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[Jayhawk]

It's pretty typical for an MMO to only have single-digit percentage clear rates for the hardest content before overgearing takes place. Look at this lovely chart for WoW from September 2015.

Numbers from last year mention that only 18% of the player-base in Destiny completed a raid.

What the above graph suggests is that WoW presented enough content for a gradual progresion in difficulty. If we included normal mode Midas, Void Ark, and savage mode Midas, I wonder how a completion rate graph would even look like. Going back to the coil model isn't going to fix the issue of this game not providing enough content with varying difficulties.

 

[scy]

Even with the nerfs A6S isn't faceroll easy so tears are unwarranted.

See, I don't think anyone ever really argued about it being faceroll, just that it was a terrible approach to nerfing the fight (and that nerfing it during the tier is potentially an awkward precedent for the future).

It's one thing if they did things to make it easier to respect the mechanics of the fight; it's another to make it easier to ignore them. They did more of the latter than the former.

The gunner nerf was pointless sure but the other stuff was mostly for healers which is most definitely addressing a specific issue - damage was really high in there and now it's a little more forgiving but you can still wipe just as easy as we found out this week.

I'm not really sure wiping to something on farm indicates anything about difficulty.

As for the damage being high, I mean ... they didn't really just trim the damage in the fight? Blaster change essentially removed the mechanic and Vortexer you already had control on reducing the damage (5-6 stack water instead of 4). The Brawler change made it easier to heal through but the rest were more messing with how much of a mechanic you get to ignore.

 

[iammeiam]

The gunner nerf was pointless sure but the other stuff was mostly for healers which is most definitely addressing a specific issue - damage was really high in there and now it's a little more forgiving but you can still wipe just as easy as we found out this week.

Water passing damage you could control, though; we 5/6 stacked every pass to handle the mechanic and decrease healing burden significantly. Lightning damage nerf makes more sense in that the floor was high before, but water damage could be planned around to be a non-issue and groups choosing to only 3 or 4 stack were choosing the higher damage. The water nerf combined with the HP nerf is absolutely just them throwing everything they can at the fight to make it a non-issue.

Being able to still wipe is a fairly low standard of difficulty; full groups of 60s still worked out ways to ignore enough mechanics to wipe in unsynced Coil. Wasn't because it was hard, just because it did still contain a few things you had to do.

 

[Kagari]

It means it isn't as faceroll easy as you're trying to make it out to be.

And if you're worried about them setting a precedent, they already messed with stuff back in first Coil. In the end, who cares if more people are allowed to have fun.

 

[scy]

It means it isn't as faceroll easy as you're trying to make it out to be.

I feel like repeating "faceroll" over and over is just trying to not even attempt any real discussion :|

In the end, who cares if more people are allowed to have fun.

It's not about whether or not people are allowed to have fun? Like, trying to make it as some anti-fun argument is pretty disingenuous here.

 

[Jayhawk]

Speaking of A6S, while I love nin, I kinda prefer mnk for that fight. Dealing with adds in the second boss is a bit easier when you have two stuns on hand to slow them down instead of one.

Are your DPS really overwhelmed to need one additional stun? At most, three alphas pop at the same time and you'd have tanks with stuns while they're on their way with dealing with mechanics, so that extra stun seems like a weird reason to prefer MNK over NIN for Brawler add phase.

 

[EndcatOmega]

I legitimately have zero idea of what Guild Wars is like these days.

They actually added raiding so I undermined whatever point I was trying to make anyway, even if did appear to kill all other content in the game for a while.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Are your DPS really overwhelmed to need one additional stun? At most, three alphas pop at the same time and you'd have tanks with stuns while they're on their way with dealing with mechanics, so that extra stun seems like a weird reason to prefer MNK over NIN for Brawler add phase.

With the group I was with, it did seem at times as if the group got overwhelmed by them.

Things may be different with this new static I'm trying out, we shall see!

 

[Jayhawk]

They actually added raiding so I undermined whatever point I was trying to make anyway, even if did appear to kill all other content in the game for a while.

Guild Wars 2 raiding is the reason for docbon's nightly disappearances from Discord. He would be a good person to ask about the current raid scene.

 

[scy]

Guild Wars 2 raiding is the reason for docbon's nightly disappearances from Discord. He would be a good person to ask about the current raid scene.

rip rip rip

 

[iammeiam]

In the end, who cares if more people are allowed to have fun.

I care because if they're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, they don't have a clear plan for designing the raid and we're going to end up with problems every tier. I also care because the implication is wiping to things and improving over time can't be fun, fun only happens during loot phase.

The game needs to be better about giving people the tools to improve and challenge themselves, but the focus is never on that. Nothing in A7S is outside the reach of the average player, but the game is horrible about communicating this to people (unless and until you're in Savage, nothing comes close to expecting you to be even half-competent.) And I'd rather they fix that than just make it easier so people continue to underestimate what they can do.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

I think you overestimate the skill of the average player in XIV.

 

[EndcatOmega]

What is fun, does it give lore

 

[HylianScribe]

If they would just introduce a proper raid practice mode where you can jump to certain parts of the fight somehow, as well as control certain conditions (like LB meter, maybe buffs), then that might help the situation more than going the nerf hammer route.

For starters, trying to learn Vortexer would be much easier. I get people did "dry runs" outside the fight where they place markers and somebody calls out who got what elemental wide, but real-time practice is better.

Also, it might encourage people already in statics to be more generous and actually come help people learn, and they could also focus on just a part of the fight without the headache of getting there. Getting their cleanly could be those people/group's problem to work out, but just to get in practice on certain mechanics or phase.

But I mean, as I've said before, if nerfs/echo makes overall population happy and SE sees the #s support what they were trying to do, I personally don't care. I can play difficult games elsewhere, XIV is not supposed to be that. And the barrier of getting people together is getting worse, so they should try out solutions to see if it works.

But they do need more PVE content that provides somewhat meaningful rewards (nice glamours), they also should consider a third tier difficulty for raiding (HM/EX/Savage), and they should consider raid content requiring less than 8 people.

 

[iammeiam]

I think you overestimate the skill of the average player in XIV.

No. I don't doubt that the average player doesn't care enough to improve to that point, which is fine because the average player doesn't want to raid in the first place, but I do doubt that it asks anything they're innately incapable of doing. I've never really bought into the idea that clearing content is deeply tied to innate skill--it's more a function of effort and planning.

The problem is 95% of the game doesn't require either of those, so when you hit the one thing that does the brain shuts down and declares it too much.

