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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?

Dahbomb

Member
Surprising for me. I also really hate Ancestral Knowledge. 4 mana for +1 card in my hand? Ugh.
A lot of times the overload cost doesn't factor much into play for Aggro Shaman.

You want to be using Ancestral Knowledge late game (when out of ammo) or when you have Lava Shock or when you have a Trogg in play to buff its damage or to dig for a burn to finish the game right there. In that case, it's not really a 4 mana play and the overload cost isn't that big of a deal.

Now Ancestral Knowledge in a Midrange Shaman deck would be really crippling. Have a bad turn now and then a bad turn the following one... could be game losing. It's why a lot of people thought it was a bad game and I told them it might not be that great of a card but Shaman will still use it because they are just that thirsty for card draw.


I just don't think that it adds that. Lava is 5 damage for 3. Does Crackle really add something that Lava doesn't? Even as a noob, I never felt satisfied when my RNG went high, it was just "Oh thank god I didn't get screwed over by RNG". I would have rather Imp-plosion just hit for 3 consistently, for example, than have the 2-4 range. That's a day one observation on my end.
Lava Burst is 5 damage for 3 mana up front and then 2 overload. Crackle is on average 5 damage for 2 mana up front, one overload. That's significantly better than Lava Burst.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Not sure what Shaman you're playing against where both aren't used!

Shaman wasn't always the smorc class. Prior to Tunnel Trogg, basically nobody played both.

I would have rather Imp-plosion just hit for 3 consistently, for example, than have the 2-4 range. That's a day one observation on my end.

My running theory for why Implosion was designed the way it was is that Blizzard wanted a spell in the game that double-scaled with spellpower, but that they felt it wouldn't have communicated well if it spat out a static number of imps. "It says that it spawns the same number of imps as the damage is does, but it always does 3 damage? I am confuzzled!"
 

Pooya

Member
Shaman needs to get one more 2 drop with overload 1 to be really broken. This is one slot that an overload card isn't bad.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Shaman needs to get one more 2 drop with overload 1 to be really broken. This is one slot that an overload card isn't bad.

If they do that, they couldn't curve out into Master of Evolution on Turn 4 as reliably. I would also say they don't need that for other reasons, namely that 2 mana overload 1 cards compete against Tuskarr Totemic. When you think about curving out, you realize that Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic are essentially competing with each other, as you don't want both in your opening hand unless you have the coin.

The trick is to realize that Totem Golem is essentially a 3-drop in the deck-building curve. So if they really want Shaman to be broken, you give them a non-overload 2 drop. Whirling Zap-o-matic was way too vulnerable to be used consistently in some kind of midrange deck, so something else with more consistency.
 

Dahbomb

Member
They need an actual 2 drop, not one with overload. Totem Golem already covers that.

I am going to make one just because:

5520a723.png
 

Apathy

Member
watching firebat and amnesiac play fun decks, they are doing a kitty paladin, and it was so funny vs a miracle rogue.Then they faced a face shaman and conceded on turn 3 cause the guy got double trog on turn 1 to golem on 2,
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
They already had the best 2 drop mech. Whirling Zap-o-matic is one of the strongest 2 drops in the game, it demands the other play remove it instantly more than Knife Juggler does, which is another 'Always removed' card.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
They already has the best 2 drop mech. Whirling Zap-o-matic is one of the strongest 2 drops in the game, it demands the other play remove it instantly more than Knife Juggler does, which is another 'Always removed' card.

Whirling Zap-o-Matic dies to a hell of a lot of things. It makes some sense to run it in an aggro deck where you are looking to end the game as quickly as possible but in any kind of slower deck, the 2 health with no immediate benefit is a real downer. All too often it is a Bloodfen Raptor, which is pretty bad. Especially if you drop it on Turn 3.
 

Ridli

Member
I'm starting to really enjoy the intangible benefits of quests like Beat Down, Only the Mighty, Meek Shall Inherit, and Destroy them All. It's nice to know you'll be able to be able to clear out a few dailies in 5 or 6 game regardless of the outcome. Makes the ladder a little more bearable.

Spell Master still feels like 10 spells to many though.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
There's a lot. I'll try to list most of what I think are the core cards in the set. I'm sure I'll miss some and there are probably some on the list that others will disagree with.

If people feel like there are certain cards I should add then I have no problems amending the list.

Code:
[B][U]Druid[/U][/B]
Wrath
Keeper of the Grove (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Druid of the Claw
Force of Nature (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Ancient of Lore (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Ancient of War

[B][U]Hunter[/U][/B]
Explosive Trap
Freezing Trap
Eaglehorn Bow
Unleash the Hounds
Savannah Highmane

[B][U]Mage[/U][/B]
Mana Wyrm
Sorcerer's Apprentice
Counterspell
Mirror Entity
Archmage Antonidas

[B][U]Paladin[/U][/B]
Equality
Aldor Peacekeeper
Lay on Hands
Tirion Fordring

[B][U]Priest[/U][/B]
Circle of Healing
Thoughtsteal
Auchenai Soulpriest
Cabal Shadow Priest

[B][U]Rogue[/U][/B]
Preparation (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Blade Flurry
Eviscerate
SI:7 Agent

[B][U]Shaman[/U][/B]
Earth Shock
Lightning Bolt
Feral Spirit
Lightning Storm
Doomhammer

[B][U]Warlock[/U][/B]
Flame Imp
Power Overwhelming
Shadowflame
Doomguard
Siphon Soul
Lord Jaraxxus

[B][U]Warrior[/U][/B]
Shield Slam
Armorsmith
Cruel Taskmaster
Slam
Frothing Berserker
Brawl
Gorehowl
Grommash Hellscream

[B][U]Neutral[/U][/B]
Abusive Sergeant
Leper Gnome (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Ironbeak Owl (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Knife Juggler (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Sunfury Protector
Wild Pyromancer
Acolyte of Pain
Big Game Hunter (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Earthen Ring Farseer
Defender of Argus
Azure Drake
Harrison Jones
Sylvanas Windrunner
Ragnaros the Firelord
Alexstrasza (Potential Nerf Candidate)
Ysera
Molten Giant (Potential Nerf Candidate)

been looking through this list and was wondering what the most enjoyable path is for me

when i played back in the day i spent all my dust on a paladin deck - no legendaries and nearly all the rares are cycling out of standard. also a lot of my good neutral cards are also cycling out (mostly naxx stuff)

so what's the best course of action to have fun winning low rank daily quests? i feel like dumping all my dust into one deck made 8 out of 9 daily quests tough.

now ive got a ton of potential dust from a big booster box i bought and i think i should handle it differently:

-1 or 2 neutral legendaries that work well in many classes

-4+ rares in the 3ish classes i most enjoy so they have a decent base to work with as different quests roll in

i think thatll make the grind more fun than having 1 super honed in deck and 8 useless ones - thoughts?
 
Did they really go with one card reveal today?

Wouldn't want to move too fast with one week left.
There's only like 70 cards left, gotta ration them out.

Can't wait for it to come out so I can be done watching and playing against the same decks and cards every day, and I've only been playing since December.
 
A lot of times the overload cost doesn't factor much into play for Aggro Shaman.

You want to be using Ancestral Knowledge late game (when out of ammo) or when you have Lava Shock or when you have a Trogg in play to buff its damage or to dig for a burn to finish the game right there. In that case, it's not really a 4 mana play and the overload cost isn't that big of a deal.

Now Ancestral Knowledge in a Midrange Shaman deck would be really crippling. Have a bad turn now and then a bad turn the following one... could be game losing. It's why a lot of people thought it was a bad game and I told them it might not be that great of a card but Shaman will still use it because they are just that thirsty for card draw.



Lava Burst is 5 damage for 3 mana up front and then 2 overload. Crackle is on average 5 damage for 2 mana up front, one overload. That's significantly better than Lava Burst.
I don't disagree that Crackle is better than Lava Burst, I just mean that Crackle doesn't really provide some amazing newbie experience that Lava Burst doesn't.

Regarding Ancestral Knowledge: I keep getting hands that start me out with Ancestral Knowledge + two 1-mana minions or something similar. I have to burn Ancestral on turn 3 because I have nothing else going on, and the tempo loss is just massive. Starting turn 4 or 5 with 2 or 3 crystals means I can't even always play what I got from the Ancestral, so I wonder if I would just be better off replacing Ancestral with something else. I tried Stormforge Axe, but it hasn't made a difference yet. I've also thought about Fire Elemental since it can be a great tempo or face play.

Shaman wasn't always the smorc class. Prior to Tunnel Trogg, basically nobody played both.



My running theory for why Implosion was designed the way it was is that Blizzard wanted a spell in the game that double-scaled with spellpower, but that they felt it wouldn't have communicated well if it spat out a static number of imps. "It says that it spawns the same number of imps as the damage is does, but it always does 3 damage? I am confuzzled!"
Interesting theory.
 
I spent 1200 dust on making that Aggro Shaman deck and couldn't go up a star. Constant back-and-forth.

I go back to Hybrid Hunter tonight and get rank 5 right away. -_- I swear that the game was giving me bad matchups constantly with Aggro Shaman, but when I play Hybrid Hunter, it thinks I'm playing Face Hunter and gives me a bad matchup for that...but it isn't bad if you're Hybrid.

How is Hybrid Hunter my favorite deck so far? I thought I would hate Hunters, but, the constant board presence just feels so strong, while Aggro Shaman feels like I'm praying every turn for the right draw to have a chance. Everything in Aggro Shaman is weak and dies easily; I almost never have board control 5 turns in. With Hybrid Hunter, the board is mine in 75% of my matches from beginning to end. That doesn't mean I always win, but I have the board at least, instead of YOLO spell spam hoping for RNG to let Crackle hit for more than its minimum score.

Edit: That's two seasons in a row that I got there with Hybrid Hunter. Special thanks to Dahbomb for convincing me to make the deck. At the time, I was skeptical that it would be that much better than the Face Hunter I was running.
 

fertygo

Member
I spent 1200 dust on making that Aggro Shaman deck and couldn't go up a star. Constant back-and-forth.

I go back to Hybrid Hunter tonight and get rank 5 right away. -_- I swear that the game was giving me bad matchups constantly with Aggro Shaman, but when I play Hybrid Hunter, it thinks I'm playing Face Hunter and gives me a bad matchup for that...but it isn't bad if you're Hybrid.

How is Hybrid Hunter my favorite deck so far? I thought I would hate Hunters, but, the constant board presence just feels so strong, while Aggro Shaman feels like I'm praying every turn for the right draw to have a chance. Everything in Aggro Shaman is weak and dies easily; I almost never have board control 5 turns in. With Hybrid Hunter, the board is mine in 75% of my matches from beginning to end. That doesn't mean I always win, but I have the board at least, instead of YOLO spell spam hoping for RNG to let Crackle hit for more than its minimum score.

Edit: That's two seasons in a row that I got there with Hybrid Hunter. Special thanks to Dahbomb for convincing me to make the deck. At the time, I was skeptical that it would be that much better than the Face Hunter I was running.

What your list again
 
But isn't Aggro Shaman supposed to just use minions as a threat/distraction while drawing into burst damage spells and Doomhammer+Rockbiter for two-turn lethals?
 

Hycran

Banned
They already had the best 2 drop mech. Whirling Zap-o-matic is one of the strongest 2 drops in the game, it demands the other play remove it instantly more than Knife Juggler does, which is another 'Always removed' card.

Whirling ZapO is barely a two mana card, but it is definitely not the strongest two drop in the game. So what if it does 6 or even 12 damage to your face if it can't control the board? It works well if you're stacked with direct damage, but otherwise the card isn't that good. The fact that most of the face decks don't even run it should show you it isn't at all OpieOp
 
What your list again
Here it is:

Hunter's Mark x1
Leper Gnome x2
Webspinner x2
Knife Juggler x2
Ironbeak Owl x1
Glaivezooka x1
Bear Trap x1
Freezing Trap x2
Quick Shot x1
Mad Scientist x2
Haunted Creeper x2
Animal Companion x2
Unleash the Hounds x2
Kill Command x1
Argent Knight x2
Eaglehorn Bow x1
Piloted Shredder x2
Loatheb x1
Savannah Highmane x2

Damn, I did it from memory! :-D

If I had Dr. Boom, I would DEFINITELY throw him in here. Sometimes I wish I had a second Hunter's Mark or Kill Command, but there's nothing in there I'm willing to lose for it.

The deck isn't amazing at anything, but with the right draws, I also think it has zero matchups worse than 40-60. I like that a lot, personally.

But isn't Aggro Shaman supposed to just use minions as a threat/distraction while drawing into burst damage spells and Doomhammer+Rockbiter for two-turn lethals?
I wish it worked more consistently for me!
 

Dahbomb

Member
Board control... with Aggro Shaman...

Ayy lmao!

You don't fight for board in Aggro Shaman, you fight to do more face damage.


Just like Face Hunter it's a bad fit for your playstyle. When you are piloting these decks you can't think of stuff like board control and card advantage.

Also the hero power is semi useful for Aggro Shaman, most notably the taunt to protect minions and the spell damage one. The spell damage in particular is really strong. However, you really just want Sir Finley to give you Hunter hero power.
 
Board control... with Aggro Shaman...

Ayy lmao!

You don't fight for board in Aggro Shaman, you fight to do more face damage.
The matches I usually win are those where I get Trogg protected by two Spirit Wolves so he can just go face in peace like he wants to.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
With Aggro Shaman, you basically mulligan for the early minions and hope you get them. If you wind up with a hand full of burn spells you probably just lose unless you can get a doomhammer with double rockbiter.

The deck is so damn draw-reliant that I feel awful and terrible every time I play it. I can play Face Hunter just fine but when I play Aggro Shaman i alternate between "well I just won on Turn 5" and "!@#$!@#". Makes me feel terrible and gross. I'll be a much happier man whenever some non-aggro Shaman deck actually becomes viable again.
 

Tarazet

Member
I tried running Aggro Shaman with Flametongue totem and more minions...it didn't go well.

I'm starting to think that Hybrid Hunter actually outperforms Aggro Shaman in this meta, and I generally just feel less helpless playing the deck. Surprising for me. I also really hate Ancestral Knowledge. 4 mana for +1 card in my hand? Ugh.

I cut one Ancestral Knowledge for Bloodmage Thalnos, but it actually weakened the deck. The reason you keep the two copies in there is so that you can fish for lethal. Just follow your game plan, make good trades where you can but generally just try to force the other player to act or else they die. If you have to play Trogg, Ancestral Knowledge, you should only do it if you have another 1 drop to play the next turn or are reasonably sure you will get one. Sometimes your opponents just have an answer for every turn, and you can still blow them away by saving your reach tools like Crackle for when you have a good chance of ending the game. Other times they stonewall you and there's not much that can be done. Concede and move on.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The matches I usually win are those where I get Trogg protected by two Spirit Wolves so he can just go face in peace like he wants to.
If you can protect even a Leper Gnome for a couple of turns then you win the game. Point is that Leper Gnome isn't winning by controlling board, it's doing by face damage. The Feral Spirits are there to protect your future face damage not control board, they too go face. Also the synergy aspect with the overload. Feral Spirits probably wouldn't even be run if they didn't do overload lmao.
 

Tarazet

Member
If you can protect even a Leper Gnome for a couple of turns then you win the game. Point is that Leper Gnome isn't winning by controlling board, it's doing by face damage. The Feral Spirits are there to protect your future face damage not control board, they too go face. Also the synergy aspect with the overload. Feral Spirits probably wouldn't even be run if they didn't do overload lmao.

I've never seen any Shaman deck since beta that didn't run Feral Spirit. Coin, Unbound Elemental into Feral Spirit is a terrifying board to face on turn 3. Great synergy with Bloodlust as well.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I've never seen any Shaman deck since beta that didn't run Feral Spirit. Coin, Unbound Elemental into Feral Spirit is a terrifying board to face on turn 3. Great synergy with Bloodlust as well.
I mean in Aggro Shaman.

Mech Shaman for eample doesn't run Feral Spirit. Card is good in slower Shaman decks but always felt weird to me in Aggro decks. The Tunnel Trogg synergy is what gets it to be played in that archetype.
 

Tarazet

Member
I mean in Aggro Shaman.

Mech Shaman for eample doesn't run Feral Spirit. Card is good in slower Shaman decks but always felt weird to me in Aggro decks. The Tunnel Trogg synergy is what gets it to be played in that archetype.

That's the ideal of course, and it's also hard to remove them both in one turn early on. You almost guarantee yourself something to use with Abusive Sergeant.. call it the Shaman equivalent of Shielded Minibot in a less elegant package.
 
so what's the actual weakness of an anyfin paladin deck? I don't really have any idea of how to play against it. Is it really just killing them before they get two anyfin turns?
 

butts

Member
Some mech mage at rank 17 adds me after beating my crappy Reno shaman deck just to call me try hard... where the fuck do these people come from??
 
With Aggro Shaman, you basically mulligan for the early minions and hope you get them. If you wind up with a hand full of burn spells you probably just lose unless you can get a doomhammer with double rockbiter.

The deck is so damn draw-reliant that I feel awful and terrible every time I play it. I can play Face Hunter just fine but when I play Aggro Shaman i alternate between "well I just won on Turn 5" and "!@#$!@#". Makes me feel terrible and gross. I'll be a much happier man whenever some non-aggro Shaman deck actually becomes viable again.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this before: Lightning Bolt is just one of my favorite cards. In MtG, my main deck was counterburn, and obviously Lightning Bolt is a core card in that deck. While this game's Lightning Bolt is weaker, there's so much nostalgia around the name that I just feel the need to use it. Even in a slower meta, I would have to find a way to make it work. I showed Dahbomb my Control Shaman deck I want to make when Standard hits, and I'm hoping it works.

Your Aggro Shaman thoughts 100% mirror mine, except I don't feel bad when I win. I never feel bad for playing to win in a game; it's the fault of developers if anything is in a poor state.

I did have a turn 4 win with the deck once, and I appreciate that. I don't feel bad about the 1200 dust I spent on the deck, though, because I assume Doomhammer, Wolves and the other miscellaneous stuff I bought will be useful in a month still.

I cut one Ancestral Knowledge for Bloodmage Thalnos, but it actually weakened the deck. The reason you keep the two copies in there is so that you can fish for lethal. Just follow your game plan, make good trades where you can but generally just try to force the other player to act or else they die. Sometimes they have an answer for every turn and you can still blow them away by saving your reach tools like Crackle for when you have a good chance of ending the game.
My win % really was ~50%. I wasn't doing poorly with the deck, I just wasn't making progress. I tried a minion-based version with Flametongue Totem, and that was terrible.

I really feel like the Shaman Hero Power holds everything back. It really was nice being able to pop out 2 face damage with my Hybrid Hunter when the cards weren't flowing like you would want, and that 2 damage made a significant difference in the outcome of the match. It's SO much better than Shaman, where I seem to get Healing Totem half the time, Wrath of Air 30% of the time (yay), and then 10% of the time I get the other two.

I think my #1 want for Hearthstone in the future is for Hero Powers to trigger a "Choose One" screen like Discover, and you have multiple options to choose from. Simple ideas for each class:

Rogue:
Equip a 1/1 weapon.
Give your weapon +1 attack.
Your character does not take damage when attacking this turn.

Warrior:
Gain 2 armor.
Give a minion +1 health.
The next minion you attack with a weapon takes an additional 2 damage.

Hunter:
Deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.
Give a minion +1 attack.
Summon a 1/1 Beast.

Mage:
Deal 1 damage to a character.
Gain +2 spell damage until your next turn.
Freeze the next single character that you deal damage to this turn.

Priest:
Heal a character for 2.
Look at the top card of your deck. You may shuffle it to the bottom of your deck.
Deal 1 damage to a minion at the start of the next 3 turns.

Paladin:
Summon a 1/1 Soldier.
Reduce a minion's attack by 1 this turn.
The next minion that attacks you takes 2 damage.

Shaman:
Healing Totem (0/2 heals all friendly characters for 1; yes, a small buff)
Stoneclaw Totem (0/2 taunt)
Wrath of Air Totem (0/2 +1 spell damage)

Remake Searing Totem into a 0/2 for 1 that cannot attack and deals 1 damage to a random enemy character at the end of your turn. This is more in-line with its WoW parallel.

Druid:
Gain 1 armor, and 1 attack this turn.
Heal a minion for 1 at the start of the next 3 turns.
Next turn only, gain 1 mana crystal.

Warlock:
Draw a card and take 2 damage.
Deal 2 damage to a friendly minion, and heal 2 life.
The next minion you play from your hand this turn gains +1 attack and health.

I think these are all in line with the "0 mana" spells we currently have for each class.
 

manhack

Member
yea shaman is gonna be gross in standard. I can't wait!

I wish I could believe this, but I'm still skeptical. I still was able to get golden shaman in the TGT meta, but it was on the back of mech shaman with some mid-range and bloodlust shaman mixed in.
 
so what's the actual weakness of an anyfin paladin deck? I don't really have any idea of how to play against it. Is it really just killing them before they get two anyfin turns?

Pretty much. The deck is incredibly weak to early game aggression.

Pressure them from the start and hope they don't draw into all their removal/healing.
 

manhack

Member
Pretty much. The deck is incredibly weak to early game aggression.

Pressure them from the start and hope they don't draw into all their removal/healing.

Yeah you have to hope they don't have answers to an aggressive start. If they drag you into late game it is very hard to beat unless your deck can deal with burst.
 

KuroNeeko

Member
so what's the actual weakness of an anyfin paladin deck? I don't really have any idea of how to play against it. Is it really just killing them before they get two anyfin turns?

I managed to Entomb their Old One Eye, but died to the 1213409357 damage they had on the board the next turn.
 

jgminto

Member
so what's the actual weakness of an anyfin paladin deck? I don't really have any idea of how to play against it. Is it really just killing them before they get two anyfin turns?
Playing constant threats with a midrange deck is usually too much to handle for Anyfin Paladin if they don't have perfect draws. Secret Paladin and Combo Druid stop it from being a top player.
I managed to Entomb their Old One Eye, but died to the 1213409357 damage they had on the board the next turn.
Priest vs Anyfin Paladin is basically the inverse of Warrior vs Freeze Mage in win rate. Honestly the best chance of winning with Priest is trying to steal their Anyfin somehow.
 
If you can protect even a Leper Gnome for a couple of turns then you win the game. Point is that Leper Gnome isn't winning by controlling board, it's doing by face damage. The Feral Spirits are there to protect your future face damage not control board, they too go face. Also the synergy aspect with the overload. Feral Spirits probably wouldn't even be run if they didn't do overload lmao.

Agreed. Honestly, often times, I just won games wherein I was able to play Doomhammer on Turn 5. That card is just bonkers and puts so much pressure on your opponents, especially when SMOrcman just has access to so many burn spells. The deck is literally just BURN spells and some minions. It is ridiculous.
 
errr I kind of accidentally deleted one of my only HS peeps on my friends list from gaf and forgot his corresponding ID#, sorry manhack!!

arcstrike#1175
 

IvorB

Member
just popped a golden al'akir

i want to dust it and spend it on 1 Classic neutral Legendary that is useful across a variety of classes - suggestions?

i'm thinking Slyvanis Windrunner

I have that Slyvanis card and she usually delivers. Plus it's fun to play and has led to some fun shenanigans. Your mileage may vary though.
 
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