There's more justification in killing the mad king than there is for what happened to Bran and Alton. I'm not sure why you think trying to kill a small child is justified for any reason.
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Game of Thrones - Season 2 - George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - Sundays on HBO
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There's more justification in killing the mad king than there is for what happened to Bran and Alton. I'm not sure why you think trying to kill a small child is justified for any reason.
Well you've convinced me. Theon had a pretty good reason to kill those kids too. So did Robert Baratheon when he had all of the Targaryen children killed.
I'm not saying it's ok to kill a little kid, I'm saying the reasoning behind it makes sense for the character in question.
Killing Alton was just a "shock" moment in an adaptation that doesn't need any.
[series spoiler]
You can justify practically anything if you look at it from what you have to gain at a personal level. He pushed Bran out the window in the heat of the moment, he wasn't planning out all the possible things that could happen if he was caught, he was just trying to hide his mistake. He didn't even care when he learned about what happened to Joffrey, he never thought of them as his children. Jaime definitely went over to the "dark side", that's what makes his redemption compelling for me.
[series spoilers, just to be sure]
The thing is, he cares even less about himself. It made no sense to escape in that situation (I repeat, 1 against 20,000) and it made no sense to kill Alton when he could've just beaten the shit out of him and obtain the same reaction (and it would've been 2 against 20,000, also Karstark could've killed Alton later and trigger the SoS moment). And I'm pretty sure Jaime cared for Tommen.
I don't understand how you people are saying they've screwed up either Jon or Dany's storylines.
[series]
[series]
1) Dany: ACOK/the second season of AGOT is meant to put Dany into a situation that drives her into paving her own way to victory instead of relying on others and nothing they've done so far has changed that course (at first they are at the mercy of the Red Waste, then the Thirteen who do nothing but play games with her), they've probably just made it even more understandable. In the meanwhile, they are making Xaro a much more important character & a clearer antagonist who'll return in a few seasons (honestly, I had a hard time remembering Xaro's character from the books, a pretty boring character).
2) Jon: from what I saw in the preview, it would seem like Jon will escape from the Wildlings, which will quite likely lead to the beginning of the chase in episode 8 and end up two episodes later in Qhorin's death.
2) Jon: from what I saw in the preview, it would seem like Jon will escape from the Wildlings, which will quite likely lead to the beginning of the chase in episode 8 and end up two episodes later in Qhorin's death.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It was Hodor and Osha
I think this was the weakest episode the series so far.
It almost felt like filler to me. There was barely any movement.
Jon is largely back where he was two episodes ago (and that whole arch with him and Ygritte just felt forced and a waste)
Tyrion and Cersei are essentially in the same place as are Tywin and Arya and Robb.
the only movement was Jamie/Cat and Theon. Dany moved a bit but hardly.
Maybe it's because I knew what happened in the books but the big "reveal" at the end just didn't get me.
This one was a miss for me.
edit: also does anyone know if they're gonna do (aCoK)
? I thought it was pretty important.
It almost felt like filler to me. There was barely any movement.
Jon is largely back where he was two episodes ago (and that whole arch with him and Ygritte just felt forced and a waste)
Tyrion and Cersei are essentially in the same place as are Tywin and Arya and Robb.
the only movement was Jamie/Cat and Theon. Dany moved a bit but hardly.
Maybe it's because I knew what happened in the books but the big "reveal" at the end just didn't get me.
This one was a miss for me.
edit: also does anyone know if they're gonna do (aCoK)
the whole thing with "the hand's chain"
PhoenixDark
Banned
I will agree in terms of Tyrion, but I thought everything else moved. He entered the city and made immediate changes, but since then he has seemingly done nothing but complain about Joffery. Which of course is a change from the books, not for the better
I really like what they did with Dany's story here. They took an incredbily dull storyline and made it interesting and suspenseful. On the other hand I absolutely hate what they did with Jaime. It's like they're attempting to take away the things that made him a complex and interesting character. In the behind the scenes thing after the episode one of the writers mentioned that in reality Jaime is just a monster who is willing to kill anyone. I could not disagree more with that interpretation of the character. Really disappointed with what they're going for there.
Wow they fucked up Jaime.
Also, Arya, her actions directly led to the hanging of 20 people; shouldn't she feel a bit more sad than what she did? She didn't seem to care at all. This didn't happen in the book either I think, which makes it just fuck up her character.
Him killing Alto like that and the guard gives him no redeemable qualities at all. How are we supposed to start to like him in season 3 and 4 after this? Ok, maybe not like him, but in both season 3 and 4 he starts to redeem himself and we get to understand him. But after this, murdering 2 people like that, will not make this possible at all...
Also, Arya, her actions directly led to the hanging of 20 people; shouldn't she feel a bit more sad than what she did? She didn't seem to care at all. This didn't happen in the book either I think, which makes it just fuck up her character.
Tyrion is definitely the missed opportunity of this season.
ACOK
ACOK
After the next episode they are going to have him emerge from the keep and be cheered at by all of the City's defenders amidst this great battle. And for what? There is likely no chain, no sign that Tyrion has done anything to prepare for Stannis. Tyrion's finest moment will feel almost entirely unearned.