What is fun, does it give lore

just think

if they'd nerfed Blaster sooner

that conversation might never have happened

 

[Tomat]

So I'm not the only one who thought of poop jokes to help me understand that mechanic at first.

Proud of you Makoto.

 

[Sorian]

It's more to me that we're basically at the point of are they going towards raid content you expect to take time to learn over the course of the patch vs it exists as a loot source for the course of the patch.

Guess we'll see if it sticks with MMO design or MMO-lite (or whatever I'm supposed to call things like Destiny) design. Feel like either way we need "more content" to support whatever route they go. More midcore things for the former, more generic timesinks for the latter.

MMO-lite doesn't support a monthly sub model. The answer should be obvious

Spoiler

#segonnase

 

[Jayhawk]

Ketsen liked to use poop-related mnemonics for those tethered mirages too... which leads to questions such as "when in life do you stare directly at people pooping?"

 

[Tomat]

Ketsen liked to use poop-related mnemonics for those tethered mirages too... which leads to questions such as "when in life do you stare directly at people pooping?"

Which is what made the whole thought that much more amusing.

 

[Sorian]

If they would just introduce a proper raid practice mode where you can jump to certain parts of the fight somehow, as well as control certain conditions (like LB meter, maybe buffs), then that might help the situation more than going the nerf hammer route.

For starters, trying to learn Vortexer would be much easier. I get people did "dry runs" outside the fight where they place markers and somebody calls out who got what elemental wide, but real-time practice is better.

Also, it might encourage people already in statics to be more generous and actually come help people learn, and they could also focus on just a part of the fight without the headache of getting there. Getting their cleanly could be those people/group's problem to work out, but just to get in practice on certain mechanics or phase.

But I mean, as I've said before, if nerfs/echo makes overall population happy and SE sees the #s support what they were trying to do, I personally don't care. I can play difficult games elsewhere, XIV is not supposed to be that. And the barrier of getting people together is getting worse, so they should try out solutions to see if it works.

But they do need more PVE content that provides somewhat meaningful rewards (nice glamours), they also should consider a third tier difficulty for raiding (HM/EX/Savage), and they should consider raid content requiring less than 8 people.

Baby steps, I'd like it if they just reset cool downs every time the instance resets on wipe.

just think

if they'd nerfed Blaster sooner

that conversation might never have happened

Also to jayhawk above. That was me that said it was the robot pooping and I don't stare at people pooping, my dog likes to make eye contact while he poops, the robot is the same.

 

[irfaanator]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQoJo81lujk

 

[Jayhawk]

Also to jayhawk above. That was me that said it was the robot pooping and I don't stare at people pooping, my dog likes to make eye contact while he poops, the robot is the same.

Wait, you have a mic?

 

[iammeiam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQoJo81lujk

I don't know what I was expecting

 

[Tomat]

))<>((

Should we return to raid discussion now?

 

[Thorgal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdzSN6Zc2Zw

This thread is now officially about poop.

 

[Frumix]

Literal shitposting.

 

[rubius01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFvbaMD2P-0

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Ive had that same idea before too Korra. That would be my dream. Is there any precedent for that in the mmo world? Probably not.

I don't understand this nebulous fear of their design philosophy. I'm just grateful they actually got off their asses and did something proactive this time around rather than sitting there for another 6 months twiddling their fucking thumbs. Aside from the single mine (#blessed) these weren't post echo level nerfs.

 

[Tomat]

It means it isn't as faceroll easy as you're trying to make it out to be.

I feel like this whole "Nerf It Vs Don't Nerf It" argument comes back to the lack of challenging content that falls between exdr-tier difficulty and savage. Primals are in the middle there somewhere but they're few and far between. People might be less inclined to call for savage nerfs if they had more battle content outside of Savage that required a decent amount of team play and personal responsibility.

Nerfing content that only a small percentage of the game's community is going to complete is the easiest way to fill that gap right now.

The whole fractured raid community due to the last tier of raids also helps none of this. Although I don't think nerfing fights is a good fix to that. It doesn't seem like an easy problem to fix.

 

[HylianScribe]

I feel like this whole "Nerf It Vs Don't Nerf It" argument comes back to the lack of challenging content that falls between exdr-tier difficulty and savage. Primals are in the middle there somewhere but they're few and far between. People might be less inclined to call for savage nerfs if they had more battle content outside of Savage that required a decent amount of team play and personal responsibility.

As it is, nerfing content that only a small percentage of the game's community is going to complete is the easiest way to fill that gap.

The whole fractured raid community due to the last tier of raids also helps none of this. Although I don't think nerfing fights is a good fix to that. It doesn't seem like an easy problem to fix.

The biggest problem is that the "hardest" content requires 8 people to get together over time at set days/times and maintain that commitment.

I don't think its fair for others to define whether or not people really want to raid based on their personal definition/experiences, that's pretty ridiculous to force your thoughts of how it should be on to others and say people need to get more in line with that mentality.

Instead, Square Enix should be brainstorming ways to make the game's content as accessible as possible, including raiding, and not listen to an elitist, ivory tower vocal minority who want to define the raiding experience for the entire player base.

I applaud them for acknowledging the existing raid setup is problematic and can't sustain itself. Some things have to change. Cross-server functionality will alleviate some of the issues for people more on the aggressive end of the spectrum who like challenging content and have the time to do it.

 

[Tomat]

The biggest problem is that the "hardest" content requires 8 people to get together over time at set days/times and maintain that commitment.

Is this inherently a problem? Or is it only a problem because there isn't enough challenging content out that does not require those things?

That's pretty ridiculous to force your thoughts of how it should be on to others and say people need to get more in line with that mentality.

This applies to both sides of the argument.

Instead, Square Enix should be brainstorming ways to make the game's content as accessible as possible, including raiding, and not listen to an elitist, ivory tower vocal minority who want to define the raiding experience for the entire player base.

I don't see why the 'ivory tower vocal minority' can't have their difficult content along with everyone else getting the content they want. Why push the developers to take away from what's already there instead of pushing them to add on top of what they already have?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Is this inherently a problem? Or is it only a problem because there isn't enough challenging content out that does not require those things?

This applies to both sides of the argument.

I don't see why the 'ivory tower vocal minority' can't have their difficult content along with everyone else getting the content they want. Why push the developers to take away from what's already there instead of pushing them to add on top of what they already have?

Adding on top of their already meager patches might break them, if its even feasible at all. From outsider looking in, it might be best if they put more focus on making stuff relevant for more of their player base with their limited resources no?

