Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Re 
ower levels
Jon defeated a fookin' legend, automatically #1
ower levelsJon defeated a fookin' legend, automatically #1
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
- Status
Nameless
Member
Those two fights are related. Tanner taught him the value of fighting dirty and he utilized those tricks against Styr.
The Tanner fight is one of the most impressive displays of Jon's skill IMO as he was at an EXTREME disadvantage going against dual knives with a long sword in a very cramped space. Still he fought Karl to a draw until the spit/trip combo.
Jon and Ghost single handedly changed the tide in courtyard battle and yes, that rolling somersault entrance was spectacular. Would've like to see Jon and Tormund square off as bitter enemies.
Do you think they became EX between season 6 and 7 or something? They dated and broke up long before Game of Thrones was even a thing, their relationship has nothing to do with the amount of screentime either character gets.
ComputerBlue
Member
Such an amazing episode.
Im telling you that a person concerned with looking "honorable" wouldn't. I would. Fuck honor at that point. Jon could swing away til Ramsay's face cave in and his brains spilled out for all I cared.
A lot of people like to dump on Cersei by pointing out that scene where Tywin said she isn't as smart as she thinks she is... but in the context of that scene, she was right and Tywin was wrong. The Tyrells WERE trying to undermine that Lannisters, and like an episode later Tywin realizes this too.
This observation came out of nowhere, but I see people pointing this out every time a Cersei discussion comes up in terms of her strategic ability.
This observation came out of nowhere, but I see people pointing this out every time a Cersei discussion comes up in terms of her strategic ability.
Yeah, a lot of people thinking Cersei is dumb is other characters saying that she is dumb, but she's never actually done anything particularly stupid. Cruel for the sake of it, yeah, but not 'oops i fucked up' dumb.
Cersei says something: "you can't take what Cersei says as gospel"
Tywin says something: "but of course it must be true for he is Tywin"
The only time I think she fucked up real bad was with The High Sparrows but those fuckers tricked EVERYONE, so if Cersei is dumb, then so everyone else is, too.
Yeah, this is the closest she came, she didn't comprehend the thought process of a true religious zealot, assuming he could be compromised like everyone else she'd ever met. Then again, she did learn this eventually (in pretty humiliating fashion) and she outsmarted and eradicated them all in one fell swoop when the moment presented itself.
Robdraggoo
Member
That's pretty rude. Could have nothing to do with her. Regardless they rarely ever shared screen timr together anyway.
Blowing up the sept was reeeaally damn short-sighted and idiotic. The only reason she hasn't already died for it is because of Euron ex machina and Tyrion trying to be too smart for his own good.
Robdraggoo
Member
Well based on last episode no one in kings landing seem to care about the sept, like it never happened. And actively rooting for her.
Doesn't make much sense, but here we are
I don't agree, Dany was coming regardless of the sept blowing up or not, that event has nothing to do with Euron or Tyrion either. When she killed everyone in the sept, she wiped out two of her biggest enemies (high sparrow and margaery - although margaery was largely a self-made enemy) and cleared the way for her to take the throne. Of course, she thought she'd be advising her son without interference again, but that didn't work out, so now she's queen.
Euron, Tyrion, Dany etc have absolutely nothing to do with any of that. If she hadn't done that, she'd just be in a powerless position while Dany plotted against Tommen, the Tyrells and the High Sparrow.
It's not just that. Blowing up the sept turned the remaining Tyrells against the crown. Which should have been a big deal but then they somehow captured Highgarden with barely any losses.
She killed her rivals when she should have been worrying about her enemies. Of course Dany is coming regardless, but Cersei would have had somewhat of a fighting chance instead of this current situation where Euron can do no wrong because the writers have written themselves into a corner.
ComputerBlue
Member
Like Jaime said to Euron, not long ago they were spitting on my sister and if you turn on us, they'll cheer to see your head on a spike.
Really, the people are idiots. Perhaps the cheering is out of fear, but they went from being rather dormant, to wanting to see Ned beheaded to spitting on Joffrey, then following the high sparrow, spitting on Cersei, now loving Cersei. You would think it was out of fear, but there doesn't seem to be any coherent rhyme or reason, they seem all over the place in their actions towards those in power, or whatever is convenient for the story.
