• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Absolutely nothing we've seen has shown that Daenerys is turning into Aerys. You guys realize he was called the Mad King because he was insane and not because he was angry, right?

I Just dont imagine the people like having dragons around. And besides, Dany has mentioned feeding/burning people for crossing her. Im sure that kind of punishment is looked down upon, especially after seeing the lannister army charred and burned

She can claim to be a good ruler, but its clear that civilians wont care for the dothraki raping savages. Like Jon said, shed just be the same old shit, just a different person

And dany seems very hell bent on being different, a lot so because she lives under her dads shadow. I think its a lose-lose for her in that sense

Besides, the show already teases that her advisors are constantly wary when she tries to stray from their planning because her answer involves "drop the nukes"
 
Bigger picture

Danny in the past has shown signs of potentially going a little too far to extremes when dealing with admittedly bad people. And if she didn't have her council of advisers in place she likely would have went way too far already. The shit that Cersei was saying about her in the Throne Room was Fox News'd a little but wasn't exactly a lie. She's starting to ignore her own council again. In this episode she wanted to take her dragons directly to the Red Keep and burn the entire place down simply because her ego was bruised from taking a couple of losses, and needed multiple people to talk her down from doing that. Instead of taking her dragons directly to Kings Landing and scorching the Red Keep, she took her dragons directly too a food supply chain that both her forces and the average people of Westeros needed in order to survive.

What Danny did was impulsive and incredibly short sighted because what she did is almost certainly going to affect the general people of Westeros way more than it's going to affect Danny or Cersei or their respective forces. Everyday people that Danny is trying to liberate are now going to potentially starve and suffer because Danny wanted to heal her bruised ego. That makes it sure seem like she's got more of her father in her than she wants to realize.

They were always planning on besieging King's Landing long before they stole those supplies, so what exactly did you think that entails?

Why this is being brought up when there's Cersei sitting on the Iron Throne, who I don't think would hesitate to burn it to the ground, is beyond me.

Now that I think of it, I feel for Sansa. Bran is back and is a depressing loony, Arya is back and is a cheerful crazy.

Yeah, she got her family back but not really.
 

Jezbollah

Member
nah right before the battle, Old Man Tarly gave word to Jaime that gold arrived in KL

Daeny fucked up although I suppose this is better then burning cities

No. The gold was already back in King's Landing (as it was rushed back due to its importance) by the time this ambush took place. Daenerys burnt the food from the farms around High Garden and a lot of the Lannister's soldiers.

Thanks :)
 

molnizzle

Member
I mean, yeah, it was revenge but it was also the law.

Two seconds later he broke that law by walking away from the Night's Watch. He pretended to still be bound by his oath for just long enough to kill those who had crossed him. It was revenge, pure and simple.

You can't judge anyone on this show by our modern standards of morality. This is medieval fantasy, lives just aren't worth as much.
 

Ithil

Member
What the show didn't reveal yet is that drawing all of those paintings in the cave was precisely what Davos and Jon had been doing during their free time on Dragonstone.

Davos: "Pardon me yer Majesty, I'm not much of a carver, all I can do is these spirals"

Jon: "I'll handle the Walker carvings, you keep up with that"

Davos: "Did you know there's a direct correlation between the decline in cave spirals and the rise in Walker activity? Think about it"

Jon: "Ah, sure Davos, I will"

Davos: "...no you won't"
 

Eidan

Member
I Just dont imagine the people like having dragons around. And besides, Dany has mentioned feeding/burning people for crossing her. Im sure that kind of punishment is looked down upon, especially after seeing the lannister army charred and burned

She can claim to be a good ruler, but its clear that civilians wont care for the dothraki raping savages. Like Jon said, shed just be the same old shit, just a different person

And dany seems very hell bent on being different, a lot so because she lives under her dads shadow. I think its a lose-lose for her in that sense

Besides, the show already teases that her advisors are constantly wary when she tries to stray from their planning because her answer involves "drop the nukes"

And again, none of that makes her insane. It makes her an invading conqueror whose only "right" to the throne was her use of force and the fact that she had three dragons. Just like Aegon.
 
