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[Einchy]

No, I think that's actually a pretty easy problem to solve. For instance, when Euron brings Cersei the captives, there could just be a single line saying something to the effect that he's already got a surprise waiting at Casterly Rock.

Which ruins the whole scene because we're not supposed to know Tyrion has been outsmarted, we're supposed to think everything went according to plan.

 

[Eidan]

If this was the first three seasons, there would be so many damn scenes of the characters talking on the road just chatting about themselves. So many long chats on boats. I'm very happy the Martin fat has been trimmed.

 

[ViciousDS]

I don't know how any of this makes sense considering the layout of Westeros though

the only way possible it even makes sense for how he got there was that there was an insane time lapse from Euron going to kings landing and then back to Castorly Rock.

I mean it probably took a lot of time for the Unsullied to get there too.


There was probably months between planning and the actual events happening.

 

[Stat!]

There's no reason for her to stay alive. Her army is dead so she's not going to be any help to Dany anytime soon.

She is dead. Why would Jaime even think of that?

Maybe cersei was like "bring her back alive" and Jamie wanted her to reveal her secrets or something like that thinking she was dead.

I'm just saying if we didn't see her die...maybe there's a chance lol. I'm so delusional.

 

[TimeEffect]

Where are you getting this from?

I've noticed you said this before.

Varys has stated many times he has no interest in the throne. He just wants to serve a good ruler who cares about the people.

I read it from a GAFfer, but I was originally assuming he was just a guy who wanted a good ruler too. Did he serve the Targs? Maybe he's just loyal to them most?

Varys was able to capture and torture the person (I believe he was a sorcerer) that made him a eunuch. I don't think varys himself possesses any magic, but I think they're hinting that there is a dark side we haven't yet seen.

That's what Im thinking, much like we found out the Red Priestess was really like 300 years old

 

[The One Who Knocks]

I was wondering if Varys lost his entire network, which doesn't seem to be the case from the quick search I did on the wiki and what I assumed in the first place.

Qyburn most likely took control of the majority of the local Kings Landing network and probably a few of the longer distance ones.

What evidence in the show is there that this is the case? We also only see a few of the orphans of King's Landing in the scene featuring Qyburn's seizing of Varys's source of information, it doesn't mean we're to assume that they're the only ones he's now gaining information from and retaining contact from, it is representative of the transferring of loyalty of the little birds from Varys to Qyburn. It's entirely possible Varys still has sources of information across the seven kingdoms, but all we have seen in the show is that the orphans were loyal to Varys because he bribed them, and that now they're providing Qyburn with information and that he (Qyburn) knows how Varys had been receiving intel (orphaned children being his main source as far as we're aware).

If the show displays otherwise and you've a scene backing this up perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do not recall any indication that Varys still retains the strong network (a few, certainly, not outside the realm of possibility) of spies he once had, while we do have strong indication that Qyburn has taken that network.

 

[BumRush]

Faster pacing > plausibility over travel time

 

[Heshinsi]

If we're taking Dany's visions in the House of the Undying as fact, then that means she also dies and meets Drogo and her son in the afterlife.

She turned Drogo away though. The vision was a trap.

I think it does though, because there is a difference between Winter and the WW's. There have been winters in the past that, ones that Ned lived through but it has been thousands of years since a WW invasion. Winter may not come to Essos but the WW army probably does. Also, the reason no one mentions it is because no one hardly even mentions it in Westeros, because it's been so long that it's just a folk tale to them. In a land where they don't even see winter, why would they even consider the thought of the snow zombies, lol.

Guaranteed it affects Essos and imagine how shitty of an ending that would be to the viewer, oh, lets just sail there, all us important people are safe now, thanks for the ships Euron, thanks iron fleet, tough luck Night King, maybe in a thousand more.



I'd be alright with an ending like that as well.

If the White Walkers could freeze the ocean, what is the point of the wall, and why haven't they come down in the 8000 years since their withdrawal? I don't think Essos has anything to worry about. The WW need a land that gets winter, and Essos doesn't get winter at all.

 

[ComputerBlue]

the only way possible it even makes sense for how he got there was that there was an insane time lapse from Euron going to kings landing and then back to Castorly Rock.

I mean it probably took a lot of time for the Unsullied to get there too.


There was probably months between planning and the actual events happening.

They really should have ended last weeks episode with Euron bringing Yara and the SS's to Cersei.

I never complain about the story jumping but it was pretty ridiculous this week with Euron.

 

[RDreamer]

Faster pacing > plausibility over travel time

Plausibility/believability of the story > Everything else

The show's falling apart. Faster pacing can be done, but it should be done by having to hand wave everything especially when it's such a change from the first few seasons that really got into details and made sure everything made sense and consequences were logical.

 

[Aikidoka]

Which ruins the whole scene because we're not supposed to know Tyrion has been outsmarted, we're supposed to think everything went according to plan.

It hardly ruins anything considering how brief amount of time was devoted to the whole thing....

 

[WaterAstro]

I don't see Cersei/Jaime outsmarting Tyrion though so completely. I haven't followed the thread tonight, but I'd swear there's a spy in Dany's camp, but the only candidates would be Varys or Melisandre which doesn't seem at all likely.

This complete and utter destruction of Dany's forces is way too much...

Greyjoy fleet - gone
Dornish army - essentially gone without the Sands
Tyrell army - gone
Unsullied - stranded in Casterly Rock
Dragon's - at ~least one is going to die with the Ballista's

You forgot one thing: The Power of Love.

Dany and Jon Snow's love will overcome Euron, Cersei, and the White Walkers. It will even overcome time and space. It will even defeat Thanos.

Love.

 

[Ocarina_117]

If this was the first three seasons, there would be so many damn scenes of the characters talking on the road just chatting about themselves. So many long chats on boats. I'm very happy the Martin fat has been trimmed.

A lot of what made the show brilliant early on was 'Martin fat'.

The Brienne Jaimie dynamic was brilliant in season 3, for example. Imagine they cut it all straight to kings landing.

 

[Sectorseven]

She turned Drogo away though. The vision was a trap.



If the White Walkers could freeze the ocean, what is the point of the wall, and why haven't they come down in the 8000 years since their withdrawal? I don't think Essos has anything to worry about. The WW need a land that gets winter, and Essos doesn't get winter at all.

We know the wall was supposedly infused with magical spells. Maybe there was sort of magic holding the WW back that has faded over the centuries, or maybe they've grown stronger and are now overpowering that magic, or both.

 

[Einchy]

It hardly ruins anything considering how brief amount of time was devoted to the whole thing....

The whole end of the episode is supposed to be a surprise and it's not one if we know that Euron is going there. Tyrion's commentary is the expectation from him and the audience, and the reveal at the end is the reality.

 

[NandoGip]

How is introducing the unbeatable teleporting Euron tying up lose ends?

Iron born, sand snake, and tyrell story is done now. Everything is being set up a certain way

 

[Heshinsi]

You forgot one thing: The Power of Love.

Dany and Jon Snow's love will overcome Euron, Cersei, and the White Walkers. It will even overcome time and space. It will even defeat Thanos.

Love.

I was down by the end of this episode, but thanks for lifting my spirits.

 

[ComputerBlue]

She turned Drogo away though. The vision was a trap.



If the White Walkers could freeze the ocean, what is the point of the wall, and why haven't they come down in the 8000 years since their withdrawal? I don't think Essos has anything to worry about. The WW need a land that gets winter, and Essos doesn't get winter at all.

We don't know if the WW's need a land that gets winter, of if the WW's bring the winter with them.

The reason why they haven't come down isn't explained. Maybe they were dormant, or maybe the NK was rebuilding his army, who knows. But it certainly wasn't because of a lack of winter because there have been many winters since the last invasion.

There is absolutely no way that Essos is a scape goat to any threat, that would probably be the worst ending possible for GoT and GRRM isn't that unimaginative.

 

[Einchy]

I was down by the end of this episode, but thanks for lifting my spirits.

