If we end up with Tory governments in perpetuity, which now, finally, does seem unlikely, then not really. The whole UK is being marched into a corporate focused US style quagmire, everything we hold dear being sold off and fucked up by their extreme neo capitalist policies, meanwhile Scots want their NHS protected and more left wing policies. Brexit is the ultimate shambles and one Scotland is being dragged into against its will as some 60+% of us wanted to remain. At what point does your nation being continuously outvoted on stuff become an issue requiring taking control of your own affairs?
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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If we end up with Tory governments in perpetuity, which now, finally, does seem unlikely, then not really. The whole UK is being marched into a corporate focused US style quagmire, everything we hold dear being sold off and fucked up by their extreme neo capitalist policies, meanwhile Scots want their NHS protected and more left wing policies. Brexit is the ultimate shambles and one Scotland is being dragged into against its will as some 60+% of us wanted to remain. At what point does your nation being continuously outvoted on stuff become an issue requiring taking control of your own affairs?
Because the EU is a supranational body of nations that doesn't want to weaken the current bloc by encouraging separatism and irredentism in its own members. If Macron wants any kind of further EU integration he needs to avoid the current members splitting up into more nations, requiring more negotiations on things like trade deals.
What's next, do the Tyrol Italians who feel more Austrian than Italian threaten to leave? Does the Belgian state collapse as the country splits in two?
It would be analogous to the US allowing Texas or California to secede, it's a ludicrous notion.
If you think the Kremlin hasn't been supporting the nationalist and secessionist navel gazers all across the continent you haven't been paying fucking attention.
That isn't to say the Spanish government does not share a lot of blame for not dealing with this better from the outset.
The rapid and sudden desire for Catalan independence...why has it gotten to this point? How will an independent Catalonia survive? A country that wouldn't be able to support itself and would need handouts and free themselves from Spanish "oppression"?
After they form their bankrupt state how will they support themselves? Become a parasitic tax haven (let's be honest, that is the only choice)?
Fuck that.
I do find it incredibly stupid but then again nationalism is founded on a bedrock of stupidity.
That isn't to say the Spanish government does not share a lot of blame for not dealing with this better from the outset.
The rapid and sudden desire for Catalan independence...why has it gotten to this point? How will an independent Catalonia survive? A country that wouldn't be able to support itself and would need handouts and free themselves from Spanish "oppression"?
After they form their bankrupt state how will they support themselves? Become a parasitic tax haven (let's be honest, that is the only choice)?
Fuck that.
I do find it incredibly stupid but then again nationalism is founded on a bedrock of stupidity.
Harrison Bergeron
Member
It's just crazy to me that FCB is playing behind closed doors. What a mess all of this is. Should have moved the match to later in the year or something.
It's also virtually irrelevant for the whole Catalonian situation. The opinions, arguments and feelings involved have as much to do with Russia as a discussion about vegetarianism has with Hitler.
Take Russia out of the equation and the situation in Catalonia looks exactly the same, maybe with a bit less money on the separatist side.
sechsterangriff
Member
With all this repression there's no way anti central government sentiment won't rise. On the other hand I can't help but think the Catalonia government was praying the situation would end like this, as this will will surely change a lot of people's political stances regarding independence.
Catalonia have wanted to be independent for ages?
One minute people are telling me Catalonia just wants independence because theyre a wealthier part of Spain and dont want to put more money into Spain than they get back, now theyre a bankrupt region?
For sure Russia is destabilising everything everywhere while Putin controls Russia with an iron fist.. that doesnt delegitimise the movements for independence though. They do actually have merit, and in Catalonia and Scotland they are wholly peaceful and democratic movements. Just because Russia might like it to happen doesnt automatically make it bad, and doesnt (as far as Scotland is concerned and my view of the independence movement) have fucking anything to do with Russia or weakening the UK, its putely to take control of our own affairs and focus on the things we care about.
jakonovski
Member
Is that true? Has there really been a super majority for independence for ages?
Anyone telling you this is a clown.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Heading towards civil war I see.
Police beating fire men is not a particularly good look:
https://mobile.twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/914473277443031041/video/1
Police beating fire men is not a particularly good look:
https://mobile.twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/914473277443031041/video/1
Wouldn't that hurt mostly the Catalan population?
Here's the thing though, European govts are increasingly seeing the Russians as a strategic threat to their countries and EU as a whole. If they see Kremlin attempts at fostering secessionist movements inside the EU they will want to bring the hammer down hard on any future attempts at an independence vote. So good luck there Venice.
It's dumb on the part of Russia because any possible success on the part of secessionist movements that might have potentially helped Moscow is now thst bit more harder to acheive.
I would hope that independence movements throughout Europe steer well clear of Russian provocateurs, reject their offers of support and tell RT crews asking for interviews to kindly fuck right off. Make clear that an independent Scotland/Catalonia/whatever is fully supportive of NATO and the EU and opposes Russian meddling in European affairs.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The rise of the independence, has little to do with russia and much more with the central goverment. But the catalonian nationalism has been part of our society for ages.
