lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
well i dont know whether stutter only comes from shaders, but i always see people complaining stutter on their gaming PC while i got none playing on my console.
DF: Doom: The Dark Ages "Forced RT" Backlash - Is It Actually Justified?
- Thread starter Windom Earle
- Start date
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
People can't afford competent cards like they once could, that's why it's brought up in here. Nor can they even get them with these "shortages." It's even brought up in the comments section of that very video.
Last edited:
Wildebeest
Member
All new AAA games suck so why would you update your hardware.
Zathalus
Member
Most RT games don't have any additional stuttering over regular rendering. There were some issues with earlier RT effects, especially with UE4, but nothing recent that I can recall.
I can easily tell the difference in many (not all) games with RT on vs off. Control, Cyberpunk 2077, Alan Wake 2, Spider-Man 1+2, F1 24, and Metro Exodus to name some of the best.
There is not a single 360 game that hold their own against Doom The Dark ages.
I was referring to the 3060 which has DLSS to help hold that stable 60fps. The 6750 XT has to unfortunately deal with FSR 2.
Bojji
Member
You just don't see them. Most UE5 games have some stuttering on consoles. Those games are also the ones that people complain the most when it comes to PC stuttering...
SolidQ
Member
simpatico
Member
I'm not dealing with any non native rendering.
I'm old enough to remember when people said "DLSS 3 is indistinguishable from native, if not better!" Now that DLSS 4 Transgender has released "DLSS3 is trash! I can't believe this game doesn't have transformer support!"
I'm betting when DLSS 5 comes out, we'll get people's real opinion of 4.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Zathalus
Member
Good for you. The overwhelming majority of gamers don't care.I'm not dealing with any non native rendering.
simpatico
Member
Then who's causing this stink over TDS looking mid? An overwhelming minority is making that much noise and tanking the sales?
phant0m
Member
No, and let's work through the arguments:
RT can go to fucking hell, and I say that as someone who owns good RT-capable hardware.
If you want to talk about cool graphics tech, DLSS/FSR/XeSS are way more worth investing in hardware for
- "technology advances" - but RT is still not worth the massive performance impact. Good baked lighting can still look just as good. Prior graphical tech enhancements like SSAO, tessellation, etc didn't have nearly as drastic a performance hit AND were features that can be turned on and off
- "RT helps dev teams light the environments faster and saves huge amounts of time vs rendering all the baked lighting" - yet, game dev cycles are taking 3-4x what they did 2 gens ago? Doesn't seem like it's netting any advantage in dev time, and games that still use baked lighting aren't taking longer
- "RT is 5+ years old now! You should all have RT capable hardware!" - not only is this a shitty, privileged argument generally but it's moot when all 3 consoles on the market today either can't run RT (Switch) or also get absolute dogshit performance. Sony fucking admitted that like 70% of people chose performance modes on base PS5. These modes usually disabled RT lighting to get 60 fps
RT can go to fucking hell, and I say that as someone who owns good RT-capable hardware.
If you want to talk about cool graphics tech, DLSS/FSR/XeSS are way more worth investing in hardware for
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
most people agree? We have the dev literally saying that the game couldnt be possible without RTGI because the levels are too big (5-10x larger
) and too dynamic to be done without RT. At least not with the resources they had on hand.
Timestamped:
simpatico
Member
How long did it take to make Halo 2 and how many MP mods did it launch with?
Zathalus
Member
Yes, a vocal minority thinks the game looks mid. What is actually tanking the sales is the fact it is on gamepass, the high price point, and that the reception to Eternal was so divisive. Not because John Gamer has to enable DLSS.
simpatico
Member
Sucks to suck
Arkham Knight, Red Dead 2 and Uncharted 4 look great. Someone needs to audit how id is spending that time.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Your post was pure horseshit, but now you're just being ridiculous.
simpatico
Member
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, im just not buying that. If you consider a PS5 a competent console then you can easily get a PS5 equivalent GPU for $200-300. the 4060 Alex is talking about in this video is $300-350 and should offer equivalent performance to a PS5.
