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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Hopefully he learned something from that interaction.
Because I'm seeing a lot of people misplaying with Dirty Rat.
We keep talking about "skillcap" cards, is Rat one of them? What about Jade Idol? Because it took Druid players a while to figure out that shuffling three idols into your deck on turn one was a bad play, and it's taking Renolocks a while to figure out that maybe Dirty Rat on curve isn't a good play either.
I need to know from both of these cases, how is jade idol and dirty rat correctly played?
slightconfuse
Banned
You want to play Jade golem on turn 1 so the rest of your Jade cards get better . Addingore cards early decreases your chance to draw them. You want to shuffle when you are ready to go off with auctioneer
Dirty rat us played in late game because you opponent will be holding on to a card like Reno they want to use later. It's
In the early game with Jade Idol you want to summon a Jade Idol. In some match-ups, you might never choose Shuffle, because you don't need infinite Idols to win, you need Tempo and board control. If you shuffle turn one, and your opponent ends up with board control and you're hoping to draw Swipe, or Ancient of War, or Nourish or even Raven Idol in order to get an answer, you're less likely to do that because you have a bunch of extra Idols making it less likely you'll draw into your good cards.
In the mid to late game, or if you have Fandral on board or Gadgetzan, then Shuffle can a good play.
With Dirty Rat, that card is super situational. If you have a good read on your opponent's hand and you feel like Dirty Rat is going to pull a one-drop then you might drop Rat on Curve. If you opponent plays a Doomsayer. If they have three quality minions on board and you have an MC Tech in hand. (I had a guy Dirty Rat /MC Tech me when I had 3 totems. Gave me a free Aya and him a free 1/1 so, so I think I got the better end of the deal). If you have removal in hand. If you're planning to follow it up with Twisiting Nether.
Tap/pass is a better turn two than a Yolo Dirty Rat that might lose you the game.
Shuffling 3 extra Jade Idol cards into your deck on turn one dilutes your deck and makes it harder to draw cards on curve or answers to your opponents board.
Playing Dirty Rat at the right time can remove a win condition. Pull a Reno out of your opponents hand and it's pretty much instant concede. Timing it right means knowing the meta, knowing your opponent's deck, having an idea of what cards are in your opponent's hand, and then a little luck that the right minion gets pulled out.
Jade Druid & Jade Idol:
It's important to increase the size of your Jade Golems early, so that your other Jade cards are harder to deal with when they are played. If you slow your Jade Golems down by shuffling Jade Idol then you weaken half of your other cards. An early Jade Idol shuffle effectively says, "All your Jade Golems have -1/-1"
You are also adding cards to your deck that you don't want in the early to mid-game. You only want those 1 drops if you know a game is going to go long against a control opponent. So shuffle the second one or combo it with Fandrel if the game is going long.
Renolock & Dirty Rat:
How Dirty Rat is played completely depends on your opponents deck. Against face decks it might be a good turn 2 play, but you are always taking a risk, even face decks play good 3 and 4 drops, which could lose you game if pulled out. Against anything slower than a face deck the should be saved for very specific situations.
The card is most useful when you know you can deal with whatever it can pull out. One of the best combos is to play it on a turn when you are going to clear the board, so that you kill 1 extra minion.
In some match ups you know your opponent has a card that uses a battlecry or other effect to create value. So you want to pull those cards out. If your opponent is passing turns it's likely they are waiting on part of a combo, so Dirty Rat could mess up their combo by pulling out a card and denying it's battlecry. An example would be trying to pull out Leeroy or Faceless manipulator from a Warlocks hand when you suspect he is holding it.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Is Reno Priest a thing or was that just a random ass deck I encountered last night? LoL
Speaking of Dirty Rat... Have any of you played dirty rat when the enemy has a full board... If so does the minion you pull out just die or....? I'd assume yea but with HS ya never know... the battlecry could just not proc lol
It's a thing.. and if built right it's pretty good actually.
It's a thing.. and if built right it's pretty good actually.
Pretty sure the battle cry just doesn't fire like noble sac won't if the pally has a full board.
Went through rank 7 with only one loss,and now I'm 5 stars away from rank 5 and I'm still on a streak. I'm actually getting some ladder anxiety, which has been an issue for me since I started with this game but I thought was cured when I hit my goal of rank 5 realized it wasn't the impossible hill my mind had made it out to be. I should have realized the fact that I can easily get rank 6 but was having huge trouble getting to 5 meant it was more a mental issue than a skill issue, but it's only obvious in retrospect.
