Support NeoGAF

[Pep Guardiola]

https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914504283713875968

This is very sad

As catalan that am I, this is one of the saddest days of my life.

disgusting

 

[30yearsofhurt]

We in Ireland frequently vote without ID as long as we have a polling card. Weak attempt at discrediting the poll.

Wait, what?

In Australia we don't supply ID either. Are we undemocratic?

 

[Frankfurter]

This is handled so poorly, disgusting :/ Whatever the stance of the people was just yesterday, add +20% for the independence side to it.

 

[Chittagong]

Are we going to conveniently forget EU article 7 now that it would apply to a western EU country?

 

[Walshicus]

Wait, what?

I'm English and I have NEVER provided any form of ID to vote.

 

[Beefy]

Are we going to conveniently forget EU article 7 now that it would apply to a western EU country?

Should be brought in.

 

[ramparter]

The voting is illegal because they werent given the chance to vote legally. Everyone using the legality argument is a hypocrite.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

They don't have to force PP's hand. They have to get enough votes to count in the general elections. Get on board with other parties and throw PP under the bus. Get the promise of a properly organised. Fight step by step. This is a farce, really. Even ignoring the fact that it's illegal, It's a referendum without minimum required presence and without proper anti-fraud measures.

And just to be clear, I think that Catalonia should get a referendum.

With respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. Throwing the PP under the bus does nothing.

Section 2 of the Preliminary Title of the Spanish constitution makes the granting of independence unconditional. The central Spanish government, even with a simple majority, would not be able to grant Catalunya independence. They could possibly grant them a referendum, although I suspect even this would be challenged in the courts, but it would be entirely powerless and pointless. Even if Catalunya voted Yes, the Spanish government could not legally grant them independence with a simple majority.

The only way around this would be for the Spanish constitution to be amended. This requires two-thirds of the House to vote in favour, for the House to be dissolved, for an election to be held, and then for two-thirds of the new House to be in favour. However, there is no realistic situation in which Catalan politicians, regardless of how well they perform in Catalunya or what alliances they make in the Spanish legislature, can ever drive the PP and other unionist representatives below the one-third mark.

So there is no legal way Catalunya can become independent. They have no choice except unilateralism.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

They don't have to force PP's hand. They have to get enough votes to count in the general elections. Get on board with other parties and throw PP under the bus. Get the promise of a properly organised referendum. Fight step by step. This is a farce, really. Even ignoring the fact that it's illegal, It's a referendum without minimum required presence and without proper anti-fraud measures.

And just to be clear, I think that Catalonia should get a referendum.

This, so much. We were extremely close to having a leftwing coalition last year, PP is a minority party, they are very unpopular among the young.

 

[Zabojnik]

I stand by my Iberian brothers.

 

[Beefy]

The voting is illegal because they werent given the chance to vote legally. Everyone using the legality argument is a hypocrite.

Yep

 

[KingSnake]

In Australia we don't supply ID either. Are we undemocratic?

I'm English and I have NEVER provided any form of ID to vote.

I even bolded the words. I had the impression that Oriel is Catalan.

Also, Spanish law requires an ID.

 

[Soph]

Painful to watch

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I even bolded the words. I had the impression that Oriel is Catalan.

Also, Spanish law requires an ID.

Spanish law doesn't allow for this to begin with. We are in this precise situation exactly because Spanish law does not allow for democratic exercise. You can't cite the law when the law is unjust.

If Spanish law wanted an orderly referendum, it shouldn't have made such referendums unconstitutional.

 

[KingSnake]

With respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. Throwing the PP under the bus does nothing.

Section 2 of the Preliminary Title of the Spanish constitution makes the granting of independence unconditional. The central Spanish government, even with a simple majority, would not be able to grant Catalunya independence. They could possibly grant them a referendum, although I suspect even this would be challenged in the courts, but it would be entirely powerless and pointless. Even if Catalunya voted Yes, the Spanish government could not legally grant them independence with a simple majority.

The only way around this would be for the Spanish constitution to be amended. This requires two-thirds of the House to vote in favour, for the House to be dissolved, for an election to be held, and then for two-thirds of the new House to be in favour. However, there is no realistic situation in which Catalan politicians, regardless of how well they perform in Catalunya or what alliances they make in the Spanish legislature, can ever drive the PP and other unionist representatives below the one-third mark.

So there is no legal way Catalunya can become independent. They have no choice except unilateralism.

Unilateralism means war or violent rebellion if there's no legal way.

