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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
You're not wrong and overload has proven to be an awful mechanic but Shaman has a decent variety of unique, non-binary tools on top of that. Most of them just aren't good enough or too combo-focused with too little payoff in our hypertempo meta, which doesn't mean they have to be useless forever though (see the totem theme that might just start working with this expansion).
Really?
Professor Lich
Member
It's cool Yoshi. Hope things turn out ok.
The thing is that Shaman has not gotten any busted early game in OG so far, their upcoming strong to insane cards are all clearly midrange/control-focused. Iirc Blizz hasn't shown remarkably strong 1-3-drops for any class so far, and if the nerfs turn out well that's a very good thing going forward.
The 1-3 drops we've seen so far from classes seem very fair.
irfaanator
Banned
man we're still missing half the cards. This reveal is gonna take forever.
Trogg into Golem is busted. It's just only played in the face deck right now because that's the only reasonable Shaman deck.
Just like the Minibot/Juggler/Muster curve fit into both aggressive Paladin decks and Midrange, I expect the Trogg/Golem curve will be the early game foundation for Midrange Shaman in WOG. Even Tuskar Totemic has a chance to be pretty good, with cards like Minibot and Scientist out of the way who trade for it and get more value.
If it's anything like TGT, they will just drop dozens of cards at once as we approach the release.
I don't see any circumstances where the tempo loss of dropping a 4-mana 1/1 isn't utterly devastating. If your opponent can't efficiently deal with it immediatel they'll just leave it up, which means you'll have to throw it into something and wait another turn to use the 5/5. The only potentially impactful synergy I can think of is PO as the buffed 5/5 kills almost any 4-drop, but then it really is just a clunkier egg. Lategame AoE protection I guess... even I don't want a meta so slow that you'd run 4 mana 1/1s to protect against Flamestrike.
What makes you think that?
FormallyFamicom
Member
I think this is the last week of dripfeed cards. Next week should be the final card dump and classic nerf details if their April 26 release date is honest.
Xamtheking
Member
The 26th date got pulled I believe it was a mistake
Should never have been a thing and how blizzard overlooked that again goes to show the bullshit testing they do. Emp is a strong card, and would still be strong if it only reduced minions instead of all cards. Cheaper spells will keep one turn burst from 30 like this possible.
Theoretical wombo-combo.
Play Deathwing, Dragonlord with Malygos in your hand. If you can trade Deathwing away on your turn, you can play Velen, Embrace the Shadow and Flash Heal for a 20 damage burst. With a single emperor tick, you can hit them with two flash heals and your hero power for 44 damage.
Play Deathwing, Dragonlord with Malygos in your hand. If you can trade Deathwing away on your turn, you can play Velen, Embrace the Shadow and Flash Heal for a 20 damage burst. With a single emperor tick, you can hit them with two flash heals and your hero power for 44 damage.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
My biggest issue with Old Gods so far is it still doesn't address the rise of straight aggro again. Sure things like BGH and Knife nerfs change things.
I just feel like the new cards seem slow to play, and we are back where Face Hunter just wins before it matters.
I just feel like the new cards seem slow to play, and we are back where Face Hunter just wins before it matters.
Yeah Trogg into Golem can made you piss your pant just as Minibot + Coghammer
maybe not as good as muster but still, hero power on turn 3 also maybe not bad option now with that mana cost cheating taunt minion and Master of Evol
these is very dominant curve, easily better than Dragon Priest's.
maybe not as good as muster but still, hero power on turn 3 also maybe not bad option now with that mana cost cheating taunt minion and Master of Evol
these is very dominant curve, easily better than Dragon Priest's.
CraigerGamer
Member
I've been working a Secret Dragon Pally deck for the last 2 months. I think this Deathwing could be very helpful because the flaw of the deck is trying to get the dragons out of your hand in an efficient way. I'm very interested in seeing how to build a deck around this card. Should be fun.
60 cards left to give me hope i don't die by turn 6.
^ No Minibot replacement, be it neutral or something different for each class, is concerning. That 4/4 thing is not gonna cut it for sure.
I dunno, maybe it'll still be good enough but thanks to the overload clunkiness it'll never be Minibot+Muster tier, i.e. best in slot value bombs with no drawbacks.
It's semi-busted in aggro right now because they don't care much about losing turn 3, they'll just fill it with their shitty Abusives, Leper Gnomes and whatnot. I think for midrange the overload is really relevant though, Totemic turns into a dead card and when you chain Totem Golems you can't drop your Hyperyeti on curve. Heavier Midrange lists also tend to be lighter on overload cards and not run Lava Shock so the Trogg doesn't go out of control as easily, and then it's suddenly not that great of a 1-drop unless followed by exactly Totem Golem.
I dunno, maybe it'll still be good enough but thanks to the overload clunkiness it'll never be Minibot+Muster tier, i.e. best in slot value bombs with no drawbacks.