Its been so long that I can' t remember the context, but does anyone know why Jon was made at Reek??

reek invaded winterfell and proclaimed to have killed his two brothers by burning them as they hanged.

Unless something else happened, idk. that's my guess.
 

hawk2025

Member
Some of y'all apply 2017 humane war ethics to Danny, and medieval ethics to everyone else.

I don't get it.

There isn't a single character in this show that wouldn't use dragons in the battlefield against an army. Not a single one.
 

Sephzilla

Member
While I agree that Daenerys is not as bad as Cersei, and an argument to that affect can certainly not be made, viewing Daenerys as a positive force (which she has purposely been portrayed as) is just being purposely blind to what exactly Daenerys quest actually entails. She kills her enemies through incredibly brutal means (crucifixions, and burning them alive) as Cersei does (Cersei, of course, is far more brutal) and has no compassion for those who stand against her. Her goal from the very beginning has been to conquer a continent and slaughter her enemies simply because she believes she's entitled to rule them, but still wants them to love her in spite of this. She's not a very good ruler (as we see in Slaver's Bay) and even knowing the war that's to come she still insists in squabbling over the Iron Throne and puts Jon's unwillingness to bow before her over protecting the seven kingdoms she wishes to rule. If she fails diplomacy she is unwilling to compromise and instead simply burns her enemies alive. She doesn't try to give those in Westeros a reason to follow her, or a reason to love her, she simply demands it of them. Those who follow her consist of a horde of Dothraki (who have no choice but to follow her as she murdered their leaders, an army of Unsullied who knew nothing other than fighting and had nowhere else to go (and are in a situation where leaving means defying the individual they just saw burn the city; as Jon points out to Missandei, they're not truly free, they're just serving a different master), and people joining her simply because they hate the current individuals in power more. Yes she listens to some of her advisors to not burn down King's Landing, and to give Jon the ability to mine dragon glass, but if others in Westerns won't bow before her, how merciful will she truly be to them?

Daenerys comes across as good because those she faces are monstrous and (have been previously) relatively nameless, she has nice ideas and doesn't naturally want to incite violence (she just does it anyway) or kill civilians, her victories are portrayed very heroically and in an uplifting manner in the show, she's staunchly against the idea of slavery (but is still totally okay with ruling over others simply because her name is Daenerys Targaryen), and came from absolutely horrible beginnings which she managed to turn into what she has now.

The meeting with Jon very starkly contrasts him with Daenerys, and it's not accidental. Both of them have given freedom to others (the Wildlings and slaves), both can argue they have a right to a kingdom (the north, and the seven kingdoms), both have encountered some seemingly monstrous and savage people, but their attitude is entirely different, and Jon is in many ways what Daenerys aspires to be, rather than who she actually is thus far. He doesn't rule because he's entitled to it, or because he wants to do it, he does it because those around him respect him as a ruler, and if others wish to walk they can walk (and still have somewhere to go) and won't be executed or burnt because of it. He doesn't try to destroy or give brutal deaths to any who have defied or opposed him (Wildlings), and doesn't simply kill them as soon as democracy has failed (Mance, the defectors in the Night's Watch prior to their killing him). He doesn't wear his titles as a point of pride to try and leave others in awe of him. He simply wants to protect the realm from a substantial evil (as far as we know thus far).

None of this is to say that Daenerys is inherently bad, or is an incredibly evil person, it's clearly much more complicated than that as the season has thus far revolved around the internal conflict of her wanting to be loved and inspired by the citizens of Westerns and accepting her role as a conquerer (and a dragon; something especially relevant in a season where people have gained strength in accepting and drawing from who they are), but it isn't tough to see why people can legitimately argue that Daenerys is not the shining beacon she has been portrayed as up to this point.

Wanted to give some love to this post.