Anyway, I'm feeling the ghost of that old anxiety so I'm going to wait until this evening to make the final push, and then I might start exploring some more of what MSG has to offer.
I still have an issue with Tilt, and the way I've overcome that is by stepping away from the game after an "unfair" loss or whenever I lose two in a row. (Both of those have been rare the last two weeks so I have been able to efficiently climb).
5 is my goal and I'll be happy once I get there, but with two weeks left in the season I'm going to keep pushing and see what happens. I doubt I'll hit legend, but I would like to make a new personal best end of season rank.
Anyway, I'm feeling the ghost of that old anxiety so I'm going to wait until this evening to make the final push, and then I might start exploring some more of what MSG has to offer.
I still have an issue with Tilt, and the way I've overcome that is by stepping away from the game after an "unfair" loss or whenever I lose two in a row. (Both of those have been rare the last two weeks so I have been able to efficiently climb).
5 is my goal and I'll be happy once I get there, but with two weeks left in the season I'm going to keep pushing and see what happens. I doubt I'll hit legend, but I would like to make a new personal best end of season rank.
Pirate warrior has basically gone to shit now
How is that a bad thing?
Karsticles
Member
Pirate warrior has basically gone to shit now
I watched Dahbomb lose to it on turn 5 last night - he had absolutely zero options to save the situation. Seems good to me.
Interfectum
Member
perfect, much more clear now, thanks. I got a dirty rat from my packs but I haven't actually used one, to be honest I haven't used a reno deck yet since I'm not so sure how to play them
LyleLanley
Banned
Dirty rat is great if you can answer whatever it pulls out right away, a turn 2 dirty rat is almost never the right move. Turn 8 Brann - Rat - MC Tech is the best.
It's all dependent on matchup, imo. I would probably play Turn 2 Dirty Rat against Warrior, Paladin, and maybe Hunter.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Seem to be capped out at rank 10 with my personal dragon priest variant.
Need to mull over some tweaks I think.
Shaman tends to give me the most trouble. Jade Druid is only an issue if I draw bad and they get the idols ahead of me. Pirate Warrior just depends on if I get my taunts. If so it's GG.
Aggro Shaman tends to wreck my face though.
Need to mull over some tweaks I think.
Shaman tends to give me the most trouble. Jade Druid is only an issue if I draw bad and they get the idols ahead of me. Pirate Warrior just depends on if I get my taunts. If so it's GG.
Aggro Shaman tends to wreck my face though.
And then you pull Soggoth / Tirion / Highmane, lol.
Always possible, but I think if you play the odds you'll gain more by playing it early. Better to understand the average result rather than focus on the few times it backfires.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
In theory people won't keep those cards in their hand as they are dead cards in your hand initially. So they'd swap them out.
You could still get burned, but the odds would in theory be in your favor over the long haul.
Think I agree with Zealous to a degree.
True. I was being a bit cheeky, and maybe a bit results-oriented because I've always come out ahead against a deck that Dirty Rats me on curve. The lowest value minion it's pulled from my deck has been Azure Drake, and the spellpower over the first few turns of the game enabled me to get so far ahead on board that my opponent couldn't recover.
I think I'd be watching the mulligan phase closely if I was thinking about Dirty Rat on curve. If they kept all their cards, it's unlikely they have late-game, so I'd feel good about plopping it down. If they mulliganned all their cards, I probably wouldn't play Rat unless I can tell from their turn one that their deck's average minion isn't going to have much value.
On the topic of Warrior lists you don't want to Dirty Rat against, Fibo posted a new warrior list I want to try, but I didn't pull Sleep with the Fishes and I don't want to craft it because it's an Epic and I'll probably pull it sooner than later anyway.
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't play the kinds of aggro decks where an on-curve Dirty Rat might work.
Certainly you don't want to Dirty Rat against Control Warrior. But, 99 times out of a 100 in this meta, the Warrior is Pirate, not Control.
You're not wrong in what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that it does take skill to make the read that a Dirty Rat on curve is a safe play. I don't think it should ever be YOLOed out, but if they opened with N'zoth's First Mate or you otherwise have made the read that their hand is full of weenie minions, it's probably good to Rat on curve. If a warrior passes turn one, I don't think I would. The upside isn't worth the risk in that situation.
This kind of discussion is why I like the card so much. It's a powerful card if you can use it correctly, and I think right now a lot of people aren't using it correctly.
This is the attitude of somebody who never takes a risk, even when the odds are in your favor.
