That one time when the stars align and you get 6 doomsayers
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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
That one time when the stars align and you get 6 doomsayers
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
You need to play 2 C'Thun buffing minions to get it to 10 attack, that's turn 2 and 3, easily done in most cases.
If you can't make it somehow you either get a 4/5 or you delay playing him, both are fine.
I'm not convinced evolve is OP yet. It would definitely be bad if it was a 2 mana card.
I feel you need at least 3 minions on board to get value if you play it the same turn or you need to have your board survive the other players turn.
I've been playing a lot of shaman the past few months and even without evolve if you let me keep a board for a turn I will snowball it out of control. (Mukla's champion, Defender of Argus, Bloodlust = GG)
Most players play heavily for board early game and it is easy for shaman to get shut out if you lose board.
With alot of the naxx/GvG cards gone it may be easier to survive early game vs Paladin and Warlock.
I feel you need at least 3 minions on board to get value if you play it the same turn or you need to have your board survive the other players turn.
I've been playing a lot of shaman the past few months and even without evolve if you let me keep a board for a turn I will snowball it out of control. (Mukla's champion, Defender of Argus, Bloodlust = GG)
Most players play heavily for board early game and it is easy for shaman to get shut out if you lose board.
With alot of the naxx/GvG cards gone it may be easier to survive early game vs Paladin and Warlock.
veloxStrix
Banned
Amber Weaver is less about activating him and more about having a good Innervate target early game, in my opinion.
On the Aspirant over Wild Growth, assuming Aspirant is played on Turn 2, your opponent either has to waste a turn dealing with it (barring Warriors and maybe Rogues), which allows you to play a 3-drop - of which you have many compared to the typical Druid list that only runs Shades - unimpeded OR Aspirant lives providing you with a body and the ability to play a 4-drop. Wild Growth allows you to play a 4-drop, but you have a decent chance of simply playing a 3-drop anyways since you have so many. But Wild Growth also gets you closer to your top end... but with only Ragnaros, C'Thun (which would like you to play on curve anyways), and Dark Arakkoa that top-end isn't very strong or worth racing too.
On that note, Thaurissan really doesn't do much in here either.
I personally think Evolve is being overrated, but it's such a new effect that I doubt anyone will know until it comes out. I think a comparison to Bloodlust is apt though.
Professor Lich
Member
Those odds are too high for me!
And interesting thing about Evolving Onyxia, or any 8/8 9 Mana card, though is that you a 60% chance to get something that's also an 8/8 or worse. Only 4 10 mana cost cards have higher stats. (Y'Sharraj, Faceless Behemoth, and both Deathwings)
But whos effect will go off first?!
Here is my concede miracle dragon rogue.
probably can finish quests with it and have fun
I don't like playing 2 scaled nightmare but that guy has like 8 health and it's a dragon and quite threatening still, so you can drop one of them for health gain pretty much. (edit:Actually I'm dumb, you could just play Chillmaw.)
Twilight guardian is probably one of the better taunts for the cost still and blackwing for board control is pretty good.
You could build a malygos deck like this too but I'm not sure it would be very good. Xaril can give you a +3 attack card that works very well here and not with malygos.
probably can finish quests with it and have fun
I don't like playing 2 scaled nightmare but that guy has like 8 health and it's a dragon and quite threatening still, so you can drop one of them for health gain pretty much. (edit:Actually I'm dumb, you could just play Chillmaw.)
Twilight guardian is probably one of the better taunts for the cost still and blackwing for board control is pretty good.
You could build a malygos deck like this too but I'm not sure it would be very good. Xaril can give you a +3 attack card that works very well here and not with malygos.
Grayfox341
Member
lol okay
Doesn't fit their plan. Freeze Mages don't have much use for value minions. They want three things: card cycle, stall, and efficient spell damage for the burst turns. Kirin Tor Mage doesn't help with any of that. It's not a bad card, but it's just a really tight deck in terms of what fits into it.
I found a way to fit two Demented Frostcallers in there, but I'll have to see if they pull their weight. Might end up using the new Kobold instead.
if they ever move cards into base sets from old expansions or adventures, Reno would make it in. It's a well designed card
Ancient of War?
That's good feedback. Thank you.
War doesn't transform, it just gets stat buff (that can be silenced).
Brode said that you would get both uproot and the other form (forget the name).
Yeah, but the card looks the same either way.
I've been considering the various effects of Evolve. It's certainly one of the more interesting mechanics. Is it useful? Here's my take. There's two things to consider with your minions with Evolve: The Best possible minions to transform and figuring out what are the best results of a transformed minion. And also, there's the Spell and the Battlecry version from Professor Oak.
What minions to use Evolve on? - There are some clear winners and some clear losers.
First off, using it on your Totems (hero power) seems strictly worse. Not only are they considered 1-cost, so upgrading will only get you a 2-cost minion, but the time spent getting them summoned is slow. And with so many Totem synergy cards now in-play, you would be actually doing yourself a disservice by altering them. Totems (cards) on the other hand, seem okay candidates, much in the same way a normal 2/3-drop would work.
Evolve hits your entire board, so some would say that building a board is key. Ergo, perhaps (only suggesting) the best way to go is with minions that will discourage your opponent from killing/hitting them. Dragon Egg or Ancient Watcher for example. The new Silithid Swarmer maybe. Folks will probably ignore these kinds of minions, rather then give you free trades or tempo.
The next kind would be minions in which you can control the summoning. This would be the Elemental from Hammer of Twilight, Wobbling Runts, and token spawning minions like Tuskarr Totemic. You get a free body and then proceed to evolve it into something with more oomf.
Lastly would be minions you play at 0-cost. Murloc Tinyfin or Wisp maybe. But also Dread Corsair, Thing From Below, Volcanic Drake. Because their associated cost was circumvented. Sadly, Molten Giant does not get included.
Horrible candidates include: Practically all Overload minions. Also, cards from a very small pool of mana-cost (meaning 10-cost minions). You gamble harsher if trying to Evolve into a 10-cost card.
What are the best minions to receive? - These are a pretty obvious, but I'll list them anyway.
Big stats. A big beefy minion that can bypass any bad effects like Injured Blade Master, Flamewreathed Faceless, or Earth Elemental.
Taunt. A taunt minion will give some protection for your other minions on the board in case they need some setup or are flimsy.
Divine Shield. Of course a good result, provided it isn't involving some sort of catch.
Deathrattle. Probably the most exciting because of their effects for dying, which doesn't punish your loss of tempo.
Charge. Duh.
Horrible outcomes: Every single Battlecry minion that exists. Yeeuch. This is the #1 reason why I think Evolve will be balanced. There are a TON of Battlecry minions out there -- so much in fact that I'm actually thinking about mandatory Young Brewmasters in each Shaman deck to take advantage of the crazy potential Battlecries. Also, Windfury minions, ironically enough, since they probably won't be able to pull off their attack before getting soft targeted.
When it comes to both Evolve vs. Master of Evolution, both of them are meant for different scenarios. MoS is definitely an on curve style evolution, turning your 3-drop into an insane 4-drop (there are a crap ton of 4-drops now). Evolve, however, is definitely meant for AoE board swings. You'll probably want to either play out a hand and Evolve right away, OR, combo it with your remaining mana. Inspire minions are actually probably really good for this because you can Evolve at the start of your next turn and hit the hero power if the outcome is favorable.
What minions to use Evolve on? - There are some clear winners and some clear losers.
First off, using it on your Totems (hero power) seems strictly worse. Not only are they considered 1-cost, so upgrading will only get you a 2-cost minion, but the time spent getting them summoned is slow. And with so many Totem synergy cards now in-play, you would be actually doing yourself a disservice by altering them. Totems (cards) on the other hand, seem okay candidates, much in the same way a normal 2/3-drop would work.
Evolve hits your entire board, so some would say that building a board is key. Ergo, perhaps (only suggesting) the best way to go is with minions that will discourage your opponent from killing/hitting them. Dragon Egg or Ancient Watcher for example. The new Silithid Swarmer maybe. Folks will probably ignore these kinds of minions, rather then give you free trades or tempo.
The next kind would be minions in which you can control the summoning. This would be the Elemental from Hammer of Twilight, Wobbling Runts, and token spawning minions like Tuskarr Totemic. You get a free body and then proceed to evolve it into something with more oomf.
Lastly would be minions you play at 0-cost. Murloc Tinyfin or Wisp maybe. But also Dread Corsair, Thing From Below, Volcanic Drake. Because their associated cost was circumvented. Sadly, Molten Giant does not get included.
Horrible candidates include: Practically all Overload minions. Also, cards from a very small pool of mana-cost (meaning 10-cost minions). You gamble harsher if trying to Evolve into a 10-cost card.
What are the best minions to receive? - These are a pretty obvious, but I'll list them anyway.
Big stats. A big beefy minion that can bypass any bad effects like Injured Blade Master, Flamewreathed Faceless, or Earth Elemental.
Taunt. A taunt minion will give some protection for your other minions on the board in case they need some setup or are flimsy.
Divine Shield. Of course a good result, provided it isn't involving some sort of catch.
Deathrattle. Probably the most exciting because of their effects for dying, which doesn't punish your loss of tempo.
Charge. Duh.
Horrible outcomes: Every single Battlecry minion that exists. Yeeuch. This is the #1 reason why I think Evolve will be balanced. There are a TON of Battlecry minions out there -- so much in fact that I'm actually thinking about mandatory Young Brewmasters in each Shaman deck to take advantage of the crazy potential Battlecries. Also, Windfury minions, ironically enough, since they probably won't be able to pull off their attack before getting soft targeted.
When it comes to both Evolve vs. Master of Evolution, both of them are meant for different scenarios. MoS is definitely an on curve style evolution, turning your 3-drop into an insane 4-drop (there are a crap ton of 4-drops now). Evolve, however, is definitely meant for AoE board swings. You'll probably want to either play out a hand and Evolve right away, OR, combo it with your remaining mana. Inspire minions are actually probably really good for this because you can Evolve at the start of your next turn and hit the hero power if the outcome is favorable.
ManBearCat
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think evolve is a bit overrated. But it could be good in shaman I suppose. I think the card might turn out to be a bit of a win more card and perhaps replaced with something that is more consistent at swinging a losing match rather than winning a match harder inconsistently due to RNG. One of shaman's problems (typically midrange) is actually getting back the board once your opponent has tempo.
I personally think evolve will be underwhelming.
It goes directly against overload, so it is in the worst possible class for it.
I only see it working if you can do it to low efficiency/injured minions as there are far too many bad minions that the result could be.
I think its going to be a Troggzor of this expansion.
It goes directly against overload, so it is in the worst possible class for it.
I only see it working if you can do it to low efficiency/injured minions as there are far too many bad minions that the result could be.
I think its going to be a Troggzor of this expansion.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Is it Tuesday yet
toddhunter
Member
Evolve doesn't need a board. Silver hand knight + evolve is 6 mana to get a 6 drop and a 2 drop.
Regent + hero power + evolve is 6 mana, get a 4 drop and 2 2 drops.
Bomb lobber + evolve is deal 4 damage and get a 6 drop for 6 mana.
Sure they are all combos, but it shows you don't need a board of stuff to get value out of it, even before you use it as a heal or to prep for bloodlust.
Regent + hero power + evolve is 6 mana, get a 4 drop and 2 2 drops.
Bomb lobber + evolve is deal 4 damage and get a 6 drop for 6 mana.
Sure they are all combos, but it shows you don't need a board of stuff to get value out of it, even before you use it as a heal or to prep for bloodlust.
Normally I would say that Evolve is yet another mediocre win more card for Shamans...
But it costs god damn 1 mana. Turn 7 you can play Fire Elemental + Evolve and probably transform a Totem too.
Turn 3 Tuskar, turn 4 Tuskar plus Evolve.
The one mana makes it very easy to combo. The way I see it, Evolve is a Competitive spirit that isn't a secret only more often than not the buff will be better than +1/+1.
But it costs god damn 1 mana. Turn 7 you can play Fire Elemental + Evolve and probably transform a Totem too.
Turn 3 Tuskar, turn 4 Tuskar plus Evolve.
The one mana makes it very easy to combo. The way I see it, Evolve is a Competitive spirit that isn't a secret only more often than not the buff will be better than +1/+1.
toddhunter
Member
Yep the 1 mana is the thing. More so because it means you don't need to use it.
If you get a good totemic, you can hold off. But get a bad one? Well you can upgrade.
If you get a good totemic, you can hold off. But get a bad one? Well you can upgrade.
Okay guys!
If you're familiar with the streams that Dahbomb and I do, you know that we circle back with our reviews and see what we got right and what we got wrong. Well, it was sort of suggested in this thread that we get wider participation from the community on this, so that's what we'll do!
The idea here is that I want to see what NeoGAF thinks the most overrated and underrated cards are. The most overrated card is the card you think will NOT see wide competitive play but everybody is talking like it will. The most underrated card is the card you think WILL see competitive play but people are sleeping on it or the card is being dismissed. There can't be nuance here because we need a more objective meeasurement here, so it can't be something like "oh it's bad, but not as bad as everybody says it is".
We will share what people think are the most overrated and underrated cards on the final stream that Dahbomb and I do this weekend. Then, in two months, we will go back to everybody's predictions. If you get a prediction right, we'll give you a KUDOS. If you get the prediction wrong, we'll put you on BLAST. If you get TWO KUDOS, you'll win our little game, and as a prize you'll get a sexual favor from Nirolak (Trust me, he's totally cool with this) as well as a one-year subscription to NeoGAF Gold.
To participate, just send me a PM with what you think the most overrated and underrated card in the set is. You only get ONE choice per category. If you send me two or more from a single category, I will pick the one I think you are most likely to be wrong about. So don't do that. I also reserve the right to throw out your pick if it's absurd. Fandral Staghelm will not count as an underrated card. Am'gam Rager will not count as overrated. I'm not going to post a full list of cards that would be disqualified in this manner but if I do think there's little to no controversy about a card I will reply back and ask you to pick something else.
Anyway, happy predicting!
If you're familiar with the streams that Dahbomb and I do, you know that we circle back with our reviews and see what we got right and what we got wrong. Well, it was sort of suggested in this thread that we get wider participation from the community on this, so that's what we'll do!
The idea here is that I want to see what NeoGAF thinks the most overrated and underrated cards are. The most overrated card is the card you think will NOT see wide competitive play but everybody is talking like it will. The most underrated card is the card you think WILL see competitive play but people are sleeping on it or the card is being dismissed. There can't be nuance here because we need a more objective meeasurement here, so it can't be something like "oh it's bad, but not as bad as everybody says it is".
We will share what people think are the most overrated and underrated cards on the final stream that Dahbomb and I do this weekend. Then, in two months, we will go back to everybody's predictions. If you get a prediction right, we'll give you a KUDOS. If you get the prediction wrong, we'll put you on BLAST. If you get TWO KUDOS, you'll win our little game, and as a prize you'll get a sexual favor from Nirolak (Trust me, he's totally cool with this) as well as a one-year subscription to NeoGAF Gold.
To participate, just send me a PM with what you think the most overrated and underrated card in the set is. You only get ONE choice per category. If you send me two or more from a single category, I will pick the one I think you are most likely to be wrong about. So don't do that. I also reserve the right to throw out your pick if it's absurd. Fandral Staghelm will not count as an underrated card. Am'gam Rager will not count as overrated. I'm not going to post a full list of cards that would be disqualified in this manner but if I do think there's little to no controversy about a card I will reply back and ask you to pick something else.
Anyway, happy predicting!
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
What's the deadline on that Zealous?
Well, if you want to have your predictions included in the last stream Dahbomb and I do, before then. That could be tonight but could be as late as Monday. I am not really sure yet. Dahbomb and I are currently doing the streams whenever we have free time available to do so, there's no set schedule here. If I had to guess we will probably have to do two more streams before we finish up. We still have to go through Paladin, Priest, Mage, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior, the Old Gods, and everything C'thun-related.
I might continue to take predictions up until Monday night if people are a little slow and we don't get enough before the last stream.
There are two really good uses:
1) Token minions like SHK, as has been mentioned.
2) Cards with outstanding battlecry effects, but an underwhelming body. This would be your Stormpike Commando, Big Game Hunter, your Black Knight, your Mistcaller, your Jeweled Scarab.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Cool match: Dog(Warrior) vs Fibonacci(Warrior)
Very fast paced with a great ending, Dog explains his moves as well as his opponent's.
Very fast paced with a great ending, Dog explains his moves as well as his opponent's.
I think Stand Against Darkness and Journey Below are both being vastly underrated, and will be big sleeper hits.
I can't think of anything that screams out as overrated, people are being pretty pessimistic about this expansion after TgT. I guess Bladed Cultist, I think the card is going to be too awkward to use to see play in constructed.
Let's see, I think Shadow Strike will see play, while undamaged characters is a pretty big restriction, a lot of the powerful midrange minions have 4 or 5 HP. I think Bilefin Tidehunter is going to be the Anno-o-tron of this expansion, and should see play in a few decks.
I can't think of anything that screams out as overrated, people are being pretty pessimistic about this expansion after TgT. I guess Bladed Cultist, I think the card is going to be too awkward to use to see play in constructed.
Let's see, I think Shadow Strike will see play, while undamaged characters is a pretty big restriction, a lot of the powerful midrange minions have 4 or 5 HP. I think Bilefin Tidehunter is going to be the Anno-o-tron of this expansion, and should see play in a few decks.
toddhunter
Member
Blade of c'thun is underrated. People are sleeping on rogue.
Every pro I've seen say the shaman weapon is trash. Maybe it's not that bad?
Same goes for paladin weapon. This is the first time paladin got a weapon with 3 attack. If you have played paladin you know how hard it is to kill something with 3 hp, if you don't have board it's impossible. Again truesilver is too late at times, I've seen pros say why play this if you have truesilver, like that's not how it works. I think you will have to play this, its battlecry is a bonus, with your poor early game you need it to kill mana wyrm and troggs and similar. And don't forget keeper synergy, you can play keeper next turn and kill anything they play. You can't do that with truesilver. It's so much more tempo, of course you still play truesilver.
I think this one is for sure underrated and will see a lot of play.
Same goes for paladin weapon. This is the first time paladin got a weapon with 3 attack. If you have played paladin you know how hard it is to kill something with 3 hp, if you don't have board it's impossible. Again truesilver is too late at times, I've seen pros say why play this if you have truesilver, like that's not how it works. I think you will have to play this, its battlecry is a bonus, with your poor early game you need it to kill mana wyrm and troggs and similar. And don't forget keeper synergy, you can play keeper next turn and kill anything they play. You can't do that with truesilver. It's so much more tempo, of course you still play truesilver.
I think this one is for sure underrated and will see a lot of play.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Yeah, no way Hammer of Twilight is trash. It's pretty much the first decent control oriented weapon Shaman has ever gotten and I'm convinced it's a one-of in every slow midrange/control Shaman deck that doesn't care about bursting with Doomhammer/Al'Akir.
It's also one of the few 5 mana cards that Shaman has that doesn't overload you and stop you from playing Fire Elemental on Turn 6.
And remember guys, if you want to be included in the underrated/overrated callouts on stream you need to send me a PM.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
He probably doesn't count as a pro but Kripp said the weapon is amazing as soon as it got revealed. I just checked and Trump said it's great too, even said it's better than Doomhammer.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think every midrange shaman deck will run doomhammer over that new one. And same for aggro. And control shaman? Nah. I don't even think there. I think it's just not going to be ran. Death's bite was the 4/2 weapon of dreams. Playable early enough to defend against early game pressure and still capable of removing a the often 5 hp minion played on turns 4-6.
Call me crazy but if this was a 4 mana 1 overload, I think it'd be played. But there is no chance this will replace doomhammer. There is some chance of being in control, but I'm not sure if it's good enough.
Call me crazy but if this was a 4 mana 1 overload, I think it'd be played. But there is no chance this will replace doomhammer. There is some chance of being in control, but I'm not sure if it's good enough.
Are people saying the new paladin weapon is bad? I also think it's going to be great. It Synergizes very well with keeper, and being a slightly more expensive War Axe is fine I feel, since Paladin has such a limited weapon pool. I think it's good even if you don't have Divine Shield Sysergy.
You've answered your own question. It's a slow card for a fast class. The odds are very small it ever makes a real difference, unless there's a drastic shift in the way Hunter is played/played against.
the token is 3 mana, good target for master of evolution too.
yeah, I know Kripp think it's good. I don't follow Trump. but on the tempostorm stream the other day some pros were talking about all the class cards and it was laughed out actually. Strifecro thinks it's bad too, something like it doesn't kill enough things.
yup, essentially no one thinks anything other than control paladin is playable and you don't play this in control paly. You might just play doomsayer and things like that for early game.
yeah, I know Kripp think it's good. I don't follow Trump. but on the tempostorm stream the other day some pros were talking about all the class cards and it was laughed out actually. Strifecro thinks it's bad too, something like it doesn't kill enough things.
yup, essentially no one thinks anything other than control paladin is playable and you don't play this in control paly. You might just play doomsayer and things like that for early game.
Nobody's talking about it because everybody agrees its practically broken. It's not even remotely controversial how good it is.
Except for Haly, apparently.
Hunter plays Dr. Boom just fine. Call of the Wild is a finisher. You get an immediate impact that is impossible to punish. You play the card and you win. Turn 8-9 is about the time that Midrange Hunter aims to finish the game, so it's perfectly playable.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Yeah, Call of the Wild is the Boom replacement for midrange Hunter at a bare minimum. I don't know if it'll be worth running two but there's no reason to not put one in the deck.
I love it. What a smart card. It's like Powermace. The Deathrattle was nice, but the stats were the prize. Same here, the Battlecry is nice, but the real prize is the stat distribution.