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[WolvenOne]

I think there are probably ways to make monks and bards less essential, without giving new classes identical skills.

I means, you could make TP regeneration scale with skill speed, give all classes access to a super enhanced invigorate or goad, change how summoners regain MP.

I mean, I don't think any of these things would completely mitigate the need for a bard, but at least it'd mitigate how crippled parties would be, going into long fights with no downtime.

As for mitigating monks, well they could add an attack that does the same debuff as Dragon Kick to almost any class.

 

[Kagari]

HD screens: http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20141221_681321.html

 

[Ken]

As for mitigating monks, well they could add an attack that does the same debuff as Dragon Kick to almost any class.

Wow, you should be on the dev team.

 

[WolvenOne]

Wow, you should be on the dev team.

Well, just saying. If adding some overlap moves is their goal, they don't have to limit it to the new classes. Presumably every class is going to get a couple new abilities.

Hopefully nothing that dramatically changes my crossbar set-up mind you. <_<;;

 

[scy]

Honestly, the Bard Paeon thing was actually in a good spot before the Ninja change. Goad alleviated TP concerns for a single melee DPS and Paeon came when the Bard needed it, not when the melee did. That TP change was really awful for multiple classes :/

also, ifrit kick pls

 

[Frumix]

Cards could act as temporary single stat buffs like Presence of Mind. I doubt Yoship will be brave enough to take that approach though, it has some real breaking potential.
Thrice the parry!

 

[scy]

There's 6 of them and each look potentially tied to an element.

finally elemental resists guys

 

[Frumix]

Please no

 

[tiggerkiddo]

There's 6 of them and each look potentially tied to an element.

finally elemental resists guys

It's okay to dream.

 

[Wilsongt]

This cosplayer captured the essence of dragoon perfectly.

 

[Kagari]

Honestly, the Bard Paeon thing was actually in a good spot before the Ninja change. Goad alleviated TP concerns for a single melee DPS and Paeon came when the Bard needed it, not when the melee did. That TP change was really awful for multiple classes :/

also, ifrit kick pls

Thanks Yoshida.

 

[Valor]

There's 6 of them and each look potentially tied to an element.

finally elemental resists guys

Elemental system confirmed. Black Mages everywhere begin to weep quietly.

 

[Isaccard]

Honestly, the Bard Paeon thing was actually in a good spot before the Ninja change. Goad alleviated TP concerns for a single melee DPS and Paeon came when the Bard needed it, not when the melee did. That TP change was really awful for multiple classes :/

also, ifrit kick pls

10 TP really make that big of an impact?

 

[Augemitbutter]

This cosplayer captured the essence of dragoon perfectly.

i like.

 

[Ken]

Well, just saying. If adding some overlap moves is their goal, they don't have to limit it to the new classes. Presumably every class is going to get a couple new abilities.

Hopefully nothing that dramatically changes my crossbar set-up mind you. <_<;;

Overlapping abilities is the last thing I want when we'll probably only get 2-3 new skills from 50-60. Also, "give everyone DK" is the laziest thing I've heard today.

 

[WolvenOne]

Overlapping abilities is the last thing I want when we'll probably only get 2-3 new skills from 50-60. Also, "give everyone DK" is the laziest thing I've heard today.

Didn't say everyone, I said they could give a similar debuff to almost any class. Personally I'd lean towards giving it to Dark Knight, since both existing tanks have damage down debuffs they can put on bosses. Only issue with that is that it'd probably buff the rest of the party more than the DK Tank itself, which might be fine, but might not. Depends how squishy DK is without any debuffs on an enemy.

 

[scy]

10 TP really make that big of an impact?

10 TP on two skills shaved over a minute on their TP duration. What this basically means is they can't make it to another Invigorate without running dry and will run out of TP pretty much in sync with other melee which removes the utility of Goad since it doesn't save the Bard from using Paeon.

 

[Ken]

Didn't say everyone, I said they could give a similar debuff to almost any class. Personally I'd lean towards giving it to Dark Knight, since both existing tanks have damage down debuffs they can put on bosses. Only issue with that is that it'd probably buff the rest of the party more than the DK Tank itself, which might be fine, but might not. Depends how squishy DK is without any debuffs on an enemy.

Then we just run into a repeat of Dancing Edge vs Storms Path.

 

[scy]

Then we just run into a repeat of Dancing Edge vs Storms Path.

Yeah, I don't think we need more exact same abilities like this but just more options of stuff to stack. Of the debuffs to add onto, it's really just Storm's Path + Dragon Kick. It'd be nice to just get an extra debuff or shield or something to deal with damage instead of only one "extra" option like DK ends up being.

Then again, full pentameld and/or waiting for i130 left side defense levels is always an option.

 

[WolvenOne]

Yeah, I don't think we need more exact same abilities like this but just more options of stuff to stack. Of the debuffs to add onto, it's really just Storm's Path + Dragon Kick. It'd be nice to just get an extra debuff or shield or something to deal with damage instead of only one "extra" option like DK ends up being.

Mmm, guess you could do straight 10% Magic Damage mitigation, or, something. I mean it'd be less useful than Storms Path, since that's 10% Any Damage mitigation, but you'd be able to stack it with other stuff, and would give you some options. Mind you, that's awfully close to, just giving DKs Dragon Kick, but 10% intelligence probably doesn't quite translate into 10% less magic damage. Maybe they could do some sort of Combo of debuffs, like 5% Magic Damage down for the entire party, and an additional 5% all damage down for the Tank, or, something I dunno, just throwing things out there at this point.

Okay, granted, I've kinda gotten caught up with putting this sort of ability on DK, that that's not necessarily needed. Again it could be any class, so long as it gives people more options for what their party is going to look like.

 

[WolvenOne]

Changing subjects, just in case anyone missed it last night....

...who wants to bet that Bara's gonna be wearing the head piece from that at some point?

 

[tiggerkiddo]

It begins.

 

[Valor]

Changing subjects, just in case anyone missed it last night....

...who wants to bet that Bara's gonna be wearing the head piece from that at some point?

Who wants to bet that Bara's gonna be wearing those pants at some point?

 

[WolvenOne]

Who wants to bet that Bara's gonna be wearing those pants at some point?

AAAUGH! must, find, BRAINBLEACH!!

 

[Ken]

Mmm, guess you could do straight 10% Magic Damage mitigation, or, something. I mean it'd be less useful than Storms Path, since that's 10% Any Damage mitigation, but you'd be able to stack it with other stuff, and would give you some options. Mind you, that's awfully close to, just giving DKs Dragon Kick, but 10% intelligence probably doesn't quite translate into 10% less magic damage. Maybe they could do some sort of Combo of debuffs, like 5% Magic Damage down for the entire party, and an additional 5% all damage down for the Tank, or, something I dunno, just throwing things out there at this point.

Okay, granted, I've kinda gotten caught up with putting this sort of ability on DK, that that's not necessarily needed. Again it could be any class, so long as it gives people more options for what their party is going to look like.

To be honest, I'm surprised Storms Path has been untouched since launch. If anything, I thought that would get hit by a nerf and Rain of Death continued to have its damage reduction, as the latter just seems like the right cost for the effect (TP sink and DPS loss for damage reduction).

Actually nevermind, RoD was on-demand AoE debuff so it'd be the most amazing thing on t10/12/13. Maybe if it was changed so that only one random enemy received the debuff idk.

 

[Trojita]

They could always give Dragoons a worthwhile party ability.....

 

[Ixian]

To be honest, I'm surprised Storms Path has been untouched since launch. If anything, I thought that would get hit by a nerf and Rain of Death continued to have its damage reduction, as the latter just seems like the right cost for the effect (TP sink and DPS loss for damage reduction).

Which part of Storm's Path? It didn't get the 10% damage reduction buff until Rain of Death got nerfed in 2.1.

 

[EndcatOmega]

They could always give Dragoons a worthwhile party ability.....

We do, reminding our party we could've been a MNK. The tears are great until they kick you.

 

[Ken]

Which part of Storm's Path? It didn't get the 10% damage reduction buff until Rain of Death got nerfed in 2.1.

Oh yeah, was that part of the WAR overhaul? I totally forgot about launch WARs lol.

 

[Valor]

They could always give Dragoons a worthwhile party ability.....

Ring of Thorns is great for parties. Pop the shirt off, slap on a Mog bowtie and spam that thing.

 

[WolvenOne]

Storms Path can be pretty darn vital to Warriors if they're main tanking. It effectively puts us on part with Paladins in sword oath, when it comes to the damage we receive before Cool downs.

Granted, it's even better if we're off tanking, since that mitigation stacks on top of the shield oath buff. If we have to main though, SP makes life a lot easier for Healers.

