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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?

Oh yeah, Duelyst also starts you at 2 mana, and I think that would be a neat idea for Hearthstone.

Is it really, I don't think any (T/C)CG comes close to mtg when it comes to the whole package. MTG is lacking accessibility and ease of use as well as being ridiculously expensive but the way other games tried to solve lands causes a slew of other problems.

The way Hearthstone deals with it is also less than ideal, there's no tradeoff for strategies and everything can be way more streamlined. Which causes things to feel samey and massively favours the one able to curve out.



That wasn't pretty.
In my mind, strategy in a CCG involves two things:
1) What you put in your deck.
2) What you do with the cards in your hand.

I don't consider "Oh I only got one land" to be a strategic element, and I don't think anyone should lose for that reason. Also, we all know it sucks when you need something to play and you draw another land. :p I don't feel like my MtG matches had significantly more variation in how they played out than my Hearthstone matches do now.

I play Druid!!
I switched to Shaman! :-D Rank 10 -> Rank 7 in an hour!
 

fertygo

Member
LOL

Btw sour and bitterness aside, HS making a bit progress for me for breaking scenario of all deck use problematic card to at least certain deck playing problematic card, its very good for me we not seeing Mad Scientist, Shredder and Dr. Boom in most deck ever again, now we down to certain class/deck that problematic..

You guys can't convince me Year of Shaman is worse than Dr 4 and 7
 

Ketch

Member
forbidden soul tap

0 mana spell - spend the rest of your health, give your self twice as much mana as health you spent.
 
In my mind, strategy in a CCG involves two things:
1) What you put in your deck.
2) What you do with the cards in your hand.

I don't consider "Oh I only got one land" to be a strategic element, and I don't think anyone should lose for that reason. Also, we all know it sucks when you need something to play and you draw another land. :p I don't feel like my MtG matches had significantly more variation in how they played out than my Hearthstone matches do now.

Just because resources are being added at a fixed rate doesn't mean you're getting any less screwed in Hearthstone. You're just getting screwed by how greedy your deck is or not. Can't fathom how often I lost the last couple days because I had 2 6 and 2 8 drops in hand and was dead by turn 7. That was as much a non game as would have been getting stuck on 1 land just getting stuck on 1 land I could have resigned sooner.

I don't think it's ideal in mtg but I also don't think any game came up with a superior method so far.
 
LOL

Btw sour and bitterness aside, HS making a bit progress for me for breaking scenario of all deck use problematic card to at least certain deck playing problematic card, its very good for me we not seeing Mad Scientist, Shredder and Dr. Boom in most deck ever again, now we down to certain class/deck that problematic..

You guys can't convince me Year of Shaman is worse than Dr 4 and 7

I agree. It is a bit disheartening to see not a lot of anti aggro, class base even, in this set.

Also idk if anybody remembers frodan's tweet where he stated that blizzard didn't want decks like freeze mage (polarizing matchups) but didn't do anything about that at all. Guess they want that 9-1 matchup
 
Just because resources are being added at a fixed rate doesn't mean you're getting any less screwed in Hearthstone. You're just getting screwed by how greedy your deck is or not. Can't fathom how often I lost the last couple days because I had 2 6 and 2 8 drops in hand and was dead by turn 7. That was as much a non game as would have been getting stuck on 1 land just getting stuck on 1 land I could have resigned sooner.

I don't think it's ideal in mtg but I also don't think any game came up with a superior method so far.
In a CCG, your hand can primarily get screwed in two ways:
1) Not enough viable stuff to play.
2) Not enough mana to play stuff with.

MtG can potentially have both problems in one hand.
Hearthstone fixed the second problem with mana crystals.
The first problem still exists in both games.
Duelyst alleviated 1) a bit by letting you cycle every turn and letting you start with 2 mana.

I think more can be done, but that's the overall point I'm making. MtG is in the worst position on draw fairness of the 3 games I'm comparing. The situation you described is NOT a mana problem, it's a viable card problem.

Fun fact on this: Duelyst Alpha tried to solve this by giving you a new hand of 4 cards every turn. At the end of your turn, they were shuffled back in. Apparently it wasn't a good idea, since they scrapped it.

forbidden soul tap

0 mana spell - spend the rest of your health, give your self twice as much mana as health you spent.
Add "You die at the end of your turn." and "All creatures you cast this turn gain Charge", and I'm there! ;-)
 

ricelord

Member
lmao was 1-2 at one point then boom start going all ape shit on people.

13180963_1046809735393591_701699709_n.png
 

Dahbomb

Member
Well in YGO spells/traps are usually cast for free and cheap minions are cast for free (more expensive minions need sacrifices). There's no mana crystals or extra resource system to worry about.

Man someone needs to x-copy YGO and make a more approachable digital card game based around that type of card game. I would probably only play that game.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
always fun when a game just literally comes down to a coin toss

he was at 2 health, I was at 6

either his ragnaros firelord was going to hit me and he'd win, or hit my minion and I'd arrow his face

thanks, RNG, I appreciate it lol
 

manhack

Member
Apparently it wasn't a good idea, since they scrapped it.

Yeah I think the main issue is that being able to draw and redraw so many times allowed for combo decks to be extremely powerful (draw most of the deck and do insane burst damage) and for games to play out in similar ways.

In the same reasoning Blizzard has nerfed decks that were able to draw a ton of cards and do a lot of burst damage.

I feel like we are in a good spot with some of that, but obviously things like patron, miracle rogue, and freeze mage are relatively good at drawing a majority of their deck to pull of the burst damage needed to end games. Only patron seems like it plays a bit more fair now that warsong doesn't give patrons charge.
 
always fun when a game just literally comes down to a coin toss

he was at 2 health, I was at 6

either his ragnaros firelord was going to hit me and he'd win, or hit my minion and I'd arrow his face

thanks, RNG, I appreciate it lol
King Crush is an 8/8 charge for 9 mana. I think of Ragnaros as being 1 mana less in exchange for you having a % chance of surviving its attack due to it attacking the wrong target. ;-)

Yeah I think the main issue is that being able to draw and redraw so many times allowed for combo decks to be extremely powerful (draw most of the deck and do insane burst damage) and for games to play out in similar ways.

In the same reasoning Blizzard has nerfed decks that were able to draw a ton of cards and do a lot of burst damage.

I feel like we are in a good spot with some of that, but obviously things like patron, miracle rogue, and freeze mage are relatively good at drawing a majority of their deck to pull of the burst damage needed to end games. Only patron seems like it plays a bit more fair now that warsong doesn't give patrons charge.
Patron is really fair just because its win condition is so easy to counter. Personally, I rather like combo decks, so I'm glad these are around.
 
King Crush is an 8/8 charge for 9 mana. I think of Ragnaros as being 1 mana less in exchange for you having a % chance of surviving its attack due to it attacking the wrong target. ;-)


Patron is really fair just because its win condition is so easy to counter. Personally, I rather like combo decks, so I'm glad these are around.

it used to not be easily countered when all their minions had charge and then you'd get hit in the face w/ a frothing for 20+ dmg

Easily countered boyz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKJfj-cUGGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wHpJ7SvoAQ
 

Lazybob

Neo Member
Some of the decks in the lower ranks have really been annoying me when playing zoo the last few days. I must have really shitty luck constantly running into decks with a lot of taunts and board clears. Switched to a gimmicky OTK Dragon priest I made for fun. Fun deck but I feel like a dick when I draw the last part of the combo.
 
Some of the decks in the lower ranks have really been annoying me when playing zoo the last few days. I must have really shitty luck constantly running into decks with a lot of taunts and board clears. Switched to a gimmicky OTK Dragon priest I made for fun. Fun deck but I feel like a dick when I draw the last part of the combo.
The meta is constantly evolving. :p

But I am not a huge fan of the current Zoolock because it feels so fragile compared to Nerubian Eggs and Haunted Creepers.
 

Lazybob

Neo Member
The meta is constantly evolving. :p

But I am not a huge fan of the current Zoolock because it feels so fragile compared to Nerubian Eggs and Haunted Creepers.

Agreed. The lack of stickiness makes the board clears hurt more then they used to. It may have gotten some great cards like darkshire councilman but the loss of the eggs and creepers is going to hurt zoo in standard as the meta develops.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I wish I had gotten to be a part of those days. :-O
Some say that the Grim Patron meta was when the game was at its most honest, least RNG driven and most skill based.

The OG Grim Patron crushed aggro decks. If you think the current aggro decks get dunked on by Patron it was nothing compared to how hard OG Patron punished aggro. Shaman was a bottom tier class back then so it wasn't even on any radars. Secret Paladin had just came out but it lost to OG Patron so it didn't really make a big impact when it first came out because it still came during the reign of Grim Patron.

Because Patron was the best deck, people play Handlock (the best counter to it), Oil Rogue and Control Warrior. The counter to those decks was Druid (the one that everyone played not too long ago) but that deck was countered by Patron deck itself. So 4 out of 5 decks were slower, high skill cap decks.


And as ridiculous as Patron was, it wasn't a common deck on Ladder.
 
Agreed. The lack of stickiness makes the board clears hurt more then they used to. It may have gotten some great cards like darkshire councilman but the loss of the eggs and creepers is going to hurt zoo in standard as the meta develops.
Also, when people realize that Zoo decks only have 3 minions worth nuking, the deck becomes much more manageable. Zoo is the least scary meta deck for me right now, and its damage is really slow unless it double-draws POs.

