Do we expect the same thing? Because it's going to be 220 for normal, 230 for lore gear, 240 for savage.
Maybe, maybe 215 for normal, 220 for lore, 230 for savage.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch
- Thread starter Ken
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Do we expect the same thing? Because it's going to be 220 for normal, 230 for lore gear, 240 for savage.
Maybe, maybe 215 for normal, 220 for lore, 230 for savage.
This is pretty much where I've now landed. I don't really like it, but one of these will be the eventuality of the gear. Sephirot will likely fall in line with whatever Midas normal ends up as.
In response to their recent statements that they don't design fights with Healer/Tank DPS in mind.
Well, they way they worded that makes it pretty clear they they're talking about end-game content in general, not Alex Savage specifically. I mean the statement was, "we calculate zero damage for tanks and healers, or the damage a tank would put out doing their basic enmity rotation." Ignoring the fact that off tanks aren't going to be using the basic enmity rotation in eight man content, it seems really unlikely that hard-core content is designed this way. This sounds more appropriate for dungeons where tanks far more often are only going to do the basic enmity rotation, and where healers really don't need to DPS at all to have a solid expectation of clearing without a fuss. So as a whole it's hard for me to take this statement too seriously.
Now that said, yeah the fact that they didn't carefully test Alex Savage does mean that we cannot assume the strategies people adopted and such were intentional. It's very much possible that they simply tuned the fights higher then they intended, and that healers and tanks needing to maximize DPS to clear wasn't intentional.
I mean, that seems a bit unlikely to me, but its very plausible.
PS: Having an odd numbered llvl line of armor, (215,) seems a bit unlikely to me unless it's crafted. I'm personally guessing, "220 for Alex Normal and the new Diadem max ilvl gear (They stated in the December ilvl that Diadem gear wouldn't be max ilvl, but would be suitable for starting the next raid.) Crafted gear will be either 215 or 220, I'm leaning towards 220 just because the devs seem reluctant to use odd numbered gear too often during the end-game. Base tome gear will be 230, upgradeable to 240.
Another reason I'm leaning towards crafted being 220. With secondaries being nerfed in 3.0, melding crafted gear isn't going to have as dramatic of an effect as before in 2.X. So now 215 gear would really only be about the equivalent of 220 after melding. If I'm right about Alex Normal and Diadem dropping 220 gear, that would make the crafted gear practically useless.
Well, they way they worded that makes it pretty clear they they're talking about end-game content in general, not Alex Savage specifically. I mean the statement was, "we calculate zero damage for tanks and healers, or the damage a tank would put out doing their basic enmity rotation." Ignoring the fact that off tanks aren't going to be using the basic enmity rotation in eight man content, it seems really unlikely that hard-core content is designed this way. This sounds more appropriate for dungeons where tanks far more often are only going to do the basic enmity rotation, and where healers really don't need to DPS at all to have a solid expectation of clearing without a fuss. So as a whole it's hard for me to take this statement too seriously.
Now that said, yeah the fact that they didn't carefully test Alex Savage does mean that we cannot assume the strategies people adopted and such were intentional. It's very much possible that they simply tuned the fights higher then they intended, and that healers and tanks needing to maximize DPS to clear wasn't intentional.
I mean, that seems a bit unlikely to me, but its very plausible.
PS: Having an odd numbered llvl line of armor, (215,) seems a bit unlikely to me unless it's crafted. I'm personally guessing, "220 for Alex Normal and the new Diadem max ilvl gear (They stated in the December ilvl that Diadem gear wouldn't be max ilvl, but would be suitable for starting the next raid.) Crafted gear will be either 215 or 220, I'm leaning towards 220 just because the devs seem reluctant to use odd numbered gear too often during the end-game. Base tome gear will be 230, upgradeable to 240.
Another reason I'm leaning towards crafted being 220. With secondaries being nerfed in 3.0, melding crafted gear isn't going to have as dramatic of an effect as before in 2.X. So now 215 gear would really only be about the equivalent of 220 after melding. If I'm right about Alex Normal and Diadem dropping 220 gear, that would make the crafted gear practically useless.