 

[And_Gignac]

It has been a displeasure to confirm yet again and through the lovely pages of El País that the fishhook theory is real and that liberals / centrist rather side with proto fascism that with the democracy they said to love so much.

Fuck Mariano Rajoy and fuck his enablers.

 

[CrunchyB]

Even in the netherlands our politicians are willing to shutdown a referendum. You know why? Because there afraid of the people letting there voice heard. That grows towards fascism also since they don't want you to hear your opinion or yes or no.

That's because our previous (EU) referendums were dumb as hell, you shouldn't use a referendum to determine abstract and complicated questions like a trade agreement with Ukraine. That's what the elected government is for.

But if, say, Limburg or Friesland want to have a referendum to secede they can go right ahead, nobody will stop them.

 

[dude]

Police beating the shit out of people holding their arms up vs people voting "illegally".
This is one of the stupidest "both sides though" arguments ever.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Unilateralism means war if there's no legal way.

Only if Spain choses to pursue war. If they do, that puts them even more in the wrong.

 

[vonStirlitz]

This will birth a new generation of Baader Meinhof types.

 

[KingSnake]

Only if Spain choses to pursue war. If they do, that puts them even more in the wrong.

What's the option if you say that Spain can't grant them independence even if they wanted anyway?

 

[ecosse_011172]

Are we going to conveniently forget EU article 7 now that it would apply to a western EU country?

I suppose so, deafening silence from the EU.

 

[Beefy]

I suppose so, deafening silence from the EU.

And many leaders. I have only seen corbyn (UK opposition leadee) talking about it.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I suppose so, deafening silence from the EU.

No shock, bunch of elitist cronies in the end part of me is quite glad for the first time we are leaving.

 

[cromofo]

This is some fascist shit

 

[Jack Videogames]

Forgot to use my sarcasm tags

All cool then

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What's the option if you say that Spain can't grant them independence even if they wanted anyway?

Unilateral independence. Spain would refuse to recognise it, of course, but that's really the only option available here. Eventually the two sides would probably want to normalise relations and the current generation of PP voters die off, and Spain will be able to change the constitution since it won't be a hot issue.

For what it is worth, I'm intuitively a unionist, although I have no specific opinion on Catalunya since that is for the Catalan people to decide. I'm just pointing out what the current available paths look like.

 

[Arksy]

I don't know much about this issue, but god damn this seems like a good way to get a lot of people on the fence to back independence.

 

[marcbret87]

Being concerned about voting procedures is a bit beside the point of what is happening today. In fact I would say completely irrelevant.

It's totally not. The response of the central government is terrible, they should have allowed the vote to take place and then take action after. But the fact that the Catalan government is showing absolute disregard for the legitimacy of voting procedures tells me that they did not care about the result of the referendum, what is happening now is exactly what they wanted.

 

[Metroxed]

Spanish police attacking and shoving Catalan police:

https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914497465742655493

 

[KingSnake]

Unilateral independence. Spain would refuse to recognise it, of course, but that's really the only option available here. Eventually the two sides would probably want to normalise relations and the current generation of PP voters die off, and Spain will be able to change the constitution since it won't be a hot issue.

The current Catalan government lacks yet the basic legitimacy (after the last elections) for that kind of unilateral action. That's my point.

An illegal referendum with under 50% presence won't bring that either.

 

[Crow Pudding]

465 injured people, a few critical.

In my neighborhood all was fine, some hundred people voting without any incident.

 

[ecosse_011172]

No shock, bunch of elitist cronies in the end part of me is quite glad for the first time we are leaving.

Your fucking government is doing no better.

 

[Machina]

Spanish police attacking and shoving Catalan police:

https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914497465742655493

This is really getting ugly now, and the indignity of the Spanish Interior Ministry doing nothing but smearing the other side on their social media does them no favors.

 

[Walshicus]

The current Catalan government lacks yet the basic legitimacy (after the last elections) for that kind of unilateral action. That's my point.

An illegal referendum with under 50% presence won't bring that either.

Can you please stop saying "illegal" as if that actually means shit.

The Spanish state is incapable of conducting itself in such a way as to allow for a diplomatic solution, so of course any such referendum will be considered illegal by their bullshit laws.

And I think you'll find after today that there is only one party lacking democratic legitimacy, and it's not the Catalonian government.

 

[jmga]

Police breaks a woman's fingers.

https://twitter.com/diariARA/status/914508817257418752

https://twitter.com/DaniMateoAgain/status/914467943966236673

 

[Beefy]

Catalan protestor just ran onto the Barca pitch aha

 

[TheRealTalker]

been seeing the footage online and can only say

wow, Spain, just wow

from Nazi salutes to praising Franco to high police brutality

of course this isn't everyone but this is really making the whole situation drastically worse

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The current Catalan government lacks yet the basic legitimacy (after the last elections) for that kind of unilateral action. That's my point.

An illegal referendum with under 50% presence won't bring that either.

I agree. My point is merely: as long as the PP continues to frustrate a legitimate referendum, Catalan nationalist politicians have no other avenue. This is the least bad of the available options. I won't hold them in the wrong when Rajoy has given them no alternative. This can be entirely and fully blamed on the PP, and rather than condemning Catalan politicians, as you've been doing most of this thread, you ought to be directing your fire at Rajoy and the PP.

 

[Tempus fugit]

You know, democracy is not only voting, is also following the law; you cant violate the constitution with a simple majority (more than half of the catalans didn't vote to the secessionist movement) in a regional parliament against the constitution of your country to secede from it and expect no reaction.

Also, the legality of this is laughable

 

[ferrasvansen]

Your fucking government is doing no better.

My fucking government is led by Nicola Sturgeon who has already had her say so bugger off and get your facts right.

 

[Nekster]

https://twitter.com/HistoricalPics/status/914492012728070145

 

[ferrasvansen]

https://twitter.com/HistoricalPics/status/914492012728070145

Crazy stuff hard to believe it's 2017 when you see these sorts of scenes.

 

[Beefy]

You know, democracy is not only voting, is also following the law; you cant violate the constitution with a simple majority (more than half of the catalans didn't vote to the secessionist movement) in a regional parliament against the constitution of your country to secede from it and expect no reaction.

Also, the legality of this is laughable

Can't follow the law when that law stops you voting.

 

[Machina]

My fucking government is led by Nicola Sturgeon who has already had her say so fuck off and get your facts right.

Bye

 

[ClosingADoor]

Pay close attention because this is happening to the EU in what is democracy being suppressed.

Even in the netherlands our politicians are willing to shutdown a referendum. You know why? Because there afraid of the people letting there voice heard. That grows towards fascism also since they don't want you to hear your opinion or yes or no.

Are we talking the Ukraine referendum here? The one that was set up by a few groups to gather money and push an anti-EU campaign that had nothing to do with the subject matter? I'm glad they ignored that result. Also, referendums here aren't binding. Nothing was shut down with that, it was held, most people didn't show up and it was rightfully ignored.

 

[jakonovski]

It's totally not. The response of the central government is terrible, they should have allowed the vote to take place and then take action after. But the fact that the Catalan government is showing absolute disregard for the legitimacy of voting procedures tells me that they did not care about the result of the referendum, what is happening now is exactly what they wanted.

If the Catalan government showed regard for the legitimacy of the voting procedures, there would be no vote, period. I'll judge their referendum abilities once it's actually possible to have democracy on this issue.

And no, there is absolutely no one responsible for senseless violence except the perpetrators of the violence.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Can you please stop saying "illegal" as if that actually means shit.

The Spanish state is incapable of conducting itself in such a way as to allow for a diplomatic solution, so of course any such referendum will be considered illegal by their bullshit laws.

And I think you'll find after today that there is only one party lacking democratic legitimacy, and it's not the Catalonian government.

You know, the only country that allows this kind of action in the world is Ethiopia; is not legal bullshit, is the constitution of the country that is being violated in an unilateral action by a regional goverment that represents a minority of the catalan people. This year Germany court banned a Bavarian independence referendum http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749748/Germany-Bavaria-no-independence-referendum-Bayxit

 

[KingSnake]

I agree. My point is merely: as long as the PP continues to frustrate a legitimate referendum, Catalan nationalist politicians have no other avenue. This is the least bad of the available optipns. I won't hold them in the wrong when Rajoy has given them no alternative. This can be entirely and fully blamed on the PP, and rather than condemning Catalan politicians, as you've been doing most of this thread, you ought to be directing your fire at Rajoy and the PP.

Make no confusion, I have no love for Rajoy, I think he's a scumbag and I felt sorry for Spain when he managed to trick his way back into the government after the repeated elections. The way police is acting today only makes my disgust for him bigger.

I'm rather worried that this whole situation can turn even more violent with no peaceful solution in sight.

 

[ecosse_011172]

My fucking government is led by Nicola Sturgeon who has already had her say so fuck off and get your facts right.

That's your regional government, your national government is saying fuck all.
If you think the Tories are somehow morally better than the EU, you're quite mistaken.