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[Chezzymann]

Regardless of the legality of the voting the actions of the police here are totally in justified, that video just linked is insane

 

[veryslowhand]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

 

[ferrasvansen]

That's your regional government, your national government is saying fuck all.
If you think the Tories are somehow morally better than the EU, you're quite mistaken.

My national government sucks, they couldn't care less about the ordinary people. Killing disabled people by the thousands, in the end frankly I have no care for the UK government anymore and haven't had for many years.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Can't follow the law when that law stops you voting.

So if I want to vote to legalize rape, or lets say, not to pay taxes in my neighbourhood and we win, it would be democratic??

 

[Machina]

You know, the only country that allows this kind of action in the world is Ethiopia; is not legal bullshit, is the constitution of the country that is being violated in an unilateral action by a regional goverment that represents a minority of the catalan people. This year Germany court banned a Bavarian independence referendum http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749748/Germany-Bavaria-no-independence-referendum-Bayxit

Any ethnic minority within a greater nation has a right to claim its independence. Any attempt to prevent that is clearly repression. All of this effort from the Spaniards to prevent a referendum from even happening tells me that they aren't confidant the yes vote won't win.

 

[ecosse_011172]

My national government sucks, the couldn't care less about the ordinary people. Killing disabled people by the thousands, in the end frankly I have no care for the UK government anymore.

It will only get worse without the protection of the EU, just watch.

 

[Beefy]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

Well we wouldn't know seeing as they can't vote properly.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You know, the only country that allows this kind of action in the world is Ethiopia; is not legal bullshit, is the constitution of the country that is being violated in an unilateral action by a regional goverment that represents a minority of the catalan people. This year Germany court banned a Bavarian independence referendum http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749748/Germany-Bavaria-no-independence-referendum-Bayxit

Most catalonian people wants to vote, not a minority at all.

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

I would like to see the numbers after today brutal repression.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

Yeah they should have just let them vote, now seeing all this violence and brutality will pretty much ensure support goes through the roof, total madness.

 

[Pikma]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

There is nothing funny about police hitting unnarmed protestors in the head though.

 

[SyenceLabb]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

May not be the case after this shit show.

 

[Beefy]

So if I want to vote to legalize rape, or lets say, not to pay taxes in my neighbourhood and we win, it would be democratic??

Stop with shit like this, you know what I meant but do the whole shit context thing. Regions that want independence should be allowed to do so legally.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So if I want to vote to legalize rape, or lets say, not to pay taxes in my neighbourhood and we win, it would be democratic??

false equivalency.

Nice.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

The Spanish police are known for being heavy handed. A good few British football fans have had a beating from riot officers following their team out there. Not a peep out of the UK politicians in those instances though.

 

[Tovarisc]

So if I want to vote to legalize rape, or lets say, not to pay taxes in my neighbourhood and we win, it would be democratic??

Should response to that vote be sending in police to beat you guys up and break some bones?

Even if vote was basically illegal / not binding that really shouldn't be an answer and go about it in other means.

 

[ferrasvansen]

It will only get worse without the protection of the EU, just watch.

Tories are a dying breed, the younger people are swaying more and more away from them and even those up to 50. They know they are in the last days of their era and desperately trying to find ways appealing to younger people and failing. Once brexit is finished it will be a long time before the Conservative party wins another majority.

 

[Machina]

The Spanish police are known for being heavy handed. A good few British football fans have had a beating from riot officers following their team out there. Not a peep out of the UK politicians in those instances though.

Judging from all the footage I've seen, heavy handed is putting it lightly.

 

[KojiKnight]

Yeah they should have just let them vote, now seeing all this violence and brutality will pretty much ensure support goes through the roof, total madness.

Even a 25-30% vote for it could embolden support going forward. That said, obviously the government is handling this the wrong way, because as you say this will only push that support even higher.

 

[jakonovski]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

The really funny part is that police beat up both pro and anti independence voters equally.

 

[Greddleok]

The really funny part is that police beat up both pro and anti independence voters equally.

I wonder what direction those no-voters will go if they ever get the chance to vote "legally."

 

[ecosse_011172]

Tories are a dying breed, the younger people are swaying more and more away from them and even those up to 50. They know they are in the last days of their era and desperately trying to find ways appealing to younger people and failing. Once brexit is finished it will be a long time before the Conservative party wins another majority.

How can you say that with any certainty?
Especially with the rabid press that will go to any lengths to stop a non Tory government.

 

[forknknife]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

That was yesterday, today Catalan independentism has gained many many followers.

Congrats, Rajoy. Your strategy to invade Catalonia with policemen from every corner of the country has proven super effective! What the fuck were they thinking?

 

[Tempus fugit]

Any ethnic minority within a greater nation has a right to claim its independence. Any attempt to prevent that is clearly repression

Ethnic minority??? more than half of catalonia's population has at least a parent from another Spanish region. Spanish is the mother tongue of about 65% of catalan people.

Are Texans an ethnic minority??
In fact, the only xenophobic statements have come from the side of some of Catalonia's separatist leaders, calling other Spanish an "inferior race"

I quote Jordi Pujol, one of the most prominent catalonian separatist leaders: "El hombre andaluz (...) vive en un estado de ignorancia y de miseria cultural, mental y espiritual. Es un hombre desarraigado, incapaz de tener un sentido un poco amplio de comunidad" which roughly translates as "the andalusian (people from the south of Spain) live in an state of ignorance an spiritual, cultural and mental misery, they have no roots, no sense of community"

 

[ferrasvansen]

How can you say that with any certainty?
Especially with the rabid press that will go to any lengths to stop a non Tory government.

When almost all your voting base is over 65 demographics will get you in the end, the young people growing up now will not forget what's happened how they have been shafted. Biggest shock was the recent polls showing those in their 40s were swinging in big numbers to Labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/poll-conservatives-jeremy-corbyn-young-people

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Are Texans an ethnic minority??
In fact, the only xenophobic statements have come from the side of some of Catalonia's separatist leaders, calling other Spanish an "inferior race"

Fucking bullshit.

 

[Tiamant]

You know, democracy is not only voting, is also following the law; you cant violate the constitution with a simple majority (more than half of the catalans didn't vote to the secessionist movement) in a regional parliament against the constitution of your country to secede from it and expect no reaction.

Also, the legality of this is laughable

It's almost as if declaring illegal a referendum, bringing military police, boycotting the organisation weeks prior to it, closing websites and forcing Google to remove information online on top of blocking internet from the electronic register, attacking people going to vote, closing voting schools and confiscating the voting ballots allowed for this kind if things to happen!

 

[Machina]

Ethnic minority??? more than half of catalonia's population has at least a parent from another Spanish region. Spanish is the mother tongue of about 65% of catalan people.

Are Texans an ethnic minority??
In fact, the only xenophobic statements have come from the side of some of Catalonia's separatist leaders, calling other Spanish an "inferior race"

I quote Jordi Pujol, one of the most prominent catalonian separatist leaders: "El hombre andaluz (...) vive en un estado de ignorancia y de miseria cultural, mental y espiritual. Es un hombre desarraigado, incapaz de tener un sentido un poco amplio de comunidad" which roughly translates as "the andalusian (people from the south of Spain) live in an state of ignorance an spiritual, cultural and mental misery, they have no roots, no sense of community"

So you clearly hate each other...Why are you so desperate to keep them around?

 

[KDR_11k]

Smells like a recipe for civil war to me. The central gov better hope that people aren't learning the lesson that what they need is more violent power than the police.

 

[Tempus fugit]

false equivalency.

Nice.

Yes, why??

If, lets say, the people from the region of Tarragona (a region inside Catalonia) want to stay in Spain, and the people from Girona (another region) want to go, are the catalans in Tarragona going to have to separate from their country, or will they be allowed to stay inside Spain?? is Catalonia indivisible, even if Spain is not??

If my region decide that it doesn't want to pay taxes and does a referendum about it, is the result going to be legal and democratic??

Please, where's the false equivalency?

 

[Nekster]

Funny part is that not even 50% of people in Catalonia are independentist.

False. 60% for yes, 80% want to vote. according to latest surveys.

 

[ecosse_011172]

When almost all your voting base is over 65 demographics will get you in the end, the young people growing up now will not forget what's happened how they have been shafted. Biggest shock was the recent polls showing those in their 40s were swinging in big numbers to Labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/poll-conservatives-jeremy-corbyn-young-people

I hope you're right but if you think Corbyn was demonised before, wait till the next election.
Such a shame he's a Brexiting twat.

 

[Wafflecakes]

It's almost as if declaring illegal a referendum, bringing military police, boycotting the organisation weeks prior to it, closing websites and forcing Google to remove information online on top of blocking internet from the electronic register, attacking people going to vote, closing voting schools and confiscating the voting ballots allowed for this kind if things to happen!

The referendum is illegal declaration or no tbh.

 

[Metroxed]

From reddit:

 

[Beefy]

Yes, why??

If, lets say, the people from the region of Tarragona (a region inside Catalonia) want to stay in Spain, and the people from Girona (another region) want to go, are the catalans in Tarragona going to have to separate from their country, or will they be allowed to stay inside Spain?? is Catalonia indivisible, even if Spain is not??

If my region decide that it doesn't want to pay taxes and does a referendum about it, is the result going to be legal and democratic??

Please, where's the false equivalency?

You just did it again

 

[RocknRola]

Even a 25-30% vote for it could embolden support going forward. That said, obviously the government is handling this the wrong way, because as you say this will only push that support even higher.

As opposed to this current way of handling things which has, assuredly, increased support in favour of independence in Catalonia, Spain and the international community?

The Spanish government made a big mistake in how they handled this, the aftermath is gonna bite them hard in the ass.

