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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Karsticles
Member
Yup. Hunter runs PPP just fine with Glaivezooka in Wild.
Which just exasperates the issue as hunter would then be disgusting. (Seen with glaizezooka)
I don't think it's good for the game if the ONLY viable aggro route is so all in on a class having an early game weapon. Yet it's going to be the case as long as Patches is in the game unless they somehow make something even more broken.
How 'bout a hunter weapon that just buffs their hero power (better/empowered ammo + keeps ranged weapon ranged). It would have 0 attack and its durability would be reduced upon hero power (It would be an "Inspire weapon").
Justicar is only good for a few classes. I think they should open up more design space with hero powers.
If the next expansion/adventure is ICC, they could have Arthas be a start of game effect legendary like Prince M. He replaces your hero and hero power and puts some undead in your deck or something similar. It would be an easier way to add more classes in a pseudo sort of way. Even better, the start of game effect just makes your character a deathknight / replaces/augments hero power and Arthas goes in your deck. His power would grow with each soul you collect with your hero power before playing him (combo of C'Thun and Bolvar).
Justicar is only good for a few classes. I think they should open up more design space with hero powers.
If the next expansion/adventure is ICC, they could have Arthas be a start of game effect legendary like Prince M. He replaces your hero and hero power and puts some undead in your deck or something similar. It would be an easier way to add more classes in a pseudo sort of way. Even better, the start of game effect just makes your character a deathknight / replaces/augments hero power and Arthas goes in your deck. His power would grow with each soul you collect with your hero power before playing him (combo of C'Thun and Bolvar).
Reno is super broken especially if you can bounce him back or dupe him. Just like Brann is broken. Just like Dragon Operative is Broken. Just like Pirates are probably broke.
They all balance each other out though so I don't give af
[edit] just re-read sorry if I seem to be rude to ZealousD I am not trying to be lol
Hunter needs a redesign because the class design is crap. The only way to ever play is play stuff on curve, usually beasts then hero power/face the opponent down. The second a class comes in that does that better than Hunter then they are made irrelevant again.
Shaman too. Far too much base RNG spread in the class. Random totems and random damage ranges on spells are bad to base a whole class around.
Shaman too. Far too much base RNG spread in the class. Random totems and random damage ranges on spells are bad to base a whole class around.
Someone correct me if I am wrong and probably am wrong. But I am thinking pirates cannot be changed until Reno rotates out. It is my goal to kill reno decks before turn 6 ideally and pirates make this possible for a slightly above average player.
I think this balances it out
Problem with my line of thought is that this narrows the meta and makes it so any decks that does not out-control Reno decks or out-aggros them will lose.
Also keep in mind I am thinking about the 'average or slightly above player'. I think of myself, at best, as slightly above average. I am not really sure where I fall-- but I do know I have way less experience then most of you (I start in WoTG and can never really close that gap if you follow)
I think this balances it out
Problem with my line of thought is that this narrows the meta and makes it so any decks that does not out-control Reno decks or out-aggros them will lose.
Also keep in mind I am thinking about the 'average or slightly above player'. I think of myself, at best, as slightly above average. I am not really sure where I fall-- but I do know I have way less experience then most of you (I start in WoTG and can never really close that gap if you follow)
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If pirates became weaker, than you can build greedier decks to beat reno. It's not a problem.
It turns out it took 6 hours and 15 minutes to play World of Warcraft for the first time (besides a very brief trial a long time ago) and get level 20 with a troll druid.
Unfortunately I then found out I'm horrible with paladin, but at least I got the skin.
I'm not sure how new players could get level 20 in 3 hours like a guide I saw suggested. I could have probably trimmed it to 6 hours if I knew what I was doing and died less in some dungeons, but the guide mentioned cat form at level 6 and druid gets it at level 8 now. Maybe Blizzard slowed down the leveling with changes like that.
Unfortunately I then found out I'm horrible with paladin, but at least I got the skin.
I'm not sure how new players could get level 20 in 3 hours like a guide I saw suggested. I could have probably trimmed it to 6 hours if I knew what I was doing and died less in some dungeons, but the guide mentioned cat form at level 6 and druid gets it at level 8 now. Maybe Blizzard slowed down the leveling with changes like that.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Most decks goal isn't to win before turn 6 and they still can beat reno. What most decks cannot do is consistently beat aggro decks without teching against them, and at the same time beating reno decks. If I don't have to tech hard against aggro with a standard control deck, I can beat reno consistently and still beat aggro enough.
