Karsticles
Member
I feel so skillful every time Tuskarr Totemic summons Totem Golem.
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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Even more skill:
Maybe we were looking at impressions in different places? I mostly remember a "huh, that's neat I guess" reaction to it.
Possessed Villager was always going to be good because of it was a better Argent Squire for Zoo. Everyone knew that and there wasn't much debate or talk over it because the card was unexciting. Then they revealed Councilman and the card became a lot better.
Another bad draw wrecks Rogue's day.
Another bad draw wrecks Rogue's day.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
god call of the wild is a stupid card.
It's just godawful that we're having competitve HS for close to 3 years and there is still not a decent tournament suite in the game that just allows you to pick up the game where it left off incase of a dc. Or you know just distribute a lan version to organizers that buy a lisence or something to prevent the issue entirely.
Karsticles
Member
If Blizzard was in any way competent, the game would have a mode where you can match against someone and it streamed a shared view of the board.
To be fair it is the only reason Mid-Range Hunter isn't complete garbage and it even makes Lock and Load Hunter a decent deck.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
The problem is Zoo is crazy strong and is guaranteed a 1 or 2 mana card in its opening hand. If you are stuck skipping turn one and tapping hero power turn two you may as well quit. Also a guaranteed 1 or 2 mana card would include spells as well.
But I see your point in that people would game the curve and get rid of much of their 1 and 2 cards so they get a guaranteed desired pull. There is just nothing worse than throwing all your high mana cards back only to get mid to late game cards in return.
Karsticles
Member
I totally know where you are coming from. It does need addressing.
It's not too bad of a card. It won me a Patron Warrior match against Control Warrior because I pinged him for 2 15 turns in a row.
Control Warrior vs. N'zoth Paladin is brutal. My first time queuing with a control warrior last week resulted in me against n'zoth paladin. Because I was playing a fatigue style deck I was actually in a good spot to win but I lost to due to a single mislplay against his 1st sylvanas that gave him enough damage at the end of the game to win.
That is the main reason I don't run control decks until the end of the season when I don't care about ranking, because the 30 minute games are demoralizing when you are trying to make progress.
That is the main reason I don't run control decks until the end of the season when I don't care about ranking, because the 30 minute games are demoralizing when you are trying to make progress.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
HEY GUYS ALL SPELLS HAVE CREASES ON THE BOTTOM LEFT
GLHF
Is it just me, or are the best games in Hearthstone the Control Paladin mirrors?
Like the two games of Hearthstone where I actually accepted friend requests from my opponent were Control Paladin mirrors. There's actually quite a lot of decision making involved but you're not doing the sort of crap where the initiative or decision making is completely lopsided. Each player has to think a lot about each move they make, and the only RNG involved is draw order..
Like the two games of Hearthstone where I actually accepted friend requests from my opponent were Control Paladin mirrors. There's actually quite a lot of decision making involved but you're not doing the sort of crap where the initiative or decision making is completely lopsided. Each player has to think a lot about each move they make, and the only RNG involved is draw order..
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
And sylvanas and potential ragnaros.
Princess Carl
Member
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooou
Great now I will notice that forever....
CW mirror became a clown fiesta with Elise and now there's not even a stable CW list left, so I guess Control (really N'Zoth) Paladin mirror is the next best thing...
Personally I only played it once, was pretty boring and my opponent was just plain awful, blew both Equalities on basically nothing so I won before playing either Equality or N'Zoth
Personally I only played it once, was pretty boring and my opponent was just plain awful, blew both Equalities on basically nothing so I won before playing either Equality or N'Zoth
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
People should give c'thun paladin a shot. It's my favorite paladin list atm and I haven't really refined it yet. Against n'zoth paladin you pretty much have infinite time to build up c'thun.
Probably so since CW is more about Elise RNG than who out played who (with few exceptions like the Chakki game today).
Nah best mirror is OG classic Handlock.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Except it didn't, unless you only count the last few matches and ignore all the matches chakki won with n'zoth paladin.
I play c'thun secret paladin, it's hilarious.
