Choke on the Magic
Banned
Hopefully GRRM will hurry up with TWOW. At his current pace the seasons could catch up with him.
Game of Thrones |OT| *UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Season 4 Offseason Thread
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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I have been saying this for a long time. AFfC and ADwD are 1000 page books. Even cutting them down significantly it will still be a challenge getting them into two combined seasons. Next year will nicely wrap up ASoS and then the next two seasons will take us through the 4th and 5th books. Pretty simple.
Steelyuhas
Member
Disregard the size of AFFC and ADWD. Yes, they are large books, but looks at the arcs in those books and how to most effectively adapt them to the TV show.
For the majority of arcs in those books, two full seasons just doesn't make any sense. It would be a very sparse and slow two seasons:
-Sam traveling to Oldtown for 2 seasons
-Brienne searching for Sansa for 2 seasons when we know she's nowhere close to finding her
-2+ seasons of the whole Meereen mess
-2 seasons of Tryion traveling and never getting to Dany
-They will probably get through most if not all of Bran's Dance material in season 4, so what do you do with 2 more seasons there?
-Interesting, concise arcs like Cersei, Jaime, and Jon's slowed to a snails pace for the sake of 2 seasons
Are there issues with covering the majority of arcs from those two books by the end of season 5? Definitely, but those are minor compared to grinding the show to a snails pace.
The biggest issue with the TV show, as a TV show, is that there are so many characters and arcs that are happening separately, even if they are somewhat related. That is a particular issue with books 4 and 5. The faster to get to the point in the story where things start coming together again the better in my opinion.
Also, if you did split AFFC and ADWD across two seasons, what are your climaxes for arcs in the first of the two seasons?
For the majority of arcs in those books, two full seasons just doesn't make any sense. It would be a very sparse and slow two seasons:
-Sam traveling to Oldtown for 2 seasons
-Brienne searching for Sansa for 2 seasons when we know she's nowhere close to finding her
-2+ seasons of the whole Meereen mess
-2 seasons of Tryion traveling and never getting to Dany
-They will probably get through most if not all of Bran's Dance material in season 4, so what do you do with 2 more seasons there?
-Interesting, concise arcs like Cersei, Jaime, and Jon's slowed to a snails pace for the sake of 2 seasons
Are there issues with covering the majority of arcs from those two books by the end of season 5? Definitely, but those are minor compared to grinding the show to a snails pace.
The biggest issue with the TV show, as a TV show, is that there are so many characters and arcs that are happening separately, even if they are somewhat related. That is a particular issue with books 4 and 5. The faster to get to the point in the story where things start coming together again the better in my opinion.
Also, if you did split AFFC and ADWD across two seasons, what are your climaxes for arcs in the first of the two seasons?
At a certain point you have to accept that that it is the non readers responsibility to protect themselves. If they deeply care about spoilers yet don't want to read the books, they should avoid spoiler hot zones like Internet forums and comic convention panels.
No sympathy for people who have this unrealistic expectation that they can participate in a book based fandom while avoiding book details.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Manderly revealing his plans to Davos
Stannis capturing Deepwood Motte
Myrcella getting scarred
Dany agreeing to marry Hrizdhar
Sam departing Braavos
Tyrion and Jorah finding a ship to get them to Mereen
Those are some obvious ones without having to spend too much time looking over everything, and it leaves a lot of exciting stuff yet to happen in Season 6.
I'd have preferred three seasons for Feast/Dance, but it doesn't sound like that's going to happen, so I suppose two would still work alright.
Exterminieren
Banned
That'll go down well with audiences conditioned for big episode 9 events and revelations.
Not a chance. They'll invent stuff, and lots of it.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
I think so too.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Bigger Episode 9 events than Season 2 had.
I'm sure they'll invent stuff, but having Tyrion captured by Jorah in Episode 9, while Myrcella gets her face cut up, and Stannis wins a big battle would be pretty big events. Not on par with the Red Wedding, but nothing will be. Those would easily be just as big or bigger than Blackwater, which was basically an entire episode that ended with the status quo being maintained and a couple of characters getting injured.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Yea, I throw my hat in with you here. Translating Books 4 and 5 into two full separate seasons would be painful to watch. It was painful to read. The TV show is challenging for some as it is, and completely introducing so many new, and most shallow, characters, at the expense of the current narrative just wouldn't work.
