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[Lagamorph]

I'm pretty sure that the post was sarcastic. But I can see how it was not obvious given that this is practically the false theory that the supporters of independence throw around.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm man.

You are responding to a sarcastic post saying what pro-independence people think.

Totally missed the sarcasm.

Just as with Scotland, that's never been clear. Catalans are EU citizens, those in the queue are not.

And this is part of the reason why. It was perfectly clear with Scotland as well. It was written down in the EU rules and the EU even clarified it during the campaign, stating that Scotland would 100% leave the EU in the case of independence and have to go through the standard joining process the same as everyone else.

 

[Tyaren]

Bullshit. Catalonia will have to go through the full joining process the same as anyone else. There are plenty of countries already waiting to join that would cry foul if Catalonia was given special treatment and exemptions to bypass the queue and entry requirements.
Will Catalonia re-join the EU eventually? Most likely, but it'll be 3-4 years at a minimum, and that's assuming that they can meet all of the criteria right out of the gate.

Also, if just one member state blocks a country's EU entry, then there is no EU entry.
Guess what country would want to block Catalonia's entry? Small tip: The country that also threatened to block a seceded Scotland from entering the EU, because it might give Catalonia any ideas.

 

[His Majesty]

https://youtu.be/0J7I718Gs9A

More unwarranted violence from the Spanish government against peaceful protesters.

So which countries have condemned this violence so far? Scotland and Belgium? good job EU.

 

[Protome]

Also, if just one member state blocks a country's EU entry, then there is no EU entry.
Guess what country would want to block Catalonia's entry? Small tip: The country that also threatened to block a seceeded Scotland from entering the EU, because it might give Catalonia any ideas.

Can we please stop spreading this bullshit? that never happened. In fact, they consistently said the opposite.

 

[ecosse_011172]

It is 100% clear. The EU has always said these countries need to go through the regular process. Catalonia, or any other region that splits off into its own country, will need to join the EU through the process all the other countries have to take.

The only difference might be some speed, since a lot of regulations already line up.

AFAIK it was never made clear, during the Scottish referendum the EU said as little a possible.
If it weren't for the Spanish veto you could imagine it would be fast tracked but with the veto, Ive no idea how it would work.

 

[KingSnake]

Can we please stop spreading this bullshit? that never happened. In fact, they consistently said the opposite.

It happened before Brexit, around the Scottish independence referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/spain-independent-scotland-years-eu-membership

Now that UK is going out of EU anyhow is no longer an issue.

 

[psychowave]

Where the fuck is Rajoy in all of this? The vice-president spoke up to defend the police (because of fucking course she did), but what is our actual president doing right now? Stop hiding like a fucking coward.

 

[ClosingADoor]

AFAIK it was never made clear, during the Scottish referendum the EU said as little a possible.
If it weren't for the Spanish veto you could imagine it would be fast tracked but with the veto, Ive no idea how it would work.

It has been made clear time and time again. Literally the first result:

Independent Scotland 'would have to apply to join EU' – Brussels official
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says

Independent Catalonia would have to apply to join EU - Juncker
http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/14/independent-catalonia-will-have-to-apply-to-join-eu---juncker

Anyone saying otherwise just refuses to listen to what the EU has said multiple times now.

 

[PodcastFips]

But what's the point? It's very likely that in a few days Catalonia will no longer have a government or parliament.

If Spain wants to question its EU membership as a whole, sure.

 

[Protome]

https://youtu.be/0J7I718Gs9A

More unwarranted violence from the Spanish government against peaceful protesters.

So which countries have condemned this violence so far? Scotland and Belgium? good job EU.

Yeah, pretty fucked up. Regardless of your stance on this vote it should be pretty clear that Spain's response to it is blatantly evil. You don't assault voters and peaceful protesters like this, that's just insane.

It happened before Brexit, around the Scottish independence referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/spain-independent-scotland-years-eu-membership

Now that UK is going out of EU anyhow is no longer an issue.

Did you post the wrong link or something? Nothing in that articles speaks about Spain threatening to block Scotland. Only that Scotland would have had to reapply for membership on its own, which I wasn't arguing against.

 

[Westbahnhof]

https://youtu.be/0J7I718Gs9A

More unwarranted violence from the Spanish government against peaceful protesters.

So which countries have condemned this violence so far? Scotland and Belgium? good job EU.

I think to condemn this isn't on the EU, but rather on each individual nation.
But yes. The way this is handled is disgraceful, and every government should voice that.

 

[Dehnus]

Amazing how stupid that arsehole Rajoy is.
If they do nothing and the vote is no, then there's nothing to do. If the vote is yes then establish dialogue.
This despicable behaviour will convert many, many people to being pro independence, a complete and utter shitshow.
The spirit of Franco is alive and well

He fell right for the trap that the populist secession setup for him, together with what Putin's pawns have instigated.