Her position before she blew up the sept was marginalised by her own son and disgraced by the public, condemned by the religious fundalmentalists who were corraling all the power in King's Landing around themselves. She essentially had no position, and made an extreme move to level the playing field. Since then, everything she's done has solidified her position - allying with a strong naval force, converting an enemy's military leader to her side, and then destroying that enemy and using its resources to pay off her debts to the bank and ensuring their continued support for the short term at the least. She's also winning the war so far. It won't last, but I don't see how any of these moves can really be considered fuck ups.
Her personal position is irrelevant when the city gets sacked and she get beheaded within a month.
She ensured that that would happen by severing the most important alliance they had. She's only alive because of unbelievable luck and some "creative" writing.
Dead queen vs. king's mother mother who has no real power. I'd take the latter.
Ocarina_117
Banned
I personally hope Jon isn't immune to fire as a result of his resurrection. Revival should come at a cost, not gain.
Ah, the High Sparrow was also all by her own doing. She thought she could create a monster to feast on her enemies, only to have that same monster turn its gaze on her when its appetite grew more ravenous.
"What will we find when we strip away your finery?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxcE2xao2IU
Do you think Dany should have went straight for King's Landing right off the bat, based on how the people there would fall in line once the battle is over?
Sure you can say the writing is bad, I'm not really defending that, but in the context of the show I think I've got the stronger case that Cersei actually knows what she's doing better than people generally say, and that blowing up the Sept seemed has been a successful gambit.
The High Sparrow Boyz were fundie nutjobs who were in the process of making King's Landing a different kind of nightmare, where a lot of behaviour was strictly proscribed, so you can even kind of root for her taking him on - although obviously that isn't why she did it, it was for revenge and to get him the hell out of her life.
She also claims the Sept was an accident, which some people probably believe, at least the idiots who live in King's Landing, so no mass riot - Olenna wouldn't buy that for a second but even if they went to war with the Tyrell's and Tarly was still with them, the Lannisters would probably still win. The Tyrells weren't a mighty military force, their power has largely resided in their wealth.
When you say she would have been beheaded, by who exactly? The Tyrells? They wouldn't have the strength to take over King's Landing and make that happen. The Dornish were already gunning for her anyway, with no movement, not a big threat. Jon is too busy to worry about Cersei and Dany was also coming to take over the country regardless. She killed all the people who might have beheaded her for blowing up the sept by blowing up the sept and killing them all!
What I've been thinking since he came back.
She is responsible for all of that. Margaery tells her let's be friends and sisters, and she rages out on her. She then tries crawling her way back to Marg's good graces, and when she overhears Marg and her hand maidens giggling, she decides that she's going to rearm ISIS and use them to destroy the Tyrells. She's a fucking lunatic who gets fucked by her own traps.
Robdraggoo
Member
Lol pretty much. She could have set half the city ablaze with Dragon fire, and the survivors would be cool with it.
Yeah she is a lunatic, but I mentioned the situation she was in to say that blowing up the Sept wasn't a mistake given the situation she was in, which the guy I was responding to said it was by leaving her in a weaker position - I don't see how it didn't leave her in a much better position, excluding Tommen's suicide in response.
The High Sparrow stuff is I guess a fuck up on her part, I had forgotten she was egging him on initially, but she won in the end. My point isn't that she's a smart and good leader, it's that she's a smart and terrible leader. She isn't completely inhuman, but she is extremely vindictive and cruel. That doesn't mean she can't win every single fight she finds herself in, because Westeros is an ugly shithole of a country where cruelty is pretty much the law. I think right now she's probably more capable than she's ever been because now she is focusing simply on domination, and doesn't have anything left to protect except herself (and, I guess, Jamie, but I'm sure she'd continue on without him).
*Half of King's Landing is on fire due to a combination of Cersei using wild fire and Dany's dragons not giving a fuck. But the battle has been won, Cersei is dead, and the Iron Throne is back in the hands of House Targaryen*
"Everything you see destroyed; every life that has been lost, every woman widowed, every child made orphaned, all of the blame for it lies squarely at the feet of the sinister and evil false queen I have liberated you all from!"
