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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch

scy

Member
Though I agree that people need to be better, the problem is that you can't expect everyone to want to sink that much practice, which is fine but when one piece of content is supposed to be for two types of player - midcore and hardcore - this is the result.

I'm more disappointed in ... well, that their route to addressing the fight is to strictly dumb it down? Hidden Mines going from 2 to 1 removes basically all of the mechanic. The healing for it is non-existent at that point, it's pretty much just OT busywork. Spirit of the encounter or something like that, basically.

The whole point is to have a steady curve up of difficult mechanics. Just mechanics-wise from what I am seeing (and it's all second hand for A7 and A8S, so sorry there) it's A5<A7<A6<A8 (before nerf at least) so the order of turns should have matched.

I don't think the game has ever really had a steady progression of difficulty for the raid tiers? Like, I only really did Final Coil and Gordias for progression but I'd say both of them didn't really fit that. I suppose I can't say much for A7 first-hand yet but it still has a fair amount to deal with. Overall in terms of "stuff to do", it's a fairly large amount. A6 is very piece-by-piece but it's fairly simple principles per robot too? So eh, it's mostly a wash to me I guess.

In the end, my main point is "nerf A6S so it's easier than A7S" just seems like a strange rationale. I just wish they chose a more interesting way to do some of the changes (seriously, just remove a mine vs, say, adjusting the time between them and dashes + using fewer patterns) and maybe aimed to lowering all the robot's HP a little instead of just Vortexer so groups can smooth out the pulls that make it to him.
 

iammeiam

Member
DPS/HP checks mean nothing, those can be tuned easily, it's just a number. The whole point is to have a steady curve up of difficult mechanics. Just mechanics-wise from what I am seeing (and it's all second hand for A7 and A8S, so sorry there) it's A5<A7<A6<A8 (before nerf at least) so the order of turns should have matched.

I get that they can move the numbers around, it's more that I think A7S is so comparatively mechanics light because the focus of the fight was on the raw DPS/healing. If they take that away, the fight becomes even easier (and all my 7 and 8 knowledge is secondhand too, so.) They generally like having a DPS requirement jump somewhere, and it's traditionally the third fight in the tier. I guess the thing with the expected difficulty curve is that popular opinion generally didn't place Coil at a steady curve in the tier either. This isn't new, and wanting to return to ARR times wouldn't prohibit early floors from being harder than later ones.

It's not a big deal if that's what people are saying they want now, but Coil being the best raid time ever comes up a lot and structurally the difficulty of Midas as I understand it doesn't seem that far afield from Coil.

It's ok for the community to hit a wall, the specific issue with A3S was that it was the hardest fight of the tier so those seeking challenge who stumbled at A3S didn't care to push through once they failed or their group fell apart or whatever because A4S wasn't more exciting and challenging. That's a lot of the issue, raiding is meant to appeal to the challenge seekers, once you wipe them from the equation, the whole thing falls apart.

I honestly hope you're right on this and the A6S nerfs are the end of the difficulty issues with the tier. I still think they could/should have been handled much, much better, but if this is what it takes to get people to chill out and enjoy the fights then it's probably for the best.
 
Loving the game (Ceberus EU) but feeling very lonely. I joined a FC but its a dud. It's the most quiet anti social game I've played, but I take that is not the case if you get into a good FC.
I think thats a thing for a lot of MMOs- Good guilds don't publically advertise because they are content. So people looking for a social leveling guild, just wander around aimlessly. :3
 

studyguy

Member
We started raiding last night, beat Hummelfaust then one of our guys immediately had a city wide power outage. Rekt

Not gonna lie though.
Started playing DS3 immediately after.
 

Vashetti

Banned
Loving the game (Ceberus EU) but feeling very lonely. I joined a FC but its a dud. It's the most quiet anti social game I've played, but I take that is not the case if you get into a good FC.
I think thats a thing for a lot of MMOs- Good guilds don't publically advertise because they are content. So people looking for a social leveling guild, just wander around aimlessly. :3

This is why even being in the UK, I made sure to be on the NA server Ultros so that I could be in the GAF FC.

It's nice to just chat with people in the FC chat. I'm Raphael Loreux if anyone recognises that name from Ultros :p
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
That list of changes makes me really doubt they'll ever do content to actually get players to try and get better. No point in really asking the playerbase to improve and learn alongside the game, just nerf it down.

A8S is still a thing. Quite a thing, yes.
Which of course doesn't make sense, you have A5S which can be done with eyes closed, A6S is now supposedly dead and buried (Reddit would have you believe so anyway) and A7S was never that complicated.
But then you get dodge phases in Brute Justice.
Like, what?
 

creid

Member
This might be a stupid question but I was curious if anyone else had this problem. I recently started playing this on the PS4 so I got myself a USB keyboard to make typing easier. Problem is, the PS4 doesnt recognize a lot of the keys im pressing such as "C, X, A" and so on. Is this a problem with the keyboard I just got or am i doing something wrong?
Hit Enter before you start typing something. Does that make a difference?
 

Thorgal

Member
The msq gave me my i110 gear today .