ClosingADoor
Member
Earlier in the thread someone said support went from 11% to 48% over the last few years. It seems the financial crisis, Euro crisis and Spain's current government contributed to this renewed support for independence. All things that could theoretically be fixed perfectly fine without needing to go independent.
Harrison Bergeron
Member
Yeah, I don't know what was meant by "suddenly."
Spain has always been composed of a whole bunch of hardly willing participants.
I might be generalizing but I think folks not fully aware of what is happening mix pro-independence with pro-referendum. Being against the referendum is simply stupid. Against independence is OK. I know people that would definitely vote for no but are absolutely in favor of a referendum.
I think by strike they mean until they are needed. But judging by the video posted I doubt some could put out a fire now. Dude getting beaten around the head for protesting.
What?!
gutter_trash
Banned
Rajoy is a failure on both sides
People just standing with their hands up, peaceful, as a line of police come barging in and hitting them with massive batons... this is not what we should be seeing in a modern European democratic nation. For shame Spain.
Proportionate? #CalatanReferendum https://twitter.com/historicalpics/status/914492012728070145
Proportionate? #CalatanReferendum https://twitter.com/historicalpics/status/914492012728070145
No, but there hasn't even been one one month ago. People wanted a referendum, yes, but most polls showed a quite comfortable margin for staying with Spain.
Thanks to Rajoy, that's probably no longer the case.
Oh, and in case someone wonders how international media is reacting to this, Austrian broadcaster ORF had a headline around noon saying "39 injured by police brutality". Usually, the phrasing is more passive, e.g., "39 injured during the referendum". It's highly unusual to straight up call out the police.
Considering what the actual Russian response would be to an area of Russia trying to secede, this might be the dumbest post in the thread.
No, I don't need to take it out. The facts are:
* They funded separatists and populists on either side of the spectrum
* They did so to sow chaos and make all decision making in the EU slower if not destabilize the entire union all together.
These two things are certainly a part of what happens here and Rajoy is an idiot fascist that fell for it. He should have just let the vote go through and then deal with the outcome. He was out played by the Kremlin, and now will have to deal with a far weaker Spain.
I know you probably don't like hearing it, maybe you have feelings for groups the Kremlin funded, and that is annoying I know (my political choices are also in that area
). But denying it makes it all the more lethal. Allowing the Kremlin to go about it without any heed paid to this meddling, is far more dangerous.And no it isn't like "vegetarianism = HITLER!", that is a way to try and shut up an argument in your favour a cheap way. And you just used it by proxy. The opinions and arguments are things I also noted, and they annoy me, the way I see Gaffers shout at each other is just.. idiotic. I think I made a few posts of that already in here. But to remove the "Putin Factor" from this is to deny that he has been influencing these things all over Europe including spreading fake news (Not the news talked about in this topic, most of those links are just news sources. Not artificial news created by Trolls to get an effect.).
And frankly denying that is just really harmful.
To change their joining rules I'm sure Spain would have to agree. And I'm not sure why they would, this is a unilateral referendum that breaches the constitution that Catalonia itself ratified by a massive majority in 1978. Having said that, the violence from the police, I mean it's just mind boggling. I don't know what the fuck Spain is playing at here, it's outrageous.
There's sort of the reverse of this in Ireland. At some point in the next few decades there'll be a vote for Northern Ireland to leave the UK and join Ireland, but it will take place in both Ireland and Northern Ireland and it won't go through unless both sides agree.
Finally managed to vote. The school I was assigned to vote is right next to a Mossos (Catalan police) HQ and everything went smoothly. Worth noting that people are staying outside of the schools to support the volunteers there and in case Spanish police comes to visit. The ambient was joyful with people from all ages clapping every now and then.
This video of a guy voting with the Spanish flag and being cheered is making the rounds on my feed. Another proof of the terrible persecution unionists suffer around here.
https://twitter.com/xavicantons/status/914433580897570816
This video of a guy voting with the Spanish flag and being cheered is making the rounds on my feed. Another proof of the terrible persecution unionists suffer around here.
https://twitter.com/xavicantons/status/914433580897570816
This is what I meant by sudden. I don't think there has ever been a supermajority for independence either.
I do like how people are hand waving away the Russian angle, not like we have mountains of evidence of Russian coordinated social media campaigns in both the US and UK.
The Spanish government shares a lot of the blame but the Russian side of things is in no way irrelevant.
No, I don't need to take it out. The facts are:
* They funded separatists and populists on either side of the spectrum
* They did so to sow chaos and make all decision making in the EU slower if not destabilize the entire union all together.
These two things are certainly a part of what happens here and Rajoy is an idiot fascist that fell for it. He should have just let the vote go through and then deal with the outcome. He was out played by the Kremlin, and now will have to deal with a far weaker Spain.
