Meh conditional 5-mana 8/8 pretty clunky when compared to a 4-mana 7/7.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Meh conditional 5-mana 8/8 pretty clunky when compared to a 4-mana 7/7.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I only get Captain's Parrot so no thanks
Rosenskjold
Member
Mill Rogue lives! Except, this is the only milling card he played, so maybe just some tech card I don't get.
toddhunter
Member
Is the trap not being able to play the exact same deck as everybody else to get to legend rank?
The card is strong and is used in lots of fun decks. A great craft.
It can ONLY be used in C'thun decks which aren't going to change much if at all without new C'thun cards. Compare it to Fandral or even Hallazeal which can only improve as more cards that synergize with them comes along.
toddhunter
Member
If you can't gather the dust to craft another legendary in six months, why would you even remotely care which card is "tempostorm better?"
Just craft the card and enjoy the damn game.
Its not like C'thun deck not viable for laddering too its pretty good.. prettý useful if you need quick deck for clearing guest. I think you gonna get a lot more use of it than Fandral. I rather set up Cthun Druid than struggle with those meh aggro druid deck. If you wanna play mediocre deck may as well pláy with bìg dude.
I think you're over estimating how much a good card's value will change with new expansion.
Dr. Boom is a good example of a great card staying great no matter what came out. Twin Emperor is a great card and should remain at a high value until it is rotated out. I don't see two 4/6 taunts for 7 mana being out valued any time soon.
You are also under estimating the fact that new cards could increase the power of C'thun decks.
C'thun decks as a whole are a Control core. So any new card that fits into a Control deck will also buff the C'thun decks. So sure they won't get anymore c'thun buffs, but since most C'thun decks have reduced the number of buff minions and play more pure control cards. It's likely that some C'thun decks are just 2 or 3 cards away from being top tier, and it's not because of the lack of C'thun synergy, it's the lack of control options.
Karsticles
Member
My winrate with C'Thun Druid is still really high, so I don't know why people say it's not strong. Then again, my C'Thun Druid runs a lot of uncommon cards like Starfire and the new Roar that gives you +4 attack or +8 armor.
C'Thun Druid is pretty good. I think it has a tough match up with both Control Warrior and Tempo Warrior, which are common decks being played. It was also super popular during release, so it's just fallen out of flavor.
I tried playing Feral Rage and it was pretty underwhelming for me. Maybe I've judged too early, and I'm glad to hear the card is seeing some play. The card seems like the perfect mid-range accessory, it can help stabalize against aggro and it can help burst or remove against tempo or control. It also has synergy with Fandral. Yet it still feels like 4 damage for 3 mana is just not enough compared to Wrath and Swipe.
Karsticles
Member
The mana cost is definitely too high, but the 8 armor has saved me in a lot of aggro matchups, and if I'm doing well it can be a nuke to let me pressure face more. It's never a dead card. Maybe it could even help vs. Freeze Mage.
I generally feel as though C'Thun is strong, and I don't see how it CAN'T be strong. The 2/1 that nukes for 2 and the divine shield minion are both very solid plays, and all of the synergy cards are amazing. Where is the room for it being bad?
Is it just me or have all of the decks gone up in difficulty to play? I am not saying that these are the hardest decks to play, but the learning curve and chance to misplay is much higher than it's been in the past for almost every deck.
Miracle Rogue - Always a hard deck to play. Know when to go all in on the Auctioneer, know when to push for lethal, and know when to focus on clearing the board and you might win. The fine line between control and smorc is hard to find at times and often requires you to know your opponents deck and predict their clears.
Tempo Warrior - Seemingly a simple tempo deck, but it grows in complexity quickly once you have to balance your draws with your trades with your curve. The deck often makes you sacrifice tempo, card advantage, or health very rapidly. You also need to know when to trade and when to smorc or you will miss your lethal window.
Zoo - Much more similar to the classic Zoo where your board is fragile and weak. You cannot over commit or you will lose. You have to keep enough on the board to clear the opponent, and keep enough in hand so that you don't run out of gas. Picking out the absolute best trades is really important.
Aggro Shaman - An aggro deck that leverages lots of Overload. You have to plan two or more turns ahead most of the time as you build up the board and crash minions into the face. If you manage your mana wrong on a Wolf or Faceless turn you will very likely lose the game, since it gives your opponent that much more time to stabilize.
Miracle Rogue - Always a hard deck to play. Know when to go all in on the Auctioneer, know when to push for lethal, and know when to focus on clearing the board and you might win. The fine line between control and smorc is hard to find at times and often requires you to know your opponents deck and predict their clears.
Tempo Warrior - Seemingly a simple tempo deck, but it grows in complexity quickly once you have to balance your draws with your trades with your curve. The deck often makes you sacrifice tempo, card advantage, or health very rapidly. You also need to know when to trade and when to smorc or you will miss your lethal window.
Zoo - Much more similar to the classic Zoo where your board is fragile and weak. You cannot over commit or you will lose. You have to keep enough on the board to clear the opponent, and keep enough in hand so that you don't run out of gas. Picking out the absolute best trades is really important.
Aggro Shaman - An aggro deck that leverages lots of Overload. You have to plan two or more turns ahead most of the time as you build up the board and crash minions into the face. If you manage your mana wrong on a Wolf or Faceless turn you will very likely lose the game, since it gives your opponent that much more time to stabilize.
I don't see anything bad about any of that. Making the game more skillful seems like a good thing all around.
I beat a Miracle Rogue deck with my poor Paladin deck. Leeroy Jenkins, Sap, and all those Rogue things (Auctioneer, Drake, FoK, Eviscerate, Shadow Strike).
Probably my opponent misplayed and I kept topdecking answers. Rogue played all cards and lost.
At one point, this was the board:
Probably my opponent misplayed and I kept topdecking answers. Rogue played all cards and lost.
At one point, this was the board:
Karsticles
Member
I feel like Zoo is more simple now that you don't have to plan around Void Terror, Nerubian Egg, and Void Walker synergies. Now it's just "play a bunch of stuff and go face" - it's not even really a tempo-oriented deck anymore because the minions are too weak to keep the board for long.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There was somewhat of an interesting discussion recently in the mtg space.
Define Tempo!
Define Tempo!
Karsticles
Member
Tempo is a chess term as well. I'm not sure if it originated there, but it's pretty old. In chess, tempo is the number of moves it takes for a player to go from the starting position to their current position. In the opening game, it's an essential measure of how much board presence you have, but by the endgame it's completely irrelevant.
In that spirit, I think of tempo as something like board potential. You could define it as "The power and flexibility available on the game board". Some decks care about tempo more than others.
I completely agree. I actually really love it and think it's why I'm enjoying the game more this season than just about any before it.
I was just wondering if others had the same opinion.
I saw a few pages back people were saying Tempo Warrior is a complete trash deck, yet I feel it's really strong and has very few bad match ups. I think it's a deck that takes some time to learn and is similar to Patron Warrior in it's intricacies. The shell seems easy to play, but it's also easy to make a mistake and get punished hard.
Which lead to thinking about how aggro shaman is actually harder than face shaman.
Then Zoo is harder to pilot than the previous super sticky zoo.
The comparisons go down through every class. It's kind of awesome how every deck got a little hard mode mixed in with it.
Karsticles
Member
Aggro Shaman = Face Shaman, and aside from Faceless, the deck hasn't changed at all. It's hardly an increase in difficulty.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
but do tempo decks really fall under that umbrella in HS? Most of the power for Tempo Warrior seems to be in hand and not on the board.
Another curiosity is Sap, a tempo card through and through but used in combo instead.
If that's how you think you are supposed to play Zoo, you will lose a lot of games. That is actually a clear misunderstanding of what makes zoo powerful. Zoo out tempos the opponent by using half a 1 cost minion to trade with almost anything you can play while refilling their hand and building the board. Zoo should almost never go face without trading for the board first unless they aren't being pressured at all or almost have lethal.
Are you playing against Zoo and seeing this action? My guess is that you are getting zerged down because you aren't applying pressure to them. They are also probably not over extending into clears and holding cards in their hand to refill the board, which makes it look like a mindless play out your hand move, but really isn't.
Karsticles
Member
I would definitely use Sap in a tempo deck, and I have in the past when I'm grinding Rogue quests.
Tempo isn't the end-all, be-all of analyzing your power within a match. It's just a way of analyzing the present board. It's coherent to say "Player A has a lot more tempo than player B, but player B is winning" from a commentator perspective.
You trade a little bit early on, but all tempo decks have a point where they go face instead of trade. Zoo has to go face MUCH earlier now because it lacks beefy minions.
Here's a basic example. In Wild, you can play the following set:
Turn 1: Coin Nerubian Egg
Turn 2: Abusive Sergeant to pop the egg.
Now you have a 4/4 and a 2/1 by turn 2, and that's really hard to contest, so you can play the board for a while.
In Standard, you don't have any plays like that. You lose the board much faster.
You probably aren't going to listen to me when I repeat that you are wrong and giving up on the board is how you lose games as Zoo. So here are some guides on how to play zoo.
Sheng's Budget Zoo - A quick intro on how zoo plays and a really great break down of each card in the deck and what it's purpose is. There is even a video that showcases the Zoo player making a value trade on turn 4 even though he could have gone face for 3 more damage.
Ogren's Legendary Zoo - This is a great breakdown on every card and most match ups. He talks about how you can use trading to limit your exposure to board clears and how the sweet spot is to only have 3 or 4 minions on the board during control match ups so that you don't over commit. He even goes into detail on which match ups are the ones that you have to go face, surprise it's Freeze mage and patron warrior the decks that give you almost nothing to trade into.
So sure,if you smorc with the deck you might get some wins. Just know that you aren't playing the deck like it's designed to be played. You are probably losing games you could win too.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
New zoo reminds me a lot of the old zoo (classic zoo), plus sea giants and imp spam.
Karsticles
Member
I don't think you read my post...
LyleLanley
Banned
This brawl seems boring.
Flamewakers are back, baby!
The way the term is used in HS you don't ever "have tempo", it's not a state, in that case you just have board/card/life advantage. Rather you can momentarily make "tempo plays", which are generally defined by simultaneously removing resources from your opponent's board while developing your own, making a play that cheats the curve or simply choosing to drop the highest amount of stats over making a higher value play (e.g. turn 5: playing 3+2-drops instead of an Azure Drake). Generally you're spending less mana on answering a play than it cost your opponent to make, usually at the cost of card advantage.
No I did. I don't think you read any of the guides I linked or play much Zoo. I guess I can directly reply to your point so that you have a better I idea of what I was trying to explain to you.
Zoo trades for the entire match. This is what keeps them less vulnerable to board clears and allows their 1 drops to gain value far above their mana cost. Zoo does chip damage and rarely goes face unless the match up is so poor that it is the only option.
This value trading is also more important now than it ever was when Nerubian Egg or other sticky minions where in the deck. Those sticky minions acted as safety nets against board clears and gave you some room for error in your trades. The deck no longer has as many safety nets. You build up, you trade things away, and you repeat until you do enough chip damage that you can finish off your opponent in a single burst turn.
Karsticles
Member
Zoo has been my main deck for half of my time playing the game. No, i didn't read your links - I didn't ask for them, so I don't feel obligated to read them. I've read plenty of Zoo guides in the past while I was learning the game.
Zoo CAN'T trade the entire game anymore. That's my point. The minions just aren't strong enough now. You lose too much steam and have to spend more time tapping, which is dangerous in a lot of matchups. There has to be a point where you push face and let the board alone a bit. There's a reason the deck has fallen on the tier list, and will probably continue to fall.
When I play against Zoo, there are only 4-5 minions I am worried about. I find this to be one of the decks I am happy to play against at an equal curve.
Checking in.
Big time. Going from last week to this, Just so bad
It's not even boring, it's terrible and abusing mechanics that are so shit normally. Like it feels bad playing steward of darkshire + tokens, they get no way to get back
Zoo is using more burst these days and it's finding solid success at high level play. That means Leeroy and Soul Fires.
Zoo will never drop below tier 2 and could possibly come back to tier 1 sooner rather than later.
Firebat made a video not too long ago where he explains why Zoo always ends up being tier 1 no matter the environment. Once people know the good cards and decks, Zoo adjusts with the right minions and then plays the faster minion to overwhelm by getting carried by the hero power.
Zoo will never drop below tier 2 and could possibly come back to tier 1 sooner rather than later.
Firebat made a video not too long ago where he explains why Zoo always ends up being tier 1 no matter the environment. Once people know the good cards and decks, Zoo adjusts with the right minions and then plays the faster minion to overwhelm by getting carried by the hero power.
veryslowhand
Banned
whats the brawl?
Every minion played gets stealth for 1 turn
At least Rogue can't get an unfair advantage with Master of Disguise anymore
naw, 1 health is still bad. I beat down a shaman just now as a mage, between arcane explosion, cone of cold, arcane missiles, flamewaker, that thing is not living
poppedcollar69
Member
Flamewaker brawl
irfaanator
Banned
I think og aggro shaman is good in the brawl b/c of everything being able to stay alive after theyre played
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You guys have to be kidding if you aren't using Secret Paladin in this Brawl with Rag finisher.
Can't ever remove board from them. These Hunters using Deadly Shot is cute, they think Brawl is played under Standard rules when they Deadly Shot just clips a Haunted Creeper instead.
Also tempo is maximum utilization of mana per turn to influence board state. By that definition Zoo is most definitely a tempo deck because it always aims to use up all the mana to play efficient minions and use cheap spells to gain board advantage/tempo. PO is a big tempo play and so is stuff like Abusive Sergeant.
It's actually more tempo driven now as before you had some loss of tempo turns when you played Nerubian Egg on turn 2. You are playing a 0/2 on turn 2 that's anti tempo but you are losing tempo early to gain tempo later. Only Zoo card that lacks board tempo now is Councilman but you can still combo it on same turn.
Can't ever remove board from them. These Hunters using Deadly Shot is cute, they think Brawl is played under Standard rules when they Deadly Shot just clips a Haunted Creeper instead.
Also tempo is maximum utilization of mana per turn to influence board state. By that definition Zoo is most definitely a tempo deck because it always aims to use up all the mana to play efficient minions and use cheap spells to gain board advantage/tempo. PO is a big tempo play and so is stuff like Abusive Sergeant.
It's actually more tempo driven now as before you had some loss of tempo turns when you played Nerubian Egg on turn 2. You are playing a 0/2 on turn 2 that's anti tempo but you are losing tempo early to gain tempo later. Only Zoo card that lacks board tempo now is Councilman but you can still combo it on same turn.