk of annexation ... again"
I just don't know what Horwath can do to swing things in her favour. The left (and the centre-left) should have abandoned the Liberals because of the corruption and went to the NDP, but they haven't.
"Canadian Imperialism: Turks and Caicos visit leads to talk of annexation ... again"
I just don't know what Horwath can do to swing things in her favour. The left (and the centre-left) should have abandoned the Liberals because of the corruption and went to the NDP, but they haven't.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
If EKOS is on point there's going to be a Green revolution lol. I'm not going to deny her bad numbers from other polls but that EKOS poll is indeed a joke. They have NDP in 4th place in Northern Ontario (behind Greens) when every other pollster is putting them between high 30s and close to 50.
edit: the new Abacus poll released today is more credible - 34% OLP, 32% PCPO, 25% ONDP, 6% GPO ---- 6% is definitely more realistic than 13% lol.
edit 2: What's interesting about the Abacus poll is that 23% of people who say they're going to vote Liberal are saying it's "time for a change in government," another 23% say they're unsure, only 53% of Liberals think that the Liberals deserve to be re-elected. I think this says that most OLP voters are anti-Hudak rather than pro-Liberal. June 3 will be interesting.
gutter_trash
Banned
I don't want those beautiful islands to be ruined with Tim Horton's
I just came across that article. How can we annex a British overseas territory? I know it's a pipe dream at the moment. But seriously, why?
It was a hard winter.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
So yeah, the last time I remember this coming up was 2004, but it's not a new idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propos...tories_of_Canada#British_overseas_territories
"In 1917, the Prime Minister of Canada, Robert Borden first suggested that Canada annex the Turks and Caicos Islands"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propos...tories_of_Canada#British_overseas_territories
"In 1917, the Prime Minister of Canada, Robert Borden first suggested that Canada annex the Turks and Caicos Islands"
The will of their people? Assuming that their people are in support, I guess we'd have to buy the Turks and Caicos from the UK. Assuming of course, that they're willing to sell. Although I think maybe they'd just have to have a referendum and the British would give them to us.
There's also the fact that we'd have to subsidize them and build up the islands to a first world standard. They'd suddenly be the poorest province. And joining Canada would probably cause severe gentrification for Turks.
equippedwithtowel
Member
More like Anti Hudak and decidedly apathetic about Horvath.
http://politics.theglobeandmail.com/2014/05/26/here-are-some-warning-signs-for-horwaths-ndp/
Her negatives aren't terrible, but she's losing ground in the left of center swing. To be fair this is probably going to be reflected (if at all) more so in the popular vote then the seat count for the ONDP, but it could prove the difference in a handful of tight lib/pc races.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
She doesn't need -every- Liberal voting for her, if she can change the mind of say, 5% of the Liberals chunk and 5% from Conservatives, that can get the barrel rolling.
1) pick up the disillusioned centre-right and centrist vote who don't believe in Hudak's extremism but still want a fiscally responsible and honest government. Then,
2) pull a strong debate performance on June 3 like she did today. That will get her some more Liberal and undecided pie.
Time is running out and a Liberal government is looking inevitable, but she can still pull a strong performance. I think at least I can sleep knowing that her seat count and popular vote don't look to be going down, but that's not going to really change anything in Ontario. I want the Liberals out
1) pick up the disillusioned centre-right and centrist vote who don't believe in Hudak's extremism but still want a fiscally responsible and honest government. Then,
2) pull a strong debate performance on June 3 like she did today. That will get her some more Liberal and undecided pie.
Time is running out and a Liberal government is looking inevitable, but she can still pull a strong performance. I think at least I can sleep knowing that her seat count and popular vote don't look to be going down, but that's not going to really change anything in Ontario. I want the Liberals out
BigJonsson
Member
If the Liberals win how fast do you think the PCs turf Hudak as leader?
Do you think Horwath is in trouble if she caused an election only to end up with the status quo?
Do you think Horwath is in trouble if she caused an election only to end up with the status quo?
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Hopefully before the night is over I'd jump on the Christine Elliott bandwagon at godspeed. (edit: that would be super interesting, all three provincial leaders being women)
I don't think anyone will be mad, you vote for who you vote for. It will be like the 2008 election. Maybe the Marxists and Communists will have their knives out for her but I don't think anyone with a brain doubts that if they kick Horwath out, the NDP is done in Southwestern Ontario.
I'd jump on the Christine Elliott bandwagon at godspeed. (edit: that would be super interesting, all three provincial leaders being women)I don't think anyone will be mad, you vote for who you vote for. It will be like the 2008 election. Maybe the Marxists and Communists will have their knives out for her but I don't think anyone with a brain doubts that if they kick Horwath out, the NDP is done in Southwestern Ontario.
BigJonsson
Member
If the Liberals win, will the opposition try to work with them or still harp on the gas plants?
I guess we'll find out in a few weeks
I guess we'll find out in a few weeks
Knowing Ontario politics? They'll be harping on the gas plants for at least ten more years.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Ughhh, Liberals yapping about their HSR again. This idea just makes me so angry. It represents Liberal lies, dishonesty, scandal, corruption, fiscal irresponsibility all rolled into one idea.
They say they can get someone from Toronto to Kitchener with $10 while a GO Bus from North Toronto to Hamilton costs $16, a train from 'Sauga to Toronto costs $8 last time I checked. They'll say anything to hold onto power.
They say they can get someone from Toronto to Kitchener with $10 while a GO Bus from North Toronto to Hamilton costs $16, a train from 'Sauga to Toronto costs $8 last time I checked. They'll say anything to hold onto power.
(John) Tory now proposing to repurpsoe existing GO train track and turn it into an all day surface rail running from Union to Unionville... I supposed it sounds ok on paper (less construction = less cost?) but how can he control the portion of GO in Markham? I highly doubt Markham will like this idea.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Krae_man is hating the hell out of us right now.
----
What is it with TV Ontario and putting on interesting debates during a Habs game? First healthcare, then transit and now the NDP budget/platform.
For anyone who's interested:
Andrea Horwath budget interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh544DkTzyw
Increasing voter turnout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5FihU2RAM
Tim Hudak interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5PxatbM2J4
Mike Schrenier interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5nemVbzkXw
Hudak's Million Jobs Plan (+Transit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldx_6yth_o4
Healthcare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXQHuGus7ZU
Energy (politics): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRSnqyyVrDQ
Transportation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPFZnwCvs0M
You sir are a crazy person. That shit will be awesome if it ever happens. Fuck having to sit on Go bus, then a Mississauga Transit bus for approx 3 hours total(plus up to an hour waiting time in between) to get to the airport.
That voter apathy video is great. I'll have to get around to watching the Mike Schreiner one.
Breaking news:
Conservative fails at math, and the sky is blue.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-in-hudaks-job-creation-plan/article18881984/
I think what it mean is:
A company hire 1000 people. In the second year, none of those 1000 are fired, but no one new is hired. The same process repeat for 8 years.
How many job does the company create? According to Tim Hudek, it is 8000.
Conservative fails at math, and the sky is blue.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-in-hudaks-job-creation-plan/article18881984/
I think what it mean is:
A company hire 1000 people. In the second year, none of those 1000 are fired, but no one new is hired. The same process repeat for 8 years.
How many job does the company create? According to Tim Hudek, it is 8000.
He'll be firing 800,000 public servants! And creating a MILLION jobs. That's a net increase of 200 K, sir.
gutter_trash
Banned
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/28/romeo-dallaire-senate-retiring-liberal_n_5404378.html
Romeo Dallaire to retire from the senate
IMO, he should wait after the 2015 election.
Retiring during a Conservative government is still in power will just free up a space for a new Conservative Senator
Romeo Dallaire to retire from the senate
IMO, he should wait after the 2015 election.
Retiring during a Conservative government is still in power will just free up a space for a new Conservative Senator
firehawk12
Subete no aware
lol
Harper's not going to appoint anyone before 2015 anyway.
Or give Harper yet another inch of rope to hang himself, given his latest track record.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Has he even tried to appoint a new Justice after the fiasco from last month? He already pissed off the entire Quebec legal community.
equippedwithtowel
Member
This has been kicking around for a few days. It's the reason that all the estimates were precise numbers.
119 808... fuck off
So I'm seeing a lot of million jobs plan ads as I'm browsing with Hudak prominently featured and I realized that it seems to be impossible to get a nice looking picture of the guy. It's not just jounros picking funny looking pictures but heavily paid professional photographers can't seem to do it either. I mean Wynne and Horwath aren't lookers either but Wynne has the hipster grandma thing going while Wynne looks like an enthusiastic field hockey coach. Hudak just looks odd.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
So now we have two parties with voodoo math. Conservatives and their billion jobs plan and Liberals eliminating $15 billion deficit in 3 years without hiking taxes and paying for HSRs.
Simon Belmont
Banned
You can include the NDP's path to victory there too.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
And one of those doesn't turn Ontario to the next New Brunswick or Alabama
Nope. He's either bidding his time to toss it off on someone else or hoping shit will blow over enough for him to try again.
http://www.cp24.com/news/2014-ontar...-up-with-ndp-if-tories-win-minority-1.1842074
I wouldn't be against a coalition government.
I wouldn't be against a coalition government.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Coalition governments are legitimate. Minority governments are legitimate. Party mergers and splits are legitimate. Floor crossing is legitimate. It's all a function of the rules of the system. Hudak's attempt to echo post-Prime Minister Harper and declare things illegitimate because he doesn't like the outcome is totally bogus. Which is not a surprise, Hudak is a terrible leader with no ideas. Of course there's also nothing precluding Horwath entering into a coalition agreement with the Tories instead of the Liberals, so maybe he'll eat his words. I'd also note that there's nothing precluding the PCs from ignoring the coalition agreement, attempting to govern, losing a confidence vote, going to the lieutenant governor, and trying to force the outcome they want with him--either to try to force another electoral writ without giving the coalition a chance, or to try to force the NDP to negotiate a coalition. Certainly the country has a rich history of partisan political pressure on the crown to abuse the royal prerogative
... but what's not clear is why the NDP would say yes to Wynne's offer, either. Wynne's most recent budget was (and the fact that this was a shameless political move is true but irrelevant to the discussion) the kind of budget that the NDP would get if they had input on the budget process, as they would in a coalition government. They said no to the budget. So it would definitely seem to be crassly political for the NDP to accept a coalition offer, as though they said "Nah, we'll take our chances on our own... oh, it didn't work out... offer still on the table?" It'd be trying to have your cake and eat it to, and I'd hope voters would punish that kind of electioneering. That would seem like, say, running in an election, losing, taking a senate appointment, resigning it to run in an election again, losing again, and taking another senate appointment. Still, Horwath does seem to be pretty willing to throw principle to the wind, so maybe she doesn't care about this kind of perception.
... but what's not clear is why the NDP would say yes to Wynne's offer, either. Wynne's most recent budget was (and the fact that this was a shameless political move is true but irrelevant to the discussion) the kind of budget that the NDP would get if they had input on the budget process, as they would in a coalition government. They said no to the budget. So it would definitely seem to be crassly political for the NDP to accept a coalition offer, as though they said "Nah, we'll take our chances on our own... oh, it didn't work out... offer still on the table?" It'd be trying to have your cake and eat it to, and I'd hope voters would punish that kind of electioneering. That would seem like, say, running in an election, losing, taking a senate appointment, resigning it to run in an election again, losing again, and taking another senate appointment. Still, Horwath does seem to be pretty willing to throw principle to the wind, so maybe she doesn't care about this kind of perception.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I'm sure this has happened before, but what if there's a tie on some ruling in the court?
Or have they basically stopped taking cases until Harper can stop being a dick and appoint someone qualified instead of partisan?
equippedwithtowel
Member
Nit that I'm a huge fan of Horvath as a leader but if the ONDP came back to the table in a coalition in exchange for dropping the pension plan that would practically perfect.
It might get some dippers off their high horse of integrity as well.
It might get some dippers off their high horse of integrity as well.
The Justice that is set to be replaced has not retired yet so they can still bid their time in selecting a new appointee.
Edit: Or that ^. But in the hypothetical...
Split votes in the Canadian supreme court seem kind of rare. And if a decision were hung on a split vote I imagine it would just sit until that changed or someone was appointed and broke the tie. Afaik the court sets its own deadlines.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Ah, that makes sense.
Isn't that a problem though? Like, if there is a tie and they're waiting for a new Justice, then basically the PM has the power to decide the outcome of the case by appointing someone who they know will vote their way...
Ok, my bad here. I thought Justice Fish was retiring in October of this year, but he actually retired in October of last year, it seems.
Normally, when a vacancy has yet to be filled, the Chief Justice will assign an odd number of Justices to hear a case. That said, the Supreme Court has being hearing cases with all eight presiding judges present to hear the case. This is kinda playing with fire quite frankly.
As for what happens in the even of the tie, then the decision of the previous lower court will stand.
Found the info here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supreme-court-s-marc-nadon-delay-may-lead-to-tie-decisions-1.2417992
Normally, when a vacancy has yet to be filled, the Chief Justice will assign an odd number of Justices to hear a case. That said, the Supreme Court has being hearing cases with all eight presiding judges present to hear the case. This is kinda playing with fire quite frankly.
As for what happens in the even of the tie, then the decision of the previous lower court will stand.
Found the info here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supreme-court-s-marc-nadon-delay-may-lead-to-tie-decisions-1.2417992
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Coalition governments and minority governments are always more legitimate and democratic than any faux majority in this FPTP system. The reason it was okay to decry it in 2009 was because it relied on BQ to stay afloat. I don't know about you but I don't want a separatist party anywhere near the decision table.
I don't think she's saying she'll make a coalition if Liberals get first place, she'll do it if Liberals get 2nd or 3rd place and NDP doesn't form government and it's a minority situation. I mean, she'll pretty much have to, the unions will unleash all hell if she let Hudak govern.
Also I think she'll put it up to a vote to the NDP base, I doubt it will come out of nowhere.
And the Liberal and NDP pension plan is the same. Wait 'till 2015 election and see what government forms, if no expanded CPP, then introduce ORPP in 2017. Hopefully they phase it in instead of doing it hasty.
Me personally I'm hoping for a Conservative minority with NDP holding the balance of power. No more extremism, no more corruption, no more waste, no more Liberals thanks to judicial inquiry.
I don't think she's saying she'll make a coalition if Liberals get first place, she'll do it if Liberals get 2nd or 3rd place and NDP doesn't form government and it's a minority situation. I mean, she'll pretty much have to, the unions will unleash all hell if she let Hudak govern.
Also I think she'll put it up to a vote to the NDP base, I doubt it will come out of nowhere.
And the Liberal and NDP pension plan is the same. Wait 'till 2015 election and see what government forms, if no expanded CPP, then introduce ORPP in 2017. Hopefully they phase it in instead of doing it hasty.
Me personally I'm hoping for a Conservative minority with NDP holding the balance of power. No more extremism, no more corruption, no more waste, no more Liberals thanks to judicial inquiry.
The narrative of the NDP being unprincipled does not hold any water with me. Horwath seemed incredibly unhappy after the news of the criminal investigation into the Liberal staffer broke and the NDP went ito blackout after that. It really was an incredibly ugly turn of events for the Wynne government making it impossible to support without the taint rubbing off. Plus whether Wynne can actually get anything done is also a valid question to ask. AFAIK Wynne didn't do anything to reduce auto insurance rates as was one of Horwath's requirements and the number of spending scandals the Liberals have suffered points to either incredible corruption, incompetence or a combination of the two. To lose confidence in this kind of administration isn't a hard argument to make.
Also the idea that if the NDP deal with the Libs after the 12th would be hypocritical makes no sense. It's basically saying that a Hudak like I'LL NEVER DEAL WITH THEM EVER FOR ANY REASON FOREVER NO MATTER WHAT! is the only way to be 'pure'. You deal with who gets elected to push your priorities. That they might have a fake mandate based on the incredibly absurd voting system is a problem but you still have to deal with the consequences in an adult manner.
Also the idea that if the NDP deal with the Libs after the 12th would be hypocritical makes no sense. It's basically saying that a Hudak like I'LL NEVER DEAL WITH THEM EVER FOR ANY REASON FOREVER NO MATTER WHAT! is the only way to be 'pure'. You deal with who gets elected to push your priorities. That they might have a fake mandate based on the incredibly absurd voting system is a problem but you still have to deal with the consequences in an adult manner.
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