I know you probably don't like hearing it, maybe you have feelings for groups the Kremlin funded, and that is annoying I know (my political choices are also in that area
And no it isn't like "vegetarianism = HITLER!", that is a way to try and shut up an argument in your favour a cheap way. And you just used it by proxy. The opinions and arguments are things I also noted, and they annoy me, the way I see Gaffers shout at each other is just.. idiotic. I think I made a few posts of that already in here. But to remove the "Putin Factor" from this is to deny that he has been influencing these things all over Europe including spreading fake news (Not the news talked about in this topic, most of those links are just news sources. Not artificial news created by Trolls to get an effect.).
And frankly denying that is just really harmful.
Whos denying it? Denying its significance, yeah, but for sure its happening to an extent or another. Russia is just interfering with everyone everywhere, just in the off chance it will benefit them in the end. So what, we just stop...?
Catalan police defend people in Vielha, one of the agents crying https://t.co/iM79SoPFCe
Look at this shit...
https://twitter.com/IRAQPICS1/status/914487181569331200
Look at this shit...
https://twitter.com/IRAQPICS1/status/914487181569331200
This increased support for independence started after the Constitutional Court of Spain basically killed and dismembered the new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia approved by the Catalans via referendum in 2006. In later years they formally asked for a new fiscal pact and were rejected. Then asked for a legal referendum and were rejected (all of this during the PP majority). All those things have been building up, and if you add the economical situation caused by the 2008 recession, there you have it.
But Catalan nationalism and the aspiration for an independent Catalan state goes back centuries.
I haven't seen anyone defend Rajoy here thank God.
mehrmantrout
Member
Obviously its not that simple but its clear Russia is having a hand in the proganda war, I can't find the article but 5 of the top 10 tweeters on the Catalonia hashtag last week were connected to Russia
https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-independence-0a83cd016972/
Its what they do, jump on a hashtag to reap discord, same as its been revealed this week that they did with BLM and others
RocknRola
Member
That's disgusting, revolting.
And btw, this is exactly the sort of message the international media is showing, the violent acts that are occuring today.
Fucking hell. Awful.
His Majesty
Banned
https://web.archive.org/web/20120620185859/http://www.icps.es/sondeigs.asp?con=35&apr=1
Already in the 90s support for independence was around 30%, not sure where the 11% number is coming from.
There is no intention of Russia to take Catalan. The Kremlin only wants chaos, and with Spain soon out of the picture, both NATO and EU are seriously weakened. It has nothing to do with "expanding" or getting their way in the future. It has to do with destabilizing and creating chaos in your adversary. Spain will be reeling from this for decades to come, and thus it will affect both the EU and NATO.
In a minor way, there would just be some slow down in EU decision making, but this is more than the Kremlin could have hoped for. Rajoy signed Spain's death-warrant on an EU stage, and he doesn't even realise it. Had Rajoy just allowed the referendum and then worked with the Catalans to give them a bit more what they wanted, it would never have blown up and would have only slowed down a few decisions EU wise.
But due to this Franco loving Fascist, wanting to act like a big boy for his constituency? Basically a "RAAH LOOK AT HOW TOUGH I AM! SOOOO TOUGH!" he squeezed so hard that all of the price ran through his fingers and into the ground. He was goaded into this and lost big time. Rajoy is an idiot, and frankly doesn't deserve to be anywhere near a ruling position at any given time in his life. Sadly, being the populist that he is, he probably will remain and is only a few remarks like "LOOK AT THOSE LEFTIES TRYING TO BAN OUR NATIONAL TRADITION OF BULLFIGHTING!!" away from getting his votes.
The Catalans are right he is a fascist arsehole and needs to be dealt with. But so are those that call out the effects of what happened here. Europe got a lot weaker today, and we have Franco's children to thank for it.
Heck if he keeps on this path? He'll be steering to a civil war. The man's a total idiot and still doesn't see what he is doing.
Catalonia independence has been a thing for decades. Blaming every little political discourse at the feet of Russia and Putin is laughable.
Man injured in eye with rubber bullet in violent police attack in Catalonia (VIDEO) https://t.co/kjTsRXrviw #CatalanReferendum https://t.co/aOAh9GBdrE
Waits for May to say something about thia shit....
Waits for May to say something about thia shit....
He wanted people to stop talking about it all together. Thus wished to stop talking about it and act like it "doesn't happen".
veryslowhand
Banned
People voting without ID, democratic.
Nobody is blaming them! And I know it is hard to admit if you're in a group that is actively goaded by the Kremlin ( I know, I'm in one, it makes things very hard sometimes to deal with people that fell for the propaganda
).This is not just some "little political discourse" though, this is CIVIL WAR if Rajoy keeps pressing this shit. It would be the best outcome EVER for the Kremlin. I mean just look at the discourse here on GAF, and how easily Spanish and Catalan people are attacking each other. EVEN HERE! It doesn't take much to destabilize everything, and it has been proven that they've been prodding the Catalonian movement for some time.
A movement I agree with by the way, but I just do not agree with how this is ending up to become a very destabilizing factor for the entirety of Europe. Rajoy is an idiot, and is the main blame for all of what happened here. But to ignore that this is exactly what the Kremlin wanted is to ignore that Emperor Tinyhands had dealings with them before the election.
Both would be stupid.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Some would argue that Spain has never been a modern European democratic nation
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