I did it with a really good tempo mage start (in Wild). It was something like Mana Wyrm, coin Mirror Image, into double book, into an unanswered Flamewaker into a bunch of burn spells all pointed face. They died one turn before Reno was playable.
What a world we live in where Midrange Hunter is a "greedier" deck.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think midrange hunter has ever really flourished in a meta with strong aggro decks. Maybe sometimes with zoo.
But yeah, midrange hunter can probably beat reno decks consistently.
I'm also thinking of rogue lists not running patches, like maly rogue or even maly druid. There are plenty of non-reno decks that could flourish in a less aggressive meta.
Right on! I miss Tempo Mage guys. I'd be down for balance pass if Tempo Mage can become great again. Granted, haven't really given it a fair shot since MSoG since it didnt get any new exciting toys
Midrange Hunter might be the hardest counter to Reno decks in the game. Strong sticky minions with infinite hero power burn. When you rely on board clears and strong heals to win, that one-two punch is nearly impossible to overcome.
It's not even that the deck is that slow right now. Alley Cat and Fiery Bat give it two solid 1 drops. The problem is that it just can't compete with Patches.
yall rated solia highly? lol.
tempo 5/5 on turn 7 or later, k.
card's so expensive it doesn't allow for anything more than that.
midrange feels pretty dead, outside of shaman.
I don't know about greedy decks but built in counters exist to Renolock.
Most notably Midrange Hunter and Tempo Mage. The constant burn and minions on curve pressure Renolock and force Reno in unfavorable situations. Flamewaker alone can crush Renolock if they don't get Shadow Bolt. Malygos Druid also does well against Renolock by just comboing them down and of course classic Miracoli and Freeze Mage. Hell even Midrange Shaman teched a certain way can beat Renolock with just steady Totems and Bloodlust finisher (like they used to back in the day).
The issue with ALL of these decks is that they lose to Patches except anti aggro Midrange Shaman but then anti aggro Shaman loses to Renolock. The irony is that Patches decks have created a situation where Renolock is allowed to succeed only checked by Patches decks. And if Patches wasn't there then Jade decks would flourish even more.
Also if they print more expensive but good Mage spells then Solia keeps getting more value especially post rotation.
Most notably Midrange Hunter and Tempo Mage. The constant burn and minions on curve pressure Renolock and force Reno in unfavorable situations. Flamewaker alone can crush Renolock if they don't get Shadow Bolt. Malygos Druid also does well against Renolock by just comboing them down and of course classic Miracoli and Freeze Mage. Hell even Midrange Shaman teched a certain way can beat Renolock with just steady Totems and Bloodlust finisher (like they used to back in the day).
The issue with ALL of these decks is that they lose to Patches except anti aggro Midrange Shaman but then anti aggro Shaman loses to Renolock. The irony is that Patches decks have created a situation where Renolock is allowed to succeed only checked by Patches decks. And if Patches wasn't there then Jade decks would flourish even more.
Rated 4/5 in Reno Mage. If the card sees SOME play then it's not too off base because only good cards see play. We have to wait and see.
Also if they print more expensive but good Mage spells then Solia keeps getting more value especially post rotation.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I like how I said greedier decks, transformed in to greedy decks.
Tempo Mage is favored against Reno decks, really?
I would have figured that Tempo Mage relies on using burn as a finisher so much that once Reno comes down, that healing usually puts the Mage out of range of finishing the game. Tempo Mage doesn't run that many minions.
I must admit the thought of Patches & friends getting 'balanced' used to trigger me but if Tempo Mage can return to Tier 1 (or at least Tier 2) and see competitive play once more I am down for balance changes with open arms. I used to play Hunter a lot as well but for some reason I never miss playing the class. Guess cause its so one dimensional? But Tempo Mage I felt like I had soooooo many options and soooo much burn. I miss playing the deck dearly.
I now recall trying to make tempo mage decks post-MSoG and got shat on during the trial runs. I assumed it was cause I sucked (even tho I have like all Mage legendaries literally)- but now I realize its cause of the new meta.
Thanks I now feel enlightened lol
I now recall trying to make tempo mage decks post-MSoG and got shat on during the trial runs. I assumed it was cause I sucked (even tho I have like all Mage legendaries literally)- but now I realize its cause of the new meta.
Thanks I now feel enlightened lol
Tempo Mage used to be favored, may still be.