Some say that the Grim Patron meta was when the game was at its most honest, least RNG driven and most skill based.

The OG Grim Patron crushed aggro decks. If you think the current aggro decks get dunked on by Patron it was nothing compared to how hard OG Patron punished aggro. Shaman was a bottom tier class back then so it wasn't even on any radars. Secret Paladin had just came out but it lost to OG Patron so it didn't really make a big impact when it first came out because it still came during the reign of Grim Patron.

Because Patron was the best deck, people play Handlock (the best counter to it), Oil Rogue and Control Warrior. The counter to those decks was Druid (the one that everyone played not too long ago) but that deck was countered by Patron deck itself. So 4 out of 5 decks were slower, high skill cap decks.


And as ridiculous as Patron was, it wasn't a common deck on Ladder.
So nerfing an overpowered OTK deck ruined the meta?
 

Lazybob

Neo Member
Also, when people realize that Zoo decks only have 3 minions worth nuking, the deck becomes much more manageable. Zoo is the least scary meta deck for me right now, and its damage is really slow unless it double-draws POs.?

Saw this start to happen after the first week. No one realized how strong darkshire councilman was so it'd be left on the board to grow out of control. Now it rarely stays on the board long when I play it because people know how much of a threat it is.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The meta was kinda stale as it was in tournaments but on Ladder people could use whatever they want. Demon Zoolock, Mech Shaman, Druid, Hunter and Secret Paladin were all really strong on Ladder despite having a counter deck looming.

People just didn't like taking 40 damage in one turn from no board. Deck was very counter intuitive to play against as more minions on board gave the deck more damage to kill you with. Normally combo decks should be countered by aggressive decks but Patron countered that and countered most control decks too like Priest or Paladin. Handlock had a lot of taunts and board clears but even Handlock could get OTK'd the with a board of massive taunts.
 
Saw this start to happen after the first week. No one realized how strong darkshire councilman was so it'd be left on the board to grow out of control. Now it rarely stays on the board long when I play it because people know how much of a threat it is.
Yeah. I'll nuke Darkshire Councilman and save disables for Sea Giant. Doomguard is rarely a factor because when he's played it's either an act of desperation (like someone played him and ran him straight into Flamewreathed Faceless tonight, losing 2 cards as well) or as a finisher.
 

zoukka

Member
I had a hilarious morning in ladder with my control paladin. Instead of losing to hunters by life loss, they actually out valued me with traps/bow and all dem deathrattles.

Feels bad man.
 
I had a hilarious morning in ladder with my control paladin. Instead of losing to hunters by life loss, they actually out valued me with traps/bow and all dem deathrattles.

Feels bad man.
Hunter is solid right now. The only thing holding the class back is that it's an inferior Shaman.

I mean just look at the two new 4-drops each one got:
Hunters: 3/3 that spawns two 1/1s when it dies.
Shaman: 7/7 with 2 overload.

Um, one of those is clearly way better than the other.
 

zoukka

Member
I played too defensively too since I thought the decks were more aggressive. Needed to get more value out of my cards. Also doomsayers are really bad against hunter -.-
 

Dahbomb

Member
The Infested Wolf is an insane card.

5/5 worth of stats in 4 mana and 3 bodies that are all beasts. It's the closest thing we have to a Shredder in the game.

It's used two of in all the Hunter decks.


Also the Shaman 4 drop has two overload so it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Plus one removal kills it where as its harder to remove the Wolf.

Not saying Wolf is better, Faceless is obviously broken but Wolf is a dam near exceptional 4 drop.



Man difference between Hunter and Shaman is at 1 and 2 mana slot. Shaman has Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem/Flametongue with the 2 drops buffing the 1 drop. Hunter has Fire Bat which is an ok 1 drop and King's Elekk an ok 2 drop but one on one they generally get beat by Shaman. Then if Shaman lands a crazy Tuskar Totemic that out values even a good Animal Companion at 3.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
The Infested Wolf is an insane card.

5/5 worth of stats in 4 mana and 3 bodies that are all beasts. It's the closest thing we have to a Shredder in the game.

It's used two of in all the Hunter decks.


Also the Shaman 4 drop has two overload so it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Plus one removal kills it where as its harder to remove the Wolf.

Not saying Wolf is better, Faceless is obviously broken but Wolf is a dam near exceptional 4 drop.

It also makes sure Ram Wrangler and Houndmaster are usually live, plus there's Call of the Wild synergy with the two spiders.
 

manhack

Member
Hunter is solid right now. The only thing holding the class back is that it's an inferior Shaman.

I haven't been impressed with Hunter, but am hoping someone comes out with a good list. Breezed through a 5 win Quest at Rank 8 just now, so there is that.