*Citizens of King's Landing*
By Dany. She should have already been beheaded (or maybe burned alive) by Dany. That's my whole point, she should have had absolutely no chance once the Tyrells turned from the biggest ally to one of the enemies.
Blowing the sept has sort of worked out for he so far, but that has been by sheer dumb luck, not by foresight or intelligence.
ComputerBlue
Member
Yeah I think so.
They definitely would fall in line. Too bad her whole thing is to claim what is rightfully hers and not conquer. You can take it by force and still show the people you've got good intentions because it's really not how you take it, it's what you do with it once it's yours. There will be casualties regardless.
They fucked up, all of them. Dany, Tyrion etc.
They should have grouped up at Dragonstone, gotten in a bit of rest and attacked. Now they're split up with plenty of losses.
She didn't just egg them on, she rearmed them and give them political power and the ear of the King. She essentially went to a smelly old fart running a food kitchen and went, "wouldn't it be great if you guys were militarised?! Huh?! Huh?!"
"Perhaps the gods need a sword of their own?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDctlPybUps
Cersie blowing up the Sept was an amazing thing to watch unfold, and brilliant power move on her part. But let's not act as if Cersei wasn't 100% responsible for things escalating to the point where she needed to activate the nuclear option. It's like Trump having the US invade a country because they made fun of him, getting the US stuck in an unwinnable quagmire, blowing the place up as last resort, and then going, "well I had no choice!"
It wasn't.
This is exactly the sort of short-sighted thinking that lead her to that idiotic decision.
What's the point of becoming the queen when you massively hurt you own side in a war where you're already the underdog?
ComputerBlue
Member
We all anticipate the triumphant return of Jorah Fedora, dude will set them on a proper course.
I just don't see how it is dumb luck. The first thing she did this season was ally with Euron - she invited him to King's Landing because she knew she needed more support, so she got some. He's turned out to be very useful. Then, she apparently accurately predicted that Dany would attack Casterly Rock first, a place of minimal strategic significance, so she took that moment while her biggest threat was distracted to take out one of Dany's allies and also make herself rich again, ensuring she could maintain support of the Iron Bank so that they wouldn't turn to Dany or someone else as their chosen leader. Meanwhile, her military commander Jamie had ensured that the latter would be an even easier job by taking one of the Tyrell's military leaders and his men away from them and having them ally with Cersei.
These are all smart moves that don't really have anything to do with luck. Whether she had any of this planned when she blew up the Sept isn't really relevant - at that point she was pushed into a corner and, since power is the most important thing to her, did the most meaningful thing she could do to clear the way to regain it. Since then, she's been getting stronger with every move she makes.
It is incredible how with all the brain power and sneakiness of Tyrion, the spy capabilities of Varys, and the Ironborn Greyjoys, that Tyrion's master plan never accounted for Euron Greyjoy. He wasn't even a piece on the map in the second season. How exactly did Yara forget that she has a lunatic uncle who has an armada just waiting to be used? How did that conversation not come up? "Hey so my murderous uncle has like a thousand ships, should we be worried about that Tyrion?" I just realised, that Tyrion planned for the Unsullied to sail near the Iron Islands to get to Casterly Rock. WTF is going on here? It gets even more ridiculous the more you think about it. "Hey we're going to be sailing these ships near your home base, what's your uncle's capabilities like?...oh that many?...well fuck!"
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because she took his armada in the last season and didn't expect Euron Greyjoy to do the GoT equivalent of this in such a short time.
In the context of the show being nonsensical, yes, it was a masterstroke. If the show made any kind of sense, there is no way she would rally everyone around her by simply murdering the most important people of every house still loyal to her, while losing her last allies. It's as if Robb Stark had beheaded the head of every single one of his bannermen instead of just Kastark, with some women and children thrown in for fun, and somehow ended up stronger than before.
Not only did she murder close family members of all the people she needs to rule, at the same time she made her family's position a lot weaker by being completely surrounded by enemies. Now everyone should hate her, and they have no reason to fear her. Somehow, despite murdering her own uncle, the head of the Lannister armies, she managed to become the first queen of all time, because what the hell, since everyone was dead people just started supporting her for shits and giggles. Why not simply wait a month for her brother, who is a man and much better loved than her? We will never know.