It'll be a good lesson for other populist right wing leaders, Putin is NOT your friend. Putin wants to creat chaos, and he is smarter than you think. All this crap about:"my country first!" also means other countries will vie for that "first!" position. Including those that want to secede from your "ultra super strong nationalistic state!".

Stronger together seems to be lost on these people, which they see as some kind of "Cultural Marxist Plot to over throw them!". Soon Spain will be a lot less powerful in the Europe, and Rajoy can blame nobody.. but himself.

The same will be the case for the people in the secession movement that lie to their voters and promise them mansions in the sky. After they are done with their power trip, they'll find out they've only divided their friends and allies in Europe. Some against them and now former friends, others with them and now against their former friends.

More chaos, more violent discourse and less power or will to actually make decisions that can fix the issues in Europe. All with all, this is one game of chess Putin won without even having to sacrifice a pawn.

 

[KingSnake]

Rajoy should not be the Spanish prime-minister after today. Or ever.

 

[Ether_Snake]

"The majority is clearly against independence! The No will win! Take away their ballot boxes and arrest them all anyway! 300 injured? Fake news!!"

If this was in Russia, imagine the reaction.

 

[His Majesty]

I think to condemn this isn't on the EU, but rather on each individual nation.
But yes. The way this is handled is disgraceful, and every government should voice that.

Yeah I meant to say that most EU member states are disappointingly quiet on what's happening today.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Where the fuck is Rajoy in all of this? The vice-president spoke up to defend the police (because of fucking course she did), but what is our actual president doing right now? Stop hiding like a fucking coward.

Isn't that his tactic?, let's hide and do nothing and surely problems will solve themselves.

 

[hiska-kun]

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espa...ter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ECFDManual


Guardias Civiles being assaulted and being throwed stones.

Such democrats!

This is Sant Carles de la Rapita, have you seen what the police have done there?! 40 people injured by the police.

Are you expecting people to throw flowers after seeing ther families and friends being injured. This is Fascism!

 

[Orbis]

What's the general public consensus in Spain on how the Spanish Government are dealing with this? Are people more in favour of just ignoring the vote or the physical action of preventing it?

 

[barber]

Rajoy should not be the Spanish prime-minister after today. Or ever.

Hej, if this ends up with rajoy being impeached and with another party in the government I would learn catalonian as a thanks.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Totally missed the sarcasm.



And this is part of the reason why. It was perfectly clear with Scotland as well. It was written down in the EU rules and the EU even clarified it during the campaign, stating that Scotland would 100% leave the EU in the case of independence and have to go through the standard joining process the same as everyone else.

Go through a process, yes, but exactly how it would work was never clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says

“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”

He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.


It's not clear how fast tracked Scotland would be, I can imagine post Brexit there would be a lot of goodwill within the EU.

 

[psychowave]

Isn't that his tactic?, let's hide and do nothing and surely problems will solve themselves.

True. I can't possibly imagine him saying anything worthwhile anyway, besides "I resign".

Spoiler

es el vecino el que elige al alcalde y es el policía el que le parte la cara al vecino

 

[Tyaren]

Can we please stop spreading this bullshit? that never happened. In fact, they consistently said the opposite.

Wait a second, we are not talking about a seceded Scotland now after Brexit. We are talking about the Scottish independence referendum 2014, when Spain indeed threatened to block Scotland's immediate EU entry:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-independence-spain-alex-salmond-eu

 

[Westbahnhof]

Yeah I meant to say that most EU member states are disappointingly quiet on what's happening today.

I'm actually curious, how do representatives of government usually handle stuff like this?
It is weekend, Sunday. Is it possible this is a contributing factor to the relative silence?

 

[Dehnus]

This is Sant Carles de la Rapita, have you seen what the police have done there?! 40 people injured by the police.

Are you expecting people to throw flowers after seeing ther families and friends being injured. Fascist!

I picked your post out of many, but this tone just shows how the rethoric even is on GAF. You guys start attacking each other and being total arses. And I see you just "fixed" it, you called him a "Fascist" before. Now you just say "This is Fascism".

 

[SyenceLabb]

https://youtu.be/0J7I718Gs9A

More unwarranted violence from the Spanish government against peaceful protesters.

So which countries have condemned this violence so far? Scotland and Belgium? good job EU.

what the fuck

 

[Lagamorph]

Go through a process, yes, but exactly how it would work was never clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says

”An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic," said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. ”As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process."

He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect ”some kind of interim arrangement" while Scotland detached itself from the UK.


It's not clear how fast tracked Scotland would be, I can imagine post Brexit there would be a lot of goodwill within the EU.