In my opinion based on the fact that they said it was going to be ilvl 30 gap for each cycle.
200: New Dungeon Gear
220: Alexander Midas Normal
225:Sephirot Extreme Weapon
230: Lore/Crafted gear
240: Midas Savage Armor, Upgraded weapon/armor for Lore
245: Midas Savage Weapon
3.3
215: New Dungeon Gear
230: Alliance Raid gear
235: Zurvan Weapons (People forget we are going to get another trial in the middle of this gear cycle, Sephirot will not be super high level because of that)
235: Diadem 2.0 (they said decreasing ilvl by 5 for next set so they can make it more plentiful and not completely replacing lore/savage gear)
The only thing not obvious is dungeon gear ilvl and crafted gear ilvl and the pace of the anima weapon upgrade path, the other stuff clearly is set in pattern they have talked about in the past.
Got nothing on old school WoW jumps, ilvl is arbitrary, what needs to be calculated is just how much stronger ilvl makes you compared to previous ilvls. Its just a number for calculation otherwise. Compared to other games that have a vertical model these jumps are simple in contrast.
200: New Dungeon Gear
220: Alexander Midas Normal
225:Sephirot Extreme Weapon
230: Lore/Crafted gear
240: Midas Savage Armor, Upgraded weapon/armor for Lore
245: Midas Savage Weapon
3.3
215: New Dungeon Gear
230: Alliance Raid gear
235: Zurvan Weapons (People forget we are going to get another trial in the middle of this gear cycle, Sephirot will not be super high level because of that)
235: Diadem 2.0 (they said decreasing ilvl by 5 for next set so they can make it more plentiful and not completely replacing lore/savage gear)
The only thing not obvious is dungeon gear ilvl and crafted gear ilvl and the pace of the anima weapon upgrade path, the other stuff clearly is set in pattern they have talked about in the past.
Got nothing on old school WoW jumps, ilvl is arbitrary, what needs to be calculated is just how much stronger ilvl makes you compared to previous ilvls. Its just a number for calculation otherwise. Compared to other games that have a vertical model these jumps are simple in contrast.
It's on it's 3rd year since relaunch in 2013, and having gone through an expansion you'd expect some inflation.
There's basically no way to read this interview and not think they mean Savage:
Nothing else in the game, including EX Primals, requires anything approaching 85% of potential performance on DPS at appropriate gear levels.
A4S at release was straight up broken using any kind of tuning they've claimed to use and the Nisi strat. Like, there's a sad level of sense in the reveal that they didn't test the back half of Savage, because the fights we got don't align with the things they outline when people directly ask them about Savage.
Best as I can tell, the tank swap thing became more prevalent as more and more groups got there? The initial wave of them did it as an option (or just the WAR open for threat purposes) but after that it became a "you have to!" situation. Only one that makes sense to me is MT has Boss+Straf, OT has a Jagd Doll? That setup does mean you want to swap but all others aren't worth it best I can tell.
As for Quarantine, the only lethal hit is the 8th stack one so I can just Holmgang it. Since I'm bad and let my DPS tank the first GCD, I can usually get to that last doll at 4-5 stacks and not even worry about the bad hit most of the time!
I do wonder what they put 100% DPS at. Are we all just scrubs and can't hit 1800 DPS that they're benchmarking with.
Alex savage was meant to be cleared at ilvl 230 obviously
Day 1 of 3.2, people queue up to do their weekly A4S clear.
"One of more of your party members do not meet the ilvl requirement for this duty."
Man, 30 ilevel gap is really going to kill the usefulness of relic quickly. Why did I grind that thing again?
Anyways with a 30ilevel raise, I'm guessing sephirot ex will be i220, eso i230 upgradable to i240, Midas wep i245.
The only question is will the eso weapon be locked behind a Midas 2 drop. I guess they did that to encourage people to do relics in the past? With next relic step coming out quicker (think they said 3.25) Id guess it will be locked behind Midas until 3.3 when they'll put the item in void ark successor.
