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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch

Time to see if that "once in a lifetime exchange for buying the wrong tome item courtesy of the GMs" is a myth or a reality. Didn't realize the PLD Lore shield was not from Rowena's Tokens...but straight lore. So bought 3 too many, yay. Not the end of the world honestly, but curious if it works.
 

Valor

Member
Time to see if that "once in a lifetime exchange for buying the wrong tome item courtesy of the GMs" is a myth or a reality. Didn't realize the PLD Lore shield was not from Rowena's Tokens...but straight lore. So bought 3 too many, yay. Not the end of the world honestly, but curious if it works.
Reasons not to be a Paladin
Fuck Blaster, fuck Mirages, fuck Brawler, fuck orbs, fuck Yoship, fuck everything.


Fuck.



;_;
Man and you didn't even get Swindled yet? Let alone Vortexed? {I'm sorry.}
 

Tiops

Member
Reasons not to be a Paladin

Man and you didn't even get Swindled yet? Let alone Vortexed? {I'm sorry.}

{We're chewing the fat}


Vortexer nerfs makes me a little hopeful at least. I tried Swindler a few times yesterday with another group and it doesn't look THAT bad, but it'll take some time to people not fuck up.
 

Jayhawk

Member
{We're chewing the fat}


Vortexer nerfs makes me a little hopeful at least. I tried Swindler a few times yesterday with another group and it doesn't look THAT bad, but it'll take some time to people not fuck up.

Maybe your group would be better off using this mirage bait method. Keeps the melee DPS'ing and dodging is easy for the whole group if you can just follow the MT who can take his time looking at the paths of all mirages! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U_SI_mJ-ZDNp53MLNomn8UV1hg_YGaSyUYsoU5YTK5k/edit
 

Tiops

Member
Maybe your group would be better off using this mirage bait method. Keeps the melee DPS'ing and dodging is easy for the whole group if you can just follow the MT who can take his time looking at the paths of all mirages! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U_SI_mJ-ZDNp53MLNomn8UV1hg_YGaSyUYsoU5YTK5k/edit

We're getting better at the mirages, and most of the time it's baited correctly. But sometimes the mines spawn in shitty positions and everyone gets desperate, stacking 2 mirages and killing 2 or 3 members. Which leads me to the following question:

At the start, do you guys tank the Blaster at the center or at north? Our stubborn MT likes to tank it at north, and when RNG gives us a nice surprise and puts all the fucking mines at north, things go bad.

Our current issue is with Brawler. I think the DPS is not enough and some of the alphas are reaching the center, and the first beta exploding with the Double Cannon is killing us. I joined a random party yesterday and they were used to only stacking the tanks for double cannons, and it actually worked, so we'll probably try that in our next raid day.
 

Jayhawk

Member
We're getting better at the mirages, and most of the time it's baited correctly. But sometimes the mines spawn in shitty positions and everyone gets desperate, stacking 2 mirages and killing 2 or 3 members. Which leads me to the following question:

At the start, do you guys tank the Blaster at the center or at north? Our stubborn MT likes to tank it at north, and when RNG gives us a nice surprise and puts all the fucking mines at north, things go bad.

Our current issue is with Brawler. I think the DPS is not enough and some of the alphas are reaching the center, and the first beta exploding with the Double Cannon is killing us. I joined a random party yesterday and they were used to only stacking the tanks for double cannons, and it actually worked, so we'll probably try that in our next raid day.

Tanking Blaster where it is means max dps openers since no movement, and provides more options to deal with mines. Moving it to north is unnecessary and limits mobility for avoiding mines. DUMB.

If your group can get Brawler down with only two chakrams, it is a good indicator that your dps is good enough. Our group only stacks for the double blaster/cannon during add phase if it's not happening during betas and everything else is already dead. If it happens when the betas are still up, then only tanks take the damage.
 

iammeiam

Member
At the start, do you guys tank the Blaster at the center or at north? Our stubborn MT likes to tank it at north, and when RNG gives us a nice surprise and puts all the fucking mines at north, things go bad.