Danny looks more heroic/positive when she's kept off in a vacuum outside of Westeros, but when she actually comes across the sea and actually gets 1:1 contrasted with someone like Jon Snow you suddenly start seeing that she's not the great positive force she sets out to be.

Plus I think actually making it back to Westeros has given Danny a bit of entitlement considering she's now full on "everything here is mine now please bow to me and be obedient".

Two seconds later he broke that law by walking away from the Night's Watch. He pretended to still be bound by his oath for just long enough to kill those who had crossed him. It was revenge, pure and simple.

You can't judge anyone on this show by our modern standards of morality. This is medieval fantasy, lives just aren't worth as much.

I mean, Jon technically did give is life for the Nights Watch which thus fulfilled his duty to them so I guess he had the option to leave at any point after that. I'm assuming The Black doesn't have any fine print about protocol regarding resurrection.
 
He betrayed the Starks and took over Winterfell before the Boltons arrived

Yeah, Robb sent him to get support from the Iron Isle during the War of the Five Kings, and instead, Theon decided to attempt to reclaim his birthright, and took a crew of Ironborn to take Winterfell. He also killed the Maester, and at the time said he killed Brann and Rickon as well.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Some of y'all apply 2017 humane war ethics to Danny, and medieval ethics to everyone else.

I don't get it.

There isn't a single character in this show tha wouldn't use dragons in the battlefield against an army. Not a single one.
And only on her. The Lannister army that just sacked High Garden and plundered it are now, "just some defenceless boys doing what they're told!"
 

Eidan

Member
Some of y'all apply 2017 humane war ethics to Danny, and medieval ethics to everyone else.

I don't get it.

There isn't a single character in this show tha wouldn't use dragons in the battlefield against an army. Not a single one.

Seriously. The Lannister army literally just destroyed one of her most important allies, and there are people here who think it's an act of madness that she attacked that army with her most powerful asset?
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Still, Jon won't kill Reek despite what he did, so I don't buy the "Jon is onto revenge" part anyway. He is much more level headed than most.

Dany is obviously not insane yet. I don't see anything right now pointing to that.
 
Some of y'all apply 2017 humane war ethics to Danny, and medieval ethics to everyone else.

I don't get it.

There isn't a single character in this show tha wouldn't use dragons in the battlefield against an army. Not a single one.

To be fair the show makes a point about Danny trying to be better that the medieval ethics of the GOT universe.

Tyrion warned her if she won the war by burning Kings Landing and killing hundreds of innocents she would be "more of the same".
 

Sanctuary

Member
Seriously. The Lannister army literally just destroyed one of her most important allies, and there are people here who think it's an act of madness that she attacked that army with her most powerful asset?

It's a bad tactic to take out one of the strongest components of the opposing force early. I mean, that's just dumb. You want to save them for last, because that somehow adds greater validity to your victory, since you're most likely to sustain heavier casualties than you would have otherwise. Duh.
 
And again, none of that makes her insane. It makes her an invading conqueror whose only "right" to the throne was her use of force and the fact that she had three dragons. Just like Aegon.

Im not saying she's insane, just that her being rash while wielding dragons is a lot like a ruler who is swinging around nuclear warheads.

She is very much an invader with a foreign army. Dany is used to liberating Essos and having people love her. Thats not as easy now and her advisors are clearly battling her at times. It has to blow up with all the teasing thats going on
 

molnizzle

Member
I mean, Jon technically did give is life for the Nights Watch which thus fulfilled his duty to them so I guess he had the option to leave at any point after that. I'm assuming The Black doesn't have any fine print about protocol regarding resurrection.

The point is that he knew he was going to leave, but waited just long enough to swing the sword and kill his enemies before doing so. He used his position of authority to get revenge and then tossed that responsibility aside when it no longer benefited him.

Will John Snow
discover that he is also unburnable
in the next episode?

He already burned his hand on a torch in an earlier season.
 
Everytime Jon and Khaleesi are on screen together i love it.