It'll be okay.

 

[Aikidoka]

The whole end of the episode is supposed to be a surprise and it's not one if we know that Euron is going there. Tyrion's commentary is the expectation from him and the audience, and the reveal at the end is the reality.

It's clearly not some big reveal and certainly wouldn't have been harmed by a small amount of foreshadowing. Taken as is, the only surprise generated is due to incredulity of it all.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Iron born, sand snake, and tyrell story is done now. Everything is being set up a certain way

Unless you think Cersei is gonna keep the iron throne, shit is just more difficult for Dany now. Making a problem harder to solve is the opposite of "tying things up".

And neither of those Houses are a separate storyline. They're all the same story just woven together.

 

[Eidan]

A lot of what made the show brilliant early on was 'Martin fat'.

The Brienne Jaimie dynamic was brilliant in season 3, for example. Imagine they cut it all straight to kings landing.

That wasn't fat. There were several significant plot developments during those moments. No, Martin fat would be everything Brienne related in Book 4. And much of Arya's stuff in Season 2.

 

[Heshinsi]

We know the wall was supposedly infused with magical spells. Maybe there was sort of of magic holding the WW back that has faded over the centuries. or maybe they've grown stronger and are now overpowering that magic, or both.

Well if they can reach Essos, that means they'd have to freeze the Narrow Sea. If they could do that, they don't need a wall to stop them right? Just freeze the ocean around it and walk lol. Also, how did that one wright get past the wall in the first season when Benjen can't?

 

[Sendero]

If he's able to see the future and has been paying attention to him, then it's possible that he needs that ignorance to move plans forward.

That's what I'm guessing. Although Littlefinger's quote seemed too coincidental with Bran's arrival.

When you think about it, she stole a life from the Many Faced God when she resurrected Jon Snow, didn't she?

Oh, nice. Hadn't made that connection. But Melissandre death should go to Ser Davos, for the sake of Shireen.


I wasn't too bothered for the Iron-born navy 'teleportation'. Any hinting that they were on the move, would have robed the surprise of the trap. Tyrion plan was so simple/good, that we are supposed to assume it would be a success (even if for a second).

But I do think that the need to end each chapter with a big moment, is inevitably affecting the scene sequencing. Which does rob a bit of their individual impact. But overall, this one was good enough.

 

[Einchy]

It's clearly not some big reveal and certainly wouldn't have been harmed by a small amount of foreshadowing. Taken as is, the only surprise generated is due to incredulity of it all.

Foreshadowing is fine, especially when it's so subtle that we don't realize it, but you're asking for Euron to outright say he will be at Casterly Rock, something we're not supposed to know. Jaime's whole plan happened off screen so we wouldn't know that Tyrion's was gonna fail.

 

[soundscream]

It'll be okay.

Was this done using MS paint?

 

[wandering]

We had 6 seasons of boring details and world building. Now we're getting into the climax.

Euron' ships are faster and his crew more skilled, they were able to pass the Unsullied despite taking a wider route as to not be seen. That's one possible explanation. There are hundreds of others.

The point is it doesn't matter exactly how Euron did it. There are possible explanations, but they're not important.

Without the details and world building it's nothing more than a soap opera.

 

[Einchy]

Was this done using MS paint?

Are you calling Jon and Dany shippers untalented!?

 

[BumRush]

Plausibility/believability of the story > Everything else

The show's falling apart. Faster pacing can be done, but it should be done by having to hand wave everything especially when it's such a change from the first few seasons that really got into details and made sure everything made sense and consequences were logical.

Plausibility of the story as a whole, totally agree. But without an intimate knowledge of where certain towns / cities are and how big the world is, I don't think the average viewer cares as much about the time it takes to get somewhere.

 

[soundscream]

Are you calling Jon and Dany shippers untalented!?

Nikita-juice Tumblr was a mistake.

 

[y2dvd]

I find the pacing of this season odd also. It could be that I binged watch seasons 1-6 in the past 2 months, so I got to go from one episode to the next immediately where as now I gotta wait a week per episode. But I want to say the pacing still feels a bit off for me.