Tank mid; with the nerf to mines dodging from mid is super easy because there's only ever one on the outside. Default north dodge when they drop, if the edge mine is north go northwest or northeast. No real reason to ever go south at this point. Ez life. Likewise have him drop post-adds into mid and dodging the next mine set is easy. Leave him on the edge after the second mine set because he should be dying before third dashes/before anyone has to actually explode the third invisible mine and you gain more from the increased uptime. If the edge mine spawns on your head, just move a few paces outside the blast radius and kill him.

Our current issue is with Brawler. I think the DPS is not enough and some of the alphas are reaching the center, and the first beta exploding with the Double Cannon is killing us. I joined a random party yesterday and they were used to only stacking the tanks for double cannons, and it actually worked, so we'll probably try that in our next raid day.

Tanks for double laser is what we did during adds regardless; if you're stunning and slowing the betas appropriately (leave one alone, stun/slow the other) there's heal time between the first beta blast and whichever laser. If you accidentally delay the first one to blow up, it gets ugly though, so making sure everyone's clear on which one gets in unimpeded is pretty important.

The alpha DPS check is less bad than it seems at first (nobody should be burning big CDs here, and anything with a 60 second CD needs to be used by early second wave so it's up in time for Swindler pull), provided your DPS is splitting damage appropriately. Healing during adds phase is pretty low aside from the beta/laser/beta phase, so if you have a SCH they should have free time to slow some alphas. SMN can miasma all the things. MCH slow is nice for anything that needs a last minute delay, if you have a MCH. Your melee can also blow stuns on them, but really much like A3S it's just about everyone splitting up damage and making sure everything is covered, not everyone converging on the same alpha so one gets almost in untouched. The alphas seem like a DPS check at first, but once you get acclimated to the spawn timing and pattern your caster types will end up having a hard time getting many casts out before they've melted.
 

ebil

Member
This reminds me that I completely forgot to slow down any Alphas when we helped this WHM get her A6 clear yesterday, but then again I was dicking around on Nocturnal Astrologian to see how viable/terrible the idea was.

We switched to the tanks sharing the Double Buster very early on. It removed a mechanic to worry about for our DPS and we pretty much never had any problems with Alphas after doing that.
 

Valor

Member
At the start, do you guys tank the Blaster at the center or at north? Our stubborn MT likes to tank it at north, and when RNG gives us a nice surprise and puts all the fucking mines at north, things go bad.

Our current issue is with Brawler. I think the DPS is not enough and some of the alphas are reaching the center, and the first beta exploding with the Double Cannon is killing us. I joined a random party yesterday and they were used to only stacking the tanks for double cannons, and it actually worked, so we'll probably try that in our next raid day.

Chiming in as well even though most of what I say will be rehash.

Tank Blaster mid. Easier. Mines become a non-mechanic. You just pull to a safe spot and life goes on.

Ball phase on Brawler is not really a dps check. It's very similar to A3S' adds. It's more of a coordination check. If you keep the north area where the tanks will stack for beams, it makes everything much more simple. Slows and stuns on the alphas are pretty handy here, especially when the three alphas spawn. Usually if one spawns in the tank area I'll throw my MCH heavy on it so melees don't get desperate to dive in there and kill it before beams go off.

So many dead dragoons have tried that. But yeah. Coordination is key. Heavy and stuns buy you whatever time you may need to finish off the alphas, and if the betas are staggered you're good to go.
 
{We're chewing the fat}


Vortexer nerfs makes me a little hopeful at least. I tried Swindler a few times yesterday with another group and it doesn't look THAT bad, but it'll take some time to people not fuck up.

Swindler is the one I don't even worry about anymore. Just remind people before it oops to look at what platform they are already on.

When ever you do get to vortexer, scream this at your group.

GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM WATER, GO WIDE

And

DONT MOVE UNTIL YOU SEE THE ICE ON THE GROUND

And

DAMMIT VOLGY

Wait, that last one isn't for you
 

dcye

Member
Time to see if that "once in a lifetime exchange for buying the wrong tome item courtesy of the GMs" is a myth or a reality. Didn't realize the PLD Lore shield was not from Rowena's Tokens...but straight lore. So bought 3 too many, yay. Not the end of the world honestly, but curious if it works.

This definitely does work. I've done it and have multiple friends who have done it as well.
 

Qvoth

Member
will stick to my trusty paissa brat
edit: isn't huzzah the one where you punch your arm towards the sky? like the lb3 group pose? isn't that old?
 

Ken

Member
will stick to my trusty paissa brat
edit: isn't huzzah the one where you punch your arm towards the sky? like the lb3 group pose? isn't that old?

it was from a seasonal event so you can't get it in-game anymore

anniversary something something
 

Tiops

Member
Tanking Blaster where it is means max dps openers since no movement, and provides more options to deal with mines. Moving it to north is unnecessary and limits mobility for avoiding mines. DUMB.

If your group can get Brawler down with only two chakrams, it is a good indicator that your dps is good enough. Our group only stacks for the double blaster/cannon during add phase if it's not happening during betas and everything else is already dead. If it happens when the betas are still up, then only tanks take the damage.

Tank mid; with the nerf to mines dodging from mid is super easy because there's only ever one on the outside. Default north dodge when they drop, if the edge mine is north go northwest or northeast. No real reason to ever go south at this point. Ez life. Likewise have him drop post-adds into mid and dodging the next mine set is easy. Leave him on the edge after the second mine set because he should be dying before third dashes/before anyone has to actually explode the third invisible mine and you gain more from the increased uptime. If the edge mine spawns on your head, just move a few paces outside the blast radius and kill him.

Tanks for double laser is what we did during adds regardless; if you're stunning and slowing the betas appropriately (leave one alone, stun/slow the other) there's heal time between the first beta blast and whichever laser. If you accidentally delay the first one to blow up, it gets ugly though, so making sure everyone's clear on which one gets in unimpeded is pretty important.

The alpha DPS check is less bad than it seems at first (nobody should be burning big CDs here, and anything with a 60 second CD needs to be used by early second wave so it's up in time for Swindler pull), provided your DPS is splitting damage appropriately. Healing during adds phase is pretty low aside from the beta/laser/beta phase, so if you have a SCH they should have free time to slow some alphas. SMN can miasma all the things. MCH slow is nice for anything that needs a last minute delay, if you have a MCH. Your melee can also blow stuns on them, but really much like A3S it's just about everyone splitting up damage and making sure everything is covered, not everyone converging on the same alpha so one gets almost in untouched. The alphas seem like a DPS check at first, but once you get acclimated to the spawn timing and pattern your caster types will end up having a hard time getting many casts out before they've melted.

Chiming in as well even though most of what I say will be rehash.

Tank Blaster mid. Easier. Mines become a non-mechanic. You just pull to a safe spot and life goes on.

Ball phase on Brawler is not really a dps check. It's very similar to A3S' adds. It's more of a coordination check. If you keep the north area where the tanks will stack for beams, it makes everything much more simple. Slows and stuns on the alphas are pretty handy here, especially when the three alphas spawn. Usually if one spawns in the tank area I'll throw my MCH heavy on it so melees don't get desperate to dive in there and kill it before beams go off.

So many dead dragoons have tried that. But yeah. Coordination is key. Heavy and stuns buy you whatever time you may need to finish off the alphas, and if the betas are staggered you're good to go.

Thank you for the tips guys, really helpfull. I hope we can see Vortexer this weekend.
 