Steelyuhas
Member
Tywin Lannister was a tiny bit involved with killing of the Targaryen kids.
I don't know that the actress has any range besides: "I AM MAD MAD MAD, STORMBORN, MAD MAD MAD." Which is hilarious considering the history of insanity in her family.
As long as they still build up the relationship between Jon and Qhorin, to make the later event more impactful, I'm fine with whatever route they take to get there. I also think they need to tie up the loose ends regarding why Qhorin would completely abandon Jon like that or why Ghost is nowhere to be found.
Also
They totally gave away the ending... so obvious. At least in the books it was more subtle and you really did think WTF!!???, but here I just can't see anyone getting fooled by it. They gave Rodrik (a pretty minor character I'd say and with a off screen death) a pretty brutal scene scene where he gets killed, but one of the major characters, Bran, was shown like that? Yeah... no. They should've made it less obvious. Sometimes I just want to slap the director on this series. Most changes are acceptable because it is a new medium and inner monologues just doesn't work, but this... they had it the books already, written out and all...
Really? There's nothing that points to it being them, and the way the bodies look, it looks like they were kids not adults, let alone someone as big as hodor.
(ACOK)
It happened almost exactly the same in the books. If you didn't pick up that Bran and Rickon's "death" was fake in the book as well, then you aren't a very observant reader.
StriKeVillain
Banned
Baited. :lol
It's not that she has no range (she's shown she has, though she's not the best actress in the world), it's the showrunners who just put in the kind of situations where she "has to" show that kind of emotion. It's the same problem Cersei's character had last season.
Also, the first change I truly DO NOT like at all is [ACOK and maybe early ASOS]
how they are seemingly going to change how & why Catelyn frees Jaime. I liked it much more when it was, again, just Cat freeing him for being so devastated by news of Bran & Rickon's death, not just because Robb can't keep a small fight from happening between his underlings. It's much more understandable to free him because she just wants the two last (in addition to Robb) Stark children to be returned safely to her instead of just punishing Jaime when time comes.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
I just prefer how the books handled Jon's arc thus far. I find it more exciting than what they've done so far on the show. And character development wise, it makes more sense for all involved.
ACOK- Jon spoilers
TV Jon comes across as an indecisive dolt, whereas Book Jon spared Ygritte and decisively lets her go. Then he gets back and learns more from Qhorin, wargs into Ghost, spies the massive Wildling camp, they have to go rescue the wounded Ghost after he was attacked by the eagle skinchanger and they try to flee from Rattleshirt, as the other Night's Watch rangers are picked off one by one with the eagle chasing them.
That pursuit was just really exciting in the books, so when Jon and Qhorin were cornered it was really suspenseful. Ygritte is great in the show, but we're presumably going to get plenty of her next season, while Qhorin will be dead. Having Jon and Qhorin being chased by Wildlings and warging just seems more exciting than Jon and Ygritte chatting about blue balls, especially when we have all of next season for Jon and Ygritte.
That pursuit was just really exciting in the books, so when Jon and Qhorin were cornered it was really suspenseful. Ygritte is great in the show, but we're presumably going to get plenty of her next season, while Qhorin will be dead. Having Jon and Qhorin being chased by Wildlings and warging just seems more exciting than Jon and Ygritte chatting about blue balls, especially when we have all of next season for Jon and Ygritte.
"I'm a free woman", I was laughing pretty hard at that awesome line.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Not sure how I feel about the bro/sister connection between Tyrion and Cersei. I understand if they are trying to give here a little more depth but it just seemed odd. She never ever admits to Joff being anything but perfect in the books for the most part.
I'm normally fine if they change the stories to make it work for television. Hell I'm even fine with the Cersei changes since I think of the show as an adaptation and not a direct copy of the books but ACOK
I am baffled by Jon's change. And I don't know how that is possible with 3 episodes left and episode 9 will presumably encompass the battle of Blackwater. I thought we would get a little bit of Ygritte toward the end when they catch him and Qhorin but at this point, I don't know how they're going to resolve this meaningfully.
I usually don't mind most of the changes, but in this episode there are some that do not make any sense. The Alton thing is so wrong and unneccesary.Three scenes beyond the Wall about Jon being a virgin? They are in the most "mysterious" land in Westeros, with an amazing scenery btw, and they talk for 10 minutes about Jon's boner. Who wrote this shit?
I don't really care about Qarth since it sucked in the books too.
There are some good parts too. Farley is amazing as I'm glad NCW is back, I loved the final scene with them. Theon parts are good as usual. And there's talking Rickon too! I love the new scenes with Arya and Tywin but it's time to move on. I miss Davos and Stannis btw.
You can really see the difference between the real scenes and the new scenes, D&D just can't imitate GRMM style most of the time. The writing feels cheap, half assed and ultimately plain bad. Like the 15 minutes about Jon's cock.
One of the worst episodes of the season for me.
I don't really care about Qarth since it sucked in the books too.