They should, and need to, in my opinion, take creative licence after next season.
Mishmash the main concepts, plotpoints, and character development with their own direction, and focus on great television (as they have been) till they can sync up properly for Martin's desired ending.
It's an HBO panel for their TV show, there will be no book spoilers there.
timetokill
Banned
The unspoken bit is that the new "shallow" characters you're talking about could prove to be crucial in the upcoming books. Do we really think the Martells are going to be completely insignificant in the grand scheme of things? The Blackfyre plot? Manderly's plot? The Greyjoys altogether, including Victarion and Euron? and so on?
Cutting down on these characters has a high probability of being forced into one of these two outcomes:
a) You have to introduce those once-"shallow" and now-extremely-important characters at a rapid pace that blindsides the audience and doesn't make for great television, sabotaging your original intent or
b) Completely changing course from where the books are going and risk alienating a large contingent of book-readers who are also huge fans and promoters of your show
PhoenixDark
Banned
Uh you guys realize the last two books occur concurrently and thus can be adapted at the same time. Two seasons total is enough, there won't be two seasons for each book.
There's plenty of great material in the last two books. AFFC is really perfect for the show IMO, given how strong the King's Landing scenes are. I'd leave the Queen of Thrones in King's Landing instead of having her disappear after Joffery's wedding. It'll be a breakout season for Cersei, and her confrontations with Margery and the Small Council will be stellar; btw leaving the Queen of Thornes in King's Landing will make up for the absense of Varys and Littlefinger IMO.
Viewers seem to really like Brienne, and I'm sure some changes will be made to make it more interesting; plus viewers enjoyed Pod who will get some nice screen time.
Sansa's Eyrie arc could be interesting if done right. She'll be learning the game of thrones, and perhaps they'll speed up some TWOW stuff; I really think Sweet Robin is going to be killed, perhaps by Sansa.
The north stuff could be a problem. While I haven't run into anyone who thought ADWD's northern chapters were bad (they're amazing) I'm not sure viewers want to see more Theon, Stannis, and Ramsay Bolton. Still, they could speed things up and get to the almost inevitable northern revenge, assuming TWOW is out by the time this season occurs.
Dany...challenging but not impossible. Her story features a few amazing moments (Martell being burned, the assassination attempt, Barrison being a badass). The problem will be that viewers want her to go to Westeros. S3 ends in such a stupid fashion that many believe she's going there next season...which is why I believe the show will give her a reason to sack Mereen beyond freeing slaves. Having Mereen assassins kill Missandei, or capture Jorah, would justify it in viewer's eyes.
There's plenty of great material in the last two books. AFFC is really perfect for the show IMO, given how strong the King's Landing scenes are. I'd leave the Queen of Thrones in King's Landing instead of having her disappear after Joffery's wedding. It'll be a breakout season for Cersei, and her confrontations with Margery and the Small Council will be stellar; btw leaving the Queen of Thornes in King's Landing will make up for the absense of Varys and Littlefinger IMO.
Viewers seem to really like Brienne, and I'm sure some changes will be made to make it more interesting; plus viewers enjoyed Pod who will get some nice screen time.
Sansa's Eyrie arc could be interesting if done right. She'll be learning the game of thrones, and perhaps they'll speed up some TWOW stuff; I really think Sweet Robin is going to be killed, perhaps by Sansa.
The north stuff could be a problem. While I haven't run into anyone who thought ADWD's northern chapters were bad (they're amazing) I'm not sure viewers want to see more Theon, Stannis, and Ramsay Bolton. Still, they could speed things up and get to the almost inevitable northern revenge, assuming TWOW is out by the time this season occurs.
Dany...challenging but not impossible. Her story features a few amazing moments (Martell being burned, the assassination attempt, Barrison being a badass). The problem will be that viewers want her to go to Westeros. S3 ends in such a stupid fashion that many believe she's going there next season...which is why I believe the show will give her a reason to sack Mereen beyond freeing slaves. Having Mereen assassins kill Missandei, or capture Jorah, would justify it in viewer's eyes.
Exterminieren
Banned
In terms of scale, you're damned right Blackwater is much bigger than any of those things. Tyrion being captured and Myrcella getting injured could literally be any old cliffhanger, and the taking of Deepwood Motte is given absolutely no more prominence than any other skirmish, and nor does it massively advance the plot.
