Like how that is your take on the whole thing
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Like how that is your take on the whole thing
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Both takes are reasonable though. Rajoy is a scumbag who should not be prime minister anymore, but also the Catalan government doesn't care one bit for the rules.
Because the telematic system has been shut down by the Spanish police as well as the Internet connection in schools and other voting centres, so in some places they don't have access to the digital census.
Amazing how people blame the Catalan government of being undemocratic when the reasons for all those "undemocratic" situations during today's referendum are directly caused by the Spanish government.
And people are showing their ID when voting and a manual registration list is being created, if I'm not wrong. Some places still have access to the digital systems too.
You can believe that there are large amounts of people legitimately trying to achieve independence for Catalonia and also believe that Russia is attempting to magnify the conflict and division between pro-independence Catalans and the rest of Spain (and between Spain and the rest of the EU). And saying that Russia is attempting this is not the same as saying that Catalans are all being brainwashed by Russian propaganda.
It definitely isn't an either/or situation.
It definitely isn't an either/or situation.
If Catalonia want to have a vote on independence let them and then respect the decision. I say that for every region that wants a vote on it.
I think you are missing the point.
The referendum should comply with the basic rules of voting, to limit fraud.
I get what you are in about and they couldn't do the basic rules as they were stopped from doing so.
Do you think this referendum is constitutional?
I also read there isn't a minimum turnout requirement, is that true?
Sun Bather
Member
Here comes peaceful block of voting
30yearsofhurt
Member
So the police with riot shields and tear gas are there to observe the voting eh? Or is threatening your own citizens with sanctioned violence part of the rules?
BTW when did Franco die?
Rajoy is acting shitty, but the referendum is illegal. If the Catalan politicians would really want to solve the situation and not have personal gains from controversy they would first fight to get a legal referendum. Take a lesson from SNP's book. First win big in elections to force the hand of the government.
They are doing this just for show off and in the end the people are those getting hurt.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
There are quite a few countries where proof of ID is not required at the polls. I simply have to know my date of birth and address, and that's just matched against the electoral register.
SyenceLabb
Member
Here comes peaceful block of voting
They're not voting legally though.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
So if the referendum is unconstitutional then how is it ondemocratic? Imagine Texas holding a referendum like this. You don't think the US government would so everything in their power to stop it?
However, how the Spanish government is handling this is ridiculous. Just let the referendum take place and tell them they can't secede.
However, how the Spanish government is handling this is ridiculous. Just let the referendum take place and tell them they can't secede.
That's not what is happening here. Even so, is that possible under the Spanish law?
jakonovski
Member
Being concerned about voting procedures is a bit beside the point of what is happening today. In fact I would say completely irrelevant.
The referendum is only illegal because the Spanish government deem it so.
This referendum is illegal because the Constitutional Court (that is not part of the judicial power and their members are elected by the legislative power, so they're 100% partisan) said that it was illegal. The Constitution itself does not talk about whether or not the regions can make referendums (Catalonia has had referendums regarding other issues in the past, like the Estatute of Autonomy of 2006).
That's beyond the point of what I'm saying though. The other user was implying that the referendum is undemocratic because there's no control over who is voting. That may be so, but that's because the telematic system and all the measures put in place by the Catalan administration have been put down by the Spanish police, not because the referendum was designed to be undemocratic in the first place.
And voting is always democratic.
And why can't they secede?
The Spanish constitution isn't divinely ordained. Self-determination is a fundamental right, if the Spanish constitution is standing in the way of that then it is the constitution which is wrong.
Jack Videogames
Member
Oh, that makes it different! Kick their guts out!
SyenceLabb
Member
The fact so many people are focusing on the legality of it while people are being physically brutalized raises an eyebrow for me.
curi0usBystander
Member
No. Under spanish law you need to present an ID (be it a national ID card, a driver's license or a passport).
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
No. There is a mandatory government-issued ID that you must have on you at all times, and that is used.
It had no guarantees since it was announced back in June for the 1st October. And more so when the Transition Law they passed was passed without the presence of the opposition in the Parlament, AFTER modifying its rulebook to allow for passing laws in a single day.
Their Transition Law gives way to a profoundly undemocratic provisional constitution and an equally terrible constitutive process.