Anyways with a 30ilevel raise, I'm guessing sephirot ex will be i220, eso i230 upgradable to i240, Midas wep i245.
The only question is will the eso weapon be locked behind a Midas 2 drop. I guess they did that to encourage people to do relics in the past? With next relic step coming out quicker (think they said 3.25) Id guess it will be locked behind Midas until 3.3 when they'll put the item in void ark successor.
Alex savage was meant to be cleared at ilvl 230 obviously
I have actually wondered if they wanted it restricted to world-first groups until 3.1 and Thordan. A3S DPS check works of to about 6k raid DPS sustained over like 12 minutes and 40 seconds if my math is right. Again depending on my math skills, A4S Nisi is about 6.6k raid DPS over 13 minutes and 10 seconds depending on if you get the bonus Carnage or not. That's a pretty massive jump in expected DPS when there were 0 weapon upgrades available between 3 and 4. Especially if you're expecting the bulk of the increase to come from the 4 DPS since the healers are busy despising Nisi, life, the universe, and everything.
Or my math is shit. But I really do not understand how A4S makes sense like... Ever.
I would be surprised if any of this came to pass.
I still argue the grind is still pretty off and people grinded that garbage out for it to be quickly replaced by the next EX Primal drop in a few weeks. At least people were able to get their A4S clears with the weapons before they became totally useless.
Speaking of future EBs, who are you doing the Valentine's quest with?
HylianScribe
Member
At the moment my relic isn't useless. So I wouldn't say always. Once it drops back to 5 ilvls below the raid drop, and upgrade patches for it are staggered behind when you could reasonably get the tomestone weapon + upgrade mat, it will be less useful. I mean, I guess it depends on how quickly you get that next Gordian weapon vs when you can get the next upgrade to your relic. If you don't get it by the time you can upgrade your relic to 230, and your relic will have better secondary stats than your Lore weapon, then relic will be appealing again. When it comes to WHM weapon, the relic has always looked aesthetically superior to any of the raid weapons, so I will keep on with each upgrade patch.
I don't really think there's much debate over if Anima was too grindy. PLL26:
Point blank Anima weapon is only as grindy as it is to 'earn' raid weapon iLevel equivalence, and if the dev team wasn't obsessed with needing to keep the raid weapons special Anima would suck less.
It's mostly disappointing in that I really thought i210 Gordias weapons was a sign they'd moved on from needing to inflate raider ego via iLevel exclusivity, when really it was just them forgetting how they wanted their own game to work.
Point blank Anima weapon is only as grindy as it is to 'earn' raid weapon iLevel equivalence, and if the dev team wasn't obsessed with needing to keep the raid weapons special Anima would suck less.
It's mostly disappointing in that I really thought i210 Gordias weapons was a sign they'd moved on from needing to inflate raider ego via iLevel exclusivity, when really it was just them forgetting how they wanted their own game to work.
Your weird need to state that the grind is okay and perfectly fine is ... well, weird. It's okay that it's a bad grind. Doing it casually over the course of nearly two months doesn't somehow make it good or well designed.
Christ, I'm considering becoming a crafter with these market prices, just no inventory space, hahahahaha ._.
Fucking knew Adder's been coming up.3nd month in a row in top 3 /o/
Okay well I concede the point of it being useful now, though frankly if I stuck with the Thordan thing it wouldn't really matter, we clear with 205 anyway.
Sephirot weapons will definitely be over 210 which instantly makes them better on the account of WD. So day 1 of 3.2 it's gonna be outdated unless you get some terrible deal on secondaries (but MCH isn't gonna worry about that).
Aesthetics I suppose is a matter of preference. Majestas is pretty cool. Gandiva is tacky but it grew on me. Most others aren't special or just outright awful. There's plenty of better looking weapons... in Aery, in T9... Some in PVP, some in Ravana. Eh.
They didn't even imply that there will be a customizing stats phase!