 

[dude]

You know, democracy is not only voting, is also following the law; you cant violate the constitution with a simple majority (more than half of the catalans didn't vote to the secessionist movement) in a regional parliament against the constitution of your country to secede from it and expect no reaction.

Also, the legality of this is laughable

Ok, where does sending riot police to beat up citizens fit into your definition of democracy? Cause between holding an illegal vote and the above, I think it's pretty clear which is worse.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So you clearly hate each other...Why are you so desperate to keep them around?

Why an abusive man wants to keep around the woman he abuses?

 

[Machina]

The referendum is illegal declaration or no tbh.

It's illegal under laws written by a government they don't support. Why should they adhere to it? Especially when not doing so invites a police baton to the face and not a civil discussion?

 

[jakonovski]

Yes, why??

If, lets say, the people from the region of Tarragona (a region inside Catalonia) want to stay in Spain, and the people from Girona (another region) want to go, are the catalans in Tarragona going to have to separate from their country, or will they be allowed to stay inside Spain?? is Catalonia indivisible, even if Spain is not??

If my region decide that it doesn't want to pay taxes and does a referendum about it, is the result going to be legal and democratic??

Please, where's the false equivalency?

Clearly this means the EU must take over as the supreme and only authority in Spain.

 

[marcbret87]

If the Catalan government showed regard for the legitimacy of the voting procedures, there would be no vote, period. I'll judge their referendum abilities once it's actually possible to have democracy on this issue.

And no, there is absolutely no one responsible for senseless violence except the perpetrators of the violence.

Sure, as I said the vote should have been allowed to proceed. It's just absurd to try to stop thousands of people from voting when in any case the vote will have no legitimacy. What I mean is that la Generalitat did not care for the legitimacy of the vote, what they wanted is exactly what is happening. It's a huge victory for them.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I hope you're right but if you think Corbyn was demonised before, wait till the next election.
Such a shame he's a Brexiting twat.

Oh I know, papers were dreadful but there was huge backlash on social media over those last few days and I think a repeat of those attacks will just end up in same result if not even more dramatic.

 

[KonradLaw]

EU doesn't have text about the event of a country "split", and I'd say it could be a special case. Why would the "new Spain" would stay in and the Catalonia be out by default? Such a situation is quite a mess...

Because legally Spain would remain the very same country. Catalonia would be a new country. Thus it wouldn't be a member of EU. Even if all EU states would be willing to let them join (and plenty won't) it would still take a good decade or so before it happens.

I'm all for right to self determination of Catalonians, but anyone who expect such secession to not be a shitstorm that damages it's economy heavily are kidding themselves.

 

[Dierce]

Rajoy fell into the secessionists trap like the idiot he is. Right wingers everywhere in the world are idiots who are easily manipulated into violence.

 

[Tiamant]

Yes, why??

If, lets say, the people from the region of Tarragona (a region inside Catalonia) want to stay in Spain, and the people from Girona (another region) want to go, are the catalans in Tarragona going to have to separate from their country, or will they be allowed to stay inside Spain?? is Catalonia indivisible, even if Spain is not??

If my region decide that it doesn't want to pay taxes and does a referendum about it, is the result going to be legal and democratic??

Please, where's the false equivalency?

This has already happened with Vall d'Aran, a region inside Catalonia with independence desires. The Generalitat (Catalan government) recognized their right to do so if they want.

https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_558846.html

So yeah, next.

 

[Wafflecakes]

It's illegal under laws written by a government they don't support. Why should they adhere to it? Especially when not doing so invites a police baton to the face and not a civil discussion?

Because that is the way governments work. Ignoring every law you don't like has a name, and it is anarchy.

 

[Tempus fugit]

So you clearly hate each other...Why are you so desperate to keep them around?

No, a minority of catalan people feel superior and are trying to violate the constitution, and the Goverment elected by all Spanish people is applying the law (the constitutional court declared the referendum illegal, no the Goverment) to stop it, in a rough way that I dont approve, but applying the law, the same way that the Labour party did in Northern Ireland a decade ago.

Funny that you dont condemn that "ethnic minority's" man racist declarations,, though.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Yes, why??

If, lets say, the people from the region of Tarragona (a region inside Catalonia) want to stay in Spain, and the people from Girona (another region) want to go, are the catalans in Tarragona going to have to separate from their country, or will they be allowed to stay inside Spain?? is Catalonia indivisible, even if Spain is not??

That's how democracy works? I didn't voted PP and here I am, dealing with it. If most catalonian wants to vote, they need to accept the result of the voting...

 

[Beefy]

Because that is the way governments work. Ignoring every law you don't like has a name, and it is anarchy.

This isn't ignoring every law though. This is just wanting a independence vote.

 

[KonradLaw]

You just did it again

With taxes he is, but not with regions. Catalionan goverment has zero right, legal or moral, to try to force regions or cities that want to stay as part of Spain if their citzens vote no.

 

[Tempus fugit]

You just did it again

Nice argumentation buddy boyo.