For the most part, the dialogue is captivating, but knowing the last two seasons will be shorter, I am surprised how extended some of the scenes are. But at the same time, the action is on overdrive. It's either too fast or too slow and not as balanced as the stronger seasons. Knowing the amount of episodes left is definitely affecting my expectations.

Cersei: That whole scene with Ellaria is a quick reminder of why you love to hate Cersei lol. Her getting off afterwards with Jaime speaks volumes.

Jaime: I feel he is slowly descending again due to his love for his sister. He is going to crack.

Dany/Jon: She has a shitty way of making allies when allies are most needed. I suppose I get the history of their family as she explained it, but they both agreed not to judge someone for the actions of their father, yet she was doing exactly that. I was relieved to see no lovey dovey crap from the get-go. Sir Davos introducing Jon got a good laugh!

Bran: Quit speaking so vague brah! It's not long or difficult to explain there was another three-eyed raven that passed away and now he is the three-eyed raven lol.

Greyscale: That cure just seems way too simple and straightforward. Eh moving on.

Unsullied: Are they all basically wrecked at this point?

Loved the final scene with Jamie and Olenna.

Euron: I couldn't put my finger on it until now, but this dude reminds me exactly like Kano from the Mortal Kombat movie, from looks to mannerisms. He was over the top last episode but I gotta admit him constantly jesting Jaime is hilarious. His fleet is OP ass hell though. He's taking everone out too efficiently.

 

[Aikidoka]

Foreshadowing is fine, especially when it's so subtle that we don't realize it, but you're asking for Euron to outright say he will be at Casterly Rock, something we're not supposed to know. Jaime's whole plan happened off screen so we wouldn't know that Tyrion's was gonna fail.

Um, I just gave a small example that just came to my head as to what would alleviate a problem. I would hope that the trained writers could come up with a more elegant way of foreshadowing over the days of writing the script than what I did in a couple minutes.

edit : my whole point is really that there are simple and more elegant ways of conveying a chronology than flashing "3 weeks later" on the screen

 

[ComputerBlue]

Well if they can reach Essos, that means they'd have to freeze the Narrow Sea. If they could do that, they don't need a wall to stop them right? Just freeze the ocean around it and walk lol. Also, how did that one wright get past the wall in the first season when Benjen can't?

The sea might freeze over after a period of time itself. We definitely don't know.

That one wight was a dead body when it was brought to castle black, it didn't reanimate until it was inside the walls. It wasn't a wight yet.

 

[Fright Zone]

Very divisive season it seems. I'm enjoying it but something definitely feels off.

And the huge chasm in acting skill in this show is really jarring now, some scenes are very well acted (Jaime/Olenna) then some of the younger cast (Dany, Messandei, Bran) are awful. Always been an issue with the show but feels more prevalent now.

And I still can't get with Euron, he just feels so out of place.

 

[The Artisan]

We know the wall was supposedly infused with magical spells. Maybe there was sort of magic holding the WW back that has faded over the centuries, or maybe they've grown stronger and are now overpowering that magic, or both.

benjen said in the last season finale that the magic is still active.

I was down by the end of this episode, but thanks for lifting my spirits.

what got you down?

 

[RDreamer]

Plausibility of the story as a whole, totally agree. But without an intimate knowledge of where certain towns / cities are and how big the world is, I don't think the average viewer cares as much about the time it takes to get somewhere.

Maybe not the average viewer, but when did we just allow shows to cater to the least common denominator and not complain about it? I've seen more complaints about Euron and this season than about most others. And the average viewer probably fell in love with the show back in Season 1-4 where these problems largely weren't happening.

You can hand wave some things and get away with it, but having to hand wave major shit every single episode for quite a few in a row is just terrible writing. I could see having to pick up the pace if viewers were dropping off the show and they needed to get to an end for fear of more dropping off, but that wasn't happening. There's no reason to hand wave shit that could have been in the most popular show on television. It doesn't make sense.

Very divisive season it seems. I'm enjoying it but something definitely feels off.

Only a few episodes and it's the worst season we've had so far for me. 6 was already pretty dodgy, but I was hoping it'd continue in 7 with some of the better parts of 6 since that came off the pretty bad season 5. I just feel the quality dropped off a cliff after season 4 or so.

 

[ersocaster]

The other issue is that same people are hand waving Euron's near miracles fleet speed, by stating that his attack on Yara's fleet happened near Dragonstone. Well that is highly unlikely due to two reasons. The first is that a battle that close to dragonstone would have absolutely attracted the Dragons. They would have been drawn by the fighting, the blood, and the explosions. The second reason is Theon. He is still not back at the Island, yet his uncle is zipping back and forth like his ships are actually running on nuclear power lol.

So if weeks and months are going by, why does it seem like characters who are in the same area are stuck in time? If Theon pulls into Dragonstone next episode, it will blow this time inconsistency out of the water. How are you still out at sea when Jaime marched from KL to Highgarden and Euron has sailed back and forth?

You know that boats can move at different speeds right? It takes skill to navigate the sea. It could take someone like Jon a month to get somewhere that only takes a skilled pirate a week.

It's almost like you want the show to be fair. It's not. Mix in that scenes happen outside of linear time, and it is easy to imagine how people can get around in some ways.

Euron could have sailed for the rock literally the moment his scene at King's Landing ended. Who knows how long it took the Unsullied to get there? It's not like they are from Westeros or have much experience manning large ships.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

They could have omitted Euron's flag ship and had Jaime explain that part of Euron's fleet is wrecking the Unsullied fleet as he was talking to Olenna.

 

[One Eyed Willy]

The speed of the show, of Euron etc.. never bothered me and the timeline doesn't seem unrealistic when I do think about it. GoT has always been bad about displaying elapsed time, and I actually thought the cut from Casterly Rock to High Garden with Jamie was fucking goddamn badass. The oversight on the editing from Greyworm's "Where are the rest of the Lanisters?" to mother fucking Jamie bravado stepping through High Garden was maybe one of the best transitions in the entire series. Also, there was a shot showing Jamie's golden hand for anyone questioning who Ed Sheeran's song was about in EP1. Jorah is now immune to greyscale so clearly he's going back to Valeria to get as much Valerian steel as he chooses.

When I think about all that happened in this single episode, it doesn't make me angry .. it actually makes me question why I tolerated such a slow story arching over 7 seasons for this long. I don't want every episode to be like this, but this was a great change of pace for once.

I'll probably remember this episode over most when it's all said and done.

edit. In the end, my money is still on Tyrion sitting on the throne. John is basically the great distraction IMO, and its a very clever long con.

 

[Sectorseven]

Winter is supposed to be here, are we ever going to see the ramifications of that anywhere besides the North? Shouldn't it at least be chilly in Kings Landing?

 

[The Artisan]

You know that boats can move at different speeds right? It takes skill to navigate the sea. It could take someone like Jon a month to get somewhere that only takes a skilled pirate a week.

It's almost like you want the show to be fair. It's not. Mix in that scenes happen outside of linear time, and it is easy to imagine how people can get around in some ways.

Euron could have sailed for the rock literally the moment his scene at King's Landing ended. Who knows how long it took the Unsullied to get there? It's not like they are from Westeros or have much experience manning large ships.

Someone earlier on in the thread said because of the budget, the pacing is just sped up with Euron getting places quickly; the only way I'll find it to be too ridiculous is, if we compare it to the real world ~Westeros being the size of South America, is Euron getting to these places faster than a modern day ship would get to place? If the answer to that is yes then his armada's speed is indeed ridiculous in my opinion

 

[poppabk]

I'm hoping the ballistas are a complete fail. Hitting a flying dragon with modern guns would be difficult, a massive slow to aim ballista, forget about it. Although somehow I think one of the dragons is going to hover for a long time in just the right spot for them to get hit.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Someone earlier on in the thread said because of the budget, the pacing is just sped up with Euron getting places quickly; the only way I'll find it to be too ridiculous is, if we compare it to the real world ~Westeros being the size of South America, is Euron getting to these places faster than a modern day ship would get to place? If the answer to that is yes then his armada's speed is indeed ridiculous in my opinion

It's also incredibly convenient if the sea and weather itself was not giving his fleet trouble.