Tank gear looks great , altough i get the feeling it was made more with WAR in mind then Paladin .

ffxiv_14042016_201311u7i30.jpg

But then there is my caster gear :


somehow i get the idea i should be on stage pulling rabbits out of my hat and playing cards out of my arse , not out there killing stuff and saving the world .:p

BONUS: Thatsapenis.jpeg.

 

Sorian

Banned
It's not a big deal if that's what people are saying they want now, but Coil being the best raid time ever comes up a lot and structurally the difficulty of Midas as I understand it doesn't seem that far afield from Coil.

(Kind of to Scy too but I'm too lazy to multi-quote)

I don't think Coil is the amazing golden goose either. The same problem of weird progression was still apparent but it slid through because "ooooo bahamut!" and "this is so much better than 1.x!" I'm aware that I'm the weird one but raid progression in this game has been consistently bad the whole way through, it's just more apparent now because the new MMO smell has worn off. I expect it which is why we stick around. Gordia was the tier that was way too hard, Midas was what I was expecting to be the way too easy tier but that didn't end up being the case though this early nerf bat is telling me that Endas will be the easy tier instead. MMOs finally figure out the structure after this and really, fight design in this game is great, it's just numbers (expected gear vs. expected damage/healing needed per week) and difficulty progression that I'm hoping they will figure out soon.
 

Squishy3

Member
The msq gave me my i110 gear today .

Tank gear looks great , altough i get the feeling it was made more with WAR in mind then Paladin .



But then there is my caster gear :



somehow i get the idea i should be on stage pulling rabbits out of my hat and playing cards out of my arse , not out there killing stuff and saving the world .:p

BONUS: Thatsapenis.jpeg.
Yup. Enjoy your tailboner
 

Atolm

Member
Are you a WHM? Enjoy not finding a group for awhile. If not, you're in luck, almost every other role is in some demand you can probably find a new group within a week.

I'm SCH main, been raiding with it since 2.0. But tbh I don't know if I want to raid with other people outside from my group, I've been playing with them since Binding Coil and over time you develop very high synergy with other players, certainly my case with my fellow WHM.

Also I don't want to server transfer and lose 150+ million gil.

I think I may quit and try again on 4.0.
 

Valor

Member
This might be a stupid question but I was curious if anyone else had this problem. I recently started playing this on the PS4 so I got myself a USB keyboard to make typing easier. Problem is, the PS4 doesnt recognize a lot of the keys im pressing such as "C, X, A" and so on. Is this a problem with the keyboard I just got or am i doing something wrong?

I have a wireless keyboard that works flawlessly 99% of the time so I'm tempted to assume it's the keyboard itself, and not the system or anything. I usually run into those problems if my keyboard is low on battery or if i'm at a weird angle to the receiver or something.

Re: A6S Nerfs

Real talk, they don't change the fight in a substantial way. Realer talk, A6S is set up in a very brutal fashion. The gauntlet of bosses is a fun and new idea to bring into raiding in 14, and I think a lot of people might not be up to the challenge that comes with the memorization and execution of essentially four minibosses back to back.

People calling for A6S nerfs I'm sure had their reasons for it. I do think this is a knee jerk PR move by SE based on the user fall off from Gordias. I wouldn't freak out over them making this adjustment, and I don't buy into the slippery slope or dangerous precedent arguments just yet. I am tempted to agree more with ThinFinn about it in that if they designed content that didn't need to be tweaked to be acceptable to the userbase, then we wouldn't have this problem.

I think for everyone who has experienced A6S we can agree that Blaster is one of the more difficult of the robots and it's frontloaded in the fight. I don't agree with the removal of one of the mines, but the lessened damage from dashes and shit just allows for mistakes. You still get absurdly punished with damage down stacks for being hit, so it's not like you can totally ignore dashes or shit now. They brought down healing requirements (and off tank busywork/applejacks moments of weirdly placed mirages) but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing since Blaster was a bit of a frontloaded difficulty spike. I don't personally mind those, but I don't think that are particularly good things to have game design wise.

The rest of the nerfs are whatever, honestly. The biggest change is that debuff pass in Vortexer should be mildly less scary for healers to deal with. It also could allow you to fuck up a thunder pass with three people and survive. Or keep someone out of a water stack or whatever. I don't really agree with allowing for mistakes on mechanics and shit but I look at it as something akin to t11 tethers. Imagine if you got too close to the other pair you just flat out died instantly instead of getting vuln stacks? That's essentially the alterations made to a6s in my eyes.

I'm okay with that. Things still hurt, snipers can still kill you, damage down stacks will make enrage harder to hit for some groups, and the fight still has its teeth, albeit baby teeth instead of razor sharp incisors comparatively.

I'm also in agreement that the later you hit a7s and the better geared you are/were for 6 the easier 7 will be. I think we all wanted content that you could make easier with gear, like most of the coils were. I don't find that to be inherently bad design. On the contrary I would consider it rather good design. Could 7 be tuned a bit too low? Maybe. I don't really know or have a very well versed opinion on that yet.