There are some good parts too. Farley is amazing as I'm glad NCW is back, I loved the final scene with them. Theon parts are good as usual. And there's talking Rickon too! I love the new scenes with Arya and Tywin but it's time to move on. I miss Davos and Stannis btw.
You can really see the difference between the real scenes and the new scenes, D&D just can't imitate GRMM style most of the time. The writing feels cheap, half assed and ultimately plain bad. Like the 15 minutes about Jon's cock.
One of the worst episodes of the season for me.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I don't think they can, but I hope they do. This feels like the first storyline they may totally fuck up by unnecessary changes.
ASOS
They've done a really poor job with Jon's mentor figures. Mormont is great, but they're not given enough time together. Quorin is almost an afterthought, as of right now. No Donal Noye (although they'll need him, unless they give his lines to Maesar Aemon). It was believeable that Jon in the books would lead the defense of the Wall. TV Jon hasn't done shit but get his ass kicked and make stupid comments.
The Lamonster
Member
I'm annoyed with how sympathetic they're trying to make Cersei. In two episodes she's supposed to be
She is a cold-hearted bitch and there's no reason to make us care for her.
threatening Sansa with Ilyn Payne killing her if the Lannisers lose the battle.
I like what the show is doing, I welcome these subtle character changes.
I think what you said is valid as well, espcially about the look, so I guess we are trying to guess at the intentions of the writers.
I don't recall there being walnuts mentioned in the books, and since both corpses are so badly burned, I'm doubting there will be any tar involved either. I guess maybe kids heads on spikes wouldn't play well with the home audience or something.
This thread had devolved into pedantic bookreader whining.
Ruined Jamie's character? He pushed Bran out a freakin' window!! He slaughtered Ned's men in cold blood! He's irredeemably evil at this point. Oh oh oh he killed a Lannister. Who cares. The TV audience doesn't know about the kinslaying thing. The scene with Jaime taking to Catelyn could not have been done better. Loved it.
Ruined Jamie's character? He pushed Bran out a freakin' window!! He slaughtered Ned's men in cold blood! He's irredeemably evil at this point. Oh oh oh he killed a Lannister. Who cares. The TV audience doesn't know about the kinslaying thing. The scene with Jaime taking to Catelyn could not have been done better. Loved it.
It's not essential. It's just *ACOK*
something that Tyrion is responsible for that turns the tide of the battle. In the books Tyrion essentially saves King's Landing and gets no credit for it. In the show, he's done nothing to deserve real credit.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Yeah I agree for the most part. The stuff with Tywin has been fantastic.
I only read the first book but I am baffled at how dumb Jon is on the show right now.
I always got the impression that Jon would have been a better Rob then Rob if roles were reversed. I always got the impression Jon was as mentally advanced and physically gifted as Rob but was a little more driven which put him over the edge.......this episode makes me feel Jon is pretty much a clueless boy that doesn't even understand the basics of tracking, traveling, knot tying and how to perform his current job as scout/ranger. In truth an immature kid that can fight you but can't really perform any other duty with confidence.
I mean you would think some of these basic concepts would of been drilled into his head living in winterfell.
I always got the impression that Jon would have been a better Rob then Rob if roles were reversed. I always got the impression Jon was as mentally advanced and physically gifted as Rob but was a little more driven which put him over the edge.......this episode makes me feel Jon is pretty much a clueless boy that doesn't even understand the basics of tracking, traveling, knot tying and how to perform his current job as scout/ranger. In truth an immature kid that can fight you but can't really perform any other duty with confidence.
I mean you would think some of these basic concepts would of been drilled into his head living in winterfell.
Yes really. In CoK
all Dany does is walk through the desert, ask for help in Mereen, get turned down, and then leave after burning down the House of Undying. Her story only gets interesting in the last two chapters when she escapes the House and then meets Arstan.
On the side though, I can't seem to understand why Pyat Pree is working with Xharo. The only thing I can think of is that Xharo has all the money. But why doesn't Pyat just kill him and take it? He killed a whole room of people by himself, yet for some reason he tolerates Xharo sharing power with him? Doesn't make much sense but I guess we'll have to wait and see how that story plays out.
Anybody want to speculate on how [series spoiler]
Barristan Selmy will be reintroduced? HBO obviously can't hide the fact that he's Arstan like Martin did when it was all just text in the original books, but I'm wondering if he'll just never be incognito or if it will be one of those things where the AUDIENCE knows who he is but Dany & company are in the dark.
As opposed to charred corpses of kids.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Was the ending last night a rouse?
Gotcha. [COK]
Yeah, they can totally just attribute some other 'turning the tide' moment to him. The Wildfire alone would do it.
Essentially yes. But aside from knowing who the winning side is, you can argue that nothing within the battle will matter either.
The chain saves the city...without it, the ships land and the chances of the wildfire destroying the city from within is likely. From Tyrion's perspective, he saved the city and is later tossed aside for more "heroic" actors to play that role...it's a defining moment in his story arc.
I'm not sure you used irredeemable correctly.
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