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[Sanctuary]

Some of us signed on to Game of Thrones for the writing and political intrigue inherent in Seasons 1-4 or so, not the spectacle. Season 1 barely had any spectacle and most people that I know agree it's by far the best season.

I didn't start watching the show for spectacle either, and had to constantly remind a friend (who would incessantly complain that most battles are simply implied and that there's not some epic confrontation every episode) what the show is really about, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a spectacular climax either, which these shows have done very well for the most part. We're seven seasons in. I'm pretty sure most things that need to be talked about have been talked about on the show already...

 

[molnizzle]

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing.

All in all it was a net gain of zero

She's trying to get Cersei to surrender.

She underestimates the fact that Cersei would let her entire kingdom starve to death before doing that.

 

[poppabk]

Err, I assumed most people would put that together with the budget?

The scenes that are cut for the most part are the long cheap exposition scenes. I have to imagine it's mainly logistics. Now that all the main cast are coalescing, you can't have a 2nd or 3rd team filming elsewhere.

Enjoyed the episode but hopefully this was the last of the 'surprise' attacks, each more surprising than the last. We shouldn't have whole armies traveling hundreds of miles without a hint of their movement.

 

[Plum]

 

[HvySky]

She didn't just attack an army, though. She caused herself more bad than good from her little ego trip.

How so? She cut off the supply line to King's Landing, decimated a portion of the Lannister army, and likely captured Jaime Lannister. Seems like a win to me.

 

[zsynqx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2wcBeyNdk

Making of the Loot Train attack.

 

[wesleyshark]

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing. All in all it was a net gain of zero. So both armies starve now plus innocent civilians.

This. She arrived at dragonstone with no means to feed all of her soldiers for the long term apart from what they brought with them. She incinerated a ton of supplies they could have used for themselves. Woops.

 

[water_wendi]

She has no claim. Her family lost the throne.

You can't claim something your family doesn't own, a Targaryen has no claim to the throne whatsoever.

Crowns fall and rise and unfortunately the line of argumentation doesn't hold. If Dany becomes a legitimate ruler of Westeros that's fine but her massive entitlement complex isn't exactly perfectly founded. Her father was mad and lost and just like her ancestors conquered Westeros, they were conquered by someone else.

Of course she has a claim. Her father, the king, was killed by a usurper.

 

[Sephzilla]

She's trying to get Cersei to surrender.

She underestimates the fact that Cersei would let her entire kingdom starve to death before doing that.

Then she either isn't listening to her counsel or her counsel is stupid. Because everyone on her counsel, especially Tyrion, should immediately know that Cersei wouldn't surrender

How so? She cut off the supply line to King's Landing, decimated a portion of the Lannister army, and likely captured Jaime Lannister. Seems like a win to me.

That food she burnt was originally for her army

 

[Heshinsi]

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing. All in all it was a net gain of zero. So both armies starve now plus innocent civilians.

First of all, just because we know there's grain there doesn't mean she does. How would she? She came over the hill and attacked the Lannister army. Those caravans were effectively loot the Lannister's stole from High Garden.

Secondly, Tyrion's plan was a blockade of King's Landing. What do you think that entails if they set it up? No supplies into the city.

 

[Volimar]

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing.

All in all it was a net gain of zero

That's just silly. She denied resources to the enemy and probably has high value prisoners.

 

[Shin K Dash]

you know. i was kinda confused at this part. because they are low on food at dragonstone so why didn't they take these carriages?

 

[slit]

What did she gain from that battle? Her dragon burned all of the supplies (which are in very short availability as we've been told numerous times) and killed most of the army, most of whom are just men following orders.

Strategically, it makes no sense. She's reacting in anger. It's going to be her downfall.

Even so, that doesn't mean she disregarded his advice. He never said don't attack the Lannister's army. Also I don't know what you mean by "killed most of the army", that is sort of the point in a war. Most armies follow orders on the battlefield and some die as a result from their opponent.

 

[wesleyshark]

you know. i was kinda confused at this part. because they are low on food at dragonstone so why didn't they take these carriages?

Because Dany isn't thinking clearly.

 

[RichiRamjag]

I think all three are crazy in their own respective ways, and to varying degrees

-- Bran is crazy because he's become increasingly disconnected from everything
-- Arya is happily crazy and wants to murder everyone in her path
-- Sansa is quietly crazy because she's been around Cersei, Ramsay, and Littlefinger too long

Gonna have to put the whole cast in the looney bin lol.

 

[Eidan]

I'm not sure it'd have ended with just Cersie dead and some collateral damage, otherwise her advisers wouldn't be talking the way they do now. At least don't tell me that there is not at least a chance that this is going to end up putting the entire city up in flames and she knows it when she said she wanted to do that. And I can't see how what Tywin did is close to this. It's like comparing a WMD to a regular swords fight that never has the same potential of fucking everything up in the city?