Sephirot weapons will definitely be over 210 which instantly makes them better on the account of WD. So day 1 of 3.2 it's gonna be outdated unless you get some terrible deal on secondaries (but MCH isn't gonna worry about that).
Aesthetics I suppose is a matter of preference. Majestas is pretty cool. Gandiva is tacky but it grew on me. Most others aren't special or just outright awful. There's plenty of better looking weapons... in Aery, in T9... Some in PVP, some in Ravana. Eh.
They didn't even imply that there will be a customizing stats phase!
Unless Sephirot is only ilvl 215 and then we can laugh at BRDs and MCHs.
That's the thing, it's still a grind in the end so it comes down to how much you personally enjoy the amount of stuff it asks you to do. I don't mind mindless buttons so I still enjoy Diablo 3 grinding whenever I get in the mood for it. I don't particularly think that grind itself is well designed or anything like that, I can respect it's still a grind despite having fun with it. I grinded ARR relics because means to an end and because most the content was new-ish to me then. I still recognized it was a pretty terrible grind.
Basically, how annoying the grind is will vary so the blanket "you're doing it wrong, it's really good and okay and not at all a grind" just strikes me as weird. It's okay for it to be a grind and for you to want to do it.
grats on your SSPD i215 weapon to make the Tome weapon look better
Gonna have to be +1 anyway. And most 210 MCH weapons are awful. The only one that's better than Heavensfire is Gordian which is... A4! Personally I won't even have enough pages before the patch to buy it.
It was a little too big, especially coming that late in the raid cycle. What they're asking people to do in terms of activities wasn't unreasonable, but it probably should've been 60 tokens rather then 80.
Eighty might have been acceptable had they released this grind back in 3.0. The people that wanted to do it casually wouldn't have felt as big of a rush, and people that wanted to plow through it would've been rewarded with a weapon that was fully relevant longer. Waiting so long, and making the grind as large as it was, was pretty much the worst option.
Again, what they're asking people to do in terms of activities isn't unreasonable, but the combination of timing and the grind being just a bit too big made it more poorly received then it would've been otherwise.
Let's be real, they can do whatever they please and stay within the rules there. 210 -> 215 could be 0 WD and 215 -> 220 could be the 1 WD and no one will care about the BRD/MCH whining.
But the timing + volume is the bulk of the complaint. That they essentially rehashed a bunch of relic stages, but grindier, and then released it at the point in the content cycle where people were recently-sick of stuff was just a perfect storm of Bad Idea. It was too much, too late, for too little (or, for MCH, no) reward.
I'll probably end up picking up a ton of relic items in 3.2 as a side effect of just doing the new tome grind. And it sounds like they'll nerf Anima relatively quickly. It was still a poorly planned step.
It'll be great in my pipe dream world where Turrets scale awesome with SSPD. In my reality where MCH buffs are just like... 2 potency on Split Shot tho it'll be less great.
I'll probably end up picking up a ton of relic items in 3.2 as a side effect of just doing the new tome grind. And it sounds like they'll nerf Anima relatively quickly. It was still a poorly planned step.
It'll be great in my pipe dream world where Turrets scale awesome with SSPD. In my reality where MCH buffs are just like... 2 potency on Split Shot tho it'll be less great.
I guess the weird thing is that's the entirety of the complaint? It's a lot of stuff to do at a bad time in the patch cycle. If it was alongside the early parts of the expansion, especially with the i170, i200 steps, then it could have been a weapon that was relevant at specific notable spots from 3.0 to now and the grind could have been fewer total items but with other ways to artificially gate it if they really cared about it being done too early real time wise. Then when they want to nerf it, just remove whatever gates were in place and it paces better.
Instead we basically just got "go do a lot of chores."
Just ask in FC chat, quick and painless. I had a spooky ghost help me with mine, which made the cutscenes bout 1000x better.
I will say this, 3.0/3.1, would've been the perfect time to break out the Relic Reborn blueprint again. A small grind, (lets say 20-30 tokens in size,) and a few moderately difficult trials, would've worked really well, even late in the raid cycle.