Tomat

Wanna hear a good joke? Waste your time helping me! LOL!
How much money would everyone here pay to be able to wear the racial sets (what you start the game with) on other races?
 

ebil

Member
- Tank main FC member complains that he dislikes WAR because it's so slow and loves DRK because of all these cool extra buttons there are to push
- Proceeds to pull 285 DPS off-tanking Thordan Extreme with 15% echo

... How about sticking to slow WAR after all?
 

MogCakes

Member
I feel like I'm touching hot coal for asking this, but what's the damage difference between the DPS melee jobs in current endgame? That's including raid DPS brought on by BL, piercing resist debuff, TA, enmity skills.

My current synopsis of them is:
tumblr_nkuv1i0rPy1spi738o2_500.gif
NIN: TA is extra damage dealt by everyone (10%) for a short time, enmity skills allow MT to tank in DPS stance, goad helps out people who can't manage TP and covers some of the support BRD or MCH would otherwise have to do. Able to debuff slash resistance, shared with WAR. Raw DPS is lowest among the melee classes, offset by the amount of raid DPS they bring. AoE is the weakest of the melee and most expensive (requiring Mudra expenditure to use their decent AoE abilities). Action arsenal is the most varied of the three and NINs have the most combat mobility and freedom of the melee, with the least amount of positional attacks. Skills are easy to execute with little setup required, balanced by CD/skill punishment from messing up a mudra.

DRG: Piercing debuff adds permanent extra damage from BRD/MCH, BL is a boon to everyone's crit for 15 seconds resulting in some crazy +damage depending on RNG. Raw DPS is middle of the three melee. AoE is middle of the three melee and can't be maintained for long, having a large TP drain. Action arsenal is mostly offense and mobility oriented, the mobility part usually more useful for gap closing or evasion than rotation execution. Positionals guarantee an optimal conal engagement angle during an encounter that the DRG will not want to stray from. Skills line up for massive spike damage and the rotation is set in stone aside from the 50/50 WT/FC RNG, balanced by the CD punishment of BotD if care isn't taken to maintain it or is popped at the wrong moment.

MNK: Mantra is a boon to healers once every 2 minutes, helps during damage checks or clutch moments. DK debuffs enemy INT, reducing magic damage, shared with DRK's Delirium. The blunt resist debuff potentially aids Ifrit-egi's DPS. Raw DPS is the highest of the melee to offset its near non-existent raid DPS boost. AoE is the highest of the melee and the longest sustained, with TP expenses being more forgiving. Action arsenal is the most offensively varied with two powerful AoE oGCDs that have no requirements to execute but has the least mobility, only having a gap closer unlike DRG and NIN. MNKs playstyle is centered around positionals and combos, and the MNK will want to stay at the sweet spot cone between flank and rear at all times in a very narrow band of the engagement ring, like DRG. Skills require setup to execute rotation properly and momentum needs to be maintained to keep up GL3, has the longest rev-time for getting to full momentum. Punishment is the loss of GL3 and the required setup time to return to it.

In summary:
NIN - lowest raw damage potential with high raid DPS and QoL combat utility, easy to execute skills with requirement of mudra memorization.
DRG - middle raw damage potential with arguably the highest raid DPS and no QoL combat utility, set in stone rotation with requirement of maintaining BotD and knowing when to pop Gierskogul.
MNK - highest raw damage potential with virtually no raid DPS and some defensive QoL combat utility, flexible skill flow with the longest setup and most execution requirements.

Damage ranking:
1. DRG - high DPS and brings the most raid DPS, resulting in the highest overall contributed damage to a raid.
2. NIN - while it has the lowest raw DPS of the melee, it's still high and the total raid DPS contribution of TA and its enmity skills/TP utility give it a large contributed damage to a raid.
3. MNK - almost all of its contributed damage is directly from its raw damage potential. It has the highest raw DPS of the melee, but is arguably lowest on the rankings when it comes to overall contributed damage.