Incidentally. I'm hoping that after getting to level 60, with that extra skill speed, Warriors will be able to go through all of thier rotations without anything falling off. It's not really necessary of course, but it'd make the Warrior Mit/DPS balancing act a bit easier.

 

[Pyros_Eien]

Overlapping abilities is the last thing I want when we'll probably only get 2-3 new skills from 50-60. Also, "give everyone DK" is the laziest thing I've heard today.

The debuffs can be applied by current abilities, and consolidated in general. The problem when you design purely unique classes but have more classes than slots in your high end raids and you try to fine tune difficulty is that, it often doesn't work. You end up balancing for X setup but by bringing Y setup, you break the balance by having more damage or more mitigation. That's why wow ended up going towards a system where you have a certain amount of buff or debuff category and multiple classes can do them(similar to storm path and shadowwhatever ninja thing) and you then just need to bring classes that cover most/all of these, but not necessarily class X Y Z and wow lucky you, you have one spot to get any class you want. Not a big problem if you play X Y or Z, kinda sucks if you play E or F(or M, but no one cares about M, dumb class).

That said there's also different approaches. Giving similar but not exact copies of the buff/debuff can work, assuming they're balanced properly. You can also rework some basic mechanics and simply remove those buffs/debuffs. For example I wouldn't be super surprised if they just removed Mage's Ballad/Paeon, give Bard different songs instead(haste song, melee damage song, aoe slow+heavy song etc), and added better mana/TP management tools on every classes. If they keep them, I think it's likely they'll give other classes some ways to regen people other than Goad.

Anyway I think they'll shake things up quite a bit, and an expansion is the best time for that. That said the current situation doesn't seem THAT bad.

They haven't talked about 2.5 much at all btw right? Thought maybe they'd have some stuff to show instead of just expansion talk.

 

[Kagari]

Changing subjects, just in case anyone missed it last night....

...who wants to bet that Bara's gonna be wearing the head piece from that at some point?

Japan, why.

 

[scy]

They haven't talked about 2.5 much at all btw right? Thought maybe they'd have some stuff to show instead of just expansion talk.

That's the Live Letter tonight.

 

[BadRNG]

Storms Path can be pretty darn vital to Warriors if they're main tanking. It effectively puts us on part with Paladins in sword oath, when it comes to the damage we receive before Cool downs.

Bwuh?

 

[Valor]

I would expect that if we're going to see any core mechanics changes, they'll be in 3.0. I would anticipate a small reorganization of the class/job system. I don't forsee them making any drastic changes to any of the existing classes, really, but I also didn't anticipate a BLM change in playstyle/rotation, so what do I know.

I'm hoping they add in a small elemental system that classes like BLM/Astrologist/maybe even a Geomancer can really take advantage of, but I dunno how realistic that would be. (Answer: not at all.)

 

[scy]

I would expect that if we're going to see any core mechanics changes, they'll be in 3.0.

change all summons

lets go

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

So do the jobs require leveling 2 classes to use or is that information not available yet?

 

[scy]

No requirements, just a standalone job. No idea what this means on level they start at, how cross-class skills for them work, or if any of this also applies to existing classes.

 

[WolvenOne]

Bwuh?

I should have said, about on par, PLD baseline defense with shield oath on is still a bit better than Warrior baseline defense with Storms Path applied, but it's relatively close under those circumstances.

Mind you PLDs have more going for them than Shield Oath, the presence of a shield for starters makes a pretty big difference. I was merely trying to illustrate why Storms Path can be helpful when Wars are main tanking.

Yes I know, it's not an absolute necessity, and there are plenty of situations where getting the slashing debuff is more important. But then keep in mind that my original comment was in response to the notion that storms path should be nerfed.

 

[EndcatOmega]

I should have said, about on par, PLD baseline defense with shield oath on is still a bit better than Warrior baseline defense with Storms Path applied, but it's relatively close under those circumstances.

It's double the Storm Path's debuff. I wouldn't call that close as such, and a MT Paladin usually has an OT WAR doing it as well.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

No requirements, just a standalone job. No idea what this means on level they start at, how cross-class skills for them work, or if any of this also applies to existing classes.

Alright then.

Thanks.

 

[scy]

Man, I thought he just meant Storm's Path ~= Paladin effective mitigation from having a Shield.

Edit: derp~

 

[WolvenOne]

It's double the Storm Path's debuff. I wouldn't call that close as such, and a MT Paladin usually has an OT WAR doing it as well.

I'm aware, I did mention that it's more ideal for PLD to main since Storms Path will stack. I might also add that PLDs can mitigate physical attacks using Halloween, but it's hard to say how much actual mitigating that does, probably differs from boss to boss.

Storms path has saved my butt many a time though. Particularly during trial roulette, when iI ended up in fresh 50 parties. So it is valuable.

Also, the difference in mitigating is essentially as follows.

Base damage 1000

Applied to PLD with SO = 800

Applied to War with SP = 900

The difference of course is far greater when you get into massive attacks like you see in T5, T9, etc. For most the attacks you'll be tanking in the game though, it's not that big a difference.

Again though, PLDs have more going for them than Shield Oath.

 

[scy]

auto-correct too good

But uh ... I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing against Storm's Path. It's really good. And 800 vs 900 is a weird way to make a case since it's still a 12.5% increase in damage.

And, well, this is ignoring the whole shield thing.

 

[BadRNG]

I should have said, about on par, PLD baseline defense with shield oath on is still a bit better than Warrior baseline defense with Storms Path applied, but it's relatively close under those circumstances.

No, my confusion was because you said sword oath and not shield. Normally I'd think typo but since it's you I thought this was the much anticipated holiday edition of tales from WolvenOne's ass. Luckily we still got that!

It's double the Storm Path's debuff. I wouldn't call that close as such, and a MT Paladin usually has an OT WAR doing it as well.

Yeah, and it's sorta missing the point to begin with, SP is not meant to give WAR compensation for taking more damage. Their extra hp does that, as 25% extra hp is effectively the same thing as 20% less damage. (The only part WAR get short changed here is the healing buff only giving 20% extra rather than 24% extra, but you could argue self heals make up that difference I guess)

 

[WolvenOne]

No, my confusion was because you said sword oath and not shield. Normally I'd think typo but since it's you I thought this was the much anticipated holiday edition of tales from WolvenOne's ass. Luckily we still got that!


Yeah, and it's sorta missing the point to begin with, SP is not meant to give WAR compensation for taking more damage. Their extra hp does that, as 25% extra hp is effectively the same thing as 20% less damage. (The only part WAR get short changed here is the healing buff only giving 20% extra rather than 24% extra, but you could argue self heals make up that difference I guess)

I'm aware of all this, but if I don't trust the Healers to keep me alive while maining something, you bet your buttons that I'm going to be keeping Storms Path up.

 

[BadRNG]

auto-correct too good

But uh ... I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing against Storm's Path. It's really good. And 800 vs 900 is a weird way to make a case since it's still a 12.5% increase in damage.

And, well, this is ignoring the whole shield thing.

What was playstation correcting I wonder, halloween was obvious but drawing a blank for playstation.

Yeah, SP is crazy good, for everyone all the time. I think Ken's original point was it was too good? Which is arguable I guess, but I think WAR originally got it to make them more desirable in groups outside the actual tanking buffs. I am guessing fights are designed with it in mind at this point.

I haven't seen the math on 130/135 shields but I'm having difficulty imagining they are anywhere near 10% damage overall mitigated in a fight like SP. I wasn't sure if he thought shields gave extra defense or if he thought blocks actually equaled SP either, but that was my original thought to his statement I quoted as well.

I'm aware of all this, but if I don't trust the Healers to keep me alive while maining something, you bet your buttons that I'm going to be keeping Storms Path up.

I have no idea what you are even arguing for at this point, are you under the impression people are saying not to use Storm's Path? Man I got enough trouble convincing our WAR to keep it up 100% as is.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

I'm aware of all this, but if I don't trust the Healers to keep me alive while maining something, you bet your buttons that I'm going to be keeping Storms Path up.

Then get a static and hold it together if trust is that much of an issue? If someone can't even trust the people in their raid to be competent enough to get things done, then why even raid with said group? I understand the debuff is nice and all and is required later on, but building some sort of trust with your other members is more important than any debuff before then.

 

[EndcatOmega]

WI have no idea what you are even arguing for at this point, are you under the impression people are saying not to use Storm's Path? Man I got enough trouble convincing our WAR to keep it up 100% as is.

Warriors should focus on Storm's Eye so that Maple stops yapping about having to do 1% less damage imooooooo.