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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch
- Thread starter Ken
- Start date
It's bait, but not for you. Get out of here!
Can you put a pink Waymark on where you want me to stand. I hear that helps.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Patch notes tomorrow?
It's possible we'll get preliminary tomorrow, we usually get those a few days before, but I don't think they've given a date.
Yeah, it's a lot easier for the OT / stack to just rotate a few steps to be in the flight path + the stack being kind of sloppy gives more area coverage! The AoE is so massive it'll hit all of them no matter what anyway at that point. As a plus, it means the flank becomes accessible (and if a melee wants to get super risky, the rear too) so it's better for damage!
I missed this in my wall of text but I mean ... I guess it depends a lot on what you mean by perfect? I don't think we've had an actual perfect run of A4S yet. The fight is punishing in that it's easy for people to die and some deaths lead to "probably just wipe this?" questions but I wouldn't say the fight takes perfection at all.
Basically, my take is that at this point it's more about making sure to meeting the requirements to beat the fight rather than needing it to be perfectly done; not dropping below a C instead of making it to an A+. The closer to perfection it requires to get, the more likely it's that things are being done non-optimally in the strategy level at this point.
what if I don't like ice cream
Pre-preliminary patch notes of "We made some changes, please look forward to it."
I never got this, why is the market going crazy due to patch notes worse than the market going crazy at 5 AM when the servers go up. Changes nothing, the early birds still buy out whatever the new thing is within 15 minutes.
You weren't invited! Go make me ARM leve turn ins or something so they can decide crafted armor is also OP and remove it from the patch.
Most of the tank speculation has already happened I think. AST/MCH buffs shouldn't do much to the market unless they're suddenly making skillspeed God-tier for us or something.
I expect no useful information because that's how they roll, but having already announced VIT supremacy there shouldn't be much else changing the market.
Random thing from Slycer in the BG thread:
I care less about iLevel and more that my job plays weird synched down to 50.
But ... what if I like ice cream? Does that change things.
Crafted armor retroactively nerfed pre release np
You could just go back to bard for that
{over there}
Pretty much. Don't get too hung up on my poor word choice of "perfect", but yeah you still need that execution in a4s, I suppose. Like when I said we needed one good run for a clear, when I said good I suppose I was thinking of not a ton of silly deaths or mistakes. You can still make some once you know what you're supposed to do, but yeah. I feel that A4S requires more of that "perfection" than A1 or A2 do in order to get a clear. I think I prefer the word clean?
My clean requires meeting the checks the fight dictates and not having too many preventable deaths. Mistakes happen and you're allowed them on both 3 and 4, but I think you're less likely to allow them on your very first clear of either fight. Does that make sense?
I would be more surprised if you did. Robots usually don't require sustenance.
Glendemonium
Member
Looks like I might be changing servers soon. Wanted to buy a fantasia and change back into a Hyur but friend moved to be with another longtime buddy of his and they both got into a big casual/hardcore FC over on Lamia, and transfer is pretty pricey, especially after I just blew like 70 dollars in PSN cards to get Dying Light:EH digitally.
I don't have much ties to Midgarsomor, it's where I've started out during ARR beta before I quit for over a year or more but I've made some nice friends there and hate to leave them in our super small FC but at the same time I don't want to miss out on content in which I've had to camp Party Finder for the most part. I just prefer to do it with like minded people and friends, but where I'm at now there's just not enough people on or willing to do older content for glamour like coil or crystal tower.
I don't have much ties to Midgarsomor, it's where I've started out during ARR beta before I quit for over a year or more but I've made some nice friends there and hate to leave them in our super small FC but at the same time I don't want to miss out on content in which I've had to camp Party Finder for the most part. I just prefer to do it with like minded people and friends, but where I'm at now there's just not enough people on or willing to do older content for glamour like coil or crystal tower.
I'm able to hit 1037 DPS on Faust in A1S as a WAR at i197 in full STR gear. Being right up against the lowest parsing DPS classes is still closer than a tank should be. Have big hitters, yes, it's satisfying - but all DPS should be outclassing tanks and healers' damage output by a fair margin. That's the whole point of having them.
That's not even that high for Faust? BRDs/MCH were doing more than that at release of savage, so i190 at best. I'm not seeing an issue. With equal yada yada, WAR is usually around 10-20% behind BRD/MCH. What do you consider fair margin? Half?
You can't completely replace DPS with tanks in content you don't outgear, it's not like they are useless. I honestly can't see a reason to complain that tanks are doing decent damage, unless it's just an epeen thing. I'd love for tanks to be about actually tanking damage but that's not how this game is designed, and therefore what do you really gain from lowering tank potential dps? Nothing would change but things are slower to kill.
The issue here is you're assuming that's a good level for a DPS to be on Faust? Even at the top end we're looking at 200-ish DPS separating the top non-cheesed WAR parses to the next lowest DPS, 15-ish percent difference on ones where they do no tanking.
Put another way, my takeaway from this isn't "Huh, that tank damage" but more "What are the other DPS failing at." If you did 700-800 DPS, I'd still wonder what the DPS is doing wrong.
No Titan or Ramuh set is disappointing.
To be fair, these would be a bit of a challenge to design. XD
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
I'm a little worried about the Astrologian shuffle change. I'm going to miss getting bole 3 times in a row and balance. On the other hand I guess it will be nice to not have 4 constant spires for once *cough*
...wouldn't Ramuh just literally be based off the robe he wears? Seems like the easiest of all the sets.
I'm not sure I follow this. Why are you Shuffling away Balance? And if you're Shuffling it away, why do you want to see it again.
New tome gear in 3.4.
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Gaiaknight
Member
as someone that stopped playing right before heavsward came out how is it i got more free time now that work has settled and i want to get back into playing is it worth the money? Would it also be wroth it at $20 as thats what the digital version is on SE store right now for PC
It's a close enough DPS that I'd want the margin to be higher.
Adjusting levels of DPS output is a step towards changing the game to more mechanics-based content vs heavy DPS checks all the time. I want more stuff like T5, where the DPS check didn't dominate the mood of the encounter. Or Titan EX, probably my favorite primal fight to date.
And then you have the melee and tank sets as basically "red armor, have Ifrit horns." Ramuh's robe still has it's own color scheme and model so just saying "robes are indistinctive" is a bit of a cop out.
I still feel like I'd like an actual number here. "1k" being too close is hard to figure out what you mean when a good DPS should be 3-400+ higher than that anyway and another 300+ on top of that before getting to the top end.
I mean ... there's not that many absurd DPS checks over mechanics?
Let's say 1k vs 1.5k+, rather than 1k vs 1.2-1.3k-1.5k. Could be an upward adjustment for the lower tier DPS classes or adjustment for tanks. More importantly, the point is if they nerf tank DPS there has to be a compensation for it to make tanks worth playing. So the solution would be to make dungeons more mechanically inclined than just raids. Yeah, they said it's supposed to be casual content, but at this point in the patch cycle a majority of the player base has at least enough base experience to start forcing more attentive play. I really enjoyed Steps of Faith, for example, as a step out of the box.
There's gonna be a lot of early frustration with a change like that, but in the long term it would make the game more enjoyable. Less HP sinks -> more mechanics.
EDIT: and my tank is pretty badly geared all things considered, an i210 WAR probably does at least 1.2k
I'd say Heavensward is definitely worth $20, although it doesn't come with a free monthlong subscription so technically the cost is $35~ if you're coming back. Take your time, don't rush.
I do around 1.3k MTing Faust @i210 (i207, technically since I don't swap out to an Eso Slaying Ring because lazy). Comparable performance from most DPS is around 1450-ish range for Bard/Machinist and closer to 1600 for melee. There are top healer parses for Faust that are around the 1k-1.2k mark, is that also a symptom of a problem or just a sign that Faust is trivial enough that everyone gets to fully DPS it? Alongside the fight being short enough (sub-2m) that everyone gets to look inflated.