I do understand that compared to last gen when you could get a 970 or a 1060 for $300 and have double the PS4 performance, nowadays you need to spend roughly double that to double the PS5 performance. And thats fucked up, but the PS5 also had a shortage for years and yet, no one complained that sony made demon souls, ratchet and spiderman 2 exclusive to the PS5. we WANT devs to invest in next gen tech in the console space and we are supposedly the peasants. its time the PC userbase stopped complaining and embraced next gen.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Doom Dark Ages runs at 60 fps on all consoles with ray tracing enabled.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
It isn't. None of these games are anywhere TDA. Stop this nonsense.
phant0m
Member
2.5-ish years? It was acknowledged as in development @ e3 2002 and came out in 2004. It also had new physics system, stencil shadows and a completely reworked engine.
MP mods? I assume that's a typo meant to be "maps"- there were 26 total, with 9 coming from the map pack expansion so…17?
simpatico
Member
Microcenter is a 45 minute drive. Plus I gotta bust the case open. Honestly, I wish there was a game that made me scurry down there excitedly. Dark Ages was certainly a contender prerelease. There isn't anything officially announced that makes my car keys jingle other than GTA VI. My 6750xt can probably run 6 or 7 instances of Gloomwood simultaneously.
I said "hold their own". These games look like they came from the same generation. Enthusiasts on a vBulletin message board can tell the difference. Go setup a TV at Target with those and see if anyone can tell which one is supposed to be a revolutionary leap over the other ones.
Last edited:
simpatico
Member
Impressive stuff. Is id stupid? They didn't even have to bake any lighting.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yep. they all look great and last gen.Sucks to suck
its great to see ID software modernize their engine AND their game. the levels are 5-10x bigger. they now feature flying and open world design. they now feature 10x more enemies on screen at once. they feature destructible environments. i say they spent that time really well. Not just on fancy visuals like ninja theory but mostly to deliver an epic and massive game that simply couldnt be done on last gen consoles. And RTGI helped them achieve that.
phant0m
Member
naw, and tbh their implementation is better than most.
I just find no discernible improvement from Eternal and would much rather have that game's performance. You could crank that shit up on a GTX 1080 @ 1440p and still get 80+ fps.
phant0m
Member
Naw dude, RDR2 still has top tier lighting
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nah. RDR2 was topped a long time ago. Many games this gen have better lighting. Avatar, Wukong, AC Shadows, HFW, Alan Wake 2 all have better lighting.
Regardless, even rockstar is switching to RTGI with their next game so forced RT crowd is going to have a rough time with GTA6.
Last edited:
phant0m
Member
And AC Shadows runs like doooooogshit
And I don't agree that Avatar or HFW are better. Maybe equal, not better.
OverHeat
« generous god »
For me 2080ti 3090 4090 5090…I'm all in for RT
simpatico
Member
My point is, nothing in TDA that was not in Eternal is worth excluding all those people. Make it worth it at least. Xbox 360 is a stretch but dozens of games without RT look as good or better than this. PC is the platform of flexibility, not just cutting edge graphics,
Last edited:
phant0m
Member
More importantly: overall visual quality is very similar to Eternal, and RT was not worth halving the frame rate over
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
the lighting and foliage detail is literally a generation behind. As it should be. If it didnt, GTA6 wouldnt look a generation better.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
They don't.
They don't. They look dated, but that doesn't mean they look bad.
phant0m
Member
Avatar and HFW have fantastic image quality, and yes FAR better foliage density & detail.the lighting and foliage detail is literally a generation behind. As it should be. If it didnt, GTA6 wouldnt look a generation better.
But talking specifically about lighting, I do not see them as better than RDR2. Especially at dusk/night.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
you are literally not getting the game of this scale without rt. at least not in five years. the dev literally says it wouldve taken several more years if they had to sit there baking in lighting to make it look this good. and because of the destruction, the baked lighting wouldve been completely broken around those destructible areas.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
thats because people arent playing the game or simply dont realize that the game is 5-10x bigger with dozens more enemies on screen at once.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
And it helped shave 'years' off development per the developers themselves.
proandrad
Member
I played it for an hour and thought it was boring. But in terms of visuals, I maxed the game out and I just do not see it. Eternal looks better to me.
