-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
- Status
DyslexicAlucard
Member
I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but if a common card is vital to a deck you're interested in, or it would help you win more consistently, I say craft it. It's not dust efficient, but I think it makes up for it in time and fun efficiency. ^_^
Put another way, it'll help you win more games, which will give you dust at a faster per-game rate. Plus, it'll improve your enjoyment.
Zalae is playing at the top of the legendary ranks, not just in the doldrums with rank 1300 legend.
I'm not sure how is that relevant here. Does he bring it to tournaments too? no. StrifeCro did, look how it worked out for him.
Is Justicar good in midrange? sure, but the deck right now is not very good, it has many bad match ups. Streamers play lots of things, they're streamers, that's what they do. Even Zalae gets tired of playing patorn all the time I guess?
Do you had a decklist?
BlackBuzzard
Banned
NA qualifiers Round of 16 WB has begun
Playing today.
Archon Zalae vs Purple Drank(former Archon)
TSM Trump vs Bloodyface
Fibonacci vs JAB
Phonetap vs Muzzy
SilentStorm vs Luchesi
Neobility vs Strelzik
Archon Amaz vs Hotform
Archon Firebat vs Vlps
Playing today.
Archon Zalae vs Purple Drank(former Archon)
TSM Trump vs Bloodyface
Fibonacci vs JAB
Phonetap vs Muzzy
SilentStorm vs Luchesi
Neobility vs Strelzik
Archon Amaz vs Hotform
Archon Firebat vs Vlps
Both Strifecro and Zalae seem to believe it is good enough for tournaments (I asked Zalae directly, to be clear), and I am literally watching Zalae stay in the top 200 in legend with it.
I'm saying the empirical evidence does not agree with you. Yes, murloc/Justicar paladin is not as good as Patron, but by that measure, there is literally only 1 competitive deck in the game.
crazygambit
Member
Exactly. Since it doesn't matter, you might as well quit vs a guy that's gonna rope every turn.
Off the top of my head -- this is the core of it least:
2x Zombie Chow
2x Murloc Paladin
1x Coghammer
2x Truesilver
2x Consecration
2x Muster for Battle
2x Quartermaster
1x Justicar
1x Dr. Boom
1x Tirion
2x Tuskar Jouster
1x Lay on Hands
2x Shielded Minibot
1x Ironbeak Owl
2x Equality
2x Knife Juggler
I believe it also has 2x Piloted Shredders and a Loatheb.
Edit: It can also run 2x Haunted Creepers. That's over 31 cards just there, so tweak the deck to your preference.
StrifeCro is a long time player of midrange paladin, he just really likes it. Doesn't change that it was the weakest link in ATLC finale.
What some streamers plays on stream doesn't really mean you should too to climb. Like right now Kolento is playing control priest at rank 20 something, does that mean you should too? no. He just likes that deck. He was actually trying to climb from 3 digits yesterday, guess what he was playing. Patron and Hunter.
No, a deck doesn't have to be as good as patron, it's just too much worse than tier 1 decks and doesn't exactly do very well against others. It's merely ok. There are better paladin decks to play right now. I'm not sure what is confusing here.
What is exactly your empirical evidence here? You can look at meta snapshot created by several pro players. Isn't that more credible?
BananasWithGuns
Member
I like Justicar in Paladin just from the standpoint that Paladin has essentially become a flood the board class and keeping the board clear requires your opponent to run out removal early and often which makes the barrage of 1/1's extremely difficult to deal with in the later game. Not to mention the synergy with Quartermaster. I've also tested out running a Mukla's Champion for even more synergy which I think has potential.
Also on the subject on Justicar, I really think she has potential in Druid as well. Not midrange but maybe ramp or some sort of grinder Druid that hasn't been put together yet.
Also on the subject on Justicar, I really think she has potential in Druid as well. Not midrange but maybe ramp or some sort of grinder Druid that hasn't been put together yet.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Zalae just got 3-0d by former team-mate Purple.
I already explicitly offered my evidence.
Do you mean the tempostorm tier list here? That's not intended to tell you what the best decks are, it's significantly intended to prepare you for what you are likely to see on ladder. Or did you mean a different list? I don't actually know of a list that is explicitly intended to just be "here is a list of the best decks," but that doesn't mean it cannot exist, I just don't know about it.
Yes that list. I think you should read it again. Tier 3 means it's a ok deck. They actually recommend not to play it right now with explanation why and in the two weeks I've been trying to make it work, I fully agree with it. It's just bad against many popular decks right now and horrible against patron.
Of course no deck is amazing or horrible by its own, we're not in a bubble. Comparatively, it's pretty bad right now.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Again, that list is significantly intended to show what's common on the ladder. I'm asking for a list of the best decks.
Do you have a list that intends to show what decks are best? Again, I'm just asking for evidence to support your position.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I can see what he means with cards like Ragnaros or Sylvanas but there are more cards that are just lame RNG like Shredder, Unstable Portal, Imp-plosion or Dr. Boom where wild RNG swings can win or lose you the game.
Yes, he's talked about that at times too. He agrees that some forms of RNG increase skill, and that others do the opposite.
daemissary
Member
We'll see how long they maintain that position on RNG. If you're an old man like me, you will remember that early Magic the Gathering sets had a ton of coin flip crap and terrible mechanics.
Give them time.
Give them time.
I am actually fairly persuaded by the argument that all the "artificial" RNG in hearthstone (such as Ragnaros or Shredder) has less of an impact on the game than the "acceptable" RNG, card draw. Magic has considerably more card draw RNG than Hearthstone does (60 cards instead of 30 considerably increases card draw RNG), but for some reason people seem to think that's okay.
And it can be okay, but then, so can Piloted Shredder RNG.
It's a matter of perception, I think. Card draw is, typically, invisible. The only time when people really pay attention to it is when someone topdecks lethal or the exact card they needed.
If people could see Face Hunter drawing their perfect curve or Patron Warrior assembling the ideal Turn 7 death combo there would be a lot more rage everywhere.
The primary source of variance in MTG comes from Lands, and I agree that can be just as bad if not worse than Hearthstone RNG. It's one thing to get Doomsayer out of Shredder against a full board, but a whole other thing to go to turn 5 without playing a card because you simply don't have the mana to play anything (or what little you play gets removed). It's pretty funny that players can mulligan down to 4 cards vs 7 in pro-level Magic and still win, because the non-resources are extremely consistent even if resources aren't.
If people could see Face Hunter drawing their perfect curve or Patron Warrior assembling the ideal Turn 7 death combo there would be a lot more rage everywhere.
This is inaccurate, however. Magic has access to a lot more deck fixing. All the best decks in an eternal format like Modern will achieve very high levels of consistency. 4 copies of a card also means there's redundancy as card are removed. If your deck hinges on Auctioneer, for example, and they both get nuked, you're up the creek without the paddle. In Magic, you'll have 2 more, and maybe 3-4 other cards with similar effects.
The primary source of variance in MTG comes from Lands, and I agree that can be just as bad if not worse than Hearthstone RNG. It's one thing to get Doomsayer out of Shredder against a full board, but a whole other thing to go to turn 5 without playing a card because you simply don't have the mana to play anything (or what little you play gets removed). It's pretty funny that players can mulligan down to 4 cards vs 7 in pro-level Magic and still win, because the non-resources are extremely consistent even if resources aren't.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I think that's because nearly all card games operate on the fact that drawing a card from a deck is an inherently random thing. That's just how it works. Even stuff like Poker.
Did you even read the introduction part?
Average it's what it is. While..,
,
and...
It's definitely not just about what's common on ladder. Needless to say, what's common on ladder is very relevant to viability of a deck. You can't rank decks in a bubble, what you're asking isn't any good or possible.
Some RNG definitely needs skill he's not wrong. Esportal isn't one. If you play Deathlord for example, you must be prepared for whatever comes out, that's on you.
Professor Lich
Member
Just watched this, pretty great. I think Majordomo got buffed because I always thought secrets got removed when you turned into Ragnaros. Maybe that was armor.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
There was a short lived Freeze Mage variant that took advantage of that. I dont think armor goes away either, although it might.
Professor Lich
Member
Hopefully it stays to allow more Domo shenanigans but Mage is the best suited class for it.
Edit: Oh well.
Of course, I am familiar with the tempo storm tier list. I said it is significantly about what's popular, not exclusively.
Reynad has said on several occasions that this is how the list is constructed. Secret Paladin, for instance, was not put on top because it was legitimately better than Patron, but because it was 1) very good and 2) incredibly popular upon TGT release. Similarly, some decks (such as Mech Mage recently) rank highly because they happen to be good against the other popular decks, and not because mech mage sucked 2 months ago and is suddenly awesome now.
Again, I am well aware of tempo storm's tier list, and I know exactly how and why it's constructed. I am asking for a tier list that is specifically supposed to tell you what decks are good and which are not. If you just keep referring to the tempo storm list -- which is absolutely not intended to be a list of the best decks -- then I will assume you don't have such a list.
Which is fine, but there's no reason to keep hammering away and insisting that this is a "best decks" list when it isn't. If it were, we wouldn't see freeze mage and hand lock so frequently at tournaments.
Zalae just got 3-0d by former team-mate Purple.
I saw someone refer to that as a "grudge match," which surprised me, as I thought Purple left on friendly terms. Is that wrong?
BlackBuzzard
Banned
No clue really.
We only have the PR from Archon to go by. But Purple was the coach of Archon during ATLC and we all know how that went so it would not surprise me its a little less then mutual.
Like I said what you're asking for is unreasonable. You can't rank decks inside a bubble because it's irrelevant. Midrange paladin is bad right now because everything else people play right now is favored against it. You can't make an absolute list like that. That tempostorm list doesn't just tell you what's common on ladder because of that, it tells you what deck is good to play. It's simply logical.
I didn't "hammer" anything, this went into passive insults fast. smh
Zalae just got 3-0d by former team-mate Purple.
I saw someone refer to that as a "grudge match," which surprised me, as I thought Purple left on friendly terms. Is that wrong?
It's not unreasonable. Decks are better or worse without needing subjective considerations like current popularity.
I'm guessing you don't have what I'm asking for, then. You could have just said "no," and that would have been fine.
I will reiterate that two top tier players have either played the deck in major tournaments or have explicitly stated that yes, they believe it's a good deck. Further, I have seen people actually play it and compete at the top of the ladder.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Trump about to get 3-0d.
Nvm Bloodyface went for face.
Nvm Bloodyface went for face.
Kotetsu534
Member
Strange move to go face there. Think his odds were better clearing the board with double Hellfire (leaving himself at I think 14) and hoping to draw a Taunt-giver for his Molten next turn.
Maybe look where we started these posts, about Justicar being in midrange paladin and how "frequent" you think it is on ladder, then you're twisting the topic in another way and being dismissive because someone said something when not looking how well that deck actually performed in the tournament. I'm not sure what answer you were looking for but you just made me feel I wasted the last 20 minutes of my life. Reading just the last page should tell you everything.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Wtf Bloodyface. When you see your opponent holding the same cards for 2-3 turns its usually combo.
Kotetsu534
Member
Uh what. That was interesting.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
bloodyface disrespected druid combo and got rekt by trump, well deserved in my opinion.
Yes, it is definitely less frequent, I agree with that component. I do not agree it's bad or mediocre.
Recently I saw Kolento playing a Buff Priest deck that is nowhere on the tier list, yet he won almost all his games, and in the top of legend
Patron, Mid Druid, Secret Pally, tempo storm tier lists are not exactly good. Even patron warrior that allegedly had a 40% win on ladder shouldn't neccesarily be in the top list, is a hard to play deck but even then I had beat it lots of times
I think resources like Tempo Storm's tier list are useful, but also have downsides, as you allude to here. They tend to create rigid metagames where only 5-10 decks are accepted as "good," and any decks outside that are considered unorthodox, bad, or purely experimental.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The meta changes 2-3 times a day. We're talking about just a snap shot of last week's meta as if it is meant to be an accurate depiction today.
Kolento is an exceptional player, what he can do with some fun decks on his stream which is a 'show' for people to watch and have fun isn't very relevant. Would he bring that to a tournament when money is on the line? No. he didn't even bring his control priest he is very comfortable with last time, he brought dragons instead.
Some players have preference. like StrifeCro actually admits secret paladin is better than midrange but he just doesn't like playing it. You should play what you're comfortable with. If you're not comfortable playing patron, you don't play patron. It doesn't mean a deck is good or bad in general. Some might like to bring mech shaman to a tournament, maybe it makes sense in tournament format at times too, but everyone agrees that it's not a good deck. This is a card game with many possibilities, nothing is rigid but people can figure out what works best at any time with what's available and you can't sort these deck in absolute term that x is better than y all the times. You can sort them in how many good match ups they have against other outcomes. If one thing was just better than everything period, everyone would just play that. Thankfully that's never going to be the case.
- Status