The Battle of the Blackwater was the main two threads of season 2 smashing together, with big scale and the Lannister and Stannis plots being fundamentally altered. Absolutely nothing in AFFC or ADWD is even remotely similarly memorable, to be honest. There's precedent for them setting up their own big storylines with the Yara/ Dreadfort stuff that's been teased, so I'd say it's more than likely that season 5 will use something like that instead.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I don't disagree with you in theory, but to be candid, the show is a huge success now because it's great television. I do not think the show runners need be as beholden to the book as they initially did. They not only have to respect the source material, naturally, and they always will, but they need to respect the fact that they are an award winning, high budget TV show with a broader audience and that comes with a lot of things they need to respect as well.
Let's put it this way, they have direct access to Martin. They can ask, 'hey do we really need all these kettleblacks, do they matter later on?' and just combine them or cut them. It really does not change the narrative of the show to streamline this, as their role really is just to add color to Cercei. Anything else ancillary that's cut or changed that distracts or changes the relationship watchers have with the main strands of the HBO, in my opinion, at this point, are not detrimental but beneficial to the show.
and of cours,e anything they do, changes nothing in the books, as Stephen King says... the story is right there on the shelf for you to read anytime you want.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm assuming that Marshall will be directing episode 9 instead of the finale, and it will be the battle on the Wall - the initial attack, Jon becoming the battle commander, etc...and Tyrion killing Tywin. This is unfortunate IMO because it would mean that Jon's story will be stretched out. Ygritte should have died in the S3 finale IMO, in that initial skirmish. Perhaps they'll kill her in episode 3 or 4? So what will Jon be doing for the rest of that time, beyond planning for the battle? Also I wonder how audiences will react to another big battle episode that ends with a third party riding in at the last minute to save the day.
This would allow for the finale to be more eventful than normal: Jon being named Lord Commander, Tyrion learning he's on his way to meet Dany, Littlefinger tossing Lysa out the window, and Stoneheart.
Another possibility: Marshall is indeed directing the finale, which will be the Wall battle. And episode 9 will be Tyrion killing his father; episode 8 would feature the Mountain/Red Viper fight.
This would allow for the finale to be more eventful than normal: Jon being named Lord Commander, Tyrion learning he's on his way to meet Dany, Littlefinger tossing Lysa out the window, and Stoneheart.
Another possibility: Marshall is indeed directing the finale, which will be the Wall battle. And episode 9 will be Tyrion killing his father; episode 8 would feature the Mountain/Red Viper fight.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
The scale of the battle was impressive, but it wasn't some huge shocking event. I'm not really sure how it was the 'main two threads' of the season, either. Stannis didn't exactly get a lot of screen time. His plot line was at least fifth or sixth in that season in terms of how much focus it got. It was easily one of the best episodes of the entire show, but I think that events like Myrcella getting her face cut up in the middle of attempted coup and Tyrion being captured by Jorah making his dramatic return after being missing for almost an entire season are bigger game changers than 'The Lannisters still control King's Landing and Stannis still doesn't. (Which isn't necessarily to say that it would make for a better episode, but I can't see how people would be upset by that on the basis of it not being a big event)
I'm reasonably certain they aren't going to have the dramatic climax of a season be something they make up entirely. They haven't done anything that extreme so far, and I don't see any reason for them to start in Season 5.
I was responding to a hypothetical situation where fans asked spoilery questions of the cast, and suggesting that we not feel too badly for hypothetical fans who got spoiled in the aforementioned manner.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'd imagine S5's episode 9 would feature the assassination attempt on Dany, which is a huge scene in terms of scope. I have no idea how they'll pull that off.
Exterminieren
Banned
Tyrion's storyline in Series 2, at least, is far and away the most important thread of series 2.
You're missing the point, though. Book 2 is called A Clash of Kings. Blackwater is the clash of the kings. It's literally where all the threads have been drawing, in both books and series.
There have been multiple less prestigious episodes that have had more dramatic cliffhanger endings than Myrcella getting injured or Tyrion being captured by Jorah. These are not even remotely climactic events, in the way that every episode 9 thus far has been.
They haven't had such a big problem in having big, cinematic events to portray before.