If i'm up against a pirate warrior, I am slamming that puppy down. Don't care if I have a 5% chance to pull Leeroy, it'll play in my favor more often than not.
mysteriousmage09
Member
jesus christ this brawl is hot garbage.
99% of 'em are, but at least there's a free pack for putting up with it.
And the Diablo themed brawl we're getting in January should be interesting at least.
Yep. Dirty Rat turn 2 against aggro decks like Hunter or Pirate Warrior is game winning sometimes. Yes you can lose by gifting them a Leeroy or Highmane, but nearly always it ends up better for you. Slowing those kind of decks down by 6 HP is often enough for you to stablize and either draw Reno or other healing. The times it's saved me so far seem to greatly outweight the times it's lost me the game. At least when you are intelligently guessing what kind of deck your opponent has.
Never play it Turn 2 against a Priest or anything else that you might expect to be a combo or control deck, but against aggro, it's really good turn 2, IMO.
mysteriousmage09
Member
It wouldn't be so bad if not for the fucking pausing for dialogue CONSTANTLY. And holy shit they made Aya annoying as fuck.
Then of course the fact this brawl is weeks late and is nothing more than garbage versions of standard decks.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've had dirty rat pull out an emperor once, and a mountain giant once. I still managed to win both games. Because as good as emperor is, it honestly isn't even that good in renolock unless you hit the right cards anyway. And with mountain giant I had the board to take it down to 1 health, when it got healed to 4, where I had hellfire + coil.
Renolock is just that good of a deck that it can handle things when dirty rat whiffs. BTW, when I watched the replay (to see their hand), it was my opponent who got lucky on those pulls and I was vastly favored to pull weak minions both time.
I didn't have the sound on, played while doing desk work, and won the first game I played as Paladin vs Priest. Pack was garbage though, and I have to do it twice more on the other servers.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
Pirate warrior has basically gone to shit now
Miracle Rogue is the new Pirate Warrior. 1 million times better.
Karsticles
Member
Is it Miracle Pirates?
http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/miracle-pirate-rogue-deck-list-guide-standard/
I think variants of this list are the ones that are tearing up ladder recently.
I have been saying every day since Dirty Rat was released that it's one of the highest skill cap cards in the game. Net Deckers see people put Dirty Rat in their deck and see pro players singing it praises but when they use it fails for them. Kazakus as well.
Use of Dirty Rat is match up dependent but more importantly dependent on both your hand and the opponent's hand. If I am going into turn 8 with a Twisting Nether in hand and a Bran plus Rat... I am going to Bran plus Rat on turn 7 to make them play into Twisting. And that's just a small application of the card.
And Dirty Rat on curve is good in some match ups mainly Pirate Warrior. Worst pull is Leeroy and even that is fine because it will probably trade with the rat versus going to your face.
As far as Jade Idol is concerned... this card is not that hard to play but it's an easy trap for new players. New players small till think that adding more cards to your deck is godlike (ie. Prince Malchazaar). This card is like a learning curve card, it teaches you about fundamentals of cards. In most match ups you play Jade Idol as a 1/1 especially if you have two in your deck. If you sense that the match will go the distance then you save the other Jade Idol for Gadgetan combos and draws so you can put more in your deck and then potentially draw them within the same turn for some tempo.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
yea that one. all kinds of fun tech to do. i dropped an si agent for beneath the grounds just for fun. cant remember who mentioned it yesterday but i had originally done a smashburdgler....put that back in
I think it's more appropriate to say that cards like Jade Idol have a higher skill floor than a skill cap.
Once you understand the underlying theory behind playing Jade idol appropriately, there is very little decision making involved. You almost always play the first one for the body, and then with the second one you play the body in a more aggressive matchup or you shuffle in the very late game against control. You don't need to be a pro to understand that.
Another example of a card with a high skill floor would be Fel Reaver. You have to understand the underlying theory as to why a card like that is good before you can use it properly. But once you understand the theory, you're kind of set.
Karsticles
Member
It's so hard to choose between crafting Edwin+2x Prep, Tirion+2x Mysterious Challenger, Patches, and Raza. :-/
Thanks for the link.
slightconfuse
Banned
won the brawl as grimy goons. dropped to bring taunt minnons followed by doppleganster
It's kind of a meme that the day you finally cave in and craft Prep you'll start pulling them packs, lol.
It sort of happened to me, after I crafted Edwin the next pack I opened had Edwin in it. I was so mad.
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