Chakki had the most wins with Control Paladin and was also running control warrior. Even the last game was zoo vs Renolock.
And Terrence didn't even play his Aggro Shaman outside of finals since it was mostly banned. His Renolock and Patron Warrior carried.
The fact that Chakki of all people played three control decks should indicate that the meta has slowed down. Before this tournament I don't think I've ever seen him play control.
Something I found interesting. A lot of hate out there for the state of the game and for Blizzard in general, but Firebat seems to be positive about how things are panning out.
Firebat on Blizzard: "I like what they're doing with the game"
Another good quote:
I think this echoes a lot of what we have said the past few days in this thread. Aggro shaman has been strong, but I've noticed mid-range is better for laddering. Meanwhile I have been a bit salty by how many Shamans there are on ladder as it hearkens back to the days of Paladin dominance.
I have kept up a decent winrate vs. Shaman with many of my decks, so it hasn't been a terrible for my laddering progress, it is just a bit tiring to see Shaman and spend the 1st few turns not knowing if it is aggro, hybrid or Mid-range.
I think a lot of the complaints about the state of the game after Old Gods has more to do with peoples expectations coming into a game like this:
Hearthstone is a game that can be played in several different ways and it is astounding how many folks hate on either of the styles. As long as something isn't oppressive, then I think it should be viable strategy for winning the game. (Warsong Patron and Undertaker)
For me, I am happy with the new cards, the Standard format and the potential of the game going forward. I spend a lot of time with the game, but not nearly as much as pro players and streamers who were absolutely burned the fuck out on the game prior to the Old Gods release and who, for now, seem to be enjoying the current meta.
Firebat on Blizzard: "I like what they're doing with the game"
Another good quote:
I think this echoes a lot of what we have said the past few days in this thread. Aggro shaman has been strong, but I've noticed mid-range is better for laddering. Meanwhile I have been a bit salty by how many Shamans there are on ladder as it hearkens back to the days of Paladin dominance.
I have kept up a decent winrate vs. Shaman with many of my decks, so it hasn't been a terrible for my laddering progress, it is just a bit tiring to see Shaman and spend the 1st few turns not knowing if it is aggro, hybrid or Mid-range.
I think a lot of the complaints about the state of the game after Old Gods has more to do with peoples expectations coming into a game like this:
- You lose a lot even if you are a good player and it feels bad. This game can be more tilting than any game I've ever played if you are not in the right mindset.
- Control players who want longer games vs. Aggro Players who want quick laddering. I feel aggro gets more hate, but plenty of people hate fatigue/control play.
- RNG is a huge factor in deciding games (draw, random damage, Elise rolls, etc.)
- Expecting to go up against "innovative" and "fun" decks after a new expansion.
- Expecting classes to be balanced, when they are closer to rock paper scissors.
- Playing "top meta" decks and not doing as well as the guy who just hit rank 1. I see people net deck all the time, very good decks, and perform badly. (Recently seen someone call Zoo "terrible" and Priest "OP")
Hearthstone is a game that can be played in several different ways and it is astounding how many folks hate on either of the styles. As long as something isn't oppressive, then I think it should be viable strategy for winning the game. (Warsong Patron and Undertaker)
For me, I am happy with the new cards, the Standard format and the potential of the game going forward. I spend a lot of time with the game, but not nearly as much as pro players and streamers who were absolutely burned the fuck out on the game prior to the Old Gods release and who, for now, seem to be enjoying the current meta.
I've had a lot of fun playing Hearthstone this weekend, despite how tilting it is to play over 30 games to gain two ranks. (I'm up to 14 now, on a streak, two wins from 13 but every time I get a win streak I get an equal loss streak so I'm taking a break).
Tempo Warrior is a fun, the new cards are fun (blood to ichor! Malkorok!) and I've got an even record going against aggro shaman and a dominant record against zoo, and I'm beating N'zoth decks with ease. C'thun decks, control warrior and midrange Shaman are giving me fits, though.
Tempo Warrior is a fun, the new cards are fun (blood to ichor! Malkorok!) and I've got an even record going against aggro shaman and a dominant record against zoo, and I'm beating N'zoth decks with ease. C'thun decks, control warrior and midrange Shaman are giving me fits, though.
Ugh... that feeling when you start running into hyper optimized counter deck game after game that you have no chance against.
Playing dragon priest for a quest, pretty fun, actually got Deathwing out onto the field for free off the other Deathwing against a druid who mulched it. But now I'm running into hyper optimized flawless playing freeze mage after freeze mage. At rank 15.
Soon as I see them pass their turn 2 doing nothing I'm like, well that's a loss. There's fuck all I can do against an emperor -> alextraza -> 20+ burst damage on turn 9 with beefy freezable dragons. 3 games in a row had that exact same ending now.
Playing dragon priest for a quest, pretty fun, actually got Deathwing out onto the field for free off the other Deathwing against a druid who mulched it. But now I'm running into hyper optimized flawless playing freeze mage after freeze mage. At rank 15.
Soon as I see them pass their turn 2 doing nothing I'm like, well that's a loss. There's fuck all I can do against an emperor -> alextraza -> 20+ burst damage on turn 9 with beefy freezable dragons. 3 games in a row had that exact same ending now.
Karsticles
Member
People hate Fatigue/Control because Blizzard hasn't turned it into a real playstyle. Real Control decks have win conditions, but Hearthstone Control decks don't. They just counter everything you do until you run out of options and then try to play some of their own.
In MtG, I played Counterburn decks religiously, and Palinchron was my win condition. Once I had mana on the board and drew Palinchron, the game was pretty much over. Hearthstone Control decks just play Elise and hope for good stuff in an RNG-fest. It's terrible.
RPS is a sorry state for the game to be in, but I don't actually feel like the game is very RPS right now. There's just one class, Priest, that sucks horribly against Aggro because Blizzard forgot to give it options.
The game does not reward skill very much - this is a problem. Most decks play themselves aside from a handful of decisions, like how to trade. Climbing the ladder is about playing what's most OP right now.
Why wouldn't someone be pissed about this? People put $50 on an expansion, and if it isn't even adding more fun to the game, what the hell is the point?
Professor Lich
Member
I can't say to much about MtG, but you'd prefer a game where people just need to draw a single card and then just win? Sounds like the OTK Warrior decks from Beta / early release. I know in Magic the system for Mana is different though, but still.
I conceded full ignorance though on how Palinchron works though. Just the idea of only needing one single card doesn't seem that great.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's a free creature that gives back all the resources it takes to play and very hard to get rid off. It's a 7 drop so it's only game over if he disrupted everything the opponent did so far with counters and burn.
Karsticles
Member
Basically, Palinchron cost 7 mana, and if you played him, you got all 7 mana back. So you had to last to turn 7, then he was free. While he's in play, you can spend 4 mana to return him to your hand, so as long as I kept 4 mana open every turn, he couldn't be destroyed. I would play him out on the next turn for free again. He was a 4/5, and player health is 20 in MtG, so he still needed 5 uninterrupted turns to win the game.
It isn't so simple as "draw Palinchron and win", because 7 turns of total control and beyond in MtG is not easy. The main point is that Control decks should have a reward card for when they have survived for so long and managed the board. Cards like Palinchron and Morphling were specifically created for Control decks to play and benefit from.
Hearthstone doesn't have many cards that are win conditions for Control. Elise is pretty much the only one. N'Zoth Priest probably qualifies as well, and maaaaybe N'Zoth Paladin and Rogue, but definitely not N'Zoth Hunter. The problem with these N'Zoth decks is that most of them aren't really about control. You just play a normal tempo game with deathrattle minions and get the kick-ass N'Zoth ending as a bonus.
Jaraxxus counts as a Control win condition, as well.
Those are the kinds of cards the game needs more of.
The Triumvirate of CCG Deck Types goes:
Aggro: wants to win early, struggles if it doesn't.
Midrange: wants to win once resources are available, isn't very strong in the early or late game
Control: wants to push the game late for its win condition
Aggro keeps Control in check.
Midrange keeps Aggro in check.
Control keeps Midrange in check.
If the game is well-balanced, all three deck types struggle against one another. Midrange and Control try to slow Aggro down for their win conditions. Midrange tries to slow down Aggro and win before Control can establish itself. Control tries to slow down Aggro and Midrange.
Hearthstone has solid Aggro and Midrange games, but the Control game is pretty weak.
This is why people who hate Aggro are silly. Aggro needs to exist, or Control would dominate everything.
Exactly. It required perfect control from the beginning of the game until Palinchron's play. Even then, it took Palinchron 5 turns to kill the opponent and win the game.
Man I know you just did not quote Fire "Chogall is the new Dr 7" Bat right now.
It's very hard to take opinion of top players when their role is to more focus on winning than analyzing the design and balance aspects of the game. One top player can say they love control and hopes the game slows down while another may say the opposite. About the only thing the top players actually agree on is decreasing RNG in HS because that actually helps them win more. And in that regard I do honestly feel that the impact of RNG has been lowered in Standard now.
Most qualified person to talk to about balance and design is Kibler but even he shies from completely putting Blizzard on blast for some of their choices. You know he's just one bad Freeze Mage game away from popping off about it like he did on BGH.
It's very hard to take opinion of top players when their role is to more focus on winning than analyzing the design and balance aspects of the game. One top player can say they love control and hopes the game slows down while another may say the opposite. About the only thing the top players actually agree on is decreasing RNG in HS because that actually helps them win more. And in that regard I do honestly feel that the impact of RNG has been lowered in Standard now.
Most qualified person to talk to about balance and design is Kibler but even he shies from completely putting Blizzard on blast for some of their choices. You know he's just one bad Freeze Mage game away from popping off about it like he did on BGH.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
That feeling when you have 12 cards left in your deck and three of those would give you a win condition and you top draw a cthun for lethal.
People are pissed about everything. I don't think it is Blizzard's fault that people are net decking. There are plenty of viable decks in the game at the moment and some that are just emerging (Tempo Warrior as seen the last few pages).
I have seen people post salty comments about losing to net decks and losing to 'stupid decks' that run "bad" cards. I've received more friend requests when I ran Troggzor in my Varian Wrynn warrior than any other card, and this was a month or 2 after TGT game out. I was also running a "steal your shit" priest at rank 4 while finishing my golden portrait and that deck was infuriating for people to play against. This was when Patron was everywhere and I thought people would be happy to see something different. (I was also stealing peoples warsong, facelessing their frothing berzerker and stealing games out from under them)
The only consistent thing I've seen in the game is that people hate losing. Add that to the fact you are probably going to lose 45% (or more) of your games, that can be infuriating. Watching Kripp is hilarious for that reason alone, he spends most of his games bitching about RNG and losing.
I agree the skill ceiling for the game is pretty low, but I think that has always been the goal of the game. It has always been a game dedicated to pleasing the mass market. Despite, the simple mechanics there are still plenty of opportunities, even at high level play, for misplays to decide the outcome of a game.
I also think that, due to the nature of the ladder system, it is very likely to expect the ladder to be a majority of people trying to find the best deck to finish their quests and to climb quickly to their desired ranks.
Because of this, the meta tends to be dominated by an OP deck, but then lots of others take the counter pick approach and see success, which leads to that deck needing a counter. We are probably too early in the OG meta to really know how things will pan out a month from now. I really don't want us to be in a Secret paladin type meta again, but I don't know how to avoid it. (Hell it turns out Mysterious Challenger may not have even been the problematic card LOL)
At some point we all have to decide why we are playing the game. Do we want to rank up, finish quests, get new cards, break the meta, create new and innovative decks, be a pro player, win tournaments, play arena, get all the gold portraits, get all the gold cards, etc?
Karsticles
Member
It's definitely not Blizzard's fault that people are netdecking, but I don't think there are a lot of interesting decks out there, either. Mostly because I would like to play Control, and Control is pretty much dead outside of Freeze Mage, N'Zoth Paladin, and Control Warrior. It IS Blizzard's fault that 8/9 classes can play aggro, 9/9 can midrange, and 3/9 can play Control.
There should be a significant skill differentiator in the game. It can be simple but deep - Chess is simple but deep. Hearthstone is simple, shallow, and RNG-oriented.
Karsticles
Member
This string of posts inspires me: what are your most regretted crafting decisions in the last 2 weeks?
For me, I wish I never crafted Earth Elemental or Alexstrasza. The best Shaman deck doesn't even run Earth Elemental right now, and it turns out I don't like Freeze Mage. I don't regret Antonidas because I still want a Tempo Mage deck, and he's involved in that aspect.
For me, I wish I never crafted Earth Elemental or Alexstrasza. The best Shaman deck doesn't even run Earth Elemental right now, and it turns out I don't like Freeze Mage. I don't regret Antonidas because I still want a Tempo Mage deck, and he's involved in that aspect.
Hence they can't play it.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Honestly the only RNG that bothers me at the moment is opening hand and the next 5 cards in the deck. But that is just the nature of literally any card game with a draw mechanic.
I think a lot of the other RNG stuff can be played around for the most part.
I think a lot of the other RNG stuff can be played around for the most part.
You listead 8/9 classes can play aggro, 9/9 classes can play midrange and 3/9 can play control but it's more like this:
Playable aggro classes: Paladin, Hunter, Shaman, Warlock, MAYBE Druid, maybe Rogue
Playable midrange classes: Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Priest, Mage, Paladin, Warrior
Playable control classes: Warlock, Priest, Paladin, Warrior
Playable combo classes: Mage, Rogue
This list makes sense because this is how Blizzard has wanted the game to be from start.. mostly midrange oriented. What they consider as "combo" no one actually considers combo because they think Patron Warrior is combo when it obviously is not (more like tempo or Midrange). What they consider as combo gets nerfed with impunity so only two combo decks remain (Freeze Mage and Miracole Rogue).
The lack of control decks is because Blizzard hasn't added good enough heals/clears/removals for most of the classes but instead just pumped more minions into the classes. That always favors either aggro or Midrange unless the minions are heavy control oriented minions like Eadric.
Only Warlock and Rogue don't play midrange these days unless you want to consider Renolock midrange or that Cthun Renolock. Warlock used to be able to play Midrange Demon but with no Void Caller and Malganis, their lack of solid Midrange minions is exposed. Same thing as Rogue, the powerful cards in Rogue edge towards a tempo/combo playstyle so that is the only thing Rogue has ever been good at. They can play a Nzoth Rogue now but it's not that good to be honest, there are far superior midrange decks one can play.
DragonSworne
Banned
So I've been playing this new expansion and I have to the say the game has regressed. This expansion has taken the back a few steps. So few deck types out there now. The game has become a race to your God, you win. It's almost reached joke level.
Winning now is pure chance. Might as well just flip a coin.
Winning now is pure chance. Might as well just flip a coin.
Professor Lich
Member
Thanks for going more into the card and other things, I appreciate the extra information.
I do agree on Jaraxxus and I find it to be a really cool card too.
There's also more recently Lightlord, which I would say is pretty cool too.
What would you like to see in a card for Hearthstone though, just out of curiosity.
Most good deck not even run Gods
the cheap minion shit on your God, they yelling where your god now on turn 6
I crafted a Hallazeal, but now I have zero interest in Shaman AND I ended up pulling one from a pack. 
I also crafted a Hogger as well, but I think it's a cool card and I wanted it in my collection. That and Soggoth are the two legendaries I crafted that I haven't ended up using yet but I'm happy I own.
Those C'thun decks aren't actually that good. N'Zoth is a win condition, but those decks are slow as hell and easily countered. Yog is garbage, Y'Shaaraj is garbage.
I also crafted a Hogger as well, but I think it's a cool card and I wanted it in my collection. That and Soggoth are the two legendaries I crafted that I haven't ended up using yet but I'm happy I own.
Those C'thun decks aren't actually that good. N'Zoth is a win condition, but those decks are slow as hell and easily countered. Yog is garbage, Y'Shaaraj is garbage.