The only thing that she had for her is the mountain, but I somehow doubt that he can make a whole city/kingdom submit by himself.
Are you for real? Margery and the Tyrells were never her friends. From the very beginning they've been gunning for a position at the top. It's actually a credit to Cersei that she could see that. Margaery is fake and so is her grandma. They can smile to her face and then plot to murder one son and manipulate the other behind her back. Cersei was right to distrust the Tyrells, she was wrong to trust the High Sparrow. Good thing she solved both problems in the S6 finale.
Yes it was. They were going to kill her if she went to trial. Was the alternative to run? Then what would she be left with? At that point, she may as well have been dead.
And you guys are pretending there are plot holes where there are none.
The people of Kings Landing are stupid and are easily scared into submission. With Gregor killing people who merely talk shit about Cersei, and Qyburn's network of spies, it was easy to keep them in line.
The Tyrells are valuable allies sure, but they're basically a piggy bank with a lot of food defended by wimpy fighters. They'd be easy to sack, and lo and behold, they were.
And Cersei isn't winning (so far) out of dumb luck, she's winning because she's playing the game better than her enemies are. They're showing restraint, while she's securing allies and delegating military strategy to Jaime, who we know has a good mind for warfare. You guys are just like Olenna, you have a failure in imagination.
The Lannisters would have had Euron anyway. The Tyrells wouldn't have been an enemy to destroy, they would have been allies. Everything you mention would have been better and easier if she hadn't blown up the sept.
She didn't take his armada, she took some of their fastest ships.
Habaneroguy
Member
Jorah Fedora omg lol...
"M'Khaleesi"
Ok, Jamie has to get a clue eventually. Maybe Olenna is what gets the wheels in his head spinning. Littlefinger is doomed as far as I can tell, between Bran, and Arya. The whole thing about LF is that he knows everything, and can be who he needs to be at any given time for maneuvering purposes. Too bad Bran and Arya are gonna outclass him. Bran knows all, and Arya can literally be anyone.
What I wrote actually did happen on screen. Margaery calls her sister and she flips on her. A season later, Cersei tries to smooth things over with Marg, but feels insulted by comments Marg makes, and the giggling she hears at the door. Margaery was already at the top position by virtue of being the Queen. Cersei couldn't stand that. Cersie even tries to worm her way back to Lady Olenna, talking about how they have to stick together to protect their families. To which Lady Olenna pretty much tells her, "bitch my family is in this predicament because of you! ISIS is now running these streets because of you! Get fucked you stupid woman!"
I'm pretty sure they weren't going to kill her. If it was made clear in the show that they would, I missed it. Letting her go at all if they're just going to kill her a bit later would be very dumb.
For fucking her cousin and possible King slaying charges (you know that would have been a last minute swerve that Lancel would confess to)? Yeah she would have been executed.
She took quite a gamble by assuming her son wouldn't have her executed for treason, but I suppose she knew Tommen was too kind-hearted and weak-willed to do such a thing.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Oh I assumed they said they took most of their ships. Yea that's a pretty bad idea to not inform them of Euron then.
Nope, Euron would never have tried to side with Cersei if she was a sidelined irrelevance, and Tommen wouldn't have anything to do with him because the High Sparrow would probably have imprisoned the guy the second he stepped foot in the city. Cersei would have no case to make with him.
The Tyrells hated Cersei and were strategically (thought margaery) aligning with the High Sparrow which had the effect of freezing Cersei out, and they would have eventually come for Jamie because he was also guilty of incest, so she would be pretty much entirely alone in terms of powerful friends. The Lannisters were being supplanted by religious zealots as the driving force behind King's Landing politics. The Tyrells were 'allies' militarily, but in a political sense they and Cersei were already enemies fucking each other over as much as possible. Olenna had killed a Lannister king years before - sure, it was Joffrey, but that's no ally move. In Cersei's mind, she didn't need the Tyrells, but she knew she needed their money. Now she's got their money and the Tyrells are gone, perfect for her.
Her options at the time of the Sept were a) sit around doing nothing until she really was helpless b) take an opportunity to kill them all and see if she could get control back.
- Status