My point of contention here is why one or the other? You cite Titan EX but that's essentially what A3S is. It's a long series of mechanics that aren't too terribly complex themselves to pull off and the majority of the time is direct uptime on the boss / surviving the fight.
Properly executing DPS + Properly executing mechanics vs just having to do one of them.
Edit: Besides all that, most people wipe to mechanics on fights, not enrages, which is why most of this discussion earlier even started: The misplaced "blame" of the tier on insane DPS checks.
At least the Midas gear looks cool. I'll be happy to get some of those pieces dyed.
I...don't understand the connection you are trying to make here. They already claim fights are designed WITHOUT the upper limit of tank's dps taken into account. Outside of two fights that they claim were overtuned, DPS checks are never the focus to begin with. It's always been mechanics already. What fights are just an HP sink? Even AS3/AS4, the "overtuned" places, had some very important mechanics.
Again, tank dps (in regards to content design) is already assumed to be way lower than what is actually possible. They would not change anything as "compensation" because to them there would be nothing seriously lost.
You are just making a crazy assumption/connection here that fights are designed the way they are because tanks deal decent damage. They have nothing to do with each other. Just making fights more mechanically minded would not alter anything either, it would require a fundamental change to both the entire tank skillset and the entire basis of how the entirety of incoming boss damage is done. Like you mention T5 and Titan EX, both of those have the exact same design as we got now. Steady damage with specific burst you pop a cooldown for and that's it. That entire design is why the tank DPS meta exists, damage is so predictable and spaced so that you can safely focus on maximizing dps while only "tanking" for specific hits.
Suddenly lowering tank damage to be ~35% of dps doesn't suddenly change anything (why is that arbitrary number chosen?). Fights aren't designed with their dps in mind, and the meta would remain the exact same, just numbers would be lower. Nothing of how things actually play would change.
As for more challenging dungeons, I'd love that, but it's never happening unless the hard versions are their own separate thing. You vastly overestimate the skill of the playerbase, or even their desire for more challenging content. Steps of Faith was widely negatively received, and got nerfed into the ground fast because of it. AK normal was nerfed repeatedly to the point of no longer even being fun because of complaints. 4 mans are brain dead because the player base widely called for them to be brain dead.
But still we go back to what the hell does this have to do with tank damage. I seriously cannot follow your train of thought there.
30-50 DRK line is best job quest line in the game. I'd probably argue one of the best period.
I suppose I don't really have a problem with the DPS checks so much as I want fights to be much more mechanics-heavy than they are on average. I also want a lot more out-of-the-box encounters where we're thrown out of our element so to speak. I'm only citing Faust because it's a great example of a DPS check without any pretenses. Burn it ASAP or die. Widening the gap between tank/healer and DPS damage would be a step towards all that, IMO. Another addendum to the out-of-the-box sentiment is throwing more uncertainty into encounters and forcing players to learn to adapt to non-standard situations on the fly. It will absolutely make the game less accessible to people who just want to zone out on Netflix while dungeoning, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
It's about time they started trying to navigate away from the formula of predictable phases, is what I'm trying to get at. It's a pretty nebulous concept but that's the reason I'm not against them adjusting tank DPS. It will be a minor decrease in reality, I'm just spouting my ideal evolution for future expansions. I know Steps of Faith was poorly received, but I enjoyed it immensely for being something different.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
They should go the Monster Hunter route and give us armor sets based off of bosses you fight.
Primal themed sets are a nice step in that direction but Tanks really need their own unique set, preferably something Titan oriented.
Primal themed sets are a nice step in that direction but Tanks really need their own unique set, preferably something Titan oriented.
Yes please. Would love this.
Isn't that basically what they already do with some gear sets? Final coil was based on Bahamut, one of the towers were based on the bosses inside like the wolf, Gordias gear is all steampunk like Alexander.
Long term I don't see this ever changing, as they seem to prefer this type of content design, the challenge is in learning the mechanical pattern and executing it right. You do see some randomness, like they might pick a certain formation for the mechanic from several, but the main idea of the specific mechanic still happening at a specific time is the entire basis of their combat system. That's part of why they can get away with 2.5s GCD, you don't need huge reaction time.
Even Steps of Faith, with it's unique presentation, followed this exact same design. The exact same adds always spawned at the exact same time, you always dealt with them in the exact same way, and the canons/chains were handled the exact same way at the exact same points. The only novel thing about the fight is that it took place on a long run way rather than a circular arena, even the mechanics themselves - the canons/chain stuff, were concepts you saw in past fights.
Alright, I think I understand what you are getting at, and honestly your issue really has nothing to do with how much damage tanks can do right now. They could do a tenth of the damage actual DPS do and it would not change anything. Besides the fact that fights are already designed without tank dps in mind - so nerfing them to some arbitrary number of a real DPS class would not somehow be a step in your desired direction - the real problem is it would take a rather large overhaul of all the tank skills to accommodate a really random, unpredictable, stream of damage. None of the tanks are set up to handle unpredictable damage, hell the healers are not either.
Long term I don't see this ever changing, as they seem to prefer this type of content design, the challenge is in learning the mechanical pattern and executing it right. You do see some randomness, like they might pick a certain formation for the mechanic from several, but the main idea of the specific mechanic still happening at a specific time is the entire basis of their combat system. That's part of why they can get away with 2.5s GCD, you don't need huge reaction time.
Even Steps of Faith, with it's unique presentation, followed this exact same design. The exact same adds always spawned at the exact same time, you always dealt with them in the exact same way, and the canons/chains were handled the exact same way at the exact same points. The only novel thing about the fight is that it took place on a long run way rather than a circular arena, even the mechanics themselves - the canons/chain stuff, were concepts you saw in past fights.
Yeah I don't see them ever changing their formula, Yoshi seems set on the game's design. It's what I desire from the gameplay though, so I'll take whatever bits of uniqueness come out of it, even if it's just infinite respawn down a long runway against a slow moving giant. I see the tank adjustments as a tiny step towards something that could maybe start to be a different methodology towards encounter design if they wanted.
Gaiaknight
Member
thanks went ahead and ordered it but good god is SE online store utter crap its requiring me send a picture of my ID to them and i cant get a response back to find out how to send it to them >.<
HylianScribe
Member
With my limited exposure to other A4S strategies, I guess it never dawned on me that people did this another way. We have group stack in path and MT doesn't have to move at all.
Something major has gone wrong (people dying wrong time) in every one of our A4S kills, including the first. Our first clear was our cleanest to date, but not our fastest. Just our last two clears, I've been a complete moron on the final set of discoid balls we see before kill and forget I have weakness debuff and miscalculate the amount of self healing I need to survive the 2nd ball explosion, putting extra stress on the whole group (and our other healer) so close to the kill.
Some mistakes we just don't even bother with, though. Like our group has a hard rule if the Manipulator gets a stack from a death before final phase we wipe it.
But I get what you mean. We just needed the one run where somebody didn't royally screw up carnage lasers, not messing up feeding dolls,not derping on pentacle sac, and healers being on point for any combination of damage (discoid balls or dolls exploding in particular) + carnage zero.
Could you elaborate on the a bit? I know it's been stated before, but I'm not sure I understand how that is actually true.
I'm not an end-game player by any margin, but this sounds like a disappointing update in terms of changes which should've been obvious out of the gate, like PLD's sucking and AST shuffle not shuffling the same card. How did that even get out of testing? oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Just tell me what you're doing to my job FFS
Are they making it easier somehow? Trying to make us outdamage bard if played well and comparable if played poorly? Ahhhhhhh.
Are they making it easier somehow? Trying to make us outdamage bard if played well and comparable if played poorly? Ahhhhhhh.