Then there's AST and party comp to consider. AST favoritism could theoretically make any of the three melee top DD in their raid group. WARs will theoretically always be using their slashing debuff so that NIN can run a more optimal DPS execution. DRGs are usually guaranteed to have a BRD or MCH in their group. In contrast, a SMN specifically using Ifrit needs to be present for MNK's blunt resist debuff to extend to anyone other than themselves, and a DRK makes their -int debuff redundant. On the other hand, not having any CDs that aid raid DPS also frees them to go full HAM at all times, letting them maximize their personal DPS instead of saving for key moments during the fight to pop BL or TA after an invulnerability phase. NINs go best with WARs, DRGs with BRD/MCH, and MNKs go best with PLDs to complement PLD's -str debuff.

So we have a high raid DPS/high utility job, high raid DPS/high damage job, and a high damage/defensive utility job. What I'm trying to figure out is just how big the damage differences actually are in the current meta/endgame. My ranking could be wrong, too - NIN's raid DPS is very high, I just believe BL adds more damage than TA (even with it being RNG based) in addition to DRG's perma pierce boost for BRD/MCH. What's the lead MNK has on the other two in terms of raw DPS? If the final differences come down to a range within ~100 DPS between all three melee's damage contributions considering all party configurations, assuming three players at expert level skill and mastery of all endgame fights with the exact same RNG fortune, are they unbalanced? What about ~200? At what range then does it necessarily matter that a raid group takes a MNK or a NIN or a DRG?

There's also consistency of performance, but I feel the balancing checks level out the difficulty of execution between the three. However, I think the endgame fights lend themselves better to DRG and NIN - MNK's chakra and form change skills seem more like stopgap attempts to cover their weakness to mid-fight downtime. Is my evaluation here accurate?
 
MNK is overall considered better in this tier than NIN if you have a MCH. A hypercharged MNK will just fuck shit up and do more damage than any job in the game.
 
The blunt resist debuff potentially aids Ifrit-egi's DPS.

In contrast, a SMN specifically using Ifrit needs to be present for MNK's blunt resist debuff to extend to anyone other than themselves, and a DRK makes their -int debuff redundant.

All the egis were changed to magic damage only with Heavenward's release if I recall correctly, so I expect that Dragon Kick does nothing for Ifrit-egi now.
 

iammeiam

Member
This tier is sort of interesting in that group comp is much more of a give and take. Max DPS meta matters much less now given the comparatively lenient checks across-the-board in Midas, and PLD's resurgence means a group may actually want a Monk for DK.

Disembowel is worth less if you have a Bard, and its overall value depends on how good your ranged is. Goad can spare your ranged from a damage hit to TP regen. DK from Monk is a huge boon if you've got a PLD instead of a DRK, and since the back half of this tier emphasizes dealing with giant incoming damage numbers over DPS output, that's a huge deal.

Looking at DPS averages this tier, Monk's lead is fairly consistent but also not huge at the 75th percentile in actual fights, to the point where it doesn't really give them a clear and decisive lead (looking at, for example, A7S--Disembowel alone pretty much erases their damage lead over DRG at the 75th percentile, and even giving Trick Attack a lowball 1% raid DPS boost, as opposed to the usual 1.66% number, NIN still pulls even) in overall contribution.

I do think if anything this tier matched up with some of the uglier burst sections from last tier, DRG/NIN/MCH would end up pulling ahead by quite a bit, but mostly because we'd be back to DRK over PLD in everything so nobody would get anything out of Monk's debuff. I am sort of surprised we're not seeing speed runs with triple melee/MCH at this point. But with the way the fights work out in practice, the melee balance right now is pretty solid.
 

Valor

Member
- Tank main FC member complains that he dislikes WAR because it's so slow and loves DRK because of all these cool extra buttons there are to push
- Proceeds to pull 285 DPS off-tanking Thordan Extreme with 15% echo

... How about sticking to slow WAR after all?
Tell him to turn Grit off.

