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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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firehawk12

Subete no aware
Silexx said:
Ok, my bad here. I thought Justice Fish was retiring in October of this year, but he actually retired in October of last year, it seems.

Normally, when a vacancy has yet to be filled, the Chief Justice will assign an odd number of Justices to hear a case. That said, the Supreme Court has being hearing cases with all eight presiding judges present to hear the case. This is kinda playing with fire quite frankly.

As for what happens in the even of the tie, then the decision of the previous lower court will stand.

Found the info here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supr...ions-1.2417992
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Huh. I wonder if you can appeal if there's a tie and the bench is full again down the line, or if that ruling is considered final? That really seems weird.
 
S

Simon Belmont

Banned
Dippers hoping for a Conservative Government is baffling. It worked out so well Federally.

Hudak won't get elected anyways. He's just too unlikable.
 
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explodet

Member
I love this headline on the National Post's site:
Andrew Coyne said:
Tim Hudak's Million Jobs plan is bogus and inept, but that is no reason not to vote for him
Click to expand...
We can probably find a couple other reasons there, Andy.
 
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equippedwithtowel

Member
You Are Viewtiful said:
Me personally I'm hoping for a Conservative minority with NDP holding the balance of power. No more extremism, no more corruption, no more waste, no more Liberals thanks to judicial inquiry.
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jt-stare.gif


More like no unchecked extremism.
 
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firehawk12

Subete no aware
After Harper, we already know that minorities can be run like majorities because the opposition parties rarely want to be responsible for the fall of a government and get the blame for "wasting tax payer money" on an election.
 
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elty

Member
Best situation would be a short live PC-NDP government that keep most of the craziness out, eliminates Tim Hudek and hopefully, replaced with someone more rational. If somehow we get some kind of proportional system then it will be even better.

Right now we have a choice of a corrupted party, an extremist party that is likely going to be corrupted anyways and a party that doesn't know what it is doing.
 
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Azih

Member
firehawk12 said:
After Harper, we already know that minorities can be run like majorities because the opposition parties rarely want to be responsible for the fall of a government and get the blame for "wasting tax payer money" on an election.
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Harper's minority reign of terror had more to do with Liberal leadership crises than anything else really. McGuinty for example was hounded out of office when he tried the same evil trick.

It's not their fault though, they're just playing the FPTP/AV system like it's meant to be played.
 
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equippedwithtowel

Member
firehawk12 said:
After Harper, we already know that minorities can be run like majorities because the opposition parties rarely want to be responsible for the fall of a government and get the blame for "wasting tax payer money" on an election.
Click to expand...

And I don't particularly trust the ONDP to hold the line on that. They've already shifted to the center during this election.
 
Y

You Are Viewtiful

Member
Simon Belmont said:
If the bank repossesses your car because you defaulted on a load, have you been bailed out?
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Repossesses and pays you for the car in full*. Oh and leave no official documents regarding the matter, hide it from the CRA etc.

Their corporate welfare fund was meant to be for creating jobs and investments. Picking winners and losers. Now they're just giving it to anyone.
 
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Simon Belmont

Banned
You Are Viewtiful said:
Repossesses and pays you for the car in full*. Oh and leave no official documents regarding the matter, hide it from the CRA etc.

Their corporate welfare fund was meant to be for creating jobs and investments. Picking winners and losers. Now they're just giving it to anyone.
Click to expand...

You're pissed about corporate welfare and you want the PC's in? I say this honestly, I have no idea where you stand politically other than to be pissed at the Libs. And if the deal isn't done there's nothing to report to the CRA. Do you usually report next years income this year?
 
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You Are Viewtiful

Member
I stand in the don't use ideas that haven't worked category. Corporate welfare is not even a left wing idea anyway. How is using public money to pay large, private, profitable companies progressive or even logical?

I was using that metaphorically in line with your bank analogy. I'm talking about how they weren't transparent to the people vote them on how money is being spent. They didn't report the bailout in their financials or talk about the planned repossession.
 
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Simon Belmont

Banned
You Are Viewtiful said:
I stand in the don't use ideas that haven't worked category. Corporate welfare is not even a left wing idea anyway. How is using public money to pay large, private, profitable companies progressive or even logical?

I was using that metaphorically in line with your bank analogy. I'm talking about how they weren't transparent to the people vote them on how money is being spent. They didn't report the bailout in their financials or talk about the planned repossession.
Click to expand...

So fuck em? Just take the loss, scrap the program and let the chips fall where they may? Why not walk away with at least a building. I'd rather a pragmatic leader than a dogmatic one.

And again, the deal wasn't done, so there's no reason to put it in the budget.
 
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Azih

Member
Yar the deal wasn't done so I think it's a non issue. PCs just digging for dirt and throwing it out there.. The million for twitter astroturfing is hilarious though. I wouldn't mind it if the tweets were obvious about being sponsored by the govt (a million seems like way tooo much for this though. Smells like corruption there).
 
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You Are Viewtiful

Member
You're either making desperate excuses or genuinely missing the forest for the trees

1) $300 million is not chump change. I don't want a building at the peak of the real estate bubble when it could be 10 km of BRT, 3,000 units of affordable housing, 3,000 nurse practitioners.
2) Why was this done in secret? It would not surprise me if we find out that this company ends up being a huge Liberal fundraiser, like Bruce handing $100k to the Liberals before they announce their $15 billion refurbishment.
3) What is practical about failed policy? The same policy that killed 350,000 manufacturing jobs or 100,000 net jobs since before the recession? Tell the 500 people in London working for Kellogs, the 700 people in Leamington working for Heinz, or the 2,000 people in Hamilton working for US Steel that corporate welfare is a thunderous success.

Australia and New Zealand got rid of agricultural subsidies entirely and now they have the most efficient and healthiest agri-food sector in the world. Literally doing absolutely nothing is better for the economy than corporate welfare. Only one who should get corporate welfare are infant industries, not large, profitable companies or companies on the verge of bankruptcy, it's completely backwards.

Azih said:
Yar the deal wasn't done so I think it's a non issue. PCs just digging for dirt and throwing it out there.. The million for twitter astroturfing is hilarious though. I wouldn't mind it if the tweets were obvious about being sponsored by the govt (a million seems like way tooo much for this though. Smells like corruption there).
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You can add that to the pile too.

Metrolinx sent out a huge advertising blitz right before the election too, along with the "Government of Ontario" touting its non-existent pension plan. No money is off limits for Ms. Wynne.
 
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elty

Member
The real problem is, why did the government get into the real estate business in the first place? I mean you can give out money to do research, but is it really necessary to build a brand new office tower when you have no tenant?

Edit: Just realized MaRS was actually established by PC premier Ernie Eves.
 
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Mr.Mike

Member
elty said:
The real problem is, why did the government get into the real estate business in the first place? I mean you can give out money to do research, but is it really necessary to build a brand new office tower?
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It was built so as to be able to accommodate laboratories, with larger load bearing capacity and higher ceilings.

The building is across the street from Queens Park anyway, so it makes sense to keep it and use it if they can.
 
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elty

Member
I don't think it really make sense, if it is built for laboratories then it is an overkill for regular office. I think at this stage, giving out the space to university or hospital may make more sense.

I am GUESSING the original plan is the government would build this thing for MaRS, then MaRS can become self sufficient (by collecting rent) and no longer require grants (which is apparently how they operate since the beginning), and at the same time provide a good facility for research, killing 2 birds in 1 stone.
 
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Mr.Mike

Member
The agreement would also provide revenue for the province through leasing out the rest of the space.

“To this date, that agreement is not final,” Ms. Wynne repeated while at a media event at Centennial College, adding the deal would also provide space to move in other government offices that are currently paying rent elsewhere.

“The Ontario government occupies more than seven million square feet in more than 100 buildings in Ontario. What this agreement would do, if it is finalized, is allow the consolidation of some of those government offices into a building that would be owned by the province.”
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It's not just lab space, it's also a lot of office space. From the gist of it the plan is to move a bunch of offices that are currently paying rent into this provincially owned office, ideally located right across the street from Queen's Park. Any unused space would then be rented out, providing revenue to the province. Presumably they would rent out the lab space to people who could actually use it.
 
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explodet

Member
I worked for 2 weeks in MaRS, working for a web development startup.

The "office" I worked in was obviously meant to be a secondary lab - it had a fume hood filled with programming books, racks meant for glass beakers, and an eye wash outside the door. Really cramped too.

It's not a bad space, just odd they're renting out labs as office space. Not to mention, I couldn't get a decent cup of coffee in that building to save my life. It started at Tim Hortons and went down from there.
 
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Azih

Member
I know someone who a few years ago said that MaRs was overpriced for use by startups... which is what it was meant for. Since there seems to be demand for standard office space they must be trying to recoup costs by renting out to non science folks. Ideally the place should be filled up by biotech type companies but that's not happening.

I don't think the 400 million itself is a bad move and I dont' think it is corrupt. I DO think it's a sad measure to try to recover from previous incompetence though.

The Liberals have a track record of finding impressive looking private partners for projects (P3 etc.), handing over responsibility, and then completely failing to do their due diligence to make sure the private partners are actually doing their job. ORNGE, Metrolinx, MaRs. It's incompetence pure and simple.

Edit: Let's not forget Brampton Civic. Man everything I've heard about that has been crazy.
 
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elty

Member
So it looked like the first phase was successful, but somehow they botch the second phase.

If you buy it back, you write off the loan and you get the office back.
If you let MaRS default, the end result is you still write off loan, and you get the office.

So it looks like at the end the cost is the same. If you let MaRS default though then it will be a reputation hit which is bad to attract investment - the original purpose of the MaRS. Assuming the purchase price is at fair value, this seems to be relatively non issue compared to the gas plant scandal, or the million job scam.

Also, about coffee:

Only eight other tenants had signed offers for space, according to the documents. Of those, four were retail food and coffee outlets, including a Starbucks and a Freshii.
Click to expand...
 
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explodet

Member
You can build a new bus shelter and there'd be a Starbucks inside it within a week.

Holy crap, the Ontario election is in two weeks?
That seems so fast. I gotta stop following US politics and its election cycles that last months if not years.

I guess there's always the Toronto mayoral election - I'll be hearing about that for the next five months.
 
F

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
explodet said:
You can build a new bus shelter and there'd be a Starbucks inside it within a week.
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I guess that's why Canada has the highest amount of Starbucks per capita.

explodet said:
Holy crap, the Ontario election is in two weeks?
That seems so fast. I gotta stop following US politics and its election cycles that last months if not years.

I guess there's always the Toronto mayoral election - I'll be hearing about that for the next five months.
Click to expand...
Advance polls open tomorrow for the Ontario election.
 
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Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Fuzzy said:
Advance polls open tomorrow for the Ontario election.
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I went and voted today... to no particular end, given that my riding is not whatsoever competitive. 3-term Liberal incumbent, >50% vote share all previous elections, unserious PC candidate that has faced allegations of actually living in Toronto (I thought this was a war crime, but apparently not), relatively unremarkable NDP candidate in a riding with no real NDP support.
 
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Mr.Mike

Member
So when are advance polls counted? Presumably not before election day, but do they count on election day before the polls close, or do they wait till the polls are closed before they start counting anything?
 
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maharg

idspispopd
Mr.Mike said:
So when are advance polls counted? Presumably not before election day, but do they count on election day before the polls close, or do they wait till the polls are closed before they start counting anything?
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In the last couple of elections I've watched, advance pools have been the last counted. You can tell because the last 'station' they count adds a huge number of votes.
 
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elty

Member
So Tim Hudek ruled out a coalition government. So what's going to happen if PC can only form a minority? Push out the 30% corporate tax cut and fire 100000 staff day 1 and another election after a month?
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
elty said:
So Tim Hudek ruled out a coalition government. So what's going to happen if PC can only form a minority?
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One of the following:
1) Hudak will magically un-rule out a coalition government and assume that political memory about reneging on a commitment not to will be shorter than the benefits of actually governing will last.
2) The Liberals and NDP will form a coalition government--as they could even if Hudak asked to form a coalition in a minority scenario.
3) The Liberals and NDP will fail to form a coalition government and the Lieutenant Governor will instruct the PCs to govern as a minority; the Liberals and NDP will hold their noses and the PCs will be able to govern for at least a few years. Hudak either behaves like a Harper and governs as though he has a majority and constantly uses brinskmanship to try to dare opposition members to force an election, or he behaves how minority governments are traditionally expected and predicted to behave and moderates his positions
4) The Liberals and NDP will fail to form a coalition government and the Lieutenant Governor will instruct the PCs to govern as a minority; the Liberals and NDP will immediately defeat the minority government and there'll be another election shortly, which would almost certainly benefit the PCs electorally.

I would be interested in seeing how a backfire on the part of any of the parties in a minority situation would ripple into the GTA election. Right now the only salient issue in the GTA appears to be transportation, but Toronto is big enough and the candidates are implicitly partisan enough that I could easily see a little bit of provincial mess rippling down.
 
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elty

Member
Pretty interesting:

Build Ontario up: “I believe government should be a force for good in people’s lives. So my plan is about creating jobs, investing in much-needed roads and transit, and providing fair pensions. Tim Hudak wants to make classrooms more crowded, cut teachers and health care, and somehow make our economy grow by firing a hundred thousand people. Those are the choices in this election. I want to build Ontario up, not tear it down. That’s what leadership is.”

Clear choices: “This election the choices are drawn very clearly. My focus is on creating well-paying jobs, investing in transportation, and providing a better pension so people can retire with dignity and security. Tim Hudak wants to fire a hundred thousand workers and make massive cuts to education, so he can balance the budget one year sooner and slash the taxes big corporations pay. I want to build Ontario up, not cut it down. That’s what leadership is.”
Click to expand...

Clear choices has a better net impact across everyone (including liberal, PC and NDP supporters), and is considered more positive and credible.
 
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BigJonsson

Member
Hudak just blamed Wynne for no subway stops getting built in Toronto when she was transit minister?

That is hilariously laughable coming from someone that was in cabinet when they filled in the Eglinton hole........and supported Rob Ford killing transit city
 
B

BigJonsson

Member
Hudak - The economist whose jobs plan has been discredited by actual economists for using bad math......

Hudak should ask his daughter for help
 
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You Are Viewtiful

Member
I'd say winners are:

1. Hudak
2. Horwath
3. Wynne

I wanted to put Wynne in 10th place but I couldn't think of anything humorous to put in between. The first question right off the bat was about Liberal scandals and she took a beating from the other two, and I don't think she ever recovered from that. She looked stone cold frozen in place, like she wanted to crawl into a cave and hide.
 
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