Meanwhile a lot of the competitive scene is shitting on Hunter and there were very few in the Dreamhack line up.

I will probably settle into a Lock and Load deck once I hit Rank 5 just for fun.
 
The Infested Wolf is an insane card.

5/5 worth of stats in 4 mana and 3 bodies that are all beasts. It's the closest thing we have to a Shredder in the game.

It's used two of in all the Hunter decks.


Also the Shaman 4 drop has two overload so it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Plus one removal kills it where as its harder to remove the Wolf.

Not saying Wolf is better, Faceless is obviously broken but Wolf is a dam near exceptional 4 drop.



Man difference between Hunter and Shaman is at 1 and 2 mana slot. Shaman has Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem/Flametongue with the 2 drops buffing the 1 drop. Hunter has Fire Bat which is an ok 1 drop and King's Elekk an ok 2 drop but one on one they generally get beat by Shaman. Then if Shaman lands a crazy Tuskar Totemic that out values even a good Animal Companion at 3.

It also makes sure Ram Wrangler and Houndmaster are usually live, plus there's Call of the Wild synergy with the two spiders.
In the end, all that matters is Shaman win the face war, which Hunters should be the best at. Faceless has two overload, but he is still on the table turn 4 and going face turn 5, and Hunters have to trade into him or risk heavy face burst.

Doomhammer is a better weapon than any Hunter weapon.

Lightning Storm is a better clear than any Hunter clear.

Every Shaman class minion is better than its parallel Hunter minion, save Highmane.

Shaman have better face burn options than Hunter.

Hunter doesn't even have a goddamn disable to deal with the N'Zoth decks. If N'Zoth drops you are mega screwed.

My life has been notably easier since I shifted from midrange Hunter to midrange Shaman.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Midrange Hunter lists running Huge Toad over Flame Juggler are doing it wrong imo. I think the more immediate impact of Flame Juggler is better than the beast tag.
 

fertygo

Member
Got yellow tint from pack after arena (which very shitty, don't play arena at US Nighttime folks).. its Mukla

fuck this game
 

manhack

Member
Damn. Chessdude just hit rank 1 Legend with Malygos Rogue. That really was my pick to be the OP deck of Old Gods prior to the Blade Flurry nerf.

I didn't see all the decks he beat to get there, but it was fun watching him burst down a Control Warrior.
 
At this point I can't ever see myself playing more than 10% of my games in standard. The tipping point was last night when I battled my friend who has a bigger collection than me; I'd guess I'm at maybe 65%, maybe, but honesty I have most of the cards that matter to me so I can make p much most non rogue decks. When my friend and I battle we just have fun, he was challenging me to standard games and I just questioned him; why? We invested so much time and money to get all these cards. So why would we just not use them when we play together (which is the time when I have the most fun playing)?

Standard is a great idea for "competitive" play in order to keep letting new people play the game, it's great for f2p players. But as someone with most of the cards I care about, I get way less fun out of it. Sure opponents can drop annoying cards but I have access to them as well.

The most fun I have in this game is making home brew decks, where I start off play games and then adjust accordingly as I see the weaknesses. Wild gives way way more opportunity to do that.

For instance my favorite decks right now are nzoth decks since I pulled him. It inspired me to make Hunter deathrattle decks, and after crafting princess Huey, I have the ability to make zoo/flood/deathrattle Hunter decks that are fun as hell. Using the stalker card I can make Nerubian eggs 1/3 in my hand, or use princess to pop one on the board, or use feign death to pop them, or use call of the wild to make them roar! It makes weird things like Hunter zoo have a place, where in standard it's much less viable bc of less options. That's freaking awesome. In standard, my creativity for using princess and such is super limited with the low amount of deathrattles, so why limit myself when having a huge bank of cards is so fun? Sure some cards are borderline "auto include", but if shredder and creeper enable decks that wouldn't work in standard like a Hunter zoo deck, why would I care? It leads to More overal options!

The nerfs balanced wild out a lot more than it was before them as well. Sure there will always be OP netdecks, but personally, the aspect of being able to have more options available means I'm wild at least for this year. Arena is wild as well and Playing mostly standard could really hinder me when playing arena cos u could forget about playing around certain cards. And honestly I hate the aspect of being in a standard game and thinking something like "wait, is imp gang boss legal, do I need to play around it?? I forget what pack it was in...", it makes more sense to me to play around all of the cards I know for less confusion.

Then again I'm not one to care about breaking the meta or making legend. I usually just make it somewhere in the 5-10 range, losing doesn't bother me if I get to have fun crafting new ideas. For instance the most fun I had in hs was taking an aggro priest archetype and getting it to rank 6 or 7. Wild gives way more opportunities for fun like that IMO
 
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