I do feel for people who are making the "why not just get good" arguments because I do agree that asking or nerfs or caving in to demand for easier times is the wrong way to approach a difficult roadblock. I think there was mention of people shouldn't be expected to always want to put in the time to learn fights. Don't raid. Look how easy that was? If you can't be arsed to learn shit about the most difficult content in the game you probably shouldn't be trying to do the most difficult content in the game. Or they should find likeminded people who also don't want to learn so they can all waste each others' time together.

TL;DR A6S nerfs are whatever and not a harbinger of the end of days. Everything is fine, please continue about your day. Please be excited to steal ffxv team members so that Eorzea will become great again.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Was A6S that much harder than T10? I really don't think it was.

The raiding community appears smaller and many that remain just seem to be less willing to put in time to learn/clear things, but I am not seeing much of a difficulty difference between Midas and Coil right now.

Consider we cleared T10 on day two and most groups took several weeks to clear A6S... yeah I'd say T10 was easier just looking at something like that. Maybe people were more motivated back then too like you say? That could be part of it, definitely.
 

iammeiam

Member
Real talk, they don't change the fight in a substantial way.

They absolutely do. The mines nerf is massive and directly nerfs the difficulty of Supercharge, so nerfing dodge failure penalties on top of it is overkill--the only reason anyone should realistically ever eat a dash is misjudging where an OT Mirage or OT-targeting Mirage is going, and now that Hidden Mine duty involves strolling mid (since hidden mines only spawn in one of the center points now) and getting immediately knocked back to the boss, that's not going to happen anymore. The Damage Down from eating a Mirage dash is a non-issue; it was a non-issue before since it's so short-lived and not overly severe, and it's an even bigger non-issue now because...

Vortexer lost around 200,000 HP, the gunners lost a combined total of 28K HP. If you assume minimum clear rDPS in the range of 7500 for the fight, that's basically 30 seconds of DPS your entire raid doesn't have to do on a fight that wasn't super tight pre-nerf. Throw in that the healing requirements overall have been dropped significantly (if the ~10k for a Thunder 2-stack or Water 4-stack unmitigated is true, most of the raid can probably now survive Fire Beam -> Debuff pass with no heals or a rolling Medica 2.) and none of the damage downs matter. With the debuff pass nerfs, even debuff passing with Brink shouldn't be a big deal.

They don't make A6S A6 Normal, but they do substantially alter the encounter.
 
The main argument against "I wish people would put in time to learn end game raid or get better at their jobs/game in general rather than asking for nerfs" or as Galen put it " If you can't be arsed to learn shit about the most difficult content in the game you probably shouldn't be trying to do the most difficult content in the game" is what the heck else is there to do then if you want boss fight style content.

Tell them to go enjoy PVP, Gold Saucer, or Crafitng? What if they're not into that. Dungeons only last so long, as do primals. If you're going to insist on more challenging content that the larger community of XIV players have struggled with and offer nothing else, then enjoy the game being dead by 5.0 if not sooner.

They would have to have more mid-tier raid content, the equivalent of a new boss battle a month that average players can at least attempt and enjoy and realistically clear. Not the stuff thrown at them so far in Gordias and Midas.

And yes, I'm salty I didn't get my pre-nerf A6S clear due to being a leftover/odd person out who couldn't get a group and was also a lockout or two away from clearing it before. I'm not letting go of that for a long time. But I can safely say the nerfs had to happen and you are dilusional to think "git gud" or some manner or "improving the overall skill level of the player base" is ever going to happen at this point.

You need good leaders for that, and XIV is in short supply of talented people who can actually lead, which is hurting all aspects of the game's community, none more immediately as the raid scene. A3S damaged the raid community severely. The top raid groups will tell you this if you ask them, as does most anyone else who tried to raid through A3S. You can bitch about A4S until the universe freezes over, but the truth is almost nobody got to it to experience it's nonsense becuase they got destroyed by A3S.

I told you all over a month ago A6S might have a similar effect, but it's not nearly as bad as A3S. The fact some groups who took forever on A3S finally are getting their A6S clears now just 2 months after Midas landed (thanks to weapons and better gear sooner too) shows it's not as bad.

But people were starting to complain again with the same types of issues they had with A3S. Raid groups began breaking up again. Square Enix had to do something and do it before it was too late (A3S nerfs should have dropped with new relic back last December). I'm honestly shocked they did it this soon, maybe they do want to try to save the raid scene.

Cuz in case you haven't looked outside the GAF bubble on Ultros, our server's raid scene is sickly. It had been on the decline for a while, but the past two weeks saw several good raiders quit or transfer. Heck I wouldn't be on Ultros if not for being stood up, and I may just yet again leave cuz it's just bleak and I do want to raid.

They should also try bringing the cross-server PF out sooner, too. That might help jolt the raid scene a bit. I hope.

Finally, I kind of wish they would consider server
consolidations soon. It's too hard to move everyone manually so I know GAF would never move to a more active server, so here's hoping SE forces is to happen in the near future.
 

BadRNG

Member
You guys know as soon as FFXV is done they will just move on to KH3 or something, why all this optimism about bigger budgets/content for this game. We already got promised that with HW and it was bullshit.

Consider we cleared T10 on day two and most groups took several weeks to clear A6S... yeah I'd say T10 was easier just looking at something like that. Maybe people were more motivated back then too like you say? That could be part of it, definitely.
I actually misspoke and meant T11 to correspond with AS6. The dps check and mechanical dance there are pretty in line with where 6 was. I'm honestly confused why A6S has gotten the reputation it has, jigglybutt's reputation made sense but 6 just reminds me of something like 7 and 11. You fuck up dance and you wipe, the end. The dps check is, er was, slightly more severe but not really far from 11's at all. (7's was way lower but I can only assume it was tuned with the idea that you'd get dps stoned, AS6 and T11 assume you don't fuck everything up)

Honestly if I would of done one thing different, it was have all the savage mode mechanics in the normal one so you could practice easier. All of the dance is easy to learn, you just don't get nearly enough time to experience the later parts with how late in the fight it is. Presenting entirely new one-shot gimmicks 7m into a fight just feels tiresome.
 
I actually misspoke and meant T11 to correspond with AS6. The dps check and mechanical dance there are pretty in line with where 6 was. I'm honestly confused why A6S has gotten the reputation it has, jigglybutt's reputation made sense but 6 just reminds me of something like 7 and 11. You fuck up dance and you wipe, the end. The dps check is, er was, slightly more severe but not really far from 11's at all. (7's was way lower but I can only assume it was tuned with the idea that you'd get dps stoned, AS6 and T11 assume you don't fuck everything up)

My original group, the one that couldn't clear A3S in nearly 4 months (and arguably might have had stronger overall players than our lineup in Final Coil), cleared T11 in like 2 weeks of 1 lockout a night sessions, 3 days a week.

So hell yes, A6s is IMO way harder than T11.
 

Sorian

Banned
My original group, the one that couldn't clear A3S in nearly 4 months (and arguably might have had stronger overall players than our lineup in Final Coil), cleared T11 in 2 weeks of 1 lockout a night sessions, 3 days a week.

So hell yes, A6s is IMO way harder than T11.

>_>

My memory is different than yours on this.

I feel like it was longer than 2 weeks though I'll readily admit that I don't remember that too well but we definitely did 2 lockout sessions every night we raided, 3 hours (usually cut off the last 20 minutes or less of the second lockout)
 

iammeiam

Member
They would have to have more mid-tier raid content, the equivalent of a new boss battle a month that average players can at least attempt and enjoy and realistically clear. Not the stuff thrown at them so far in Gordias and Midas.

This I agree with. We need more content. We need content between faceroll easy and Savage. We need more in general. But all we keep getting are staffing excuses, which is a problem. I know we're all hoping FFXV is at fault and it'll ease up soon, but I dunno.

But I can safely say the nerfs had to happen and you are dilusional to think "git gud" or some manner or "improving the overall skill level of the player base" is ever going to happen at this point.

Why snuck into a PVP patch with no heads up that they were definitively coming with a pre-announced date, though? I don't get to speak for anyone but me, but my knee-jerk negative reaction stems heavily from them spending most of Gordias saying they were monitoring clears, doing nothing, and then saying similar things about Midas and stealth nerfing. Because 6S isn't the end, and if we have complaints in a month or two about A8S and my slow ass is still on it, am I going to log in and find it surprise nerfed too? Part of my problem is that for me it's not even "git gud"; I legitimately believe there are people progressing on A6S that would have cleared just fine this week without nerfs, and there are people struggling that just needed to clean up a thing or two to move on. Stuff like this and A3S always turns into people side-eyeing elitism, and my stance is consistently: People can do this, and if they don't think they can the why behind it should be figured out and fixed.

We cleared A4S when we did in large part because their Gordias stance re:nerfs had us worried nerfs were coming in the relic patch, we reached a point where we realized a clear was in sight, and we wanted to beat the nerfs out of respect for the time and effort we'd dumped into the fight that far. So we pushed hard. No nerfs came. This time we lucked out in clearing A6S pre-nerf, but knowing the possibility is out there--and not just to nerf specific pain points, but just randomly chop off large sections of boss HP because whynot--is discouraging go forward.


You need good leaders for that, and XIV is in short supply of talented people who can actually lead, which is hurting all aspects of the game's community, none more immediately as the raid scene.

Is it really that uncommon to have groups with no real leader? Not sarcastic, I'm actually asking--I kind of favor collaborative anarchy where everyone does their own thing and trades information and it just kind of works out over somebody dictating, but a lot of raid discussion seems to center on the importance of leadership.

But people were starting to complain again with the same types of issues they had with A3S. Raid groups began breaking up again. Square Enix had to do something and do it before it was too late (A3S nerfs should have dropped with new relic back last December). I'm honestly shocked they did it this soon, maybe they do want to try to save the raid scene.

Cuz in case you haven't looked outside the GAF bubble on Ultros, our server's raid scene is sickly. It had been on the decline for a while, but the past two weeks saw several good raiders quit or transfer. Heck I wouldn't be on Ultros if not for being stood up, and I may just yet again leave cuz it's just bleak and I do want to raid.

Our second night, I think, in A6S I asked if anybody else was wondering how this would go over with the raiding community. It seemed to be exactly what people said they wanted--mechanics over damage, Coilesque encounter design--but it felt a lot like fights people said they didn't want. I don't think 6 turning into the pain point that 3 was is surprising, but that SE has no plan for dealing with it beyond turning the difficulty knob down worries me because 6 is all about preparing you for 8, and I'm not sure how this is going to help people prep for 8 at all.

My overall concern is I have no idea what a large chunk of the raiding community actually thinks fights should be like at this point, aside from a thing that takes 8 people as a coordination wall to get into, and dispenses loot after a couple of weeks. SE randomly guessing what the raid community wants is leading to misleading feedback ("WE WANT MECHANICS!" "OH GOD WHY ARE THERE SUCH MECHANICS!") which brought us here.
 

Valor

Member
Presenting entirely new one-shot gimmicks 7m into a fight just feels tiresome.
I think this is why it has the bad rep. T11 you can die at the end and it's whatever okay start over. A6 just feels like it takes forever. I don't remember the clear times for 11 (10 minutes or so? sub 10? i feel it's comparable to 6, am i off on that? I don't remember clearly) but i think fighting one boss for x minutes versus fighting four bosses just "feels" different to people? I don't mind it because I look at the time it takes and splitting it up keeps the pulls fresh and fun for me, but I can see how others see it as a marathon. That's only my assumption, in any case.

They absolutely do.
I understand everything you said, I just think I disagree with how much it changes the fight. Maybe I'll change my opinion after playing through it tonight. I'm very open minded about recanting if I'm proven wrong.
 

Jayhawk

Member
I understand everything you said, I just think I disagree with how much it changes the fight. Maybe I'll change my opinion after playing through it tonight. I'm very open minded about recanting if I'm proven wrong.

Why am I saving you a seat to tonight's screening of Civil War if you're raiding?
 
Astrologian bubble can be stunned now. That's a pretty stupid thing to change, if you ask me. Good going, SE. lol. I guess I'll have to place it properly now and if I get aoe'd gg. It isn't like that bubble was meant to protect the party or anything, lol.
 

BadRNG

Member
My original group, the one that couldn't clear A3S in nearly 4 months (and arguably might have had stronger overall players than our lineup in Final Coil), cleared T11 in like 2 weeks of 1 lockout a night sessions, 3 days a week.

So hell yes, A6s is IMO way harder than T11.
I don't like using days between clears as indicator of difficulty, there are so many little things that can change that up. It looks like we were about two weeks between 10 and 11 too, and were like 4 with 5 to 6. But that was with having to replace someone and not being to raid as often as usual. I'm not going to look at that as being twice as hard.

On an actual mechanical/dps level I don't see much of a difficulty gap.

I think this is why it has the bad rep. T11 you can die at the end and it's whatever okay start over. A6 just feels like it takes forever. I don't remember the clear times for 11 (10 minutes or so? sub 10? i feel it's comparable to 6, am i off on that? I don't remember clearly) but i think fighting one boss for x minutes versus fighting four bosses just "feels" different to people? I don't mind it because I look at the time it takes and splitting it up keeps the pulls fresh and fun for me, but I can see how others see it as a marathon. That's only my assumption, in any case.
T11 had new insta wipe stuff at end too though, I wasn't using that as a difference between the two, just something I did not like about AS6's specific fight design. That design is actually something SE likes to use in several fights and I'm never a fan.

But yeah the fight does have a different feel to it, but if anything I'd say that it actually makes it feel easier - it's basically a normal single encounter boss but you get break and a breather before the phase change. That made it easier for me to digest/prepare for each phase. Maybe I am alone there.
 

Valor

Member
But yeah the fight does have a different feel to it, but if anything I'd say that it actually makes it feel easier - it's basically a normal single encounter boss but you get break and a breather before the phase change. That made it easier for me to digest/prepare for each phase. Maybe I am alone there.

Nah I think I'm in agreement with you on that, so you aren't totally alone, just mostly alone.
 

ebil

Member
Astrologian bubble can be stunned now. That's a pretty stupid thing to change, if you ask me. Good going, SE. lol. I guess I'll have to place it properly now and if I get aoe'd gg. It isn't like that bubble was meant to protect the party or anything, lol.
It's only going to prevent dropping the bubble before getting stunned by abilities like Chandrahas in Ravana Ex or Down For The Count in both A3s and Thordan Ex for PVE encounters. It's not a particularly big deal and the mechanics aren't even in fights that are relevant anymore.
 

Squishy3

Member
It's only going to prevent dropping the bubble before getting stunned by abilities like Chandrahas in Ravana Ex or Down For The Count in both A3s and Thordan Ex for PVE encounters. It's not a particularly big deal and the mechanics aren't even in fights that are relevant anymore.
Yeah spear of might hits like a wet noodle now.

Especially I as a DRG have 17.3k HP.
 

scy

Member
Re: A6S Nerfs

It's ... hard to quite say it, I guess, but I get what their goals are with the changes but I'm not sure why they chose the ways they went about it.

Blaster - There's really only three mechanics here: Mirage Dashes, Mirage Tethers, and Mines. The first two are basically able to be treated as the same and the latter interferes with the first so I can get why they decided to speed up the mines by halving it but it essentially turns it into a non-mechanic. Put another way, shifting fight timers around (move a GCD in between mines and Mirage, trim the amount of mine patterns available) can retain the entirety of the mechanic and still give control to the players for dealing with Mirage. They simply omitted mines as anything beyond "make sure the OT hits it or we die."

Brawler - Honestly, not ... too much they could do to the Betas to make them easier to handle. I'd have figured they'd instead just slow them down even more so you can get away with just a stun to get them into proper timings but tweaking their damage gets the same goal. The issue here is it's literally the entire mechanic of just "stagger the damage so people live" and now it's approaching "or don't, it won't kill you anyway" which feels a little awkward.

Swindler - No real comment, not much in this fight to have changed since his actual mechanics are pretty binary. Truth be told, I figured if they nerfed any damage it was going to be his AoE by making it Magic damage instead of Darkness or just flat out reducing it a bit.

Vortexer - I'm torn here. They shaved out basically one entire debuff pass worth of HP? I guess they had a lot (a lot) of Enrage-based wipes and figured doing that here made the most sense to remove it. I'm not sure I agree with that yet, most of the Vortexer fight with relation to the rest of the robots DPS check-wise felt appropriate at the "around two rotations" mark for how long he'd survive and he's really straightforward once you know your plan. I think if they did the HP cut on the other robots to get people to Vortexer smoother / faster it would have worked out better but I guess they also don't want A6S to be thought of as "Vortexer and friends" but as "these 4 robot dudes" and bringing him down a peg HP wise helps that.

tl;dr: Blaster mechanic essentially removed, Brawler mechanic borderline trivialized, Swindler change removes an edge case, and Vortexer change could have instead been spread to the other robots to make getting to him easier. I wish they changed the fights in a more invisible manner that meant what you did was the same but now smoother rather than tell you to do less.

The main argument against "I wish people would put in time to learn end game raid or get better at their jobs/game in general rather than asking for nerfs" or as Galen put it " If you can't be arsed to learn shit about the most difficult content in the game you probably shouldn't be trying to do the most difficult content in the game" is what the heck else is there to do then if you want boss fight style content.

...

They would have to have more mid-tier raid content, the equivalent of a new boss battle a month that average players can at least attempt and enjoy and realistically clear. Not the stuff thrown at them so far in Gordias and Midas.

I mean, that's the entire point of what I've been saying? I don't really get the point of culling the content they do have. Right now the situation stands to me that there's a void of difficulty still in the game when you compare A8S to everything else and bringing A6S down a peg simply widens the gap. It's a void that they have yet to fill and every time they start having content to do it, they nerf it or relegate it to useless. This isn't some cry to get harder and harder things, it's to get more content to fill more gaps and let the playerbase develop.

You've said it a lot on it'd be great if we got more EX Primal-styled content and I do agree on that? I wish we got more fights like that. And I wish we got real harder dungeons that simply asked for players to do more damage, do more mechanics, and react better (aka, just tweak values, not full-blown new assets). Just more things to players to be doing "raid level" content at more times to help fill the gaps in the game so it's not faceroll <-> raid only.

Cuz in case you haven't looked outside the GAF bubble on Ultros, our server's raid scene is sickly. It had been on the decline for a while, but the past two weeks saw several good raiders quit or transfer. Heck I wouldn't be on Ultros if not for being stood up, and I may just yet again leave cuz it's just bleak and I do want to raid.

Here's the thing, the raid scene in general (across many MMOs) is fairly bleak and a large problem, at least with 14, is there's a wide gap of player skill levels and many of them just flat out cannot do the content. For many of them, it's not because they physically cannot, just that there's not a lot of reason for them to do so until then and not much to go off of to base themselves. SSS was supposed to be some kind of stopgap solution to this, I guess, but that really did not pan out in the slightest.

I feel like by and large most of the playerbase got relatively worse with the addition of Heavensward. Not necessarily their own faults but just a lot of new complexities with jobs, burn out, more gimmicks in raids, etc as well as just the ceilings for every job going a lot higher / the skill gaps being larger. So you have fights that ask a bit more, players doing a bit less, and not much to help get them where they need to go. In many ways, I think we're on the same page for what the raid situation is like, I'm just more focused on there not being as large of an able body ready and willing to do the content vs there not being the people to lead said body. I want to see the playerbase slowly being built up rather than things brought down.

In the end it's about fun and whatever their budget is. Either we eventually get more content and more midcore things to do or we end up with no Savage-tier content going forward. Guess we'll have to see how things go.
 

aceface

Member
Why don't they just keep savage mode as released and simultaneously release the nerfed version as hard mode for the midcore crowd, bam job done everyone's happy.
 

Valor

Member
tl;dr: Blaster mechanic essentially removed, Brawler mechanic borderline trivialized, Swindler change removes an edge case, and Vortexer change could have instead been spread to the other robots to make getting to him easier. I wish they changed the fights in a more invisible manner that meant what you did was the same but now smoother rather than tell you to do less.

Sure! I totally agree with that. Like I definitely don't see the sniper hp reduction, personally. Blaster got a bit overnerfed since why even include hidden mine now at this point? I dunno! Like I said I'm really interested to get back in there tonight and see it for myself so I can formulate a better opinion than conjecture.

I feel Vortexer just allows you to make a lot more mistakes, which is okay to me. I mean it kind of doesn't because ohko, but... you know what I mean. It's more lenient which is fine with me. I feel the robots are all about the same difficulty now on paper instead of awkward difficulty spikes at the start and finish. That's just my feeling, but like I said I may feel differently after i head back in.
 
>_>

My memory is different than yours on this.

I feel like it was longer than 2 weeks though I'll readily admit that I don't remember that too well but we definitely did 2 lockout sessions every night we raided, 3 hours (usually cut off the last 20 minutes or less of the second lockout)

I know we cleared it the quickest of any turn we did progression on. So maybe two lockouts a day, but it was roughly two weeks. We cleared and thought it was because we got almost all tank tethers, then we cleared it easily the next week with the more complicated tether patterns.
 

iammeiam

Member
Given that the thing everyone complains about the most in A6S is essentially just divebombs you can't cheat without the instadeath wall, I'm not sure channeling ARR would actually go over well anymore.

I think that's my mental breakdown over this; the super hardcore uber leet mechanic is divebombs. All the other nerfs weren't even things people were really asking for all that much, just sort of "while we're in there".

They need to give us more content; I don't know that they can get away with the same raid three times, but they need to do something to actually foster player progression because this is clearly not working.
 

rubius01

Member
I know we cleared it the quickest of any turn we did progression on. So maybe two lockouts a day, but it was roughly two weeks. We cleared and thought it was because we got almost all tank tethers, then we cleared it easily the next week with the more complicated tether patterns.

Its gotta be more than two weeks, 'cause, man, it sure as shit felt like the rest, time-wise.

But what do I know, I wasn't paying much attention anyways......
 

ThinFinn

Member
Why do fights need to be perfectly scaled easy to hard based on the number they appear though? We haven't actually been inside 7 yet/won't be for a bit but even if its much easier than 6, why is that such a bad thing. If it wasn't for enrage cheese T4 would be easier than T2, T7 was harder than T8, etc. I don't get the obsession with perfect progression all of a sudden. It's not like this was a gear check encounter, the only time I could buy that argument.

I mean it really depends your class and each individual's responsibilities. As a bard, no way will I say T7 was more difficult than T8 since I was not the one kiting in the former, and the latter had me personally handling homing missiles, brain jack, towers while ensuring I was stacked at specific moments for ballistic and gaseous AND maximizing dps before enrage is triggered.

I'm also going to stick with my opinion that A6S was not substantially harder than something like T7. It didn't dump a disproportionate amount of responsibility on a single kiter, instead requiring responsibility from everyone, but even pre-nerf it was way more forgiving of individual mistakes and lacked the SCoB "bad phase push? git rekt!" philosophy.

I actually think that's the main issue people are having with A6S. With the previous Coil encounters, mechanical duties are often burdened onto a single competent member, thus "carrying" was possible back then.

With how A6S is designed, a single mistake from a member can easily cause a wipe:
Blaster - Oh, someone's not baiting Mirages right? Good luck dodging that Supercharge going through the middle of the arena.
Brawler - Did a non tank eat a green orb? Have fun DPSing/healing through Alphas and Betas.
Swindler - Opps, someone died to height, guess we won't have enough bodies for the next stacking circles
Vortexer - Was I not supposed to stack here? *Wipes to punishing wave/thunder

A6S emphasizes so much on individual expertise than what people are used to. Coupled with a dwindling raiding scene, and you have people like Korra who are stuck in limbo. Not because they aren't competent, but because it's difficult to find 7 other members who are decent enough to carry their own weight and are at the same stage of progression. It's easy for people who are already in decent groups to say that the community is giving up too early, but I'm totally with the consensus that SE had no choice but to implement these nerfs to encourage people back into raiding, albeit it being nothing more a short term solution.

I am pretty lucky to have found the group that I did and shudder to think what might have been if I was left without a static.
 

iammeiam

Member
It's easy for people who are already in decent groups to say that the community is giving up too early, but I'm totally with the consensus that SE had no choice but to implement these nerfs to encourage people back into raiding, albeit it being nothing more a short term solution.

I am pretty lucky to have found the group that I did and shudder to think what might have been if I was left without a static.

This the second tier in a row with the same basic issue--SE expecting the players to be up for a challenge, some of the players being offended at the idea (and pre-nerf A6S is still nothing on the back half of last tier)--and they're doing nothing to address the actual issue. What happens to these people when they hit A8S, which is again full of mechanics (which people asked for! but forgot to specify optional) and personal responsibility and a considerably higher healing check? More nerfs? Is it okay because it's the final fight? What about when groups break apart on the final fight? The hardest part of raiding being finding a group has been a thing for years, and the more selective you are the harder it gets. That's not new here? The game overall, not just raiding, is worse off now than it was in ARR, and that's something they need to address, but nerfing A6S doesn't really fix that.

And, again, none of this explains how they chose to do this, which continues to be my biggest objection--the decision to neuter current content with no real communication beforehand. Even if these nerfs magically fix the entire raid scene (they won't--Gordias wasn't the only thing horribly wrong with HW, and nerfing the raid doesn't make the other issues go away), there's 0 reason they had to just randomly drop them in a PVP patch instead of just announcing the patch a week or two in advance.
 
I remember being shocked when we cleared 12 in roughly 2 weeks. 11 was a mess as we had a SCH alt subbing as a SMN until we could fill up.

Those were the days.
 

Valor

Member
I don't recant what I've been saying. Blaster has been totally trivialized to a laughable degree, but the rest of the fight feels very much the same. The lessened healer burden in Vortexer is nice but it will not result in clears because of it, I don't think. Felt more or less like the same set of fights except Brawler orbs are way less dangerous like ~9000ish raid damage with the mitigation we put on it. The rest is pretty much the same. Helps those who know the fight, and will make the learning curve much more manageable i feel.
 

scy

Member
I don't recant what I've been saying. Blaster has been totally trivialized to a laughable degree, but the rest of the fight feels very much the same. The lessened healer burden in Vortexer is nice but it will not result in clears because of it, I don't think. Felt more or less like the same set of fights except Brawler orbs are way less dangerous like ~9000ish raid damage with the mitigation we put on it. The rest is pretty much the same. Helps those who know the fight, and will make the learning curve much more manageable i feel.

I need kappa emotes
 

Tenrius

Member
Loving the game (Ceberus EU) but feeling very lonely. I joined a FC but its a dud. It's the most quiet anti social game I've played, but I take that is not the case if you get into a good FC.
I think thats a thing for a lot of MMOs- Good guilds don't publically advertise because they are content. So people looking for a social leveling guild, just wander around aimlessly. :3

This is why even being in the UK, I made sure to be on the NA server Ultros so that I could be in the GAF FC.

It's nice to just chat with people in the FC chat. I'm Raphael Loreux if anyone recognises that name from Ultros :p

I'm on Exodus (NA) and have kinda the same feelings. The FC I joined is pretty much dead, there's probably 2 active people most of the time. In retrospect, not getting on Ultros was a mistake (it was unavailable when I first started the game and I didn't want to wait).
 

Thorgal

Member
Loving the game (Ceberus EU) but feeling very lonely. I joined a FC but its a dud. It's the most quiet anti social game I've played, but I take that is not the case if you get into a good FC.
I think thats a thing for a lot of MMOs- Good guilds don't publically advertise because they are content. So people looking for a social leveling guild, just wander around aimlessly. :3

You can join my FC.

artemis moonlight.

We are very active during primetime.
 

Omni

Member
Did Turn 7 for the first time. Had a lot of fun! Must have taken us an hour to clear, haha. Really want that healing coat since I don't think I'll be able to afford the crafted one any time soon. No idea how farm parties would go though, so I'm hesitant about starting those (Seph farming for birds is getting stale so it might be good to mix things up). Fight doesn't seem like something you can carry people through terribly well. Maybe with more people perhaps.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
I don't recant what I've been saying. Blaster has been totally trivialized to a laughable degree, but the rest of the fight feels very much the same. The lessened healer burden in Vortexer is nice but it will not result in clears because of it, I don't think. Felt more or less like the same set of fights except Brawler orbs are way less dangerous like ~9000ish raid damage with the mitigation we put on it. The rest is pretty much the same. Helps those who know the fight, and will make the learning curve much more manageable i feel.

Eve with those failed debuff passes tho.
 

Valor

Member
Eve with those failed debuff passes tho.

Hmm. Did he mess up a debuff pass? The worst offender I think ended up being Felix not counting down water once. I think we died mostly to misplaced ice and my beautiful fire pillar directly at the ice block smh.
 

iammeiam

Member
Hmm. Did he mess up a debuff pass? The worst offender I think ended up being Felix not counting down water once. I think we died mostly to misplaced ice and my beautiful fire pillar directly at the ice block smh.

IIRC, the nerf helped you guys on your clear in that Felix stacked for pass, ate the damage, got the debuff, ate a tether during ice placement, and dipped below 1.5k hp while carrying Compressed Water on the first ice drop. Pre Crashing Water nerf, that'd have been a wipe, due to the same bad ice drop positioning that dogged you guys through most of the runs. Post-damage-nerf, it was a pass. You didn't need the nerfs to clear, but they removed some of the cleanup/learning I guess is how I'd put it?

I dunno, I guess we just agree to disagree? Completely wrecking 1/4 robots, removing the biggest difficulty component of the second, and nerfing both the damage output to allow for failing mechanics and HP of the 4th seems pretty major to me. I'd draw a comparison to say week 4 or 5 A1S vs i210 A1S. It's the same fight, but it's not?
 
Had a farm party last night with a couple of people and we cleared seph ex about 7 times in a row. Two times the bird dropped and I missed on both rolls. My friend rolled a 99.... utter bs (brooding). Ah well.... the fight is incredibly simple at least. Now that I have cleared it about 10 times, it really is a cakewalk. Might need to consider progressing Thordan. There is the df for that so maybe people there can teach me stuff after meteors.
 
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