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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
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I'm not doubting that those things happened on the show, I'm saying Cersei is right to distrust the Tyrells. She didn't have a lot of direct evidence, but her instincts say that they're snakes, and ya, she's right. They killed one of her sons and manipulated another. She can't prove that they're treacherous bastards, but she's right to think that way. The scene with Margaery giggling with her handmaid's was just to reinforce what she always knew deep down: She. Is. A. Snake.
Cersei had her manservant tear off one of their people's head on top of all the other shit they charged her with. They wanna do the whole song and dance of giving her a "fair" trial, but they saw her as an enemy to be humiliated, broken, and ultimately disposed of. If they weren't going to kill her (which they definitely were), they sure as hell would have incapacitated her indefinitely. The point is, Cersei was left with 3 options:
1. Run.
2. Go to trial and see what happens.
3. Kill them all and sort out the rest later.
3 is the best option from a self-preservation stand point, and so far it's been working out fine since she did all the necessary steps. She controls KL with fear and Qyburn's birds/Gregor killing dissenters. She had Jaime devise a way to sack Highgarden and take their gold. She secured an alliance with a damn good captain and is actually giving Dany some trouble.
Where would she be if she picked either of the first 2 options?
Seductivpancakes
Member
I doubt they would have killed Cersei. Formal queen and mother of the current king. They would have kept her confined in her room or in the sept praying her sins away.
Still, killing them all was her best option seeing as she has no where to go, and submitting isn't in her character. Yeah she probably knows shes gonna have to fight the Tyrells, ane militarily, the Lannister army is still quite formidable as we saw last episode. I don't think she knew Ramsey was gonna get fucked before she went with her plan, so in her mind, the North wouldn't interfer.
It also happens to work in her favor seeing as the Tyrells are incompetent without Tarly.
Still, killing them all was her best option seeing as she has no where to go, and submitting isn't in her character. Yeah she probably knows shes gonna have to fight the Tyrells, ane militarily, the Lannister army is still quite formidable as we saw last episode. I don't think she knew Ramsey was gonna get fucked before she went with her plan, so in her mind, the North wouldn't interfer.
It also happens to work in her favor seeing as the Tyrells are incompetent without Tarly.
And the former is by far the better move since the latter royally screws over everyone on your side. You have to take into consideration that the sept was blown up a in situation where an invasion was being launched by a far larger army. That's absolutely not a time cripple your side for personal gain. That's suicide.
Everything has gone (unreasonably) perfectly for her since then so her actions haven't caught up to her yet.
Well that's quite a hole she's dug for herself in all her wisdom. Running is probably the smartest bet. I still don't think they would have killed her, but she could have just returned to Casterly Rock. Even that is better than what she chose to do which should have lead to her demise already.
You're retroactively justifying the (stupid) decision made by a character, using the really transparent (and unbelievable) plot twists that the show creators had to introduce afterwards so that the entire story wouldn't collapse.
I very much doubt that Cersei had seen before murdering all the nobles in King's landing that Randall Tarly would gladly decide to take on three dragons for her, and that it would somehow make one of the strongest house in the kingdom crumble like a pile of cards.
Seductivpancakes
Member
How is killing all your enemies stupid?
The Queen Snake will always be on the lookout for other potential snakes, after all. Margaery was beginning to out-snake her at her own game, so Cersei showed her true fangs.
Exactly.
In any reasonable scenario crippling the crown the way she did would have completely removed any hope the Lannisters had left.
It's just that Game of Thrones still needed conflict so here comes Euron who literally cannot fail and perfectly unravels any plans their enemies have.
*All your allies
(you might hate them and they might hate you but you're still together against the invaders)
Because she also killed all of her allies. She didn't even have support in her own family's army, since her uncle leading the army openly despised and humiliated her, and at some point lannister soldiers almost came to blow with the moutain.
It looks like it makes sense for all the Lannister people to rally around her, because they're just faceless goons and the show never took the time to show other Lannisters, but in reality there would still be people leading the army, and they would have every reason to hate and despise her.
Seductivpancakes
Member
good point, but at thay point she didn't have any allies. She's on the brink of losing it all cause her allies left her to hang. She even lost the affections of her only remaining child (to her at least).
The oddity that Randyll Tarly would be perfectly fine with the murder of his liege lord and his children is remarkable. Even the idea that he would accept a summon to KL is highly irregular. Imagine if the Northern lords were summoned to KL after Ned's execution and some of them went?
"We're not oathbreakers!"
Yeah you kinda are Randyll. Cersei not only killed your liege lord, she also killed your queen. The more you think about these past episodes, the more they break the logic already established in the show.
"When my queen summons me..."