If the "Dany screwed the Lannisters by burning the gold" statements abound are any indication, when/if they have sex, the internet will celebrate it as the most romantic thing ever—completely forgetting it's aunt and nephew boning. Despite it being apropriate for the context, it's still a little weird for us the audience.

Who knows, maybe it's the start of mainstreaming incest once again.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The politics are just inherently murky for Dany now. For all the loyalty she's rightfully earned across the sea, she hasn't earned shit in Westeros. It's regressive: hero of the free, with the end goal of conquest. Nobody gives a fuck about her bloodline and she isn't owed any throne. She can't expect to claw her way up from dirt and earn respect in one continent and act like completely different in another. She's now playing the game she always intended to play and it's going to get dirty because the game is inherently rotted.
 
At least one dragon is absolutely biting the dust

fFUjGje.gif
 
Seriously. The Lannister army literally just destroyed one of her most important allies, and there are people here who think it's an act of madness that she attacked that army with her most powerful asset?
She didn't just attack an army, though. She caused herself more bad than good from her little ego trip.
 

Sephzilla

Member
The point is that he knew he was going to leave, but waited just long enough to swing the sword and kill his enemies before doing so. He used his position of authority to get revenge and then tossed that responsibility aside when it no longer benefited him.

Wasn't one of the other reasons he did that was because one of the traitors was next in the line of succession for High Commander?

So basically if he didn't do it the traitors would get pardoned
 

Kolx

Member
There's a world of difference between flying to the Red Keep to kill the leaders of an opposing military force with collateral damage, and the Mad King's desire to destroy the entirety of King's Landing. One is an act of war, another is brazen insanity.

Tywin Lannister sacked King's Landing, destroying parts of the city that weren't even near the Red Keep. Do you think that act made Tywin insane?

I'm not sure it'd have ended with just Cersie dead and some collateral damage, otherwise her advisers wouldn't be talking the way they do now. At least don't tell me that there is not at least a chance that this is going to end up putting the entire city up in flames and she knows it when she said she wanted to do that. And I can't see how what Tywin did is close to this. It's like comparing a WMD to a regular swords fight that never has the same potential of fucking everything up in the city?
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
I see that the conversation still hasnt changed from "somebody please think of the lannister soldiers!"
That and she's apparently turning crazy because her punishing slavers, wanting to take the fight to Cersie after suffering numerous defeats, and fighting armies with dragons, is somehow signs that she'll turn into Aerys.
 

RDreamer

Member
You must be excrutiatingly hard to please. This, coming from someone who is extremely hard to please. Three of the four current episodes have been on par with any of the season finale episodes. Jesus.

Some of us signed on to Game of Thrones for the writing and political intrigue inherent in Seasons 1-4 or so, not the spectacle. Season 1 barely had any spectacle and most people that I know agree it's by far the best season.
 

Volimar

Member
She didn't just attack an army, though. She caused herself more bad than good from her little ego trip.



She completely destroyed that portion of the army and the grain that Cersei relied on to feed her troops. She almost certainly captured Jaime, Bronn, and Tarley, the three commanders of the enemy forces.
 

Sephzilla

Member
She completely destroyed that portion of the army and the grain that Cersei relied on to feed her troops. She almost certainly captured Jaime, Bronn, and Tarley, the three commanders of the enemy forces.

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing. All in all it was a net gain of zero. So both armies starve now plus innocent civilians.
 
she has a legitimate claim to the throne, stronger than everyone else's and she's likely offering everyone the opportunity to join her cause.
She has no claim. Her family lost the throne.

You can't claim something your family doesn't own, a Targaryen has no claim to the throne whatsoever.

Crowns fall and rise and unfortunately the line of argumentation doesn't hold. If Dany becomes a legitimate ruler of Westeros that's fine but her massive entitlement complex isn't exactly perfectly founded. Her father was mad and lost and just like her ancestors conquered Westeros, they were conquered by someone else.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom