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[Chinner]

somebody at work says that greece's financial debt and their vote of no to austerity shows that socialism is a failed concept.

is this true?

 

[Theonik]

Wot

 

[jakonovski]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

 

[Xando]

According to sources in Brussels, 16 of the other 18 countries in the eurozone are in favor of letting Greece leave the eurozone and they will have to weigh up the cost of any agreement to keep Athens in the single currency.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/199086/...domestic-backing-for-last-gasp-effort-at-deal

 

[East Lake]

I'm not sure how that relates to my post, as obviously if there is no deal there is no default.

But to clarify, what I was saying is that one can't draw a conclusive inference (as some are) as to whether the people who voted "No" are actually willing to exit the Euro if it means they will no longer have to accept conditions set by the creditor nations.

What people were told their vote meant, what people are interpreting the outcome to mean, what the realistic and plausible scenarios of the referendum are, do not all align.

As an example, people were told that capital controls would be lifted today, presumably regardless of the outcome of the vote. The realistic scenario in the event of a "No" as has unfolded is that the provision of ELA would remain unchanged or tightened, meaning an extension of capital controls and an increased likelihood of bank insolvency.

As another example, people were told this would strengthen the bargaining hand and/or accelerate a deal being made. It has in fact made an agreement less likely, from my understanding, and any agreement made will actually need to be more severe given the impact of the last week or so's events. The imposition of capital controls brought about by the second bailout lapsing in itself has apparently dramatically increased the necessary size of a third bailout.

I don't really get much of the hand wringing about this. To some extent it's like saying Greeks don't know the future and thus cannot vote to reject or accept austerity. Greek and other European politicians were openly saying they are choosing between a new deal or grexit, so it's not like there wasn't sufficient warning.

 

[iidesuyo]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

In your words, "what kind of a piece of shit is Greece if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in its own country?"

 

[Theonik]

In your words, "what kind of a piece of shit is Greece if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in its own country?"

They buy a big portion of their medicine for obvious reasons given that many are patented. Without money they cannot buy them.

 

[PdotMichael]

In your words, "what kind of a piece of shit is Greece if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in its own country?"

like in all countries. If something is bad we blame the EU and Bruessels.

A general problem with the EU it's just too easy to blame faceless supernational institutions

 

[Joni]

They buy a big portion of their medicine for obvious reasons given that many are patented. Without money they cannot buy them.

So they stopped paying for something this important eight months ago.

 

[East Lake]

Amazing how quickly we go back to blaming Greeks after they reject perhaps one of the most spectacular failures in economic history. If only Athens would take responsibility for this austerity.

 

[Theonik]

So they stopped paying for something this important eight months ago.

Well to do that they need money. This has always been one the main places where money has been sucked out of from the start of the crisis. With the economy completely collapsing since before the elections revenues have plummeted further.

 

[Chariot]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

I wonder if they play the Brüning game.

 

[HarryHengst]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/199086/...domestic-backing-for-last-gasp-effort-at-deal

And this is why the EU is doomed to be a failure. Sharing a currency without going into a complete union like the US is just madness. It leads to politicians having to be careful about national voters, so even if Merkel understands that Greece needs huge debt writeoffs, she cant give it because of voters at home.

 

[benjipwns]

Nah bruh, Spain got this on lock with over a dozen of sovereign defaults since 1500. We've turned this shit into a sport.

WORLD CHAMPIONS, BABY!

All hail bad governance and military adventures conceived in vino veritas.

Defaulting four times in four years seems like stat-padding.

 

[Theonik]

They were just asserting dominance.

 

[Vampirolol]

And this is why the EU is doomed to be a failure. Sharing a currency without going into a complete union like the US is just madness. It leads to politicians having to be careful about national voters, so even if Merkel understands that Greece needs huge debt writeoffs, she cant give it because of voters at home.

I remember when I was at school in 2000 and teachers explained what the Euro was. I asked "so are we going to be like USA?" and the answer was "that's a dream, it's impossible!", same answer that everyone gave me years later. This paradox isn't healthy for weaker countries like mine.

 

[benjipwns]

Makes me think the whole Civil War was just some scheme to pad the numbers.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

Each EU member is an independent nation. How can EU be responsible for something it doesn't control? If EU is to be responsible for Greece, then EU needs to have control over Greece. This would mean giving up independence. As long as Greece is an independent nation, it will be responsible for its own citizens.

Stop blaming EU. NOBODY forced Greece to take so much debt that the weight of it broke the Greek economy's neck. I'm sure we will send humanitarian aid if there will be starving people on the streets, but ultimately being independent nation means that you are responsible for your own actions.

I would gladly loan the money to Greece if I had any faith that they would be able to pay back at some point. But instead of focusing on reforms Greece needs to make, people are focusing on blaming EU. That is not constructive and ignores the core issues. I'm afraid that if we throw money at Greece now, or forgive debt, it will only be a matter of time before history repeats itself because the structural issues Greece society has were not fixed.

 

[EloKa]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

Germany is already preparing a human aid campaign that includes free medicine.
But people are too busy with their evil german villain and nazi crap so this kinda flys below the radar.

 

[Wiktor]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

There is talk about doing diseaster relief-like humanitarian help to Greece. So sending the medicine instead of giving greeks money to buy them.

That said, failure to have drugs avaible is on Greek's goverment shoulders, not EU. You can't expect EU to shoulder all the responsibility without also giving it all the goverment power in Greece.
This is the main problem with Euro. A common currency can work long term only if it's followed by common goverment rule. EU expected it to happen naturally as a result of fiscal union, but it didn't.

 

[jakonovski]

Germany is already preparing a human aid campaign that includes free medicine.
But people are too busy with their evil german villain and nazi crap so this kinda flys below the radar.

Good on Germany, seriously. But as this thread shows, many people are really eager to throw Greece under the bus. Money is more important than people's lives. It's especially bad since it's no hardship for anyone in the EU to make sure the Greek people get medicine. So it's pure spite.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Good on Germany, seriously. But as this thread shows, many people are really eager to throw Greece under the bus. Money is more important than people's lives. It's especially bad since it's no hardship for anyone in the EU to make sure the Greek people get medicine.

EU will send humanitarian aid, but ultimately it was Greece that lived over its means. Greece has full control over their own budget. EU can't do anything about the fact that Greece spent more money than they could afford.

 

[PdotMichael]

Good on Germany, seriously. But as this thread shows, many people are really eager to throw Greece under the bus. Money is more important than people's lives. It's especially bad since it's no hardship for anyone in the EU to make sure the Greek people get medicine. So it's pure spite.

Health care is one of the core responsibilities of a national government. You can't blame other countries for it.

 

[Theonik]

The only thing that the EU is responsible for is the disaster that has been the Euro and the bailouts including the terrible policy in between.

Everything else is on Greece. At least in large part.

 

[Kin5290]

Good on Germany, seriously. But as this thread shows, many people are really eager to throw Greece under the bus. Money is more important than people's lives. It's especially bad since it's no hardship for anyone in the EU to make sure the Greek people get medicine. So it's pure spite.

Germany and other members of the Eurozone are not responsible for financing the basic government services of other countries, especially countries that are as corrupt and broken economically as Greece.

 

[East Lake]

EU will send humanitarian aid, but ultimately it was Greece that lived over its means. Greece has full control over their own budget. EU can't do anything about the fact that Greece spent more money than they could afford.

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

 

[Alabamaman]

Good on Germany, seriously. But as this thread shows, many people are really eager to throw Greece under the bus. Money is more important than people's lives. It's especially bad since it's no hardship for anyone in the EU to make sure the Greek people get medicine. So it's pure spite.

As i said before in this thread, Greece has over 100 tons of gold reserves. Selling those would buy every greek all the medicine they need.

 

[Shinjica]

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

Show the graphic before 2008

 

[MonorailCat]

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

That graph by itself is meaningless.
If their spending in 2008 was WAY WAY too high (which it was), it would still be too high at 80%.
And the main problem, tackling tax evasion and tax fraud in order to get a higher income so that you can spend more is still largerly ignored.

 

[PdotMichael]

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

It's more a result of an inefficiently working health care system because the healthcare spending isn't exactly worse than in other OECD countries.

 

[HarryHengst]

The only thing that the EU is responsible for is the disaster that has been the Euro and the bailouts including the terrible policy in between.

Everything else is on Greece. At least in large part.

So, the EU is responsible for everything that happened the last 5 years, including the current medicine shortage and such? Sounds about right, yes.

 

[jakonovski]

All I see is people making excuses for potentially letting people die from lack of common medicine. In the EU, in 2015.

At some point you have to have principles, and this is where I draw the line.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

Your graph starts at ~year 2008, when the fiscal crisis started. It was already too late by then. Didn't the crisis in Greece start when the global economic crisis crashed the global markets? Greece was also affected by this, but the debt policy in Greece had relied upon continuous GDP growth. Because of global economic crisis, Greek economy took a hit and the debt mountain suddenly became too much to bear.

That is my understanding of the situation. Greece was already in danger of default 5+ years ago. All these measures after that have been desperate attempts to avoid that.

The only reason why Greece originally came under danger of default was...they had more debt than they could afford.

 

[Wiktor]

So, the EU is responsible for everything that happened the last 5 years, including the current medicine shortage and such? Sounds about right, yes.

Only if you assume that Greek have the right to be financed by tax payers of other countries till they die.
EU didnt handle helping Greece like it should and there's plenty of blame to swing around, but the idea that Greece is some sort of innocent country that only had problems because the big bad EU powers decided to be mean to it is laugable.

 

[PdotMichael]

All I see is people making excuses for potentially letting people die from lack of common medicine. In the EU, in 2015.

At some point you have to have principles, and this is where I draw the line.

5 posts later and you are already ignoring the humanitarian help and the fact that the EU can't do anything to fix a broken healthcare system.

Just say you want to do some anti-EU rant.

 

[Wiktor]

All I see is people making excuses for potentially letting people die from lack of common medicine. In the EU, in 2015.

At some point you have to have principles, and this is where I draw the line.

Funny how the same principles somehow doesn't apply to current Greek goverment which let this situation excalate to this level.

And don't be ridiculous, people won't be dying from lack of medicine. EU will do humanitarian aid if necessary before this happens.

 

[HarryHengst]

Your graph starts at ~year 2008, when the fiscal crisis started. It was already too late by then. Didn't the crisis in Greece start when the global economic crisis crashed the global markets? Greece was also affected by this, but the debt policy in Greece had relied upon continuous GDP growth. Because of global economic crisis, Greek economy took a hit and the debt mountain suddenly became too much to bear.

That is my understanding of the situation. Greece was already in danger of default 5+ years ago. All these measures after that have been desperate attempts to avoid that.

The only reason why Greece originally came under danger of default was...they had more debt than they could afford. Nobody forced Greece to take that.

Being in the Euro kinda forced Greece to take the debts. I guess you could argue they should have run a budget-neutral policy, but even countries like Germany and the Netherlands dont manage that. Basically, the euro never should have happened and even it should, it should not have included such fundamentally different nations like Germany and Greece.

 

[MonorailCat]

All I see is people making excuses for potentially letting people die from lack of common medicine. In the EU, in 2015.

At some point you have to have principles, and this is where I draw the line.

If Greece can't handle their health care on their own and expects the EU to do everything for them, then maybe their next proposal should include a EU-Governing council for Greece that replaces their current government.

 

[jakonovski]

5 posts later and you are already ignoring the humanitarian help and the fact that the EU can't do anything to fix a broken healthcare system.

Just say you want to do some anti-EU rant.

Stop weaseling, you were among the first to try wash your hands with "don't blame the EU" when blame is of utter irrelevance. Either we are barbarians or we are not.

 

[benjipwns]

By living beyond its means did you mean implement one of the most successful reductions in spending ever?

 

[HarryHengst]

Funny how the same principles somehow doesn't apply to current Greek goverment which let this situation excalate to this level.

And don't be ridiculous, people won't be dying from lack of medicine. EU will do humanitarian aid if necessary before this happens.

Hmm yes, its the fault of the current government for not accepting a deal that had no intention at all to help Greece get out of the current mess, but instead make things even worse through forced privatizations at firesale prices, fucking up workers rights and other such fun things.

The EU should have given Greece a huge debt relief and started the printing presses and cooperated with the Greek government to start on reforming things like the tax office and such. Unfortunately the EU isnt interested in saving Greece, but in setting a precedent that There Is No Alternative to eternal austerity, else those uppity Italians and Portugese will think they too can refuse to follow German economic policies.

 

[PdotMichael]

Stop weaseling, you were among the first to try wash your hands with "don't blame the EU" when blame is of utter irrelevance. Either we are barbarians or we are not.

Your premise is already flawed because no one is dying in Greece bacause of lack of medicaments right now.