Your "queen" killed your other queen and the lord you're sworn to Randyll, what the fuck are you talking about? It's like NATO you piece of shit. Olenna declared Article 5 and you went all Trump on her. Jesus it is like the current fuckery that's going on in the real world isn't it? Cersie Putin just helped Tarlyget elected conquer the Reach.
"We're not oathbreakers!"
Yeah you kinda are Randyll. Cersei not only killed your liege lord, she also killed your queen. The more you think about these past episodes, the more they break the logic already established in the show.
"When my queen summons me..."
Your "queen" killed your other queen and the lord you're sworn to Randyll, what the fuck are you talking about? It's like NATO you piece of shit. Olenna declared Article 5 and you went all Trump on her. Jesus it is like the current fuckery that's going on in the real world isn't it? Cersie Putin just helped Tarly
Seductivpancakes
Member
He hates immigrants more than being called a oath breaker lol
I mean, the show itself went to great lengths to point out that Cersei is not the sharpest tool, and that she's only looking for short-term revenge even if it costs her family everything. It's pretty much been the theme of the last two or three seasons, with her own father pretty much calling her a fool and her brother having to point out to her that it's usually not a good military strategy to be surrounded from all sides.
So it's a bit strange that people are suddenly hailing her as a strategic genius.
So it's a bit strange that people are suddenly hailing her as a strategic genius.
He shouldn't have even been down there. Your liege lord just got murdered by the Queen who is summoning you, and you go. Your queen was also murdered by the woman issuing you these summons, and yet you still go. This guy was an oathbreaker the moment he left for King's Landing. Probably even before that.
Didn't say Cersei had some great wisdom, and it 100% isn't in her character to run away and hide within the walls of Casterly Rock.
It isn't, but people like being really selective at what they consider "realistic" because of personal biases. Dany can go throughout the series, never fail, transform entire civilizations with next to no repercussions and no one will say a word. Jon Snow should have died 20 times in the Battle of the Bastards but that plot contrivance is somehow more acceptable.
Cersei being alive right now is too hard for some people to fathom, when even in real life, monarchs and dictators who have done worse have a submissive population that make no retaliation. The truth is, what happened in King's Landing and the aftermath isn't even close to the biggest contrivance the show had.
Here's the thing: Every long running serialized drama ever runs on strange coincidences and certain things happening in a favourable order for certain characters in order to get the plot moving from one end to another. Obviously they vary in scale, but ultimately, contrivances reside where people believe they reside. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall.
Which given today's social climate is... more than a little believable.
1. No one is saying she's a strategic genius. It's more that she's driven and has a certain degree of cunning. She has her brother making the actual strategic battle decision, she just knew who to get and where to point them too.
2. Her dad told her she's not as smart as she thinks she is... in a conversation where she's 100% right and he was wrong. Think of the context of the scene, the Tyrells really were trying to undermine them, and he realizes this too one episode later.
3. The show hasn't gone to great lengths to show that she's a moron, that's just your interpretation because you filter the show through personal biases that already existed for you. She's hotheaded and impulsive, but she's never been an idiot. She killed a king and got away with it, she had the foresight to develop Wildfire for the battle of Blackwater, she successfully killed all her enemies of King's Landing and controls it through fear.
I'm not even arguing that Cersei is some master strategist, she's incredibly paranoid and often gets in her own way, but she sure as hell not a moron like half the fanbase thinks she is.
Nameless
Member
True, she did originally empower the High Sparrow, but Margaery is the one who went a step further gave him Tommen, and by extension Royal authority. He then used that increased influence to have Jaime dismissed and sent away, trial by combat banned, and Cersei stand trial in the the ways of old -- all of which backed her into a corner.
If Margaery didn't make that play, there's no reason to believe the Lannister/Tyrell plan to remove the Faith Militant by force wouldn't have worked and there's no reason for Cersei to blow up the Sept .
No, it's just bad writing, because the show is now openly incoherent with itself.
Robb Stark beheads one Karstark, loses half his army. Alenna Tyrell allies herself with a Tragaryen (which the Tyrell supported, with all their bannermen, during Robert's revolt by the way) to kill the woman that murdered her family, somehow loses all her bannermen and gets crushed. Cersei literally murders the heads of every one of her family's allies, and their close families, and somehow keeps their alliegance, thanks to a gang of knife-wielding 12-year-olds. Mind you, most of these nobles actually do not live in King's Landing at all, and she murdered all the hostages that she had.
Much of the show is based on how difficult it is to take castles, unless you use stratagems to get inside. Moat Cailin holds for a year with a handful of ironborns, and Jaime is unable to take Riverrun defended by a few hundred Tully soldiers. You get endless monologues about the legendary castles and how they've never ever fallen, and the castle of one of the strongest house in the kingdom just falls in a day without explanation.