There's also consistency of performance, but I feel the balancing checks level out the difficulty of execution between the three. However, I think the endgame fights lend themselves better to DRG and NIN - MNK's chakra and form change skills seem more like stopgap attempts to cover their weakness to mid-fight downtime. Is my evaluation here accurate?
It's going to come down to the player and what class they can play well. There are ninjas who tear shit apart, Dragoons who do, and Monks who do. It's up to optimizing the fight for your chosen class.

Since 3.0 I think my personal favorite of the three is Monk. Monk definitely can handle the fights just fine. From my casual Monk experience Form Shift and Chakra do a really good job of filling in some of the more not-fun parts of the Monk job. The ramp up to GL3 is way quicker than it used to be. The issue comes down to raid dps, and I'm a huge proponent of bringing Disembowel slaves to fights, but I guess it's not required.

However I think you're right for the most part, but I think trashing Monk a little bit too hard. The three are pretty comparable and it's nice to have options as to what to bring with you to have a nice party comp with very few bad solutions.
 

ebil

Member
Tell him to turn Grit off.
What if he didn't have Grit on.

I taught him that it was okay to use Low Blow on cooldown for a DPS increase and it blew his mind. I don't think he really was pushing enough buttons. He didn't really use Dark Arts either...
 

MogCakes

Member
I'm definitely being harder on Monk than is perhaps fair. My knowledge of the current Midas tier is limited so I appreciate the feedback on my synopsis.

MNK is overall considered better in this tier than NIN if you have a MCH. A hypercharged MNK will just fuck shit up and do more damage than any job in the game.

I hadn't considered MCH's boosts to MNK. Their main benefit is being a TP fountain I'm guessing? That would free up chakra for FC use and the MNK doesn't have to sweat over his achilles' heel so much. That comes at a DPS loss to MCH though.

I'm currently a MNK main so I was wary of showing the job any favoritism. I much enjoy Form Shift and the Chakra skills but they still feel more like stopgaps than a fluid part of my rotation. That's probably intentional. MNK might be overpowered if all their skills wove together in combat. I just wasn't sure where the three melee jobs stood relative to each other on the damage scale. It's good to hear Midas allows for more balanced party configs. I think in future class changes MNK should get a bit more defensive utility since that's its main niche. A change to One Ilm Punch that only affects PVE maybe.

But with the way the fights work out in practice, the melee balance right now is pretty solid.

I'm surprised at those logs, they really are within a small percentage of each other. I'd suppose progression groups this time around weren't nearly as stringent with job requirements.

All the egis were changed to magic damage only with Heavenward's release if I recall correctly, so I expect that Dragon Kick does nothing for Ifrit-egi now.

What possible jobs are left that SE could implement with blunt damage? I'm sure somebody thought ahead when they made DK...
 

iammeiam

Member
I'm surprised at those logs, they really are within a small percentage of each other. I'd suppose progression groups this time around weren't nearly as stringent with job requirements.

Elysium actually swapped from DRG/NIN/MCH to NIN/MNK/MCH for A7S and A8S IIRC, for non-DPS reasons. They ran PLD/WAR and wanted the INT debuff for the at-the-time fairly insane incoming damage relative to gear. The only job this tier really heavily favored was MCH over Bard, possibly as a mea culpa for Gordias giving Bard the edge in most fights/MCH spending a tier with balance issues/to get people to finally play the damned job. Even then, people still brought bards, they just lost their presumed default status.

We're far enough in to firmly be in the "bring whatever you want it doesn't really matter" category, but even the super early prog wasn't stacking groups for DPS over all. It's a pretty big change in philosophy.
 

MogCakes

Member
NIN is the only melee I don't have at 60 yet. How long does it take to Goad or Smokescreen someone between having to stop attacking/select party member/cast?
 

Allard

Member
So higher grand company ranks next update?

That's coming in 3.4 with the addition of the platoon/squad content (Training a squad of NPCs for your grand company), 3.3 is just going to see the addition of new glamour gear for each grand company without the rank increase.
 
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