There'd be no special arrangements, there wasn't even a hint or rumour of special arrangements except for things being spouted by the SNP. They were just saying that because Scotland has already implemented the standards of an EU member nation it would be a smoother process since they wouldn't need to go through a process of implementing such things in the national parliament all over again. They'd still have to go through the entire process from the EU's perspective though, any time saved wouldn't be 'fastracking' but simply time saved on the Scotland side.

Of course that ignores the other requirements such as the economic ones that the SNP had literally no plan for in the event of independence.

 

[Xando]

I'm actually curious, how do representatives of government usually handle stuff like this?
It is weekend, Sunday. Is it possible this is a contributing factor to the relative silence?

No offense to Catalonians but atleast here in germany not many people really gives a fuck about the referendum.

It’s not like politicians comment on riot police having a destruction derby in other countries

 

[Biggzy]

Honestly, what is the end game of the Spanish Government. They may well prevent an outcome to the vote this time but the calls for a vote will not end today.

The actions leading up to and including today will only push soft anti-independence voters to the pro side.

Surely it would have been better to allow the vote but state it is illegal, as I am positive there will not be enough votes for Catalonia to declare a uni-lateral declaration of independence, and start dialogue of allowing a vote or try and resolve other grievances.

 

[Godan]

https://twitter.com/AlbertLloreta/s...Update_7f52b7c2-a6ab-11e7-a532-0e234ea32aa6/0

Only just seen what going on. Being from Scotland and seeing how it went here for the voting i find it mad how this is happening over in Spain right now.

 

[Protome]

Wait a second, we are not talking about a seceded Scotland now after Brexit. We are talking about the Scottish independence referendum 2014, when Spain indeed threatened to block Scotland's immediate EU entry:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-independence-spain-alex-salmond-eu

Immediate entry, not entry in general. They said Scotland would have to reapply. Your original post seemed more clearly to be about Spain vetoing any entry to the EU by Catalonia, my apologies if I misunderstood your post and it was in fact about this instead.

My response still stands though, and you should have been clearer with your post. Spain never threatened to block Scottish entry to the EU, only some kind of immediate entry deal (which was never realistic anyway.)

 

[ClosingADoor]

Go through a process, yes, but exactly how it would work was never clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ould-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says

“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”

He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.


It's not clear how fast tracked Scotland would be, I can imagine post Brexit there would be a lot of goodwill within the EU.

What do you mean, it is not clear? There is a process to join the EU that every country needs to follow. If you create a new country, you go through that. That involved applying, the EU accepting the application, the country passing certain checks, taking over regulation, etc, etc. And the other countries voting during the process. The issue here was never a question whether Scotland or Catalonia would pass the checks (because obviously they will, since they already have the EU regulations and things in place). The issue was always, will the other countries accept them. And with Catalonia you can be sure Spain - and probably others like France and Italy - will veto it.

 

[Ahasverus]

I hope the "Catalonians are puppets" crowd shuts up forever. Spanish government is an incompetent, tyrannical shithole. Actually all provinces should secede.

 

[ecosse_011172]

What do you mean, it is not clear? There is a process to join the EU that every country needs to follow. If you create a new country, you go through that. That involved applying, the EU accepting the application, the country passing certain checks, taking over regulation, etc, etc. And the other countries voting during the process. The issue here was never a question whether Scotland or Catalonia would pass the checks (because obviously they will, since they already have the EU regulations and things in place). The issue was always, will the other countries accept them. And with Catalonia you can be sure Spain - and probably others like France and Italy - will veto it.

I was thinking of stuff like this:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...track-eu-membership-for-independent-scotland/

 

[His Majesty]

I'm actually curious, how do representatives of government usually handle stuff like this?
It is weekend, Sunday. Is it possible this is a contributing factor to the relative silence?

It's a pretty big deal here in Belgium, mainly because we have a government of which the largest party is pro-separatism. Spanish police violence is the current headline.

No idea what it's like in other countries but I can already see that the UK is also covering the events extensively.

So I would certainly expect nation leaders to be following the events closely as well, as this is an extremely important day for the future of the EU.

 

[Westbahnhof]

No offense to Catalonians but atleast here in germany not many people really gives a fuck about the referendum.

It’s not like politicians comment on riot police having a destruction derby in other countries

Exactly.
I'm Austrian and at most, people have heard of the referendum, but so far, nobody I talked to knew any details, or cared too much.

It's in the media, but people are like "shrug".
Of course, we got elections in 2 weeks, and we got local, elections in a part of the country today.
That's distracting.

 

[Oriel]

Also, if just one member state blocks a country's EU entry, then there is no EU entry.
Guess what country would want to block Catalonia's entry? Small tip: The country that also threatened to block a seceded Scotland from entering the EU, because it might give Catalonia any ideas.

You know, GAF has gotten really fucking annoying lately with the constant fear-mongering and bullshit regarding Catalan independence by a determined cohort of pro-Madrid posters. Lies, sneers, mocking the independence movement, etc.

Nothing of the sort was proclaimed by Spain regarding an independent Scotland, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Galava]

I hope the "Catalonians are puppets" shut up forever. Spanish government is an incompetent, tyrannical shithole. Actually all provinces should secede.

That would just be the same as digging our own graves together. If we want to change Spain, we have to get PPSOE out of the parliament, aka, vote on elections, not referendums. They are free to decide and vote, but I don't agree with them.

 

[Alx]

As if that weak ass chain is going to stop someone. Alternatively they could just cut open the urn (aka plastic box) and take everything out.

Or throw in lighter fluid and a lit match.

 

[Protome]

I was thinking of stuff like this:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...track-eu-membership-for-independent-scotland/

That largely stems from Scotland already meeting most of the requirements to the join the EU and nobody being opposed to them joining (despite bullshit posted about Spain.)

Doesn't really apply here because Spain would 100% definitely veto the Catalonia joining the EU.

 

[Ahasverus]

That would just be the same as digging our own graves together. If we want to change Spain, we have to get PPSOE out of the parliament, aka, vote on elections, not referendums. They are free to decide and vote, but I don't agree with them.

That's assuming you still want to be under a corrupt monarchy while your children go on hunger though.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I was thinking of stuff like this:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...track-eu-membership-for-independent-scotland/

This is after Brexit, not during the referendum vote. The situation is different. And even then, this is just some people wanting that, not all. And they are also not the only ones deciding. Of course you will have some politicians having different opinions, but the stance of the EU overall has always been: you go through the regular process.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

That's assuming you still want to be under a corrupt monarchy while your children go on hunger though.

What the fuck did I just read.

I mean, really? Do you really think that being against the referendum means that we support the Goverment and the monarchy?

What a load of bullshit.

 

[Kiraly]

Latest update from The Guardian

Voting has been slow because the electronic census used to count the ballot is down, and people are voting on paper. Stephen Burgen reports that police repression has been far from systematic. He says people from all over Catalonia are sending messages saying they are voting and there is no police presence.

 

[Tyaren]

My response still stands though, and you should have been clearer with your post. Spain never threatened to block Scottish entry to the EU, only some kind of immediate entry deal (which was never realistic anyway.)

That was indeed a threat by Spain/Rajoy, a very thinly veiled one. That is exactly how the international press in 2014 took it. Go read a few articles from that year.

I'd avise you to not as quickly accuse somebody of spreading bullshit, thanks. You clearly didn't even know I was talking about 2014 and not the Brexit referendum.

 

[Oriel]

Wait a second, we are not talking about a seceded Scotland now after Brexit. We are talking about the Scottish independence referendum 2014, when Spain indeed threatened to block Scotland's immediate EU entry:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-independence-spain-alex-salmond-eu

Stop!

Spain has said it would not veto an attempt by an independent Scotland to join the EU, in a boost to Nicola Sturgeon’s campaign for a second independence referendum and the clearest sign yet that Brexit has softened Madrid’s longstanding opposition to Scottish independence.

Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

 

[Protome]

That was indeed a threat by Spain/Rajoy, a very thinly veiled one. That is exactly how the international press in 2014 took it. Go read a few articles from that year.

I'd avise you not as quickly accuse somebody of spreading bullshit, thanks. You clearly didn't even know I was talking about 2014 and not the Brexit referendum.

Bit of a stretch there, but sure. I knew fine well you were talking about Indieref, Spain still didn't threaten to veto Scottish entry despite some people perhaps jumping to conclusions based on them saying the exact opposite...

If you want to try and say that Spain saying "Scotland will need to reapply to join the EU" is somehow them saying "We'll veto Scotland joining the EU" then that's on you, but I stand by calling that bullshit.

 

[ecosse_011172]

That largely stems from Scotland already meeting most of the requirements to the join the EU and nobody being opposed to them joining (despite bullshit posted about Spain.)

Doesn't really apply here because Spain would 100% definitely veto the Catalonia joining the EU.

Yes, fair enough.

 

[KingSnake]

Stop!



https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

Look at the date of the article and read again the post you are answering to.

 

[Tyaren]

Stop!



https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

You stop it. XD That is from 2017, we are talking about 2014. Scotland had its referendum in 2014. I'm not aware that Scotland had another one recently.

 

[His Majesty]

Spain is is one of five EU members which has not recognized Kosovo so far (also UDI). There is simply no chance they will recognize Catalonia.

So either Catalonia won't be able to join the EU or the EU will have to change its joining rules. Truly a sad state of affairs.