The whole show builds up the Tyrell as a really powerful house, but now they're wimps because roses lol. The ironborn are portrayed as useless soldiers only good for plundering, but suddenly they're owning everyone.
Then you add up everything else, Daenerys locking her dragons in dragonstone just because, Yara Greyjoy being useless, Euron somehow finding enough wood to build a thousand ships, Tyrion being an idiot, the Tyrell somehow not spotting a huge army coming all the way to their home castle, and so on so forth.
I think of all the things people have been complaining about this season, this is what bothered me the most.
The People of Kings Landing should be furious and upset and Cersei for what she has done and for what she has always been. And as Jamie mentioned they were just spitting on her a few months before.
The crowd/mob can be used as a narrator for the viewer to see how bad she is as a ruler, how bad the city is now, and how terrible they all have it. But judging from the limited exposure to the people of Kings Landing throughout the whole series, no one seems to be all that affected or bothered by whoever is the ruler. Even when they have just blown up a huge chunk of it, including the religious leaders the rest of the city follows.
Nameless
Member
Good post. Tyrion has many many more dumb moves than Cersei. And his crowning achievement, The Battle of The Blackwater, was mostly due to her foresight in manufacturing Wildfire.
The dumbest thing she's done so far was dropping her guard and underestimating the High Sparrow. The original plan worked as intended.
OR, on the flipside, the people of King's Landing know they're dealing with a fucking maniac and would prefer not to get on her bad side.
It's not as if anyone respects her, but they certainly fear her.
Nameless
Member
The people in King's Landing have always been fickle. They literally went from throwing actual shit at Joffrey to cheering him just because he was standing next to Margaery. Tywin sacked the city for Robert, killing, raping, stealing etc... and the common folk accepted it and moved on. They're common folk -- little more than sheep with no influence, what do you expect them to do?
The Artisan
Member
I think the King's Landing population are just a bunch of idiots who don't deserve saving. Tyrion keeps trying to prevent Dany from killing them all but perhaps they are the least innocent common folk community in Westeros.
Yes I know and I meant they haven't been used properly throughout the show/series.
Ya, it was a team effort. Cersei came up with the idea, but Tyrion came up with the smart application.
The Lords side with Cersei because the Tyrells sided with foreigners from a different land. It isn't just the Targs, they're bringing Unsullied and a horde of Dothraki. If Robb killed the Carstark head because he swore allegiance to a Dothraki horde coming into Kings Landing after they let Jaime go, do you think they'd be as eager to leave? Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing. Cersei and Jaime's whole strategy was playing on that and it worked. It's believable if you're willing to accept that these people are that afraid of foreigners.
The Ironborn aren't even owning everyone. They're owning other ironborn commanded by an inferior captain. And then they took down barely manned ships attacked from behind. They've only had 2 successful attacks, it's obviously not going to last forever.
The Tyrell were built as powerful because of their money and resources, never because of their fighting forces. The idea that they'd lose to a Lannister force manned by Jaime Lannister is easy to believe.
The show has explained several times why Dany hasn't used dragons so far.
And judging by the preview, it looks like she's busting them out next episode anyways.
Robdraggoo
Member
At the end of last season I was hoping Danny wouldn't go mad queen and destroy the city, now I'm like fuck em, they deserve what they get. Lol
Yep. We never got a sense of how many bannermen defected with him and how many soldiers that left the Tyrells with.
Nah. Her plan would have been disastrous. He salvaged it with a brilliant move that decimated the Stannis fleet. She really shouldn't be given any credit for that.
Nah. Her plan would have been disastrous. He salvaged it with a brilliant move that decimated the Stannis fleet. She really shouldn't be given any credit for that.
I mean, obviously if you take all the explanations given by the show creators at face value, it will make sense in your head. No matter how many times they explain that Daenerys just decides to stay in dragonstone playing bridge with her dragons so that she won't upset anyone, all the while sending letters everywhere gloating about them and her hordes of Dothrakis, it will never start making sense. And now that she lost just enough power that we're getting a fight again, she's going to use them? How convenient.
Especially given it was Tyrion's idea that directly led to his son's death.
The Unsullied and Dothraki are a forgein invasion force, not immigrants.
There would be no wildfire if it weren't for her and Stannis would be sitting on the Iron Throne. Give her credit or don't, that much will always be true.
Eh, let's agree to disagree. The show's team has said she's doing that because Dragonstone holds emotional significance to her and she wants to win without having to kill too many people. That seems like it'll change soon with her unleashing her dragons, and the arc they're trying to sell is that she going to stop being a sheep and become a dragon like Olenna said. If that seems unconvincing to a lot of people, that's a failure on the show's part for not selling it well enough.