Karsticles
Member
I just had the happiest win against Renolock. I have Savannah Highmane out with the Leokk buff, and he BGHs my Highmane. Well, both of the hyenas proc Juggler to target BGH to kill it in return. :-D
Well, half the time you have the coin which disregards one turn of overload. Maybe the way to get around it is by running value 2 drops and the expectation that you will play a 2 drop on turn 3. Totem Golem is essentially just getting a three drop on turn 2 anyway.
Maybe that makes Master of Evolution worse though, because hitting a 2 drop is a lot worse than hitting a 3. The 4 drops in the game are just on average MUCH stronger than the three drops.
The "tempo loss" argument is not compelling for a couple reasons.
1.) Any tempo loss on Turn 4 is going to be regained on Turn 5. It's like you'll play a 4 mana 5/5 that deals 1 damage, plus whatever you play on Turn 5. That's going to be a huge board swing. And it's almost guaranteed to occur IMMEDIATELY after the turn where you lost tempo.
2.) Most of the cards revealed in Old Gods are very slow. We haven't really seen too much evidence for insane early cards. We don't have any cards like Haunted Creeper, Mounted Raptor, or Shredder that are impossible to punish at their mana cost. So the meta could easily slow down to the point where having a bad Turn 4 is worth having a huge Turn 5.
3.) I usually hate this argument, but it seems to attract some people so I'll say it anyway to convince them. Isn't this a 4 mana 6/6?
I desperately hope this card becomes popular so I can steal the fuck out of it with Priest. Honestly Shadow Madness and Cabal Shadow Priest remaining strong could be enough to push this out. That is if priest can field a semi-competitive deck. If not, well it will be good at farming ladder ranks at low levels anyhow.
Being a 4 mana 6/6 doesn't matter much when the initial body is garbagio. That's too big of a tempo loo up front and the tempo gain isn't as high later on.
It's the Wobbling Runts example. It's technically a 8/12 for 6 but the 2 attack makes it slow unlike Piloted Sky Golem.
Unlike Nerubian Egg which comes out much quicker, is cheaper and returns higher tempo when it dies.
This card has additional weaknesses like being free to Shadow Madness. It's a balanced Nerubian Egg through and through... and balanced sometimes isn't enough to see play.
That said this card might still see play because decks are still going to be thirsty for sticky stuff.
It's the Wobbling Runts example. It's technically a 8/12 for 6 but the 2 attack makes it slow unlike Piloted Sky Golem.
Unlike Nerubian Egg which comes out much quicker, is cheaper and returns higher tempo when it dies.
This card has additional weaknesses like being free to Shadow Madness. It's a balanced Nerubian Egg through and through... and balanced sometimes isn't enough to see play.
That said this card might still see play because decks are still going to be thirsty for sticky stuff.
Twilight Summoner is a balanced Nerubian Egg. It serves the same purpose. Insurance against Consec, something to buff and trade and leave you with a board.
It's just SO vulnerable to Priest I have trouble seeing Zoo playing it. Shadow Madness on turn 4 is game losing, and the card is completely useless in the late game.
It's just SO vulnerable to Priest I have trouble seeing Zoo playing it. Shadow Madness on turn 4 is game losing, and the card is completely useless in the late game.
Wobbling Runts is garbage because the initial body has 6 freaking health. You can't pop that shit and your opponent certainly won't pop it for you. Twilight Summoner can be immediately popped the turn after you play it.
Runts is pretty good if you can taunt it or buff it. There's just no good deck archetype for that kind of play right now.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
It's probably a little bit more like a creeper where you want to keep it alive until the opponent kills it or you absolutely need to use it.
Being 2 mana more than creeper and egg hurts, but creeper and egg are both going away for standard.
Stickiness is a powerful tool, and there's not many minions like that left for standard.
Even when it gets popped, a 4 mana 5/5 that results in tempo loss isn't good. The opponent can just pop the 1/1 and deal with the 5/5 after to prevent the buff/Raptor play... that's no where as punishing as popping Nerubian Egg to deny the buffs/value plays.
I am not saying the card is bad but I feel it's being rated appropriately.
I am not saying the card is bad but I feel it's being rated appropriately.
Just one more year of Emperor bullshit...
Nerfing freeze mage and druid combo should tide us over until then.
Let me address point 2 real quick before going to bed.
It's never that easy, in fact most of us had the exact same hopes before TGT and look how that turned out. The influx of slow cards is almost meaningless for the meta on its own, as long as there's no adequate ways of dealing with high-tempo curve plays people will just take whatever fits that purpose best from the old card pool. Blizz will nerf the worst offenders but any expansion has had more than enough early game drops that, in an aggro shell with attack buffs, just shit on Twilight Summoner. Hell even a C'Thun deck with its prebuilt vanilla curve probably deals with Summoner just fine.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
But you are either using a 2 mana ping or a minion's full attack turn just to pop the 1/1. That makes it harder to efficiently deal with the 5/5 that comes after. It's not like directly playing a 4 mana 5/5.
toddhunter
Member
If your egg gets silenced you don't lose the game.
With all these slow big impact deathrattles people will be running it, so nerfs or priest counters aside, the card will not work.
With all these slow big impact deathrattles people will be running it, so nerfs or priest counters aside, the card will not work.
I would be estatic if my opponent popped the summoner immediately after I played it. Then I would have gotten a 5/5 with an upside. And I don't think you guys should underestimate a 4 mana 5/5. That fights with basically every other 4 drop in the game. Like let's say I'm up against mage and I drop this guy. Mage drops water elemental. I get a 5/5 and they get a 3/5. I win that fight.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Now that's true. I didn't think about that.
I guess bring on the owl nerf to only silence taunt minions.
Karsticles
Member
I just played against this Priest that had nothing but steal-based cards:
Mindgames
Shadow Madness
Thoughtsteal
Mind Vision (this card seems bad?)
Entomb
So I was basically playing against my own deck. I won, but I think he would have won if he didn't misunderstand Grim Patron's proc at one moment in our match. Anyone have experience with this?
Mindgames
Shadow Madness
Thoughtsteal
Mind Vision (this card seems bad?)
Entomb
So I was basically playing against my own deck. I won, but I think he would have won if he didn't misunderstand Grim Patron's proc at one moment in our match. Anyone have experience with this?
When TGT came, GVG and Naxx weren't being rotated out. A HUGE CHUNK of the ridiculously high tempo early plays like Scientist, Minibot, Muster, Shredder, Haunted Creeper, etc are going away in Standard.
Steal Priest and Randouin Wrynn both run those cards (or most of those cards). It used to be more common.
All in steal Priest. Not that good but sometimes the RNG favors him and he steals the best stuff.
Karsticles
Member
He gave me his list; he just threw it together to mess around, so some of these cards can clearly go:
Mind Vision x2
Power Word: Shield x2
Loot Hoarder x2
Recombobulator x2
Shrinkmeister x2
Shadow Word: Death x1
Thoughtsteal x2
Mind Control Technician x2
Mindgames x2
Shadow Madness x2
Kezan Mystic x1
Faceless Manipulator x2
Entomb x2
Cabal Shadow Priest x2
Sylvannas x1
Nefarian x1
Mind Control x2
He said he does well vs. control decks, which interests me. I think it goes in too hard on the steal mechanics, but I wonder if there's something here worth pursuing.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Anduin Thief and Randuin Wrynn have both been around a long time. They're not meant to be serious competitive decks, they're for fun. Having played a ton of Randuin, it wins a surprising amount but still fairly often you just have no chance. Once in a while you'll get some outcomes that are just unbeatable though, and it's always fun.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Control Priest already does well against a lot of control decks, especially now with Entomb and Elise. You don't need to build a pure thief Priest for that.
Deathwing 2 might be too slow even in a slow meta but it's the first new legendary I've seen where I wanted to put it in a deck today.
It has negative synergy with a lot of the dragons (losing the battlecry cripples Twilight Drake, for example) but I think there's a way to build a deck with that in mind.
Maybe Chillmaw or another deathrattle minion can draw out removal so you can run DW2 in a relatively safe position.
DW2 is a decent arena card but if you're playing a 12/12 on turn 10 in arena and you're not in danger of dying immediately from their board, you were probably already winning anyway. I would much rather pick OG Deathwing in Arena.
It has negative synergy with a lot of the dragons (losing the battlecry cripples Twilight Drake, for example) but I think there's a way to build a deck with that in mind.
Maybe Chillmaw or another deathrattle minion can draw out removal so you can run DW2 in a relatively safe position.
DW2 is a decent arena card but if you're playing a 12/12 on turn 10 in arena and you're not in danger of dying immediately from their board, you were probably already winning anyway. I would much rather pick OG Deathwing in Arena.
slightconfuse
Banned
Nothing like initiating a joust and seeing reno pop out of your opponents deck
If you have double Mind Control and double Entomb then you are winning all non Warlock control match ups (and losing against aggro/tempo). Surprised he isn't also running Convert and Sideshow Spelleater.
This shows you how bullshit the claim that freeze mage takes skill to play is. If you aren't playing a heal/armor deck, freeze mage beats you if it draws the cards in the right order. The only skill involved is not fucking up.
Thankfully, the loss of Mad Scientist will make it a little harder for freeze mage to guarantee its ice blocks get out, and hopefully Alex is nerfed to uselessness.
Very tough to win in fatigue against priest when they can just cabal your deathlords, and play 2 of their own, forcing you to draw 4 minions directly from your deck. The only way to beat a priest as a CW in my experience is to bait them into using their Clerics to draw a bunch of cards. An experienced priest player who avoids drawing cards--crazy hard to win. Gotta pray your Golden Monkey gives you significantly better cards than theirs does
Karsticles
Member
That moment when you steal Dr. Boom from your opponent and get to play him first. :-O
I am not very good at Hearthstone, but even I am getting a 66% win rate with totem shaman deck. Any turn that I have to play a totem because of awkward overload gets turned into a bonus with the synergy cards.
EDIT: Currently rank 8 with it.
Yesterday I played a game against CW, he had the upper hand until he threw out two Acolytes of pain onto the board with 7 cards in hand, suddenly all those circle of healing, pw:s, flash heals, wild pyro didn't seem so bad