• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sephzilla

Member
Tyrion was master of coin, I think he knew about the debt didn't he?

Hmmm. I wonder if this is a potential plot hole or something, because something isn't adding up to me. On screen, the only person who ever openly spoke about the Lannisters being in debt was Tywin - and the only person he spoke to about it on screen was Cersei. Logically since Tyrion was Master of Coin he should have known that the Lannisters were in debt - but that makes his decision to attack Casterly Rock kind of perplexing since it wouldn't have much strategical value if the Lannisters are broke.

Maybe Tywin was really good at keeping the Lannister debt out of the Red Keep's books?
 

jm89

Member
I think the whole dany struggling to feed her army is way overblown. This was a huge victory where she defeated the opposition armies top commanders and reduced the casualties on her side by using her dragon.

Her attack didn't even last that long, if it took that short time to destroy all the food then it probably wasn't worth that much.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Her father losing the crown to Robert was the end of her claim. How do you believe this is not the case? The children of Kings who have been defeated and replaced are not royalty.
Nah, Robert made an effort of it to kill her and her brother. Why do you think that is? Why do you think Ned kept Jon's true parentage a secret he didn't even share with his wife? The Iron Throne is a Targaryen throne, so long as there lives a Targaryen to claim it.
 
Hmmm. I wonder if this is a potential plot hole or something, because something isn't adding up to me. On screen, the only person who ever openly spoke about the Lannisters being in debt was Tywin - and the only person he spoke to about it on screen was Cersei. Logically since Tyrion was Master of Coin he should have known that the Lannisters were in debt - but that makes his decision to attack Casterly Rock kind of perplexing since it wouldn't have much strategical value if the Lannisters are broke.

Maybe Tywin was really good at keeping the Lannister debt out of the Red Keep's books?

I got the impression that it was an open secret in Kings Landing. Only in the countryside did the moniker "A lannister always pays his debts" still hold any value.

Just look at Olenna talking to Tywin before the purple wedding.

The Lannisters have been broke for a long time now, and it would be kind of shocking if no one knew about this.
 
Hmmm. I wonder if this is a potential plot hole or something, because something isn't adding up to me. On screen, the only person who ever openly spoke about the Lannisters being in debt was Tywin - and the only person he spoke to about it on screen was Cersei. Logically since Tyrion was Master of Coin he should have known that the Lannisters were in debt - but that makes his decision to attack Casterly Rock kind of perplexing since it wouldn't have much strategical value if the Lannisters are broke.

Maybe Tywin was really good at keeping the Lannister debt out of the Red Keep's books?

He knew... Knew that they owed millions to the Iron Bank, and knew they couldn't afford to pay it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Rya1JlUac

I guess the only reason to take CR is perhaps he thought the majority of the Army would be stationed there, which makes sense I guess. Especially since they were supposed to be.
 

RulkezX

Member
So Cersei is just going to magic a mercenary company up in the next episode or 2.

This episode was a lot of fun but I can tell now I'm going to be sitting with blue balls for nearly 2 years when this season ends.

Was also obvious as fuck that Tyrion is turning soon.
 
I don't get how this battle on its own in any way shows Daenerys is a monster. I mean, do think a bit.

1. She is losing and has 3 of her allies pretty much completely out of the game. She needed a hard hitting weapon to retaliate and she brought it.

2. This isn't a village. This isn't a city. It is 100% a military target on an open field close to nothing. Not a single regular civilian present.

3. Dothraki on an open field may have an advantage but having a cavalry charge (without armor!) at a completely covered and firm spear line would cause a ton of losses. By attacking the small patch of Lannister soldiers with fire she created an opening for the Dothraki to safely go through and the Lannisters couldn't cover or reinforce that space because... fire. The whole scene also probably demoralised the Lannister soldiers to the point where a regular Dothraki charge could do a lot more damage at the rest of the line.

4. From that point on, unless being directly shot at, Dany focused the fire almost entirely on the caravan and the supplies. The few soldiers that stood right next to the caravan were almost entirely a collateral as they were not the main target. If you see the angle at which she is flying down to the caravan, you can see she could have just as easily burned the entirety of the Lannister line without any problems. SHE DIDN'T. She specifically chose non-human targets.
 
Howland Reed when?
1.0
1.0
1.0

Meera is heading home. So there's a chance. Although his appearance is pointless becuase of Bran.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
there it is! thank you
Casterly Rock was strategic and symbolic. Remember when Robb damn near turned the Northern army around on the spot to go take Winterfell back? He said something to the effect of "what kinda king am I who can't even hold his capital?"
 

aBarreras

Member
Hmmm. I wonder if this is a potential plot hole or something, because something isn't adding up to me. On screen, the only person who ever openly spoke about the Lannisters being in debt was Tywin - and the only person he spoke to about it on screen was Cersei. Logically since Tyrion was Master of Coin he should have known that the Lannisters were in debt - but that makes his decision to attack Casterly Rock kind of perplexing since it wouldn't have much strategical value if the Lannisters are broke.

Maybe Tywin was really good at keeping the Lannister debt out of the Red Keep's books?

tyron was master of coin for the crown, not the lannister, how the fuck he would know how much his daddy owns to the iron bank?
 

Deku Tree

Member
He knew... Knew that they owed millions to the Iron Bank, and knew they couldn't afford to pay it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Rya1JlUac

I guess the only reason to take CR is perhaps he thought the majority of the Army would be stationed there, which makes sense I guess. Especially since they were supposed to be.

He says that “the crown owes millions to my father” and “to the iron bank”. He doesn’t say “my father is broke”

Tyrion knew about the crowns finances. He didn’t know about the Lannisters gold supply.
 
People seem to be misunderstanding something - as Master of Coin, Tyrion was responsible for the Crown's finances, and the debts he speaks of are the Crown's debts to the Lannisters and Iron Bank.

That doesn't mean he would have any access to information on Lannister finances or know the Lannister wealth is also not what it seems.

Edit: Beaten by Deku Tree
 

Sephzilla

Member
People seem to be misunderstanding something - as Master of Coin, Tyrion was responsible for the Crown's finances, and the debts he speaks of are the Crown's debts (including to the Lannisters and Iron Bank). That doesn't mean he would have any access to information on Lannister finances or know the Lannister wealth is also not what it seems.

read below your post

I think Tyrion put 2 and 2 together. The crown was dipping heavily into the Lannister's funds and not paying it back. So effectively the Lannisters had no money because the crown spent it all.

Plus Tyrion might have been able to dip into the Lannister's books to know what they had left because, y'know, he was a Lannister
 
Nah, Robert made an effort of it to kill her and her brother. Why do you think that is? Why do you think Ned kept Jon's true parentage a secret he didn't even share with his wife? The Iron Throne is a Targaryen throne, so long as there lives a Targaryen to claim it.

Her claim is as valid as that of a pig farmers. The claim to the throne is all down to what people in positions of power agree is a worthwhile claim.


That's why I always laughed at people shilling Stannis. Next in line...
Mimimimi. Put up or shut up.

There is no legitimate claim, only personal or family ambitions.
 

Kickz

Member
So Cersei is just going to magic a mercenary company up in the next episode or 2.

This episode was a lot of fun but I can tell now I'm going to be sitting with blue balls for nearly 2 years when this season ends.
.

I don't even know what their rush is to end this, the siege on Kings Landing alone could take half a season. But for some reason they are insisting on teleporting people around and having battles done in seconds.
 
I don't get how this battle on its own in any way shows Daenerys is a monster. I mean, do think a bit.

1. She is losing and has 3 of her allies pretty much completely out of the game. She needed a hard hitting weapon to retaliate and she brought it.

2. This isn't a village. This isn't a city. It is 100% a military target on an open field close to nothing. Not a single regular civilian present.

3. Dothraki on an open field may have an advantage but having a cavalry charge (without armor!) at a completely covered and firm spear line would cause a ton of losses. By attacking the small patch of Lannister soldiers with fire she created an opening for the Dothraki to safely go through and the Lannisters couldn't cover or reinforce that space because... fire. The whole scene also probably demoralised the Lannister soldiers to the point where a regular Dothraki charge could do a lot more damage at the rest of the line.

4. From that point on, unless being directly shot at, Dany focused the fire almost entirely on the caravan and the supplies. The few soldiers that stood right next to the caravan were almost entirely a collateral as they were not the main target. If you see the angle at which she is flying down to the caravan, you can see she could have just as easily burned the entirety of the Lannister line without any problems. SHE DIDN'T. She specifically chose non-human targets.
Because using dragons is crimes against humanity and burning people alive evil.

Nevermind the battle of blackwater.
 
Nah, Robert made an effort of it to kill her and her brother. Why do you think that is? Why do you think Ned kept Jon's true parentage a secret he didn't even share with his wife? The Iron Throne is a Targaryen throne, so long as there lives a Targaryen to claim it.
That is genuinely not how the rule of succession works though, it just sounds like convenient poetry.
 

Sephzilla

Member
The only person who has a true rightful claim to the throne right now is Gendry. The Iron Throne is still technically under House Baratheon since Cersei is Robert's widow and she inherited it via the Baratheon line.
 

RDreamer

Member
Hmmm. I wonder if this is a potential plot hole or something, because something isn't adding up to me. On screen, the only person who ever openly spoke about the Lannisters being in debt was Tywin - and the only person he spoke to about it on screen was Cersei. Logically since Tyrion was Master of Coin he should have known that the Lannisters were in debt - but that makes his decision to attack Casterly Rock kind of perplexing since it wouldn't have much strategical value if the Lannisters are broke.

Maybe Tywin was really good at keeping the Lannister debt out of the Red Keep's books?

The decision to attack Casterly Rock seems logical considering the rest of the plan. They had the Tyrells and Dorne in the fold. Other than the north that really leaves only two pieces in the south of importance to attack, Casterly Rock and King's Landing. They were going to put King's Landing under siege, and then cut off any reinforcements and have a large moral victory in fucking up Casterly Rock.

I also think it was largely a good faith decision to keep the Tyrells and Dorne happy and in the fold with them. They didn't trust Tyrion 100%, but if Tyrion is willing to attack Casterly Rock then that gained a lot of trust.
 
I think Tyrion put 2 and 2 together. The crown was dipping heavily into the Lannister's funds and not paying it back. So effectively the Lannisters had no money because the crown spent it all.

I'm not sure how that follows - the Lannisters are supposedly obscenely wealthy, so I don't see why Tyrion would think his father would be loaning out gold he didn't have/couldn't really afford to. This wasn't the Crown dipping into Lannister funds; it was Tywin loaning it to Robert (presumably with very favorable interest!), so it'd just look like Tywin was taking advantage of the situation to get richer.

Plus Tyrion might have been able to dip into the Lannister's books to know what they had left because, y'know, he was a Lannister

I doubt it - the conversation Tywin has with Cersei about their mines implies it's a very closely held secret and when Tyrion was at Casterly Rock he was only allowed to manage the sewers.
 

Regginator

Member
Holy shit, great episode. Goosebumps when the Dothrakis marched up and the Lannister didn't know what hit them. I love how Daenerys is like fuck this pacifist shit, I usually find her quite a dull character. Whether or not it's smart is another story, but it feels very fresh coming from her. Can't wait for next week.
 

Deception

Member
So if Jon is revealed to be the love child of Rhaegar and Llyana, would he still be a bastard because they were not married? If not, wouldn't he have the rightful claim to the throne over Dany since when his father was killed he would have been King and then when he died Jon would be the rightful heir?
 

Sephzilla

Member
He's a bastard, just like Jon Snow.

Bastard or not, Cersei sure wanted to make sure he was out of the picture

I'm not sure how that follows - the Lannisters are supposedly obscenely wealthy, so I don't see why Tyrion would think his father would be loaning out gold he didn't have/couldn't really afford to.



I doubt it - the conversation Tywin has with Cersei about their mines implies it's a very closely held secret and when Tyrion was at Casterly Rock he was only allowed to manage the sewers.

good point
 

parasight

Member
Oh man I just read an article pointing out the Stannis callback. I've watched the episode three times and didn't even pick up on that. Good shit.
 
So if Jon is revealed to be the love child of Rhaegar and Llyana, would he still be a bastard because they were not married? If not, wouldn't he have the rightful claim to the throne over Dany since when his father was killed he would have been King and then when he died Jon would be the rightful heir?
Yes because Rhaegar was the eldest male child I believe and was the heir, and Rhaegar's other children were murdered so Jon has the most claim.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
That is genuinely not how the rule of succession works though, it just sounds like convenient poetry.
Line of succession get blown out of the water when you overthrow the ruling family. They and their supporters don't care what new line of succession a usurper decrees. Hence the Stuarts and their claim. Robert knew that so long as a Targaryen lived, his own claim rested on his right by conquest.
 

RDreamer

Member
So if Jon is revealed to be the love child of Rhaegar and Llyana, would he still be a bastard because they were not married? If not, wouldn't he have the rightful claim to the throne over Dany since when his father was killed he would have been King and then when he died Jon would be the rightful heir?

Yeah Jon has the most claim to the throne, but the show has pointed out numerous times that the one who sits on the throne isn't necessarily the one with the best claim, but the one with the power.

The funny thing is, though, the one person that seems to lean hard on the claim being important is Dany. It'll be interesting if/when she finds out. And I'm sure her finding out will probably lead to the marriage between the two or something.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom