It's not only about power. It's about what cards sees most play and Thalnos is high on the list thanks to all the Shamans (and Rogues) around.
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Shamans don't play it anymore. Only rogue plays it. Actually recent rogue lists are cutting him too. Thalnos was never auto include like Azure Drake has been.
With that logic you want to remove Tirion or Sylvanas too because every paladin deck ever has had Tirion and will forever and any control deck might want to have Sylvanas... at that point might as well remove classic set which they are not willing to.
A card like gadgetzan auctioneer to be removed is far more likely than thalnos and more effective for changing meta, who cares about thalnos. Removing gadgetzan might actually change rogue class.
With that logic you want to remove Tirion or Sylvanas too because every paladin deck ever has had Tirion and will forever and any control deck might want to have Sylvanas... at that point might as well remove classic set which they are not willing to.
A card like gadgetzan auctioneer to be removed is far more likely than thalnos and more effective for changing meta, who cares about thalnos. Removing gadgetzan might actually change rogue class.
Karsticles
Member
Some cards see play not because they are overpowered, but because there are so few options.
well, yeah. I'm not saying Rag is overpowered but it's like the only option beating some of the class options. you rather play this over Al'Akir or King Krush or whatever else.
Thalnos is closer to sylvanas, if my deck is about spell damage/combo (or control with Sylvanas), I want to have this card. How many decks have been about spell damage in this game ever? only because there are some new shaman cards it saw play in shaman. That's exactly what they want to do, making new cards that help less used old cards.
Azure Drake was rarely played for its spell damage. What use for spell damage warrior or priest have? yeah. It's a different problem with Drake. Not because it has spell damage and craw draw so both have to go, that's not how it works.
Thalnos is closer to sylvanas, if my deck is about spell damage/combo (or control with Sylvanas), I want to have this card. How many decks have been about spell damage in this game ever? only because there are some new shaman cards it saw play in shaman. That's exactly what they want to do, making new cards that help less used old cards.
Azure Drake was rarely played for its spell damage. What use for spell damage warrior or priest have? yeah. It's a different problem with Drake. Not because it has spell damage and craw draw so both have to go, that's not how it works.
They play two of those. Obviously it's going to see more play. This is just about Thalnos.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Gadgetzan Auctioneer is the first thing to come to my mind.
You do see a lot of Thalnos and Azure Drake, but those cards are always supplemental, and thus I don't think makes things too samey. Gadgetzan Auctioneer on the other hand is an entire deck archetype that keeps coming back.
Though I wouldn't be upset if Thalnos and Azure Drake go away.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I want more than full refunds, they should give out dust when they do w/o requiring a disenchant they can reduce the disenchanting value of the card in return.
One question though is would they remove them from classic packs as well?
One question though is would they remove them from classic packs as well?
Every card game does it and really when it comes to legacy some cards have a better base than other classes currently (Hi Shaman). Not to mention it limits generally interesting cards like Reno.
Rotations will prove how necessary these cards are like they did last year but it could just dumpster entire classes again ala priest last year.
Have they ever given dust refunds like that after a rotation?
They could just say, "You can always use it...in wild!"
Pretty sure I am going to uninstall the game if Jaraxxus gets rotated aka banned out.
BigJonsson
Member
I think they should buff rather than nerf! I want super legends
I am pretty sure it is to axe long term problematic cards like Leeroy.
We don't know what Blizzard considers as problematic but more importantly it's about those auto include cards that are used in every one of the class decks ever.
I am thinking stuff like Innervate. They said Basic cards too and of course they aren't god damn talking about cards like Senjin and Yeti here.
This can potentially be really terrible for new players because some of the class basic cards was the only way they could get anything going. Imagine having to construct a F2P Druid deck and not have access to Innervate and Swipe as a new player.
This also means that Freeze Mage might finally be RIP in peace.
I am thinking stuff like Innervate. They said Basic cards too and of course they aren't god damn talking about cards like Senjin and Yeti here.
This can potentially be really terrible for new players because some of the class basic cards was the only way they could get anything going. Imagine having to construct a F2P Druid deck and not have access to Innervate and Swipe as a new player.
This also means that Freeze Mage might finally be RIP in peace.
That's what I'm wondering about. How do they even rotate Basic cards out? You can't craft or dust them. What if you have a mage to say, level 40. Now you'd have to very slowly gain your way to level 50 just to get the new Basic cards?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
make new basic cards. Simple.
Yeah, but unless they give them to all level 10+ characters for free (has Blizzard done this in the past? I'm a very new player), gaining 10 levels to earn cards with wins is slow at higher levels, like 40-50 or 50-60. And if the Basic cards lost were important, it might be even tougher to consistently win through that range.
I don't think we will hear about this anytime soon so I am not going to say much else about it.
Rotating classic cards out always made sense but rotating Basic cards out would be a huge mistake. Unless there is some massive compensation which is LUL because HS is the stingiest card game out there.
Rotating classic cards out always made sense but rotating Basic cards out would be a huge mistake. Unless there is some massive compensation which is LUL because HS is the stingiest card game out there.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
no they haven't, but if they plan to rotate classic or basic cards they have to make more cards anyways. Rotating the basics will have the most impact and is the easiest way to stir archetypes.
why?
True. I guess I'm more confused than anything. We'll all get to discuss this again in like 4 months.
Here's why I think it would be a bad idea:
*Rotating out basic cards is terrible for the new player experience. The lower the amount of free cards that new players can attain the worst their experience is going to be bad. I remember when I was a new player I leaned so heavily on the powerful basic cards to see me through games.
*A lot of the Basic cards are heavily engraved into the class identity of a card. I can't imagine them rotating out stuff like Fireball/Innervate/War Axe even though every class deck uses those cards. You are kinda taking the identity of the classes out of you take out cards like those.
*What happens to the players who had these cards before but now don't? Will they be turned into commons so we can DE them for negligible costs? What if they don't and I want to earn them again? Imagine of they keep the unlock requirements... Get lvl10 with Shaman to unlock Fire Elemental! Oh wait that card is Wild only get screwed!
*How are they going to balance the classes by removing some staples? Rogues have gotten such mediocre cards in the previous 3 expansions that removing some of their basic cards would be catastrophic for them. That would mean that for balancing they would have to release some blatant power creep cards for Rogues in the newer expansions but instead we might get a Shaman like situation where classes who got the nuts in expansions dominate everything. Blizzard has historically been very poor when it comes to balancing classes via expansions.
*Rotating out basic cards is terrible for the new player experience. The lower the amount of free cards that new players can attain the worst their experience is going to be bad. I remember when I was a new player I leaned so heavily on the powerful basic cards to see me through games.
*A lot of the Basic cards are heavily engraved into the class identity of a card. I can't imagine them rotating out stuff like Fireball/Innervate/War Axe even though every class deck uses those cards. You are kinda taking the identity of the classes out of you take out cards like those.
*What happens to the players who had these cards before but now don't? Will they be turned into commons so we can DE them for negligible costs? What if they don't and I want to earn them again? Imagine of they keep the unlock requirements... Get lvl10 with Shaman to unlock Fire Elemental! Oh wait that card is Wild only get screwed!
*How are they going to balance the classes by removing some staples? Rogues have gotten such mediocre cards in the previous 3 expansions that removing some of their basic cards would be catastrophic for them. That would mean that for balancing they would have to release some blatant power creep cards for Rogues in the newer expansions but instead we might get a Shaman like situation where classes who got the nuts in expansions dominate everything. Blizzard has historically been very poor when it comes to balancing classes via expansions.
They were quite clear last time that they find innervate core to class identity and it wasn't changed because of that. I don't see it. Every druid deck might have innervate but they don't play anything alike, it's not a card that creates a evergreen archetype like force of nature did, it's just a good class card. Innervate to druids is quite important too lore wise.
I think the cards to get rid of for a meaningful change are these.
Azure Drake; it's just above curve for a 5 drop looking at everything else, the card is good enough that you don't care if you use the spelldamage at all. They will probably bump it to 6. After Lore nerf, AD was just silly in the state it was.
Rag; you just jam it in if you want a big guy, better than most of the class options even. RNG is dumb and game deciding too.
Swamp Ooze; yeah, 2 drop 3/2 destroy a weapon no matter what the weapon is. Weapon hate tech this good just hurts weapon classes too much. Just because pirate warrior is stupid doesn't mean this should exist like it is. That needs changing too of course. Right now, try playing paladin, your best card early in the game is Truesilver, it's instantly oozed right now, you just lose. It's not fair. Maybe limit the cost of the weapon it destroys for example. Removing gorehowl and stuff with ooze is just stupid. Makes Harrison look silly honestly in fast games that we have now. I said before, I think cheap high attack weapons and weapon upgrade shouldn't be a thing either, ooze is just a bad solution and burns innocent and guilty together. Look at the secret hate cards, they are no where as good and playable. 2 mana 3/2 isn't really going to hurt you for playing it. You know it's dumb when aggro decks tech in ooze...
Kor'kron Elite; cheap high attack charge doesn't belong in this game.
Ice Block; "take an extra turn after this one".
Conceal; It's just dumb and non interactive.
I like to add gadgetzan auctioneer, but they way iksar was commenting on their rogue's design around msg launch, they seem to like it and adding coins and such. I don't think it will go. Actually I would throw in Brawl because I just hate it lol.
I think the cards to get rid of for a meaningful change are these.
Azure Drake; it's just above curve for a 5 drop looking at everything else, the card is good enough that you don't care if you use the spelldamage at all. They will probably bump it to 6. After Lore nerf, AD was just silly in the state it was.
Rag; you just jam it in if you want a big guy, better than most of the class options even. RNG is dumb and game deciding too.
Swamp Ooze; yeah, 2 drop 3/2 destroy a weapon no matter what the weapon is. Weapon hate tech this good just hurts weapon classes too much. Just because pirate warrior is stupid doesn't mean this should exist like it is. That needs changing too of course. Right now, try playing paladin, your best card early in the game is Truesilver, it's instantly oozed right now, you just lose. It's not fair. Maybe limit the cost of the weapon it destroys for example. Removing gorehowl and stuff with ooze is just stupid. Makes Harrison look silly honestly in fast games that we have now. I said before, I think cheap high attack weapons and weapon upgrade shouldn't be a thing either, ooze is just a bad solution and burns innocent and guilty together. Look at the secret hate cards, they are no where as good and playable. 2 mana 3/2 isn't really going to hurt you for playing it. You know it's dumb when aggro decks tech in ooze...
Kor'kron Elite; cheap high attack charge doesn't belong in this game.
Ice Block; "take an extra turn after this one".
Conceal; It's just dumb and non interactive.
I like to add gadgetzan auctioneer, but they way iksar was commenting on their rogue's design around msg launch, they seem to like it and adding coins and such. I don't think it will go. Actually I would throw in Brawl because I just hate it lol.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Eh getting those replaced was a prerequisite.
They aren't engraved so much as they make it.
They get new basics just like everyone else. Make them earnable in PVE or something.
We just gotta trust them to know the better picture. Like we do already freeing up classic might give them more leeway actually.
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Reno Mage is the bane of my existence.
I could swear that every time that I play them, I have lethal on the board then they'll play ice block and freeze all minions and delay and delay turn after turn and that will give them enough time to find Reno. I know that that's the point of the deck, but I've never once been able to beat them before they get every single card they need to keep me from winning.
I could swear that every time that I play them, I have lethal on the board then they'll play ice block and freeze all minions and delay and delay turn after turn and that will give them enough time to find Reno. I know that that's the point of the deck, but I've never once been able to beat them before they get every single card they need to keep me from winning.
CelticKnight
Member
Dropped Kazakus on curve in my Reno Mage deck but didn't get a potion. I know I had no duplicates (played decklist for few days now) and all I had played before him was an Arcane Blast. Is he known to bug out occasionaly?
BigJonsson
Member
Did you steal any cards or add any extra spells to your hand/deck?
Edit - Oh, all you played is a blast, interesting
Happened to me alot pre msg where reno didnt trigger.
beneath the grounds?
They should rotate out any card with a non conditional Charge text on it from Classic/Basic like Wolfrider. Keep Charge on Leeroy that's it. That's basically what they have been doing anyway.
On the topic of Ooze: If this card gets rotated then they probably have to nuke both Patches and Pirate Warrior as well. Because otherwise it would be stupid.
On the topic of Ooze: If this card gets rotated then they probably have to nuke both Patches and Pirate Warrior as well. Because otherwise it would be stupid.
Pretty much, ooz is the only counter to early weapons with upgrades right now so unless PPP warrior early game damage get nerfed, i cant see ooze getting touched.
There was a reddit post about it the other day, but if you are bored and want 3 free classic packs you can download an Android emulator that allows you to switch device id and switch it to a Galaxy S6, download Hearthstone, log into your account and you instantly get the packs and a card back.
Takes some time for just the three packs but if you are bored and the weather is bad outside eh why not.
Takes some time for just the three packs but if you are bored and the weather is bad outside eh why not.
Rotation to Wild is the best option because at least people would have the chance to play their OG OP cards. Secret Paladin has finally been power creeped due to new cards being introduced. People in Wild don't even care about Azure Drake or Thalnos.
Like it's obvious they don't plan to ever balance Wild anyway so just let the Wild folks have all the cards. I don't want to play Wild with a gimped War Axe or Innervate.
Like it's obvious they don't plan to ever balance Wild anyway so just let the Wild folks have all the cards. I don't want to play Wild with a gimped War Axe or Innervate.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I still don't agree with Secret Paladin at tier 2, they just had a shitty list. I don't even have any weapon hate and my winrate against warrior and shaman isn't bad.
Alright it's not tier 2 but it's not tier 0 clearly uncontested best deck in Wild anymore. It doesn't have a stranglehold on the meta like it used to. People aren't forced to run jank like Secret Eaters anymore.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
This only works for certain cards.
Like yes, as a Wild player I welcome Azure Drak, Auctioneer, Thalnos unchanged with open arms.
But I don't want a pre nerf Warsong Commander. Or a pre nerf Leeroy. Or a pre nerf Auctioneer. I don't want a pre nerf Yogg. Or a pre nerf totem summoning guy.
If cards are problematic because they are just poorly designed, then you need to change them not rotate them to Wild.
If they are just overused because they are solid cards, then sure, rotate to wild.
platypotamus
Member
Did your opponent cast Beneath The Grounds?
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