You're reaching. I think I've done a decent job explaining how Daenerys' character arc is directly questioning whether she will be the positive force of change she wants to be, or another Aegon. Nothing about her story has hinted at her behaving like Aerys. The very fact that she specifies going to the Red Keep instead of King's Landing shows that she has no desire to sack the entire city. Hell, it was a point made literally in the previous episode.

Look, it's perfectly fine to not think Dany is force for good. Because she's not. Hell, that's one of the reasons I think her arc is interesting. But this attempt to say she's going insane just isn't supported by what we've seen in the show.

 

[molnizzle]

Then she either isn't listening to her counsel or her counsel is stupid. Because everyone on her counsel, especially Tyrion, should immediately know that Cersei would't surrender

Following the advice of Tyrion and the rest of the counsel has gotten her ass kicked so far. Like she said, "enough with the clever plans." She initially wanted to burn The Red Keep to the ground but Jon talked her out of it. So she went straight to the Lannister army and destroyed the food they had just stolen from her allies at Highgarden.

 

[TimeEffect]

Of course she has a claim. Her father, the king, was killed by a usurper.

Her father, the mad king, who everybody decided had to go. It was just.

She's lucky to be alive, let alone vying for the throne. Sure, she's not like her dad, but she really has no claim because everybody voted to remove her Father, and end the Targaryen rule.

 

[RDreamer]

I didn't start watching the show for spectacle either, and had to constantly remind a friend (who would incessantly complain that most battles are simply implied and that there's not some epic confrontation every episode) what the show is really about, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a spectacular climax either, which these shows have done very well for the most part.

I think the last few episodes' spectacles would have been better had they not spoiled it with really bad believability. Every one of them has ended up with both me and my wife audibly saying basically "oh come the fuck on, how..." at the end. And I know Game of Thrones sometimes relied on that sort of thing but they've stretched it into nonsense. Euron battle would have been cool if it also hadn't been so completely what the fuck how did he get to the absolute correct ship without any warning. The Castle attacks would have been cool had it not been for fucking Euron showing up out of nowhere again and not making any goddamned sense. And this episode would have been fine if not for literally no one attacking Bronn for all the time in the world he took to aim, him diving about 2 feet away and not dying and then him grabbing Jaime and jumping him into a magical lake that's suddenly 10+ feet deep only 3 feet away from where they were running horses.

I know that sort of stuff is going to pop up in high spectacle things, but, again, high spectacle wasn't why I was watching and when it pops up so much, episode after episode something has to break. If Bronn's bullshit hadn't immediately followed Euron's bullshit I probably would have accepted it all hook line and sinker.

 

[Sephzilla]

First of all, just because we know there's grain there doesn't mean she does. How would she? She came over the hill and attacked the Lannister army. Those caravans were effectively loot the Lannister's stole from High Garden.

Secondly, Tyrion's plan was a blockade of King's Landing. What do you think that entails if they set it up? No supplies into the city.

In one of the scenes before the attack Danny even states that losing High Garden means they have no food, and she knows the Lannister's ransacked the place. She almost certainly knew that was the grain supply.

Secondly, Danny wants to prove she is better than Cersei. Starving the innocent people of Kings Landing and also demanding that complete strangers bend the knee to her accomplish absolutely none of this. Danny/Tyrion's plan was flawed from its inception.

That's just silly. She denied resources to the enemy and probably has high value prisoners.

She could have denied resources to the enemy while also providing resources to her own. That battle was basically Danny going "if I can't have it nobody can"

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Still, Jon won't kill Reek despite what he did, so I don't buy the "Jon is onto revenge" part anyway. He is much more level headed than most.

Dany is obviously not insane yet. I don't see anything right now pointing to that.

The fact that he was written in such a way that he stopped short of killing Ramsay in the heat of battle makes him almost superhuman in the self-restraint category. After everything Ramsay did, he still had enough wherewithal to realize Sansa deserved that privilege more.

How so? She cut off the supply line to King's Landing, decimated a portion of the Lannister army, and likely captured Jaime Lannister. Seems like a win to me.

Moreover, she's also now aware of the threat of Qyburn's weapon and gained this knowledge with minimal cost since Drogon was wounded rather than killed. Her tactics and attack patterns should change with this new knowledge.

 

[Eidan]

That grain was also to feed her troops and also to feed Kings Landing. All in all it was a net gain of zero. So both armies starve now plus innocent civilians.

I'm not sure why you think either side care much about this. Tyrion's plan was a blockade of King's Landing. What do you think blockades do?

 

[HvySky]

Then she either isn't listening to her counsel or her counsel is stupid. Because everyone on her counsel, especially Tyrion, should immediately know that Cersei wouldn't surrender



That food she burnt was originally for her army

It seems reductive to say that because the supplies were burned that she ultimately lost that scenario. She still denied Cersei and King's Landing the food and leveled the playing field a bit after taking multiple Ls in a row due to Euron and his cheat codes.

Edit:

Moreover, she's also now aware of the threat of Qyburn's weapon and gained this knowledge with minimal cost since Drogon was wounded rather than killed. Her tactics and attack patterns should change with this new knowledge.

Yep. You can bet she'll be telling her counsel back at Dragonstone that Cersei has a means to harm her dragons. The Lannisters played their hand too early with that one even if it was in a desperation.

 

[RichiRamjag]

I think this comes from a basic misunderstanding of the Mad King.

Pretty much.

I wouldn't say shit, just that the writing quality has dropped and for obvious reasons - it's mostly original. Logistics of character locations is getting a bit lazy, and wittiness and dialog complexity has been replaced by comic relief.

Basically the show has gone from a dark, medieval fantasy to a Summer blockbuster movie.

Spot on. I still dig it, but not for the same reasons as I did back in season 1-2.

 

[aBarreras]

here we go again with the dany hate!

she is hitler guys, you know it in your heart /s

 

[Harrison Bergeron]

I really don't get the perception that Dany is going crazy like her father.

What the hell was she supposed to do? Her whole motivation in the series was to take the Iron Throne—because she believed it to be some birthright. She gained some new ideas about ruling along the way, but she attacked an opposition army here when the Lannisters had been conquering Westeros.

Would you have preferred the acr end with her realizing her calling was in the new world of Slaver's Bay?

If not, what was she supposed to do? Let the Lannisters take all the grain and gold on the continent and starve with the Dothraki and Unsullied on Dragonstone?

Or, send a Raven and be like, "Ok Lannisters, meet me in the open field, promise I'll be humane and not use the dragons?"

She even tried Tyrion's approach first.

 

[Heshinsi]

In one of the scenes before the attack Danny even states that losing High Garden means they have no food, and she knows the Lannister's ransacked the place. She almost certainly knew that was the grain supply.

Secondly, Danny wants to prove she is better than Cersei. Starving the innocent people of Kings Landing and also demanding that complete strangers bend the knee to her accomplish absolutely none of this. Danny/Tyrion's plan was flawed from its inception.

How would she know that caravan was the grain supply, and not say the gold the Lannisters stole? The fact of the matter is that she wouldn't have known about what is in those caravans. Plus, if that's all the food from the Reach in a dozen or two caravans, that's some pathetic yields from what is essentially billed as Westeros' bread basket.

So how exactly do you think a plan to dislodge Cersei from the Iron Throne would work then? If you can't attack the keep with dragons, and you can't blockade it, how do you defeat Cersei?

 

[molnizzle]

In one of the scenes before the attack Danny even states that losing High Garden means they have no food, and she knows the Lannister's ransacked the place. She almost certainly knew that was the grain supply.

Secondly, Danny wants to prove she is better than Cersei. Starving the innocent people of Kings Landing and also demanding that complete strangers bend the knee to her accomplish absolutely none of this. Danny/Tyrion's plan was flawed from its inception.

King's Landing isn't low on food, Jaime just took the food from Highgarden to deny Dany. They were stocking up for the long winter too but that isn't their primary concern right now.

I don't think you're arguing in good faith though so I'm not gonna bother responding to you anymore.

 

[Servbot24]

you know. i was kinda confused at this part. because they are low on food at dragonstone so why didn't they take these carriages?

Payback / telling her enemies not to fuck with her again

 

[Sephzilla]

King's Landing isn't low on food, Jaime just took the food from Highgarden to deny Dany. They were stocking up for the long winter too but that isn't their primary concern right now.

I don't think you're arguing in good faith though so I'm not gonna bother responding to you anymore.

It wasn't low on food yet but the show made it clear on a couple of occasions that Kings Landing would starve if High Garden wasn't theirs. Taking High Garden was essential for multiple reasons to Cersei

 

[emag]

She's trying to get Cersei to surrender.

She underestimates the fact that Cersei would let her entire kingdom starve to death before doing that.

And probably burn King's Landing herself, just like the Mad King. Cersei already blew up the Sept of Balor, showing no remorse.

 

[RichiRamjag]

It wasn't low on food yet but the show made it clear on a couple of occasions that Kings Landing would starve if High Garden wasn't theirs

If it wasn't this, it'd have happened with the blockade or the eventual siege. This isn't game of chuckles, mate.

 

[halfbeast]

If he does, it'd be a recent development, since he burned his hand defending Mormont from the wight in season One-ish.

maybe resurrection gives you new abilities?

 

[Sephzilla]

Aside from everyone's differing opinions on whether or not Danny is a good or bad leader. I just want to say that it was nice to actually see Danny take a couple of Ls this season. It was getting boring seeing her John Cena her way through everything pre-Westeros

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Howland Reed when?

 

[nubbe]

Jon: "How many mend do we have? 10,000?"
Davos:

 

[SlimySnake]

She didnt know that was food. That Tarly dude didnt tell her that all the gold was already in King's Landing. Only Bronn and Jamie have that information.

Dany probably thought it was gold or whatever loot they captured from high garden/brought back from Castly Rock.

And she isnt killing any civilians. This is war and soldiers die in war.

 

[ComputerBlue]

She's trying to get Cersei to surrender.

She underestimates the fact that Cersei would let her entire kingdom starve to death before doing that.

And what do you think the citizens would do? Just accept it?

Then comes along a woman with food for the poor, suddenly you've got yourself a new queen everyone loves with a bit of suffering and minimized casualties.

Of course it's not that simple. But just like Jaime said, not long ago they were spitting on Cersei, they'll do it again just as quickly.

 

[ProtomanNeo]

While some of the food stores were destroyed I think there should be plenty left. As this caravan sounds like it was pretty long considering they plundered the stores as well as the country side. I would imagine there's quite a bit left. And what better way to get people on your side than to take only what you need and and give the rest back to the people.

 

[wesleyshark]

She didnt know that was food. That Tarly dude didnt tell her that all the gold was already in King's Landing. Only Bronn and Jamie have that information.

Dany probably thought it was gold or whatever loot they captured from high garden/brought back from Castly Rock.

That's what attacking without planning results in

 

[Sephzilla]

I think Danny knew it was the food. High Garden, to Danny, was viewed mostly as a food supply source with some wealth to back it. Danny and Tyrion thought Casterly Rock was the home of the Lannister's wealth supply because Tyrion never knew that the Lannisters were pretty much broke. So they had no reason to assume that the Lannisters were even going to take the gold from High Garden, thus no reason to assume it was part of the supply train

 

[FinalStageBoss]

Yea i dont get the Danny hate either tbh. It's a fucking war and she's inexperienced. And following her advisors she's been catching L's left and right.

 

[Kayhan]

Team Lannister:

 

[RustyNails]

I think this comes from a basic misunderstanding of the Mad King.

Yup. People wanting to see a nice character arc they can understand instead of a more complicated one.

Also now that Dorne is up for grabs, Dany can easily seize it and since Dorne is fertile land, she can feed her army.

 

[-griffy-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2wcBeyNdk

Making of the Loot Train attack.

Man every time I think about the logistics of pulling this show off every year I'm so damn impressed.

 

[CheckMate]

Just thought how cool it would be if the Night King would resurrect all the Starks in the crypt underneath Winterfell.

They have people that can fight with plot-armor there already, so a small showdown would be nice ;p

 

[ComputerBlue]

I think Danny knew it was the food. High Garden, to Danny, was viewed mostly as a food supply source with some wealth to back it. Danny and Tyrion thought Casterly Rock was the home of the Lannister's wealth supply because Tyrion never knew that the Lannisters were pretty much broke. So they had no reason to assume that the Lannisters were even going to take the gold from High Garden, thus no reason to assume it was part of the supply train

Tyrion was master of coin in KL for a while, I think he knew about the debt didn't he? But yeah, I guess he didn't know if they had money or gold in CR or not.

 

[Heshinsi]

And what do you think the citizens would do? Just accept it?

Then comes along a woman with food for the poor, suddenly you've got yourself a new queen everyone loves with a bit of suffering and minimized casualties.

We just had a scene an episode ago with cheering crowds all excited, blowing kisses, and making "fuck me you heart throb" gestures as Eron had his championship parade. In a city where the current Queen killed the other beloved Queen by blowing her, her family, the church, and many of the nobles up.

You're right, give it a week or two if the conquest ends up being brutal, and everything goes back to nornal. I love how Cersei tells those Reach lords that Dany is going to sack and pillage their cities, and then turns around and sacks and pillages their capital city haha.

 

[Timbuktu]

Danny and Tyrion thought Casterly Rock was the home of the Lannister's wealth supply because Tyrion never knew that the Lannisters were pretty much broke. So they had no reason to assume that the Lannisters were even going to take the gold from High Garden, thus no reason to assume it was part of the supply train

But Tyrion was Master of Coin. He should have known better really, taking the Rock was more a symbolic and personal thing for him. The stuff with the gold already reaching King's Landing feel pretty much like convenience for the plot.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

Of course she has a claim. Her father, the king, was killed by a usurper.

Her father losing the crown to Robert was the end of her claim. How do you believe this is not the case? The children of Kings who have been defeated and replaced are not royalty.