If we're gonna do fantasy screenplays, here's mine: Have the initial Wall skirmish at episode 3. Have the Battle at the Wall air early, around episode 5 or so with Marshall directing. The previous episode can have Joffrey's wedding.
Episode 6 and 7 would feature Tyrion's trial, 8 would feature Jon going out to talk with Mance, and the Viper/Mountain duel. For 9, have all the big events at the conclusion of ASOS play out; Tyrion killing Tywin, Jon being offered Winterfell then elected Lord Commander, Arya killingthe Tickler Polliver and leaving Sandor, Lysa being thrown out the window, etc.
Have most of episode 10 use AFFC and ADWD introductory material: Jon sending Sam out/Beheading Slynt, Bran having his visions of the past, Theon killing Ironmen with Roose finally returning alongside fake Arya, Tyrion having his chat with Illyrio about meeting Dany, oh some shit with Dany too. Of course, we can't leave out Stoneheart for the ending shot.
Episode 6 and 7 would feature Tyrion's trial, 8 would feature Jon going out to talk with Mance, and the Viper/Mountain duel. For 9, have all the big events at the conclusion of ASOS play out; Tyrion killing Tywin, Jon being offered Winterfell then elected Lord Commander, Arya killing
Have most of episode 10 use AFFC and ADWD introductory material: Jon sending Sam out/Beheading Slynt, Bran having his visions of the past, Theon killing Ironmen with Roose finally returning alongside fake Arya, Tyrion having his chat with Illyrio about meeting Dany, oh some shit with Dany too. Of course, we can't leave out Stoneheart for the ending shot.
Steelyuhas
Member
Still hoping for the battle to be at least split into two, even if Marshall shoots all of it and then they place them in separate episodes in post. (Cutting it in two could be everything up Jon getting locked up by Slynt/Thorne and the other half could be Jon sent out to Mance and then Stannis the Mannis time)
I really want Tyrion's release/Tywin confrontation in episode 10. It's basically the ultimate accumulation of Tyrion's journey and his relationship with his family and it would be a shame to not place that as an episode 10 climax (probably second to last scene only to Stoneheart). I see no reason for Dance content for Tyrion or Jon in season 4.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
You get it. Nice to see that on here.
Steelyuhas
Member
Looks like Nikolaj won't be able to be a part of the Comic-Con panel.
Shame, still seven other cast members on the panel though.
Shame, still seven other cast members on the panel though.
timetokill
Banned
I agree that they should focus on great television, but that said I think people are unfairly characterizing what happens in the later books as "bad." The only thing I can think of as truly bad is Dany's stuff, and I expect they're going to trim that stuff significantly anyway. And Brienne's journey can be improved upon/spiced up in a lot of ways without messing up any core plotlines from the book. Pretty much everything else in the books can be pretty compelling television in my opinion. Yes, even Tyrion's quest.
I'm definitely not saying they need every character to be present, and I think a lot of the cuts they've made have made sense so far in the show. I just think there is plenty of drama and that they shouldn't make the mistake of cutting character building for the sake of flashy action sequences that oftentimes aren't all that great anyway.
I don't know - to be fair, these are tv panels and they don't actually tend to contain the minority of book readers you might expect.
I know it's anecdotal, but over the weekend I was at LFCC where there was a screening (of A Golden Crown) with commentary by Peter Dinklage and Jason Momoa. At one point something vaguely spoilery was said about the books that haven't been covered by the show yet (I don't recall what offhand) and a moment later they did a quick survey of the audience (hands up if you've read the books, followed by a hands up if you hadn't).
Well over two thirds of the audience hadn't (which prompted an 'oops').
The fact the non-book readers outnumbered the book readers so much surprised me too... but if they do, then you have to accept that they have a point. Maybe they're in the right by default - they're fans of the show, and the panels are for the show, not the books.
There was also a panel during CMMK last year where one girl kept trying to ask Jason Momoa a question based on ADWD (it sounded like she was going to ask that 'the book implies the prophesy has been fulfilled. Does that mean you'll be returning?' question). She was stopped by an instant call of SPOILERS drowning her out. She was utterly clueless as to why it was happening and even when she gave up I'm not entirely sure she realised why she was in the wrong at the time. I think she'd just assumed that most of the people there would have read the books (and Jason is known to have read the books) and so didn't think there would be a problem when clearly there was.I was responding to a hypothetical situation where fans asked spoilery questions of the cast, and suggesting that we not feel too badly for hypothetical fans who got spoiled in the aforementioned manner.
(Actually, thinking about it, when some actors are known not to have read the books, or not to have read past the current series, it would be sort of dickish to ask them questions from their perspective as well).
I'm sure that there are panels where people have been spoiled by the audience, and I'm sure there will be more... but I don't really think the spoil-ees should be blamed for going to panels for shows they like just because other attendees are inconsiderate.
Exterminieren
Banned
Gimme the Mountain/Viper battle and STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS.
Cornballer
Member
- NY Mag: Behind the Music of Game of Thrones
Steelyuhas
Member
Ian Whyte (also plays The Mountain) as the giant in "Valar Dohaeris"
They gotta fill for time. Maybe he'll drop Davos off at White Harbor on the way.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Can't say I'm confident at all in them stretching Stannis through S4, assuming he has scenes before the arrival at the Wall.
I'm curious whether it'll be shown from multiple perspectives, and will be expanded beyond a few people shooting arrows down from a 700ft wall. Even if Noye isn't cast for this episode I'd imagine someone will fight a giant. Will we see the battle of the Bridge of Skulls, where Mance sent a distraction force to lure crows from Castle Black's gate? Should be interesting, and Marshall has a lot of time to plan things out, unlike the more last minute Blackwater process, where he replaced the director who initially was supposed to do it. I wonder who it was going to be?
Also when will Jon be arrested, then set free to negotiate with Mance? I hope to god he isn't made Lord Commander before the battle...
I'm curious whether it'll be shown from multiple perspectives, and will be expanded beyond a few people shooting arrows down from a 700ft wall. Even if Noye isn't cast for this episode I'd imagine someone will fight a giant. Will we see the battle of the Bridge of Skulls, where Mance sent a distraction force to lure crows from Castle Black's gate? Should be interesting, and Marshall has a lot of time to plan things out, unlike the more last minute Blackwater process, where he replaced the director who initially was supposed to do it. I wonder who it was going to be?
Also when will Jon be arrested, then set free to negotiate with Mance? I hope to god he isn't made Lord Commander before the battle...
Steelyuhas
Member
I think we'll definitely see plenty of Mance perspective (and why wouldn't you when you have Hinds).
Jon's Season 4 arc appears to be one of those things that seems like it should be a straight-forward adaption with minimal changes (kind of like Robb's season 3 arc). It's just a matter of placement across the season.
Steelyuhas
Member
This year the AV Club is highlighting some of the Emmy categories that don't typically get all the attention.
They highlight Game of Thrones for the casting category
They highlight Game of Thrones for the casting category
Steelyuhas
Member
First week of filming
Most of that stuff has been posted here, but there are a couple new things.
-Tony Way appears to be back as Dontos Hollard. Sophie Turner is also there now, so we can assume they filmed some Sansa and Dontos stuff this week.
-Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are there, so this comes as no surprise, but Ramsay and Reek will have more scenes together in season 4.
Most of that stuff has been posted here, but there are a couple new things.
-Tony Way appears to be back as Dontos Hollard. Sophie Turner is also there now, so we can assume they filmed some Sansa and Dontos stuff this week.
-Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are there, so this comes as no surprise, but Ramsay and Reek will have more scenes together in season 4.
Heh, I get to call him Reek now
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That is really weird. They pretty much gave all his Sansa-related storyline to Littlefinger directly.
Ugh, no more torture please...
This bit made me wonder:
Why would one of Ramsay's random wenches be riding? Some sort of rewritten version of the "Kyra escape"?
pr0cs
Member
They needed to replace Ros.
Steelyuhas
Member
I don't think so. The Littlefinger and Sansa stuff last year kind of became its own thing independent of what will happen this season. Reintroducing Dontos for a mini-version of his arc from the book will work just fine, and then the escape and Littlefinger being behind it will work just like the book.
Interesting bit about Charlotte Hope. Keep in mind though that there have been a number of cast members that were given riding lessons for the show and then never rode a horse in the show (Tobias Menzies mentioned doing riding lessons last year and then they never filmed anything with riding).
TestOfTide
Banned
I guess they really are going to have that scene where reek gets his teeth smashed with a hammer.
Steelyuhas
Member
Man, Jack looks really young, especially with that hair (he's 21).
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