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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
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We know the throne will be ashes, we just don't know how yet
If we're taking Dany's visions in the House of the Undying as fact, then that means she also dies and meets Drogo and her son in the afterlife.
molnizzle
Member
He stages his fleet miles off the coast where the Unsullied won't see and has a small scout ship closer to land. Scout ship signals the fleet to move in once the Unsullied attack.
That's one of like 4,000 ways Euron could have achieved the surprise attack. The details were left out because they're irrelevant, the important bit is that the Unsullied fleet is now wiped the fuck out.
That's one of like 4,000 ways Euron could have achieved the surprise attack. The details were left out because they're irrelevant, the important bit is that the Unsullied fleet is now wiped the fuck out.
The problem is that time seems to be moving differently for different people. The unsullied left at around the same time as Yara. How the fuck does Euron attack Yara, sail back to KL to parade, and then sail around the continent to fuck with the Unsullied's transports? It didn't take long for the unsullied to sneak attack a poorly manned castle, so euron shouldn't be coming and going that fast.
This is what I said some pages back. Having that shot of the Silence was totally unnecesary.
I'm so conflicted on the pacing of this season. On one hand, I'm really enjoying what they're put on show so far and this episode is probably my favorite yet. However, I can't deny it feels like things are set on fast forward and characters are appearing all over Westeros between scenes. With so few episodes left I'm fine with moving a bit quicker than usual to get all the pieces into place, but it's such a large contrast to the previous six seasons in which stretches of episodes could focus on characters' travels from location to location. It just feels like there are details that could be fleshed out and stories developed to make a full 10 episode season without it just being considered filler.
That said, I loved the interactions between Daenerys and Jon. It was just as I'd hoped it would be for years, and I'm glad Jon didn't bend the knee. Him not taking Daenerys' bullshit was immensely satisfying. Tyrion makes an excellent point about neither knowing each other well enough.
That said, I loved the interactions between Daenerys and Jon. It was just as I'd hoped it would be for years, and I'm glad Jon didn't bend the knee. Him not taking Daenerys' bullshit was immensely satisfying. Tyrion makes an excellent point about neither knowing each other well enough.
peteykirch
Member
I said it last night shortly after the episode ended and no one said anything else on the subject.
I think they just did it to make Euron really seem like an unstoppable force though.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
For a sail ship? Everything from the rigging to the frame of the ship to the materials used on the wood. Euron's fleet is supposed to be new construction so I'm assuming it's much better tech with them.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
How does he pass the Unsullied fleet in your situation to station his ships off the coast to sit and wait?
His fleet would need to be waiting, which means they need to be ahead of them, which means they passed them (even after the backtracking to King Landing).
The details are important in building a believable world and narrative that feels earned. Saying the details aren't important is basically the antithesis of what made the entire series so great and special.
Conkerkid11
Member
This is just amazing casting because back then she looked so much like Natalie Dormer.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
White Walkers have no industry or capability to build boats on a large enough scale to carry their entire army. Where would they get nails or the cloth to build masks?
White Walkers are a force of nature, they probably don't even know how to build boats.
The timelines for the ships this season bothers me less than the 1000 ships being built (although I have a few ways to logic that away, namely they didn't actually build 1000...) or how the fuck Euron got his fleet in and out of King's Landing multiple times, when that should mean going right past Dragonstone each time.
I have to assume we're not done with Dorne. Tyrells? Sure, over. They've been in the limelight for the last few seasons, and the explosion at the sept was really their end. Losing Highgarden was just the cherry on top to clear out the last loose thread with them. Martells will clearly come into play with Sam and his father. Dorne still has an army, one that hates the Lannisters, and is still itching for a fight. It just needs a way to King's Landing and a leader. A rescue at King's Landing could shift that stuff a bit.
Part of the trickiness is that the show is coy with when timelines are actually happening relative to one another and how long the gaps between scenes are. Eg the Dany and Euron scenes might not have happened in the order shown. This episode was really heavy on large movements - Jon from Winterfell to Dragonstone (though he wasn't leading an army, so could have moved quick), Euron from King's Landing to Casterly Rock, Jaime from King's Landing to Highgarden (presuming he sent an order via raven for the Lannister army to head south). Those are all pretty big trips, so the episode likely would have been 1-2 months of real time, easily.
For Euron, it's not clear if he was in King's Landing swearing to Cersei before or after Dany took Dragonstone. For the sake of timeline I'll assume he had already sworm fealty and was hanging out somewhere in the ocean when Dany reached Dragonstone.
So sequence would have been:
Greyworm/Unusllied depart from Dragonstone sometime around when Yara does for Dorne. I'd guess Greyworm left first due to distance to target.
Between Dragonstone and Dorne, Yara and co are overrun by Euron (who sailed out of King's Landing or already at sea) and captured. Depending on how early in that trip that occurred, Euron's trip back to Kings Landing could be pretty short.
Euron returns to King's Landing and presents his prize, and almost immediately turns around and sails for Casterly Rock. Jaime was at the throne room when Euron presented his gifts, so Jaime would have departed for Highgarden around when Euron leaves.
Greyworm and his army arrive after a pretty long trip to take Casterly Rock (Dragonstone to Casterly Rock is pretty similar in distance as Mereen to Dragonstone) quite quickly - the actual assault was short, but they may have not attacked immediately.
Euron arrives and wipes out Greyworm's moored fleet. Not surprising - Unsullied aren't sailors, they'd suck in an open water battle. They'd almost all be ashore at this point, with just a small number of sailors manning the boats.
Jaime takes Highgarden after a siege of undetermined length. Maybe they attacked immediately, maybe it lasted a few weeks, who knows. In reality that castle could hold out a long ass time, so who knows why it fell quick.
So this timeline works out fine to me. Greyworm would have had a big headstart on Euron, but Euron and his fleet are the fastest and most experienced around, while Greyworm and his unsullied are most definitely not sailors (I'm guessing some Iron Islanders were in charge of Greyworm's fleet, but not tons) and the time/distance to go from King's Landing to Casterly Rock would have left ample time for Euron to catch up.
Actually, given that last part - the Unsullied being ashore already can be seen as a bit of a defeat for Euron. If he had caught up before the Unsullied landed, he could have wiped out Dany's entire Unsullied army. Now that the army is fortified, even with low provisions it's a huge danger to Cersei's ambitions.
So at this point, Dany still has the Dothraki in hand, possibly Dornish support (especially if she can't mount a rescue). Highgarden's armies are unaccounted for but we can probably remove them from play. The Unsullied were only marginally bloodied taking Casterly Rock, but lost their ships. The could march towards Riverrun to link up with the armies of the North if Jon and Dany come to an agreement. They probably wouldn't head to Highgarden. The fleets sent to transport the Unsullied and Yara's fleet are totally gone (save for 3 from Yara's fleet), so there's just an unknown number of ships at Dragonstone in hand. Time for the return of Sallador San?
I have to assume we're not done with Dorne. Tyrells? Sure, over. They've been in the limelight for the last few seasons, and the explosion at the sept was really their end. Losing Highgarden was just the cherry on top to clear out the last loose thread with them. Martells will clearly come into play with Sam and his father. Dorne still has an army, one that hates the Lannisters, and is still itching for a fight. It just needs a way to King's Landing and a leader. A rescue at King's Landing could shift that stuff a bit.
Part of the trickiness is that the show is coy with when timelines are actually happening relative to one another and how long the gaps between scenes are. Eg the Dany and Euron scenes might not have happened in the order shown. This episode was really heavy on large movements - Jon from Winterfell to Dragonstone (though he wasn't leading an army, so could have moved quick), Euron from King's Landing to Casterly Rock, Jaime from King's Landing to Highgarden (presuming he sent an order via raven for the Lannister army to head south). Those are all pretty big trips, so the episode likely would have been 1-2 months of real time, easily.
For Euron, it's not clear if he was in King's Landing swearing to Cersei before or after Dany took Dragonstone. For the sake of timeline I'll assume he had already sworm fealty and was hanging out somewhere in the ocean when Dany reached Dragonstone.
So sequence would have been:
Greyworm/Unusllied depart from Dragonstone sometime around when Yara does for Dorne. I'd guess Greyworm left first due to distance to target.
Between Dragonstone and Dorne, Yara and co are overrun by Euron (who sailed out of King's Landing or already at sea) and captured. Depending on how early in that trip that occurred, Euron's trip back to Kings Landing could be pretty short.
Euron returns to King's Landing and presents his prize, and almost immediately turns around and sails for Casterly Rock. Jaime was at the throne room when Euron presented his gifts, so Jaime would have departed for Highgarden around when Euron leaves.
Greyworm and his army arrive after a pretty long trip to take Casterly Rock (Dragonstone to Casterly Rock is pretty similar in distance as Mereen to Dragonstone) quite quickly - the actual assault was short, but they may have not attacked immediately.
Euron arrives and wipes out Greyworm's moored fleet. Not surprising - Unsullied aren't sailors, they'd suck in an open water battle. They'd almost all be ashore at this point, with just a small number of sailors manning the boats.
Jaime takes Highgarden after a siege of undetermined length. Maybe they attacked immediately, maybe it lasted a few weeks, who knows. In reality that castle could hold out a long ass time, so who knows why it fell quick.
So this timeline works out fine to me. Greyworm would have had a big headstart on Euron, but Euron and his fleet are the fastest and most experienced around, while Greyworm and his unsullied are most definitely not sailors (I'm guessing some Iron Islanders were in charge of Greyworm's fleet, but not tons) and the time/distance to go from King's Landing to Casterly Rock would have left ample time for Euron to catch up.
Actually, given that last part - the Unsullied being ashore already can be seen as a bit of a defeat for Euron. If he had caught up before the Unsullied landed, he could have wiped out Dany's entire Unsullied army. Now that the army is fortified, even with low provisions it's a huge danger to Cersei's ambitions.
So at this point, Dany still has the Dothraki in hand, possibly Dornish support (especially if she can't mount a rescue). Highgarden's armies are unaccounted for but we can probably remove them from play. The Unsullied were only marginally bloodied taking Casterly Rock, but lost their ships. The could march towards Riverrun to link up with the armies of the North if Jon and Dany come to an agreement. They probably wouldn't head to Highgarden. The fleets sent to transport the Unsullied and Yara's fleet are totally gone (save for 3 from Yara's fleet), so there's just an unknown number of ships at Dragonstone in hand. Time for the return of Sallador San?
Valkyr Junkie
Member
They can't go in the water?
The sea will probably freeze during winter for them to go around the wall anyways.
molnizzle
Member
We had 6 seasons of boring details and world building. Now we're getting into the climax.
Euron' ships are faster and his crew more skilled, they were able to pass the Unsullied despite taking a wider route as to not be seen. That's one possible explanation. There are hundreds of others.
The point is it doesn't matter exactly how Euron did it. There are possible explanations, but they're not important.
3 episodes in and some people here are still not trying to understand the huge acceleration ramp, both in time and space, that the story has taken. Take 5 minutes and think about it. Reading people who complain without any start of consideration of what's new in the writing/directing/editing in this season is painful. Especially since the writers/producers/cast has been talking about it in the promotionnal campaign.
It's gotta be some weird magic thing to do with the wall. I mean, the sole purpose of a boat is to keep you out of the water, so I'm not sure how'd that be intolerable compared to walking on ice.
Well, you could also argue that perhaps it wasn't the exact same day Euron's fleet arrived.. but they ruined that by having Grey Worm interrogate that dying Lannister soldier just before seeing the attack.
I can suspend disbelief here though. Maybe the unsullied fleet wasn't sailing on bust like Euron's did in pursuit. Euron's vessel clearly looks superior and would be able to 'catch up'. There's something else going on though with the all the strategizing. I don't think Cersei and company are just predicting all the right moves. Someone is clearly betraying Dany and leaking info. If that isn't the case, then Euron's invincible fleet is a terrible plot device.
I can suspend disbelief here though. Maybe the unsullied fleet wasn't sailing on bust like Euron's did in pursuit. Euron's vessel clearly looks superior and would be able to 'catch up'. There's something else going on though with the all the strategizing. I don't think Cersei and company are just predicting all the right moves. Someone is clearly betraying Dany and leaking info. If that isn't the case, then Euron's invincible fleet is a terrible plot device.
Urgency can't make you defy the laws of Physics.
Well bear in mind Euron's fleet has only fought two battles, and destroying Greyworm's fleet would have hardly been a battle anyways. Euron's fleet could also be more naval combat oriented than Dany's - Dany's seems to be mostly for transporting her troops, Euron's is more for open sea combat. So they might have lost some in the Yara ambush, but he really hasn't had a real naval test yet.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Right but the timelines don't add up. Even with asynchronous timelines occuring, unless we think it took months for them to hear about the ambush of the greyjoys and Martell's.
The greyjoys left for Dorne and were ambushed. The unsullied remained at dragonstone for a month or so, then set sail? The Tyrell army marched for Kings landing (or maybe not). Jaime moved the army to Tyrell around the time that the ambush of the greyjoys was happening? But no because he was in Kings landing when Euron returned. So Euron ambushes the fleet, returns to Kings landing. Jaime leaves right after to join the forces that have left casterly rock. Euron leaves immediately to casterly rock, beating the unsullied who have remained in dragonstone.....
I mean I can't actually write down what I think happened when.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I don't know why you watched this show if the actual details and world building never actually mattered or interested you.
The details always matter, it's the difference between watching the first four seasons and noticing consequences of actions and how they played out, versus watching this season and just seeing events unfold because they need to.
You say we had six seasons of world building and build up, yet we still need build up and world building with Danny just getting to Westeros because she had no allies and had to set everything up. What would have taken half a season of set up, political intrigue and movement and pacing that would make sense and wouldn't cause major leaps in imagination, we're getting done in an episode and a half because D&D fucked up and needs to
That's not good writing or pacing. Being told to "brace for maximum overdrive" means they fucked up the previous seasons and overall planning of the series and are now paying the price by making the first half of this season a series of footnotes in order to get to a preplanned end point.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Imagine the red wedding without all the little details setting it up. As details aren't important, just bad ass totally awesome scenes.
Imagine cutting Ned Stark investigating the seed is strong, he found out off screen about the Lannister incest. But who cares, he got his head chopped the fuck off. The details don't mean shit.
Imagine the mountain vs the viper without the conversation between Oberyn and Tyrion. Doesn't matter, Oberyn agreed off screen to fight for Tyrion. Dat fight doe.
The 'boring details' are part of what made the show so great.
Passing stuff off as ' well clearly months have passed' when the show does nothing to show a passage of time is lame. The pacing has just been ridiculous this season.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
All it takes is one scene of Greyworm seeing the fleet on their ass.
All it takes is an obvious passage of time with the army holding down the castle for a fortnight and then waking up to their navy being destroyed and them being stranded.
There are so many ways to write the fleet into this situation without completely breaking suspension of disbelief.
JustSomeone
Member
Am I the only one who roots for Cersei's side?
Sure, Danny has Tyrion, but other then him, all the cool characters are on Cersei's side.
Sure, Danny has Tyrion, but other then him, all the cool characters are on Cersei's side.
There's some awful pacing this episode. We saw that the unsullied and Sand Snakes/ Yara left around the same time. Euron was able to intercept the girls, go to King's Landing, and still had time to fight the unsullied on the other side of the continent in the span of a couple of days? It makes no sense. We didn't need to see the Iron Fleet fighting the unsullied; we could have assumed from Jaime's dialogue later on that the unsullied wouldn't be able to hold Casterly Rock - we didn't need to see the whole thing in action and it wouldn't have been so dumb. Usually this show has a problem with traveling taking (perhaps) too long; this season has the opposite problem. They needed more episodes because this stuff is moving way, way too fast.
Pacing problems work both ways. Making a show go at breakneck speed is also bad pacing.
Pacing problems work both ways. Making a show go at breakneck speed is also bad pacing.
Seductivpancakes
Member
I think it's safe to assume during Euron's travels he stumbled upon a FTL technology and have been using it to become the best captain of the 14 seas.
And Jaime and army had their wheaties that day to march from KL all the way to highgarden in less than a day with enough energy to siege a castle.
And Jaime and army had their wheaties that day to march from KL all the way to highgarden in less than a day with enough energy to siege a castle.
JustSomeone
Member
He could have splitted his fleet, you know. He wasn't in casterly rock, or at least he wasn't shown there.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Keep in mind that they still have more runtime left than the entirety of the Lord of the Rings: Extended Editions to wrap this up. There are a few more moving pieces, but it shouldn't be that hard. That said, my favourite parts of the show are the the slow character building interactions.
I had the same thought last night, but someone pointed out that Euron's ship was in the battle. In fact, it was a focal point of the shot.
Pretty sure that's the Silence.
The camera focused in on it a bit too much to just be another ship.
If they never showed the Silence it would've made much more sense Euron just split his fleet up.
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
Next season 2019?
The Unsullied need to be far enough ahead or far enough behind the other fleet that got ambushed that they don't witness the thing. But if they're that fucking far behind how does word not reach back to Dragonstone of the Yara/Theon fleet demise? How did the unsullied fleet not come upon the ashes of the wreck? Also depending on where Euron attacked, he'd need to go back toward Dragonstone with his captured gifts. How did he not cross paths with the Unsullied at this point?
I guess the other question is why the fuck aren't both these fleets following the same path together for half the fucking trip? Is Dany that goddamned dumb? Is Tyrion?
That's my other problem with what's going on. We should be nearing the ends of character arcs now, with build up starting paying off. Tyrion is supposed to be a competent hand of the queen because of his experiences. Is he just going to end up tossed off the fucking castle at this point? He's been completely useless to her. The show hasn't done a good job of showing his advice helping her at all through the last two seasons.
I feel like all development is thrown away so they can have a surprise wizard ship captain fuck everyone over. If Euron was this goddamned important to the endgame he should have been in the show earlier and had some bigger development showing his cunning and tactics. Instead he has the biggest luck in all of Westeros. He shows up one day, decides to be king of the iron islands and shit just falls into place while he walks around spouting badly written script lines. It's infuriating.
He could have, but the show makes it a point to show his ship.
Splitting his fleet still would have been ridiculous though. The guy loses his best ships to Yara/Theon and is still able to sneak attack them out of nowhere, get to their lead ships and take prisoners all with half a fleet?
I guess the other question is why the fuck aren't both these fleets following the same path together for half the fucking trip? Is Dany that goddamned dumb? Is Tyrion?
That's my other problem with what's going on. We should be nearing the ends of character arcs now, with build up starting paying off. Tyrion is supposed to be a competent hand of the queen because of his experiences. Is he just going to end up tossed off the fucking castle at this point? He's been completely useless to her. The show hasn't done a good job of showing his advice helping her at all through the last two seasons.
I feel like all development is thrown away so they can have a surprise wizard ship captain fuck everyone over. If Euron was this goddamned important to the endgame he should have been in the show earlier and had some bigger development showing his cunning and tactics. Instead he has the biggest luck in all of Westeros. He shows up one day, decides to be king of the iron islands and shit just falls into place while he walks around spouting badly written script lines. It's infuriating.
He could have, but the show makes it a point to show his ship.
Splitting his fleet still would have been ridiculous though. The guy loses his best ships to Yara/Theon and is still able to sneak attack them out of nowhere, get to their lead ships and take prisoners all with half a fleet?
Bran had the same visions
I think we'd have to assume the unsullied left before the other fleet. Otherwise, as you said: it makes no sense.
He let his XO take the ship?
They got a huge fucking castle, weapons, and some kind of armor. Unless these things appeared out of thin air (which I'm not counting out at this point) they must have some capacity for production, right?
I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here, as I understand that it's like space magic or plotkai or whatever that's keeping them away.
I literally said that in the second sentence you quoted. Which is why I asked about boats...?
Good point about the water freezing, though. I suppose they probably see it as an inevitability and are more than happy to just wait it out.
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
The thought of that is enough for me to be mad, can't imagine the wait with what I am sure will be one hell of a cliffhanger.
I was under the impression that the Unsullied fleet sailed before Yara's fleet.
I'm on Jon's side, if I had to choose.
Jon
Davos
Sam
That's a power team, as far as going up against the WWs go. Plus the whole of the north (if Sansa doesn't screw it up!)
I think its about as likely as there being a traitor in Dany's camp. It's bad writing, plain and simple. It's not impossible. But I guess we'll know for sure in the coming episodes.
Edit: In response to a comment above, I think they're handling Tyrion just fine. Tytion is very clever, but he made a huge mistake. It happens. He was great at King's Landing when he had hundreds of pages of defensive strategy to comb through for one particular castle, but maybe he wasn't ready for this particular role. I don't think there is an issue here.
Even then that's pretty crazy. That means they have even more time to sack a pretty nearly empty castle while Euron goes on parade in King's Landing then sails all the way around and attacks them at the literal right moment they're attacking Casterly Rock.
Sure, it could have happened that way I guess, but how much luck does this guy have?
They would have to, I suppose, but is there anything in the show pointing that out at all?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The fact we are having such conversations just shows they are doing a poor job at describing the details of the world and how events are even happening.
It was a very strong episode. I hadn't thought about how cool it would be for Olenna to be able to tell Cersei or Jamie that it was her that killed their cunt of a son. Being able to revisit a moment from three seasons ago and bring it back to relevancy is one of the great things about this show.
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