And thus useless. If you want to do it peacefully you have to do it legally. The other option would be war.
SyenceLabb
Member
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Those in favour of Catalan independence have literally no way of doing what you advocate, though. They can't force the Spanish state's hand, since the territorial integrity of Spain is entrenched in the Spanish constitution. The only way round change this would be for two-thirds of Spanish voters to agree, which will never happen regardless of what Catalan politicians do or do not do. So I do not think your advice is genuine, since even some basic consideration should disclude it.
It is de facto impossible for Catalunya to hold this referendum legally. Therefore, the law is wrong.
And yet there is no need for violence from the riot police towards people who want to vote. That isn't democracy, that is fascism as i see it.
The Spanish government are the ones to blame. If a region wants a vote on independence let them. If a region then votes for independence then allow it. It's disgusting that people can't have their wishes. Even more disgusting violence is used to stop protests
Madrugador
Member
Nothing justifies this level of violence really. I feel sorry for the Catalonian people.
I wonder how many constitutions allow self-determination.
As a Spaniard, today is a pretty sad day.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
They won't let us do it legally.
This is such fucking nonsense it's unreal. This is Europe's failing; an inability to take advantage of what the EU offers to allow these necessary, fundamental realignments of the hodge-podge states that emerged barely a few centuries ago into bodies more closely aligned to the true nations within rather than the manufactured nations imposed from above.
And Catalonia is basically the richest part of Iberia. The idea that they need handouts from an impoverished "Spanish" state is ludicrous.
https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914504283713875968
This is very sad
As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.
This is very sad
As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.
I.....never said that!
https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914504283713875968
This is very sad
As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.
What the FUCK
What a fucking thug to throw someone like that just because they bumped into you.
As soon as the debate turns political we Spaniards can't grasp simple logic or comprehend any nuance to any matter. Both sides inhabit fantasy worlds where the others are all fairy tale ogres. Everyone screaming "CIVIL WAR!!1!" everywhere should just clue you in as to the degree in which they have a hard on for the other side. This helps support incredibly flimsy narratives in both sides that don't stand any thorough examination. You gotta wonder about the mental gymnastics allowing both the Spanish and Catalonian politicians to come out on TV and keep a straight face saying certain things. If everyone was actually honest from the beginning in what they are after negotiations may have actually been possible. But they aren't, because regardless of where you stand those on the other side are always a bunch of subhuman, violent fascists tearing down democracy who deserve nothing but to be jailed for life.
They don't have to force PP's hand. They have to get enough votes to count in the general elections. Get on board with other parties and throw PP under the bus. Get the promise of a properly organised referendum. Fight step by step. This is a farce, really. Even ignoring the fact that it's illegal, It's a referendum without minimum required presence and without proper anti-fraud measures.
And just to be clear, I think that Catalonia should get a referendum.
Pay close attention because this is happening to the EU in what is democracy being suppressed.
Even in the netherlands our politicians are willing to shutdown a referendum. You know why? Because there afraid of the people letting there voice heard. That grows towards fascism also since they don't want you to hear your opinion or yes or no.
RocknRola
Member
Catalonia has been trying to get rid of Spain for centuries. As far back as the 1600's. This didn't pop up out of the blue. It's a sentiment that has been present in that region for a long time.
As for the escalation of things for this event, both sides are to blame but mostly the Spanish goverment in this particular situation. This violent approach, with the police and judicial authorities stopping people from voting by any means necessary will only further play against them (Spain).
https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914504283713875968
This is very sad
As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.
Again, disgusting and revolting.
We in Ireland frequently vote without ID as long as we have a polling card. Weak attempt at discrediting the poll.
Madrugador
Member
Man, some people talk like there have never been a country splitting from Spain.
It started 200 years ago and I was just celebrating it last week. Best thing ever honestly.
Lots of "illegal" stuff happend back in the day. It sure was hard, but after one point, it can all be progress.
It started 200 years ago and I was just celebrating it last week. Best thing ever honestly.
Lots of "illegal" stuff happend back in the day. It sure was hard, but after one point, it can all be progress.
https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914504283713875968
This is very sad
As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.
Beating an injured man on his way to the ambulance. I wish the worst to every single one of them and to the politicians who are allowing this.
Wait, what?
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