 

[wesleyshark]

Faster pacing > plausibility over travel time

This. You just have to accept that unknown amounts of time are happening between scenes and episodes.

 

[FiggyCal]

I'm expecting at least a hundred ballistas. The one we saw was just the prototype. The dragons are fucked tbh.

 

[Future]

This. You just have to accept that unknown amounts of time are happening between scenes and episodes.

Yup. Looks like at the end of every episode, chess pieces will move. This is when the title game of thrones actually is apt. Every episode, conditions change making the characters change their moves. It's fucking fantastic

 

[BumRush]

Maybe not the average viewer, but when did we just allow shows to cater to the least common denominator and not complain about it? I've seen more complaints about Euron and this season than about most others. And the average viewer probably fell in love with the show back in Season 1-4 where these problems largely weren't happening.

You can hand wave some things and get away with it, but having to hand wave major shit every single episode for quite a few in a row is just terrible writing. I could see having to pick up the pace if viewers were dropping off the show and they needed to get to an end for fear of more dropping off, but that wasn't happening. There's no reason to hand wave shit that could have been in the most popular show on television. It doesn't make sense.

Oh, no, I definitely think it's a valid complaint. For me (and I may be in the minority here), I'd rather deal with travel time woes than drawn out monologues getting from point A to point B, especially when only getting an episode a week and 6-7 a year.

This. You just have to accept that unknown amounts of time are happening between scenes and episodes.

Exactly how I feel. Although I understand how it breaks the immersion for some, I am not one of them.

 

[RDreamer]

This. You just have to accept that unknown amounts of time are happening between scenes and episodes.

It's not the time that's the problem. It's time and insane luck. I think people could largely accept time. Time and luck is what's getting everyone pissed. Euron didn't just teleport, he teleported his shit right to where he needed to be, then pissed off the kings landing and then fucking did it again and landed right where and when he needed to be yet again. That's all after the lucks into being leader on the Iron Islands like no one even fucking cared last season. The guy's barely been introduced and wasn't talked about at all before that season and he just completely took over the endgame. There's no insight into him or his methods at all. It's bad writing everywhere. If this dude is this important they needed to build him up and show us what he's doing. Right now he's just a random fucking plot devise.

Oh, no, I definitely think it's a valid complaint. For me (and I may be in the minority here), I'd rather deal with travel time woes than drawn out monologues getting from point A to point B, especially when only getting an episode a week and 6-7 a year.

I think this is where me and others accepting this differ. I've said this in the thread before, but why exactly is 6-7 episodes a year treated like it wasn't their decision? Why is it some natural occurrence that we need 6-7 a year and that's just that. HBO would have wanted more. The fanbase and viewers are there for more. D&D said they didn't want it probably because they want to go do something else instead). You can't excuse bad writing with "Well there are only 6-7 episodes" because that was their decision! The only reason for 6-7 episodes would be if the writing held up for only that amount, and it's pretty clear it isn't.

 

[The Artisan]

It's also incredibly convenient if the sea and weather itself was not giving his fleet trouble.

In this episode didn't seem to affect the Unsullied ships so I can let that convenience slide; but if Euron's ships move faster than modern day ships and boats that have motors then it's too much to suspend believe, even if they have to pick up the pace because of budget

This. You just have to accept that unknown amounts of time are happening between scenes and episodes.

Euron went from King's Landing to Casterly Rock in the same episode, though.

 

[Vashetti]

Winter is supposed to be here, are we ever going to see the ramifications of that anywhere besides the North? Shouldn't it at least be chilly in Kings Landing?

If you notice in the 'map room' scene in episode 1 of this season the overhanging plants above are dying.