Tempo Mage can grind out Renolock thanks to stuff like card draw and Cabalist's Tome. They can have Rag and Antonidas for late game finishers. They have stuff like Faceless Summoners, Water Elemental, Ethereal Conjurer and Azure Drake to keep drawing and putting threats. With stuff like Babbling Book they can get stuff that is hard to play around. Also Mirror Entity on turn 3 to deny Mountain Giant/Drake.
Then you have certain Tempo Mage games where you have double Mana Wyrm unanswered or Flamewaker unanswered which leads to a very fast win. The availability of burn means Renolock can't use Jaraxxus to close out the game until they have seen all the burn including Torches.
Notice this Tempo Mage I am describing is more Midrange oriented and greedier. It can beat Renolock but this version of Tempo Mage gets steamrolled against Patches decks. Hell the normal faster Tempo Mage gets rolled by Patches decks.
My point is that if PPP isn't in the meta it allows more space to counter Renolocks.
Tempo Mage can grind out Renolock thanks to stuff like card draw and Cabalist's Tome. They can have Rag and Antonidas for late game finishers. They have stuff like Faceless Summoners, Water Elemental, Ethereal Conjurer and Azure Drake to keep drawing and putting threats. With stuff like Babbling Book they can get stuff that is hard to play around. Also Mirror Entity on turn 3 to deny Mountain Giant/Drake.
Then you have certain Tempo Mage games where you have double Mana Wyrm unanswered or Flamewaker unanswered which leads to a very fast win. The availability of burn means Renolock can't use Jaraxxus to close out the game until they have seen all the burn including Torches.
Notice this Tempo Mage I am describing is more Midrange oriented and greedier. It can beat Renolock but this version of Tempo Mage gets steamrolled against Patches decks. Hell the normal faster Tempo Mage gets rolled by Patches decks.
My point is that if PPP isn't in the meta it allows more space to counter Renolocks.
These are the decks in the meta:
1.) Decks /w Patches in them
2.) Decks that beat decks /w Patches in them
Somehow this created a world where we have half a dozen Tier 1 decks, which might make the meta look healthy, but really everything is revolving around this particular style of aggro deck.
It's like Patches & co are the ones that are restricting the design space and NOT the other way around! As is tradition, everyone (even the dev team it seems) undervalues the power of the 1 drops in Hearthstone.
Patches, STB, and cards like Tunnel Trogg feel like they exist to quell the community yelling about how X archetype sucks (Pirate cards in this case, but Shaman in general in the other). So rather than redesign the class which might benefit the game more substantially over the long term, the designers patch (haha puns!) things up and send them out. I can't blame them either, reworking the classes which need it most (Hunter, Shaman) would be an insane amount of work especially in the case of Shaman which has somehow moved to embrace the shitty RNG of their class hero power even though a more consitent one would be better for them long term.
Printing cards to quell community voices about X or Y deck/archetype wouldn't be such a bad way to go, except that due to the lack of communication from the team we have no idea when/if any criticism is going to be answered. It feels like yelling into a black hole, and then we get statements like the devs don't want to produce community facing content because the community is too toxic since all it does is yell. And the lack of communication produces more toxicity, and the cycle continues. It's just sad that the state we're in is probably not fixable in the near term. As much as I'd love something like monthly videos (or posts even!) from the team talking about the state of the game or whatever, I doubt anything like that surfaces. The team spends their limited resources on making the game and things like this are secondary for the most part. So big picture and long term ideas end up getting backseats to keeping the lights on an the money rolling. That is why we get the expansions/adventures released on schedule (mostly) and the big ticket (in game tournaments) or quality of life changes (deckslots) take for-fucking-ever or don't show up at all. Production realities suck!
I don't really have a point with all of that above, but I just wish things were different and we could live in the world where Hearthstone was a better, awesomer game, rather than just being a good, awesome game. Sorry for the inane rambling.
Tempo mage is really strong in wild.
Even though of course not as strong as patches, but he is a stupid card.
Yeah I keep thinking only way I could reach Legend is to rent a hotel for a few days. My one friend that's married with kids gets sooo close but he plays Hearthstone while watching TV and I've not noticed his wife complain. But mine does complain so I'm screwed
That's okay I watch the streamers climb and the way they always say things like- "Yay guys we did it!" That makes me feel a part of the team. LOL. It's effective I guess. I am currently subbing Trump cause I met him person and he seems nice and actually responded to my stupid fan mail
Karsticles
Member
I play a Tempo Mage variant, and I've found it to consistently beat Renolock. The general strategy is to keep playing threats the Warlock has to deal with while building up a hand of Antonidas + three 1-mana spells. Continually go face against the Warlock and try to get its health down to ~15. This forces the player to use Reno out of fear of Fireball + Fireball + Frostbolt combo, and that's when you dump Antonidas so you have over 30 burst damage in your hand.