Margaery was still imprisoned when the Tyrells did there show of force move (still the most badass display of military power in the show). I thought Tommen was already having the High Sparrow influencing his decisions before the bit where Marg got freed. Hell it even looked like she was surprised when Tommen showed up.
This will never not be spectacular.
They are truly the most fickle and most simple minded of people.
Why would the Lannister's trust a man who breaks faith with the house whose lord he was sworn to and joined the guys that killed him?
It's like nukes. You don't exactly have them to use but to poster with. The mentioning of the dragons and the Dothraki is to stop ideas of fighting back dead in their tracks.
Ok, but what exactly is stopping her from just riding them around, scaring the shit out of everyone, scouting enemy armies/fleet and disrupting troop movements/supplies? She basically has an air force during the middle ages.
The Tyrells could probably send her a raven and she'd be there in a couple of hours to save their bacon.
But ok, I'll shut up now.
No that's a solid point. They explained it last episode with the whole she could be shot with an arrow, which begs the question why they couldn't just have her wear armour. But I don't see why she couldn't go on diplomatic missions to the North, to the Vale, to the Riverlands, etc. Show the people that Daenerys Targaryen is here, and she isn't about raping and pillaging. Now there's the risk that someone might get adventures and try killing a lone Queen, but I doubt the North rolls like that if she came by herself and just wanted to talk. What's funny is that no one has ever bothered to teach or request Dany learn to use a sword. How do they expect her to defend herself if she loses her guards and Drogon isn't there to help her? She needs to enroll in that class Brianne is teaching lol. Bet she learns quicker than Pod hehe.
It can be argued that the Dothraki are indeed immigrants due to the fact that they aren't heading back to Essos after everything is done. They've come to Westeros with Dany as their Khal. They are all her people and her Khalasar. Plus, the First Men and the Andals were all invading immigrants, as were the Rhynor. So give it a few centuries and monarchs in Westeros will start adding, "...and of the Dothraki" to their title lists lol.
Gnn, just one last post. It didn't seem to bother her when she took out the masters' entire navy by herself, not to mention that she could wear armor like Heshinsi said, and she doesn't even need to come close enough to be in the range of a bow.
Mate, seriously? To be fair she only concentrated on one ship, but come on haha. I still don't get why she doesn't armour up. Someone get her some protection asap.
ersocaster
Member
It's not too hard to believe that people would be upset that a foreign force was going to occupy your land.
It's also not hard to believe that, lacking other options, Dany decides to use her dragons. It's almost like you're just looking for something to complain about.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I was trying to think about what could be the spark that ignites tension and animosity between Jaime and Cersei, and I think the next episode could be the start.
I think Dany and Drogon are going to torch the hell out of the Lannister forces returning home from Highgarden and they'll lose possession of the gold and all of their victory spoils they retrieved. Jaime will return home without any gold, and Cersei will be incensed and blame Jaime for everything even though his strategy won them the battle at Highgarden, Cersei won't care. Maybe she has sex with Euron just to spite Jaime or something too. But either way, I think this will start the rift between Cersei and Jaime, ruin their alliance with Braavos, and everything goes down hill from there.
I think Dany and Drogon are going to torch the hell out of the Lannister forces returning home from Highgarden and they'll lose possession of the gold and all of their victory spoils they retrieved. Jaime will return home without any gold, and Cersei will be incensed and blame Jaime for everything even though his strategy won them the battle at Highgarden, Cersei won't care. Maybe she has sex with Euron just to spite Jaime or something too. But either way, I think this will start the rift between Cersei and Jaime, ruin their alliance with Braavos, and everything goes down hill from there.
Seductivpancakes
Member
She had no allies when that plan was concocted. They left her to face a trial which she could not have gotten out of unscathed and any sort of power left. Tommen would have been under Tyrell sway and the Lannisters out of the picture.
Realistically, the rank and file went with the winners and she was the last one standing. The people leading Lannister soldiers would be loyal to Lannister family and she and Jaime are the direct children and heirs to Tywin.
Very insightful comment here. I think it would have been more interesting if Dany had found more allies from people who supported Taragryans in Robert's Rebellion. Instead, Dany is basically a tyrant and a conquerer - these people don't want her to be queen. It's not just bad from a storytelling perspective (we missed out on an interesting dynamic) it's also, as you pointed out, incoherent from the history and logic that the show itself has presented.
I'm extremely disappointed by the last two episodes. It's surprisingly awful.
Seductivpancakes
Member
This scene is why i was excited to see the Tyrells march into battle this season.Margaery was still imprisoned when the Tyrells did there show of force move (still the most badass display of military power in the show). I thought Tommen was already having the High Sparrow influencing his decisions before the bit where Marg got freed. Hell it even looked like she was surprised when Tommen showed up.
This will never not be spectacular.
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