The incoming problem is just how will Greece imports its medicaments if the possible own currency is worth nothing.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Being in the Euro kinda forced Greece to take the debts. I guess you could argue they should have run a budget-neutral policy, but even countries like Germany and the Netherlands dont manage that. Basically, the euro never should have happened and even it should, it should not have included such fundamentally different nations like Germany and Greece.

Greece can quit Euro any time they want. They joined voluntarily, and can leave whenever they want.

Also, you could lower the standard of living until you can afford to live like you do. We in Finland have had to do this, cuts in education, elderly care, they want to increase retirement age etc. It hurts, but it must be done. This should have been done in Greece before the debt crisis though, there are only bad options now.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Stop weaseling, you were among the first to try wash your hands with "don't blame the EU" when blame is of utter irrelevance. Either we are barbarians or we are not.

In your opinion, does government of Greece have any responsibility in this? Current and previous.

 

[Alabamaman]

Stop weaseling, you were among the first to try wash your hands with "don't blame the EU" when blame is of utter irrelevance. Either we are barbarians or we are not.

Syriza are the barbarians, they have done nothing to help their people, only stalling and playing time.
Defaulting and printing drakhmas they can buy anything they need.

 

[Joni]

The EU should have given Greece a huge debt relief and started the printing presses and cooperated with the Greek government to start on reforming things like the tax office and such.

That wouldn't work because Greece isn't default on European loans at the moment. Europe has been helping Greece to transfer loans they would default on very fast to loans they don't need to repay for years to come. If you want to help Greece now, it is not EU that needs to give debt relief. It is the IMF and other partners.

 

[SmoothBrain]

Well to do that they need money. This has always been one the main places where money has been sucked out of from the start of the crisis. With the economy completely collapsing since before the elections revenues have plummeted further.

Am I interpreting that right that you blame austerity for a possible humanitarian crisis within the next couple of weeks (at least in medical supplies)?

Drug companies are reportedly owed more than €1.1bn ($1.2bn) by Greek hospitals and the state-run health insurer, after not being paid since December.
But they have promised to keep supplying the country on humanitarian grounds, according to Reuters.

So instead of securing humanitarian aid for medical and other supplies from the EU - which definitely wouldn't have been rejected - during the last week, Tsipras and co. made politics to "win" and hold a referendum about austerity measures of the next possible tranche which ran out 6 days before it was actually held.

The general consensus now is that there won't be another care package today and yet the one who spoke about the need to organize humanitarian aid was Schulz, not Tsipras. How come the greece PM isn't aware of the current situation of his own country?

If he is aware though (and I assume so), he is holding his own nation and the debts as a hostage, forcing a further escalation of the current situation (and everything since the elections point towards that direction) to increase the pressure on the creditors. If they don't budge to his conditions, he could still blame the EU for the lack of support and creating a humanitarian crisis in the first place. He just put himself in a win win position.

Otherwise the PM would be naive and I don't think that is the case. Chapeau! Brilliant move. He created a virtual bomb vest of debts and greeks and is willing to pull the trigger.

On a side note, it seems that Juncker was one of the 'partners' that Varoufakis mentioned in his blog. He was pretty clear on the remark about Eurozone partners being terrorists.

 

[Calabi]

So Greece is running out of medicine because of the crisis. This really is inexcusable, what kind of a piece of shit is the EU if it can't even guarantee the availability of basic medicine in member countries?

It's all been sacrificed at the altar of the banks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33416309

I said they'd end up running out of food and medicines but someone said I was being negative.

Its going to be interesting to see what's going to happen, whether people are going to continue arguing over who's fault it is, and who must be punished for their insolence and how bad that punishment will be. I hope the punishment is not too bad and nobody dies(of course that's a worse case scenario it'll never happen will it).

 

[Wiktor]

Stop weaseling, you were among the first to try wash your hands with "don't blame the EU" when blame is of utter irrelevance. Either we are barbarians or we are not.

Well.then we're not barbarians and the drugs won't run out. So..what are you exactly complaining about?

 

[Aureon]

In your opinion, does government of Greece have any responsibility in this? Current and previous.

Of course it does! In getting to the situation that 2008 was. Has to be noted that most governments were in similar situations of debt, albeit not import\export - and that was the fault of the Euro, or if we want to be specific, Greece's decision to join it.

Since the de facto commissioning of 2010-11, though, greece's can hardly be at fault for anything, They haven't even been calling the shots.