Hopefully they figure out someway to make content relevant again. I love the idea kreal suggested awhile bacm, with extreme level dungeons. More quality 4 man stuff the better I think.

 

[iammeiam]

Instead, Square Enix should be brainstorming ways to make the game's content as accessible as possible, including raiding, and not listen to an elitist, ivory tower vocal minority who want to define the raiding experience for the entire player base.

They did make raiding as accessible as possible. It's called Normal Mode. It was wildly successful. It also doesn't scratch the itch the content we're trying to talk about here does, because the entire point of the final endgame raid is to be something that's not instantly accessible and beatable and tired and boring and pony farm-status-spammable within a month.

The problem we're facing as a player base as a whole, an endgame raiding community as the tiny minority of the player base it always has been and always will be, and individual players, is what to do about the tiny slice of content that is not immediately accessible to all.

Difficulty or the requirement of cooperation and scheduling will always be a barrier to entry. It was in Coil, and that hasn't changed now.What they tried in Gordias failed spectacularly, and they designed the following raid tier to address a lot of the larger complaints. It hasn't healed the damage of the previous tier, and the scarred player base is reacting badly to it. Their A6S nerfs out of the blue are problematic to me because of how, when, and what happened, and it's not something I want to see them repeat.

It is insanely aggravating that this always devolves to accusations of elitism and not wanting people to have fun, because that's not at all the point and it's more a brush-off than a discussion of what's actually happening. We all agree we need more content. When there are opposing viewpoints on what to do with the small amount of content we do get, it doesn't mean one side is elitist or wants the other to suffer, it means they want to protect the part of the game they enjoy. I'm sorry not having a group after your last one exploded sucks for you. I am. But I enjoy the collaborative environment of raiding and the accomplishment that comes with working together with other people to overcome an actual challenge, and I don't want to lose that by having the content kneecapped until it can be rolled over.

A lot of what you've said you want out of raid content is something where you can drop in, perform a predetermined set of steps within your realm of responsibility, and clear. You're less interested in the messy parts of interaction or changing things up in a non-standard way to accommodate specific group or player strengths and weaknesses or occasionally losing a day or a week because schedules clash or losing a few weeks because you have to sub somebody in and that takes time. I have no objections to content like that existing (and given enough time this is what raid turns into anyway), but I don't want to lose the content we do have now that encourages team play and knowing how the people you run with will excel or fall short, because that's fun to me. I'm not trying to crowd you out out of elitism, I just want to defend the tiny part of the game that's still fun for me.

 

[HylianScribe]

I don't see why the 'ivory tower vocal minority' can't have their difficult content along with everyone else getting the content they want. Why push the developers to take away from what's already there instead of pushing them to add on top of what they already have?

If they can't appease all, then appease the larger group. That was the point. I said I want them to make more content to satisfy all. Doesn't sound like they can feasibly do that any time soon.

They did make raiding as accessible as possible. It's called Normal Mode. It was wildly successful. It also doesn't scratch the itch the content we're trying to talk about here does, because the entire point of the final endgame raid is to be something that's not instantly accessible and beatable and tired and boring and pony farm-status-spammable within a month.

Raiding jumps from something virtually everyone can complete to something almost nobody completes. That's a problem.

The problem we're facing as a player base as a whole, an endgame raiding community as the tiny minority of the player base it always has been and always will be, and individual players, is what to do about the tiny slice of content that is not immediately accessible to all.

In that regards, in an isolated example, then I would argue altering the harder content in ways that angers/upsets people who don't like those alterations is also a problem. The larger picture is there is no third option/tier/other similar content to fill in the gap between the two vastly different types of content. So I argue then to benefit more people, alter the harder stuff.

Difficulty or the requirement of cooperation and scheduling will always be a barrier to entry. It was in Coil, and that hasn't changed now.What they tried in Gordias failed spectacularly, and they designed the following raid tier to address a lot of the larger complaints. It hasn't healed the damage of the previous tier, and the scarred player base is reacting badly to it. Their A6S nerfs out of the blue are problematic to me because of how, when, and what happened, and it's not something I want to see them repeat.

I agree with this. I will also say the nerf they did didn't go far enough if they were hoping to achieve something more substantial. Also your concerns over what they did and the precedent they set for those type of raiders is very valid.

It is insanely aggravating that this always devolves to accusations of elitism and not wanting people to have fun, because that's not at all the point and it's more a brush-off than a discussion of what's actually happening. We all agree we need more content. When there are opposing viewpoints on what to do with the small amount of content we do get, it doesn't mean one side is elitist or wants the other to suffer, it means they want to protect the part of the game they enjoy. I'm sorry not having a group after your last one exploded sucks for you. I am. But I enjoy the collaborative environment of raiding and the accomplishment that comes with working together with other people to overcome an actual challenge, and I don't want to lose that by having the content kneecapped until it can be rolled over.

It's more about being concerned over how much weight the developers give to the part of the community who have cleared all this stuff and have extraordinary conditions compared to most everyone else. But I'm also saying there should be a good, hard look in the mirror about the numbers behind who wants X, and who wants Y, and Square Enix need to figure out something. It does feel like the game is being tugged in two different directions at the moment. And I said, if they have the resources, and could make anything happen, then they should focus on improving the gap content and leave the higher end (EX/Savage) stuff alone. Savage Coil existed just fine, no group bitched about it being too hard. I just want them to try harder I guess for something I've invested so heavily in. My group problems are my own. I don't want to go backwards in progression just for the sake of having a group. I raid to clear stuff and better my play. It's an extremely niche and selfish reason, but XIV afforded me that with raid. I've continuously shown I want more out of raiding and moved on from my own group as a result. I was just bad at identifying what I really wanted. My gripe comes over people telling me I need to be more flexible. I TRIED to run with other groups in earlier stages of Midas. I was not happy. Why you (not just you Angary, but third person you) enjoy raiding is not the same reason I was, and I felt like I was being trivialized for my viewpoint. That's why I left (also I feel GAF is too dead for my liking and completely directionless at the moment and just a sort of awkward spot). I mean, what you're saying I liked too when I was also getting my satisfaction from the playing part. I liked discussion ways to optimize things, figuring out why things went wrong, etc. But after A3S gutted a lot of my raiding spirit, I was back enjoying it, and now I'm at an even worse place before. I'll keep searching because I believe there is a group out there for me, but I needed to make some changes to better my situation.

I have to go now but I'm not ignoring your last part, I just will get yelled out if I'm late to dinner for debating an MMO...

 

[Valor]

If they can't appease all, then appease the larger group. That was the point. I said I want them to make more content to satisfy all. Doesn't sound like they can feasibly do that any time soon.

And yet you're also championing in the next breath the idea to take raiding as we know it now and essentially neuter it because it's too restrictive and exclusive.

Raiding jumps from something virtually everyone can complete to something almost nobody completes. That's a problem.

It absolutely is not a problem. This is the way that raiding goes in MMOs since the dawn of raiding in MMOs. Jayhawk posted a graph showing the same damn trends in WoW that we're seeing in 14. The problem WAS that there was story locked behind that content and Final Fantasy, as a brand, is a story driven experience. That is why we have normal mode now. So that more people can see the story that they are writing with the raids.

The problem lies in that mentality you said. Maybe raiding isn't for everyone. Maybe there is content in the game that is not made for everyone. That. Is. Okay.

So I argue then to benefit more people, alter the harder stuff.

I hate this mentality. Partly because I'm one of the people who enjoys the challenge and the journey like Angary said. You're essentially saying fuck me and fuck what I enjoy because Joe Shmoe the sprout can't do it so you can't do it either. We know that Joe there has tons of low skill content he can run like Normal Mode and the 24 Man raids and dungeons and trials, but he wants the one piece of content that you derive entertainment from as well.

It does feel like the game is being tugged in two different directions at the moment.

Is it? Is it really? I don't feel that. I don't feel that way at all.

I don't want this game to become like Destiny. Destiny is a game where they put out a raid and you sit down to do it, and later that night the raid is over and you did it. Congrats. See you on reset day to do it again. That shit is Midas normal. Cleared in an afternoon. If that was the highest tier of content in this game I would have quit ages ago.

 

[Omni]

Tanked Seph ex for the first time earlier. Kinda got thrust into it because I joined the party to heal, but hey. Worked out in the end. Got another four clears.

Spoiler

Must be over 70 in total now. Jesus.

Also I have no idea why some tanks seem to struggle to hold hate on the adds during the wind phase. Two unleashes and no one was close to taking them from me. I was preparing for the worst since I've had my face ruined repeatedly by them while healing and it was just... "okay... that's it?".

 

[Squishy3]

Tanked Seph ex for the first time earlier. Kinda got thrust into it because I joined the party to heal, but hey. Worked out in the end. Got another four clears.

Spoiler

Must be over 70 in total now. Jesus.

Also I have no idea why some tanks seem to struggle to hold hate on the adds during the wind phase. Two unleashes and no one was close to taking them from me. I was preparing for the worst since I've had my face ruined repeatedly by them while healing and it was just... "okay... that's it?".

The only thing I've ever seen happen during that was the healers pulling them because of heals going out but that's about it.

 

[HylianScribe]

And yet you're also championing in the next breath the idea to take raiding as we know it now and essentially neuter it because it's too restrictive and exclusive.

Yea, if it ends up being a slight bump up from Normal mode instead of the giant spike, and the majority of the player base is satisfied, then yes I do support nerfs.

It absolutely is not a problem. This is the way that raiding goes in MMOs since the dawn of raiding in MMOs. Jayhawk posted a graph showing the same damn trends in WoW that we're seeing in 14. The problem WAS that there was story locked behind that content and Final Fantasy, as a brand, is a story driven experience. That is why we have normal mode now. So that more people can see the story that they are writing with the raids.

I say screw that then. WHY does an MMO HAVE to be like every MMO before it? For years people tried to emulate WoW, and they all failed spectacularly. Just because something is the way everyone else does it or what was popular did it does not meant you have to keep doing it that way. That is why I had such high hopes for Vanilla XIV - I thought it was going to NOT try to be another WoW but somehow be something else. But for the present and the discussion on raiding, WHY must it be the giant spike. Why not the incremental leaps. This is like, the norm in everything? You start off at a level you can handle (don't bite off more than you can chew), and then slowly work your way up the ladder. To me, this feels natural, and I don't see why they don't apply this to raid content. Again, Story/HM mode raid, EX mode raid, and then Savage mode raid. Incremental steps.

The problem lies in that mentality you said. Maybe raiding isn't for everyone. Maybe there is content in the game that is not made for everyone. That. Is. Okay.

That is fine then, but the problem of "what else is there to do" still remains. And in fact, some of these people may be able to make the jump eventually to the highest tier if there were a much better support and development system in place, which I have said could include a better training mode + incremental difficulty tiers. Again, I did not personally complain when Savage arrived in SCoB, it was not for me. But I had other stuff to do to keep me occupied and motivation for it (I keep forgetting to bring up motivation to even raid). With Coil, it was the story and knowing Bahamut was coming and I wanted to see that sucker. I know I said I skipped cutscenes, but I watched the coil stuff. The T12 CG thing was hype as hell. Sorry for the tangent, but better rewards for raiding other than raid caliber gear to make raiding easier would be nice I guess.

I hate this mentality. Partly because I'm one of the people who enjoys the challenge and the journey like Angary said. You're essentially saying fuck me and fuck what I enjoy because Joe Shmoe the sprout can't do it so you can't do it either. We know that Joe there has tons of low skill content he can run like Normal Mode and the 24 Man raids and dungeons and trials, but he wants the one piece of content that you derive entertainment from as well.

Then speak up more and voice your opinion to the devs that there should in general be more mid-tier content. And I hope you believe when I say I don't think the difficulty personally is that much of an issue, it's just I try to see how it affects others after talking with people and seeing other comments. Yea, nerfing the hard content more permanently might not do me personally any good, might even make me want to quit, but then again maybe it wouldn't. Maybe I might be tired of putting in effort and want an easier route because this is just a game and I can get my challenging stuff elsewhere. I mean, yes, I get you can't get "this" specific type of challenge - the group based content - in very many other places, and it's why I said I get it's a bit unfair to suggest penalizing people like you and Angary. But Gordias was a disaster, Midas isn't not better, and you have more and more people asking "can you make this easier" or saying there is a problem with the difficulty of raid, and the #s back it. I want the game to be fun again, and it's no fun seeing my friends leave the server, leave the game, and it finally snaring me up in it's crap where sometimes you are the odd person out and get to see just how little there is to this game when you don't have access to the content you want to do. I want to prevent something like this from happening again, so yea, personal current situation is driving a lot of this because as you feel you are a minority who has to speak up for their stance on the game, I feel just as strongly. Though I wish we could have it both ways (or all ways) so we can all be happy, so I dearly hope SE figures out a way to make all happy somehow. That is truly the best outcome.

Is it? Is it really? I don't feel that. I don't feel that way at all.

I don't want this game to become like Destiny. Destiny is a game where they put out a raid and you sit down to do it, and later that night the raid is over and you did it. Congrats. See you on reset day to do it again. That shit is Midas normal. Cleared in an afternoon. If that was the highest tier of content in this game I would have quit ages ago.[/QUOTE]

You have people saying the game is too hard and wanting something not as hard as Savage but more challenging than Normal mode (and been saying it for months now), and you have some people saying essentially either "git gud" or "not my problem, life is fine in XIV because things are good for me". Also the A6S nerf seemed to touch people off into camps of it was a good choice vs it was a bad choice. I guess I should have clarified I am only speaking about end game content. As far as the normal story progression and leveling, this game has gotten way better and is on the ball with that, I think cross-server PF and something similar to the Trusts in XI is about all they could do more to improve the basic experience.

I haven't played Destiny so I can't address that. I also don't want the only tier to be normal mode. But as I said, it seems like people mostly take the natural step of trying EX primals and it's super easy barrier to access (especially now that they unlocked new ones to DF right away). It's a step up from Normal Alex, but not as challenging as Savage (at least IMO, feel free to disagree). They genuinely feel like they are designed to be cleared faster than Savage, and as I said, designed in such a way that there are more PFs for them, and the community seems to accept them more in terms of jumping in and out as their leisure. But you still have to put in some time to learn it and clear, might take you several lockouts, yes, just like Savage/Coil does for a static, but the difference is it's not as demanding as Savage or Coil mechanically or DPS/Health wise usually. Also you no longer have to clear a previous EX primal to move to the next with the exception of Ramuh? Or did they finally remove that stupid requirement that you had to kill Levi and Moogle Mog? That flexibility I think helps. So I mean Galen, that's what I'm suggesting. Let's start with making a raid tier in between Normal and Savage that is tuned like the EX primal fights. Start there. I've also said I'd be open to no middle raid tier, but new EX primal fights every month. That's less likely to happen, though, than a mid-tier raid difficulty.

And again, on a personal level, I do wish they had some more >8 person "challenging" content. Savage dungeons or a new type of raid boss that you could do more easily (and by easy, I mean the access to it, not the challenge) than Savage. I know I'm saying a lot of different things here, so to make it as simple as I can this is what I really want and am arguing for:

- I want a raid tier between Normal/Savage tuned to the level of EX Primals
- I want >8 person raid content that's a step above Normal
- I would love more EX primals in general, even if they re-hash some mob designs to make it happen
- I want some better rewards from more challenging raids
- I want that cross-server functionality to come as soon as it can
- If none of this can happen, then I'd prefer to have Savage mode tuned a bit easier, still harder than Normal, but maybe closer to EX Primal level as a start and go from there

A lot of what you've said you want out of raid content is something where you can drop in, perform a predetermined set of steps within your realm of responsibility, and clear. You're less interested in the messy parts of interaction or changing things up in a non-standard way to accommodate specific group or player strengths and weaknesses or occasionally losing a day or a week because schedules clash or losing a few weeks because you have to sub somebody in and that takes time. I have no objections to content like that existing (and given enough time this is what raid turns into anyway), but I don't want to lose the content we do have now that encourages team play and knowing how the people you run with will excel or fall short, because that's fun to me. I'm not trying to crowd you out out of elitism, I just want to defend the tiny part of the game that's still fun for me.

That's actually not true. I know 4 different strategies for Vortexer now that I've seen, and I've had no issue learning those 4 ways. In fact, I believe in the past, I've said to my old group a lot that I wanted to run with other people to SEE other strategies and actually gain a full/better understanding of the fight to actually address the situation from an informed perspective. This then would allow me to slip into any group and follow their method pretty easily because I know what's fundamentally going on. This also makes me better equipped to jump into help groups and make suggestions or better explain mechanics when people are solely relying on a "most popular method". And yea, the LS I was in, we tried to devise what were called "pug" strats to try to make it as easy for people to just do the mechanics correctly to get people clears, because clears = confidence, and then maybe people will go in more, actually learn the fight a bit more as they farm it, and maybe come to that self realization that playing more and running more in general (aka practice) and running with different people could greatly benefit you and they take a step on becoming a better player and better for our community. That was part of the goal, but sadly other shit killed that off, a part of the raid scene that needs to be obliterated from existence or just all exported to Gilgamesh and lock them there with a key and call it a day. People who only give a shit about themselves and bragging about shit and through their actions they hurt a lot of people, but they just don't care.

Anyway, what I think I might not be making clear lately is that I wish the raid scene on NA servers was more like the so-called JP servers, where people form groups via PF to have whoever is available at that time and at that phase of a fight, and jump in for a lockout or two to try to make progression. There is no promise it will work out, but it's the lower barrier of entry concept I like - more flexibility with your life. I do have the time to put in and wipe and learn as you said, it's just the set schedule part is becoming a bit more challenging. So if a PF group didn't work out on Tuesday night for say, A7S progression, no obligation to continue with that. Next night, you find another group doing the same thing, try them out. It sounds like these PF groups do try to keep some of the same people around through the progression of that turn, but people come and go as they please, the only expectations are that you try hard, you are legitimately at the phase described int he PF, and you contribute to the discussion to figure out how to tackle what's causing issues. All without the need for the same 8 people 3-5 times a week on set times. It's basically like uh, free lance raiding. I get that some of you raid because you like the 7 people you are with and don't want constant change. That's fine! But another way exists, and I wish NA servers adopted it more. So since it's not happening, I guess my only option was to ask SE to see if they could do something to encourage that, or at least make it easier for that to exist. And right now, the trend of people moving to Gilgamesh or whatever server in the hopes of "easy clears" and "promised land" is hurting that possibility a lot. Because everyone is impatient and wants a quick clear so they can wave their eCred around.

I forgot to address this earlier in full, when I was talking about "you don't want to go back and do progression and actually wipe and learn" -- that's super f-ing unfair. You don't know how much time I put into A6S. It was raiding for like 3-4 hours almost EVERY SINGLE DAY with a shit ton of wipes for hours on end and lots and lots of discussion and home work and research to smooth out the issues. I was legit was raiding 20+ hours a week. And I was HAPPY! I don't want to get into arguments over how much time = you should clear something, but to me, the time put into that fight by all of us was, to me, a very serious and grueling effort by all. It does not mean we deserved a clear, but also don't suggest or imply that all I want is to cut corners and shit. You're dead wrong and that offends me the most of anything. I am just refusing to settle for less than where I feel I should be, and judging by numerous PFs on other servers AND redidt recruitment AND the OF, a lot of other raiders don't want to go to far back from where they are. And I tried two different groups who were roughly on Brawler progression, and it was just not working out for me - lack of motivation (plus by the time I joined both these groups as a trial member, my situation was getting the better of me so was a bit depressed overall).

Yes, it's my issue, but it's not unreasonable IMO because I busted my ass learning that damn fight. And now that I've cleared it and that is off my shoulders, I will gladly go back and help others because I won't be worried about getting that first clear to shake the demons. I am always open to helping others when I can, but I also need to fulfill my personal needs too, which is I favor a more aggressive raid mentality (I know this smacks in the face of a lot of what I said today, but I did say I actually do enjoy slightly harder content in this game). If I'm getting my needs met, I then want to pay it back to the community and hopefully let others benefit. I just feel so shitty right now sitting around doing nothing, falling further out of favor with this game, and seeing how only a short time ago I was in a better place and how fast it turned for the worst. I truly just want to end this crap and also find a way from preventing it from happening again to me or anyone else. Because it sucks balls.

 

[Isaccard]

Rin, Angary

Are you guys saying you want the raids to be hard just for the sake of being hard?
And if you (and everyone else not pleased with nerfs to raid content) were already clearing it before they nerfed it, who cares if it lets other people clear and have fun? I don't get it?

I mean, they're taking feedback from players right (?), so either everyone they're taking feedback from should be dismissed with "git gud" or are just casual pleb trash, but I cant imagine said plebs raiding anyway outside of Normal

So either you guys are masochists who just like it Dark Souls 2 hard or your idea of challenging content doesn't match what seemingly the majority of raiders think, hence nerfs?

 

[iammeiam]

Rin, Angary

Are you guys saying you want the raids to be hard just for the sake of being hard?

I don't bird farm. I don't find much fun in repeatedly doing something easy for shiny prizes. The whole point of a tier of content above normal mode is, in theory, a challenge. The game challenges me to get better, I get to spend time thinking about what I'm doing. I don't find loot piñata mode fun. This is what raiding in this game has always been. Yes it shuts out people without groups. Yes, it shuts out people that don't want to try. Yes, it sucks that there's not more content for everyone.

If things are made easier, I want more thought in it than blanket nerfs to hit an imaginary goal. I spent most of Gordias saying people claiming it was just the DPS checks were wrong, and the mechanics were a challenge. People insisted, no, it's the DPS reqs. They deliver a fight with lighter DPS checks but just as many mechanics, it's still a problem. I think what people actually want needs to be a better dialogue than just nerfing blindly.

And if you (and everyone else not pleased with nerfs to raid content) were already clearing it before they nerfed it, who cares if it lets other people clear and have fun? I don't get it?

Because people who wanted to clear at original difficulty lost out? They stealth nerfed. They didn't nerf to address pain points, they blanket nerfed a fight out of the blue. That A6S was nerfed is one thing, but how it was done and the way they chose to do it was bad business.

I mean, they're taking feedback from players right (?), so either everyone they're taking feedback from should be dismissed with "git gud" or are just casual pleb trash, but I cant imagine said plebs raiding anyway outside of Normal

I have never written people off as pleb trash. Many of the people pro-nerf folks in Alexander were the 'git gud, you don't need raid gear if you're not a hardcore raider!' people in coil. I resent being thrown on that side solely because I want more thought than blind nerfs. It is aggravating to have anything other than "make it easier for me to get loot" viewed as elitist. I want the game to encourage people to get better, not just lower the bar. It fails at it, and the nerfs continue it that way.

So either you guys are masochists who just like it Dark Souls 2 hard or your idea of challenging content doesn't match what seemingly the majority of raiders think, hence nerfs?

"the majority of raiders" don't have a consensus. It's divided. It needs a bigger discussion than SURPRISE! NERFS!

 

[crackbabyjr]

Hi Bookey.

 

[Redx508]

Richter: Die monster. You don&#8217;t belong in this world!

Dracula: It was not by my hand I was once again given flesh. I was brought here by
humans who wished to be me tribute!

Richter: Tribute!? You steal men&#8217;s souls, and make them your slaves!

Dracula: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions&#8230;

Richter: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

Dracula: What is a man?(Throws the glass) A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk&#8230; Have at you!

 

[Squishy3]

Dracula confirmed

 

[Valor]

I say screw that then.

I'm just saying that this isn't like FF14 is the first game to have this issue. It won't be the last. This is the natural way that content shakes out versus people who play the game. This is simply how consumers work in general and how populations shake out for games. Single player. Multiplayer. It always works out like this.

Look at any other multiplayer game. Look at unranked playlists versus ranked playlists. Unranked will have a healthy population. Ranked usually is much smaller in comparison. It's a natural population gradient, as far as I'm concerned. Has nothing to do with WoW clone or not. It's about population and statistics, and they fall in line with what is expected. I am still advocating for a three tier raid system, but I also acknowledge that those lower two tiers, if such a system existed, would not be content for me. I am okay with that.

And in fact, some of these people may be able to make the jump eventually to the highest tier if there were a much better support and development system in place, which I have said could include a better training mode + incremental difficulty tiers.

I dunno, man. I was one of those scrubs in Coil 1 who was asked to help out a group fill in as a sub. I never raided before. Ever. Coil 1 was hard for me. It took time and it took effort but I put those things in and now I'm one of these ivory tower whatevers that are being railed against. The community is my support and development system. There is incremental difficulty. Many people still have trouble with seph ex. I personally used the SSS dummies four to five times a week to practice rotations and get better. Why do you make it seem like people who are raiding Savage now have always raided and didn't jump in? We literally hired a ninja a few weeks ago who has never raided in 14 before and he's doing great.

I want the game to be fun again, and it's no fun seeing my friends leave the server, leave the game, and it finally snaring me up in it's crap where sometimes you are the odd person out and get to see just how little there is to this game when you don't have access to the content you want to do.

This is the crux of your issue, and the rest of this is just window dressing. Yes, it must be frustrating to not have a group and be the odd man out. I remember feeling that way when I stopped subbing for Bara's group back in Coil 1 after a couple of days. I enjoyed it and wanted to do more. Luckily I haven't been unemployed since then. I would also probably stop playing if I was unable to raid for one reason or another. I wouldn't, however, start blaming the game for not providing me the social tools needed to play the social aspect of the game, because it exists already.

You have people saying the game is too hard and wanting something not as hard as Savage but more challenging than Normal mode (and been saying it for months now), and you have some people saying essentially either "git gud" or "not my problem, life is fine in XIV because things are good for me".

Doesn't matter what us scrubs say, only matters what the team does about it. That's well out of our hands. We can request things but they are not obligated to acquiesce to our whims. Vocal minority is not always right. I don't really see anyone honestly shooting down the ability for more people to experience difficult content at an easier way to get in. I'm super okay with it. Add a third raid tier. Give us that option. I know the team wants to, but it's about budget. No amount of my whining or crying on the OF or Reddit will increase the budget or magically force a third raid tier to be a thing. I hope it does happen, but I also don't see the system as being broken and needing a fix.

I also honestly believe raid finder, if implemented correctly, will make a lot of people very happy. I think it's a great step in the right direction to help build the community instead of splinter it.

So I mean Galen, that's what I'm suggesting. Let's start with making a raid tier in between Normal and Savage that is tuned like the EX primal fights.

That sounds great. I would love to see that happen. Let's hope they're able to make this become a reality if not in 3.x then in 4.0. I also would like to see more content that isn't on lockout at launch. That's part of why the Diadem was so enjoyable at first. Gacha rolls on loot while being able to run it as much as you want is fun. Deep Dungeon will hopefully also be really enjoyable. I do love the 8 man system and would like to see more content built like EX Primals in terms of accessibility. That would be great. I'm all for adding more stuff and not taking away or limiting the content we already have.


Red. Stop stealing my bold stuff. You're such a copycat ugh.

 

[Izayoi]

From the perspective of someone who hit 60 two weeks ago, I think that the difficulty progression in the game is just fine.

There's a bit of a slow spot at the beginning (the initial Eso grind), but it's been very smooth since. I've just started Alexander Savage and I am interested in giving SepEX a go.

I'm still not where I would like to be in terms of rotation - I can execute it alright on a dummy, but in an actual raid scenario it's a bit tougher to keep my DPS where I want it to be.

Still, you won't hear me complaining about the inaccessibility of the existing content. Everything except for A5S+ and SepEX can be done through the DF, right? Between that and the Party Finder, I have had no trouble finding groups for content, old or new.

Maybe my perspective will change when I'm in the market for a static, but I don't see any issues with how the system is currently...

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

Holy fucking christ the drama tonight on Lamia Seph EX parties. I wish I could change server for free. People were crying like babies and it wasn't normal. We wiped at 3 percent because someone said focusing seph was better than wind. I've seen it all tonight. A bunch of man childs and man it gets worse every other week. This server sucks arse at the game. I'm not even kidding. Jesus Christ.... everyone wants a damn carry. It is ridiculous!

 

[scy]

For years people tried to emulate WoW, and they all failed spectacularly. Just because something is the way everyone else does it or what was popular did it does not meant you have to keep doing it that way. ... But for the present and the discussion on raiding, WHY must it be the giant spike. Why not the incremental leaps. This is like, the norm in everything? You start off at a level you can handle (don't bite off more than you can chew), and then slowly work your way up the ladder. To me, this feels natural, and I don't see why they don't apply this to raid content. Again, Story/HM mode raid, EX mode raid, and then Savage mode raid. Incremental steps.

I feel like the great irony of this is that you're asking for them to literally follow the WoW model more and more and not less. And a large part of the complaints I remember over time is that people did complain about the difficulty going down but that's a thing.

That said, this incremental leap thing is precisely what most people do in fact want? I don't really think there's any disagreement on that. So I mean ... nobody is disagreeing on there needing to be more middle ground content (except, arguably, SE sine they keep making sure new things aren't that). I realize this is a great cop-out of a lengthy post but I think most of the notes in there go well with this anyway. Most of what you say in general is true. The game needs more things to do, period. It needs more midcore content to bridge the gaps in the game.

Rin, Angary

Are you guys saying you want the raids to be hard just for the sake of being hard?
And if you (and everyone else not pleased with nerfs to raid content) were already clearing it before they nerfed it, who cares if it lets other people clear and have fun? I don't get it?

Personally, I want Savage mode raids to be challenging. The kind of content that asks me to try to do something and overcome it. I'm not really big on content that doesn't ask me to try. So in many ways, yes to "hard for the sake of being hard" but without what seems to be a negative feeling attached to it? If I just want to see the story and encounters and all that, there IS a normal version. Savage is about beating something difficult, that to me is the entire point of them existing. To be a challenge. If there exists non-Savage raids, I'd expect them to be appropriate level of challenge for what gap they intend to fit. Like, I'm mostly fine with the way Normal mode works, maybe some mechanics should exist so people get a better idea of Savage but whatever.

As for the people having fun ... what? This is nothing at all about wanting to deny people their fun. More people doing the fight is a good thing to me, I do really want more people to be raiding because I think more people CAN do it. Put another way though, is their fun simply beating the fight and only beating the fight? That's where this "let them have their fun!" bit loses me some. I enjoy doing the fights and the wipes and brainstorming how to beat it. That's enjoyable to me. Making the fight easier so I can clear it doesn't make it any more fun to me.

Most of my qualms with the difficulty is that I do feel it's overstated. A lot of the issue I take is because people blame the game for problems rather than themselves and I'm typically loathe about shifting the blame like that. There's a legitimate difference between things being "hard" and "unfair" and "broken" and for many of the complaints, that gets completely removed. Other people do the exact same fight with the exact same gear and it works out for them somehow. It's not luck or some other magical thing and there's a lot to be done to see what you're doing differently. So I just take issue with people getting stuck and going "this is impossible, someone needs to change this so I can do it too."

Additionally, things that are difficult aren't a problem in and of themselves as long as they're working within intent. It's a large part of why my thoughts about how they should have nerfed A6S were about easing the requirements to doing the fight as intended (shifting timers on mines, for instance, or giving better in-game indicators on Water + Thunder markers and AoE indicators) rather than altering the fight the way they did. They could have done interesting things to ease the execution of the fight but leaving most of it intact. Instead they just ... let you eventually get to ignore it better? There's a joke here about the soul of the fight (#Hearthstone) but something like that.

I mean, they're taking feedback from players right (?), so either everyone they're taking feedback from should be dismissed with "git gud" or are just casual pleb trash, but I cant imagine said plebs raiding anyway outside of Normal

Honestly? I don't know if they take feedback directly from players. Based on how they keep wording it, it seems more like with their own internal expectations first and foremost. Maybe they take some from forum posts but this is where it gets into weird territory of how seriously do you take every single forum post feedback.

Also, I mean ... I know the running joke around here is my rampant elitism but I don't really have anything against casual players? And my idea of "trash" players are those who offload responsibilities to others, settle for mediocrity, shift the blame, etc. The kind of players that most people would consider the toxic players from, say, League or DotA or whatever (I don't know fighting game references, sorry) that flame and give up. I do believe a lot in "git gud" instead of hoping for someone to carry or things to be brought down to "your level" but that's because I believe in a lot of actively trying to improve yourself over all else.

So either you guys are masochists who just like it Dark Souls 2 hard or your idea of challenging content doesn't match what seemingly the majority of raiders think, hence nerfs?

I'm not sure if either of those are necessarily true? A lot of people on this topic seem to voice the same things as I've said. At the same time, I wouldn't say it's representative of it at all since small sample size. But you can also go to other game's and see the same of people pointing out that the challenging content isn't really all that hard and it's a disappointment. So it's a mixed bag there.

Though, I will admit I do enjoy challenges. That's fun to me. I don't particularly mind things being "easier" as a whole if they're still fun; I'm not extremely upset about the potential next tier being easier than this tier for instance. My stance is mostly if people yell loud enough, the fights will be changed while they're relevant which sort of begs the question of when and where does the line get drawn. And then the issue of will the changes be kind of rough ones instead of like ... actually keeping the fight intact or what.

 

[BadRNG]

Fucking war and peace up in here

My problem with you Korra is that while admitting this issue is a personal one, you turn it around and attempt to blame everyone from the developers, to the community at large, to just the people you're talking to. You think it's unfair that we call you out on the fact you didn't want to essentially lower yourself to what you deemed a lesser group, a group not worth of your time? It's also pretty freaking unfair to call us all ivory tower elitists for it - or simply disagree with you on what the game could be. I know you aren't naming names but let's be real here, we both know who you are talking about when you say crap like that, and I'm not a fan. That night you left FC we weren't trying to attack you, we were trying to get you to see your own hypocrisy so maybe you could see the situation for what it was; a situation of your own making that you were lashing out at people for. I get not wanting to go backwards progression wsie , or even seeing the appeal of static-style content, but all those wall of texts you've been posting have the clear message that you think you are better or deserve more than most. That's literally all that was being said. We weren't trying to "make you" raid a certain way.

Which you know what, is whatever, you aren't the only guy out there with that mindset but don't try and turn it around and act like you are some champion of the people trying to save everyone from a bad experience. This whole thing is about you and your inability to find a group up to your high standards. You crapped on groups less progressed as you, you crap on entire servers (WHILE ACTIVELY APPLYING FOR GROUPS THERE), you crap on everyone and anyone who disagrees. It's just tiresome man, get off that highhorse. You say you want to help people and the community but I haven't seen a lick of that, all I see is a guy wondering why he's having such a rough go of it while actively admitting it's his own fault he's having a rough go of it. That admittance doesn't mean anything if you don't change from there! I feel sorry for you that your group blew up, I feel sorry for you that you've had issue with finding a new one, but then you go and attack people and from what I hear you were not exactly super nice to some of the groups you subbed with.

The thing you are asking for already exists doesn't it? The PF scene you talk about does exist. It utterly sucks that it's on a different server, or that there are apparently jerks there, but that stuff exists for you. It existed on Ultros at one point but that stuff can't exist without a very active community that wants it to. Raids getting harder didn't destroy that community, the fact that FFXIV is just not the super active game it was on every server at launch killed that. You used to be able to PF coil, getting your weekly clears just like you describe, but as the available pool shrinks that's just not possible anymore. Making content easier won't suddenly fix that either, the server is just not going to recover to that time. Personally I think we are long due for some server mergers but no company wants to do that as it basically sends a message the game is dying (even if it's not really, just smaller than it was from inital rush)

This game does need mid tier content. It also needs better systems in place to improve, as well as incentives to do so, we can all agree on that I hope. Hell I'm also ok with nerfing what content is there; just as long as there is some notice. I don't like sudden nerfs out of the blue. Ari asked why some care since we cleared it - it should be noted we had only just cleared recently. We could've easily missed that boat. I didn't want to miss that boat. It's not about ecred either, I couldn't give two shits about whether or not people think I am any good in this game. I just enjoy the challenge, and clearing it with friends. That's basically it. You might think that is just lipspeak but go and find me anytime I've attempted to brag about content clear. I'm not the guy who gets a new shiny and stands in mist afk with it out (it's also pretty funny to me that two of the people calling everyone elitists are known for doing just that!). I don't pour over FFlogs to flex my dps muscles. I don't care. So could we please drop this elitist bullshit argument, it's incredibly dismissive and is basically just stopping any discussion before it can really begin.

Maybe I am out of line on some of this, but it's really bugging me how you are trying to present this. I'm not trying to attack you here but when you attack everyone else instead it's hard to see your side of things completely. Propping up people who disagree as these evil elitists who want to kill your fun is just so incredibly offbase.

 

[Frumix]

Personally the issue that's the biggest deal for me is the effort-reward ratio.
See, even going back to Coil again, the weekly loot raid should be midcore.
Final Coil difficulty is fine.
Then, for those who want challenge, there should be a Savage version.
Maybe even have it come out in the middle of the tier, like SCOB(S).
Just the challenge, you take your time to do it once and you get your title or mount.
That format would have been perfect.
Normal mode doesn't really factor into this and in fact it ruined everything.
You used to be able to use the loot from previous tier to challenge the new tier early.
Now it's pointless since crafted/normal gear instantly makes that outdated.
So the only real prize from the spilled tears in A4S is the gobwalker.
In this respect, the gear loot you get from Savage just doesn't measure up with the effort you have to put in.

So there's two takeaways from this.
If the dev team can't support better tiering, higher difficulties will go, but it's the loot pinata normal version that NEEDS to go.
But then, if you really want to clear, if you're really having fun with any kinda difficulty, you'll find your place to do it if you put in the effort.

 

[Jayhawk]

This game could use some server merges. The scenes on some servers seem underwhelming. Server merges in FFXI gave the end-game extra life years ago. They should already have a lot of the processes in place for merging this game's data since they merged servers multiple times in 1.0. My current character is a casualty of a server merge. RIP Trabia server at 1.0 release getting merged into what Hyperion became at 2.0.