To be fair, yes a lot of people were road blocked by Titan HM back in 2.0. However they overlearned their lesson from this. Biggest problem with titan was laggy instances (somewhat fixed in 2.1,) and the ring out mechanic. So long as a new set of trials don't have a ring-out mechanic, most players would've muddled through.
That said, it's possible they didn't have the budgets to make two additional new trials for 3.1 or whatnot. Still, it probably would have been better received.
Yes, the total amount you had to do to get a 210 weapon wasn't unreasonable, but the timing and pacing was horribly thought out. Had they released it earlier, spread out the grind a bit more evenly, and merely held out the last step to get the 210 weapon until 3.15, it would've been a different story.
Something that they need to learn for these grinds, intermediary steps/weapons are a very good thing!
To be fair, yes a lot of people were road blocked by Titan HM back in 2.0. However they overlearned their lesson from this. Biggest problem with titan was laggy instances (somewhat fixed in 2.1,) and the ring out mechanic. So long as a new set of trials don't have a ring-out mechanic, most players would've muddled through.
That said, it's possible they didn't have the budgets to make two additional new trials for 3.1 or whatnot. Still, it probably would have been better received.
Yes, the total amount you had to do to get a 210 weapon wasn't unreasonable, but the timing and pacing was horribly thought out. Had they released it earlier, spread out the grind a bit more evenly, and merely held out the last step to get the 210 weapon until 3.15, it would've been a different story.
Something that they need to learn for these grinds, intermediary steps/weapons are a very good thing!
Wow I'm so glad all the 3.x Primals so far don't have ring out mechanics.
Anima was probably held in its entirety just to make patch 3.15 look beefier, honestly. The i170 animated weapons kind of suggest, at least to me, that it was meant to be there with you at the start of 3.0.
Anima was probably held in its entirety just to make patch 3.15 look beefier, honestly. The i170 animated weapons kind of suggest, at least to me, that it was meant to be there with you at the start of 3.0.
Not to the same extent at Titan at least. Ravana has a gate that'll prevent you from getting knocked off too easily, and Bismark has maybe two mechanics I can think of that have a decent chance of ringing someone out, one of which is merely standing on him too long, which is easily avoided after you become aware of it. Finally Thordon doesn't have a ring out mechanic, he just has a damage tick wall.
Nothing compared to Titan, where even very miner lag could result in you being sent flying off in bizarre directions.
I thought that the add pushback AoE was only a NM thing? I've seen a ton of people get sent flying by that in NM, but I don't remember anyone getting sent flying by adds in the extreme version.
Now, that blasted weather pattern mechanic on the other hand.
Yeah, you get pushed back. Why would they remove that in Extreme?
Because you'd be dealing with that at the same time as the weather mechanic?
"Titan EX has the hardest ring out mechanics!"
Lists lag
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Bismark EX (and Leviathan EX) has just as many ring out moves as Titan EX. Ravana gates aren't permanent and you also have to have one up to do Pillar of Heaven. And yeah, Thordan EX is just a death wall but still there to force or increase chance of deaths on Dragoon dive, Warrior's Unmovable Faith, and Gaze frenzy.
Just adding stuff to be redeemable with Bis and Ravana tokens would have been totally fine too. Or just making a weekly quest that has you go through Bis and Ravana and nets you one token.
....that's the point? And the weather mechanic is in normal too. People just ignore it because it's not as bad.
I know it's in normal, I've seen the text fly up and the sky change color and all that. Just hardly seems to do anything in Bismark normal. The stun/knockback is a much bigger threat in normal.
Thing is, for the life of me I cannot remember ever being knocked back by an add in extreme.
Fine, but that's still 2/3 primal fights.
Also, Ravana losing the walls in Ravana's walls before a certain point in that fight is almost a guaranteed wipe, but so long as some walls remain the knock-back mechanic in that fight isn't a significant factor.
I think people are more likely to be flung out in Bismark then Ravana.
I think people are more likely to be flung out in Bismark then Ravana.