Last edited:
how does that 7 old RT gpu runs the forced RT game btw
phant0m
Member
A lot worse than it ran Eternal, despite overall IQ being basically the same
Also, can we talk about how WILD of a take it is that the YT channel that spent the last decade building their brand on being pixel peepers and frame counters is SHOCKED that their audience doesn't like a visual feature that halves frame rate and forces you to render at sub-native resolutions just to hit 60 ?
Who's have known?!
Last edited:
Buggy Loop
Member
b but my 3GB 1060 from 2016 can't run 2025 games?
Fucking Nvidia with their RTX forcing peoples to buy GPUs that fucking monopoly!
/s
Time to move the fuck on. It should have happened years ago. RTX is also now the majority of GPUs on steam hardware survey, but still too many fucking pascal cards or RDNA 1 and under.
Fucking Nvidia with their RTX forcing peoples to buy GPUs that fucking monopoly!
/s
Time to move the fuck on. It should have happened years ago. RTX is also now the majority of GPUs on steam hardware survey, but still too many fucking pascal cards or RDNA 1 and under.
AngelMuffin
Member
No
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I swear, people don't know what they want.
>Wow, look at those graphics!
>Gamer: But does it make the game more fun?
>Actually, ray tracing allowed the devs to make levels 5-10x bigger with quintuple the amount of enemies, particles, reflections, and almost zero load times, enhancing the gameplay!
>Gamer: Meh.
We have technology that actually impacts facets of the game beyond visuals, allowing devs to go balls to the walls with scope and scale, but you guys are bitching about your frame rates and saying Eternal looks better (it doesn't).
Last edited:
phant0m
Member
I loved Doom 2016. I want more Doom 2016 - guns, levels, enemy designs. Doom 2016 did not even support, let alone require RT.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
what does RT has to the with bigger levels, more enemies and load times?
ZehDon
Member
Item 2 is a sticking point for your arguments, and it's clear you don't really understand what's happening in the development landscape. id, the creators of Doom: The Age Ages, explained that moving to fully real-time lighting via ray tracing eliminated the need for baking completely - not just in lighting, but in numerous effects as well. This saved approximately two years of development. So, instead of needing the standard seven years for a AAA game, DTDA took around five. That's a massive saving. There's a reason many developers shifted to Unreal Engine 5: it's real-time lighting model is "good enough" that they don't need to rely on heavily baked lighting and effects. Saving two years of development can be the difference between shipping your game and going out of business, so even though UE5 is garbage performance wise, that's a tradeoff they're happy to make.
Games that still use the baked approach to its lighting and effects are self-evidently taking longer - you're just falling afoul of the survivor bias, by only noting the games that have already released... which already took seven years to make. Notice people complaining about a lack of next gen games, lack of Sony delivering first party, etc. That's because a good amount of developers are only using ray tracing for reflections, or to speed up probe look ups. They're still baking most of their lighting and effects work, so their development schedules have ballooned again this generation - meaning many of them will only release one game this generation, right as it winds down.
Your third point is pretty funny given that id delivered real time ray traced lighting at 60FPS on every console - including the Series S. Other games like Metro Exodus show that RT is perfectly useable on current hardware at good frame rates - but it's down to the developers to actually make it work. And frankly, most developers simply aren't good enough.
More on topic, back in the day id lived on the bleeding edge. Their games often coincided with the release of new hardware that demanded users upgrade just to play their games. RT-capabable hardware released seven years ago, and current-gen consoles released five years ago. Bitch about progression if you want, but you forfeit the right to complain about anything technology related if you honestly believe developers should lag nearly a decade behind. As far as I'm concerned, mandatory RT should have arrived with the current generation of consoles, to save us from garbage like UE5's software lumen ruining an entire generation of video games.