It's not guaranteed, but most Renolocks don't plan for that kind of setup.
It's not guaranteed, but most Renolocks don't plan for that kind of setup.
well to Wild I'll go I guess
Just cant get into renomage. It's a fine deck but I miss the burn
Yeah I left wild due to how unpredictable it is. Now I am laddering in standard with Dragon Pirate Warrior and its going really fast.
Also that deck is actually fun to play in contrast to standard aggro pirate warrior.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I recall seeing someone say they ranked up well with tempo mage. Tempo mage isn't that bad of a deck right now tbh. Mirror images can be a particularly strong card against aggro, especially as another 1 cost spell to fuel flamewaker. And well placed mirror image can shut down aggro warrior.
Yeah me too. I only really get to rank seriously when my wife goes to bed, and at night all the best players are ranking it seems. When I do get a chance during the day I tend to rank much faster.
But yeah following the streamers is a great thing for me aswell. And even though I have played since Beta I still feel like I learn alot. My personal favourites are Savjz and Strifecro.
eh, I thought I had all the Mage legendaries but I'm actually missing Anomalus. Guess that's a good thing cause I would've been crazy enuff to try to use him
guess I can try my old karazhan decks again and see.
guess I can try my old karazhan decks again and see.
I feel you.
Busy with works and tired to play after work.
And playing with renolock isn't helping at all cuz it could take you into more than 15 minutes.
I'm seriously considering to play aggro again even though I'm not enjoying it all.
Yeah I really have no desire to hit Legend. I only do Ranked for my Golden blue card and one day to get a Golden Rogue and/or Mage. And only reason I want Golden heroes is just for the cool looking animation. Now Rank 5 is a little tempting for a Golden Epic but to be honest I have no huge issue opening my wallet for dust. But I think I'll keep it closed for now unless a new optional hero avatar is added or a new expansion/adventure preorder is made available.
(Game could use more useless vanity items I just know I've spent way more on League of Legends just so I could dance in my useless, shiny skins)
(Game could use more useless vanity items I just know I've spent way more on League of Legends just so I could dance in my useless, shiny skins)
Yeah you are probably right.
Exactly. With the way the ranking system is set up you feel forced into playing aggro, even if you hate it.
Its just a very badly designet system.
Nah, dumpster legend is full of people who don't care about their MMR and play off-meta decks just for fun. You can't fall out of legend and if you're not gunning for top 200 the final rank doesn't matter one bit.
You can just play the game and rank up naturally with any deck you enjoy playing.
Seriously, you can i checked.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You can't just use old decks in a new meta. You gotta update them first.
/r/wildhearthstone created their own wild tier list at this link.
The guys behind it say they are "top legend" in Wild but I haven't seen their credentials. Still thought it was interesting and might spark some conversation.
The guys behind it say they are "top legend" in Wild but I haven't seen their credentials. Still thought it was interesting and might spark some conversation.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't like their Secret Paladin list at all
they just made a couple cuts to a stock list for PPP, it's much too top heavy with 7 5+ drops.
I first clicked it and thought I had clicked something wrong because the tier list looked like the Standard tier list.
Seems about right from my own experience as well. Not sure if I would put Renolock with those other tier 1 decks though.
Secret Paladin finally dethroned and not really surprising. One of the ways people used to beat Secret Paladin was to just play faster. Deathrattle minions just can't keep up with this new aggression. Like you play a Haunted Crepe and think you have played one of the best two drops in the game and secured board but they just continue to go face. Secret Pally lacks the heals and their first taunt comes down turn 5. It very possible that Secret Pally will adapt by using PPP too.
I don't understand they didnt give Tempo mages anything but a middle finger this expansion. Only card I could work in is er- Manic soulcaster so I can dupe flamewaker
Guess I'll go netdeck. I hope it's not gonna be a bunch of doomsayers. Checking now
edit: Seeing a lot of Freeze mage decks for gadgetzan. Looks like I am fated to always be hated by my opponents lol. At least havent gotten any rage friend requests lately ever since I stopped playing Hunter & reno rogue (actually it was renolock that got me the last rage friend request I declined in Wild)
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