just right off the bat since I still haven't finished watching it.. it really bothers me when these streamers are just like maniacs clicking everywhere or jut hitting tables or just showing how bad they are at controlling anxiety
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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just right off the bat since I still haven't finished watching it.. it really bothers me when these streamers are just like maniacs clicking everywhere or jut hitting tables or just showing how bad they are at controlling anxiety
The point is basically that it's a lot worse then that. Let's say you're a Paladin and you hero power into Madam Goya. That's 8 mana, not 6. So if you pull a 6-drop, you're not getting a 4/3 for free. You're getting a 4/3 for... 2 mana. But then you also have to consider that now you're going to draw a 1 mana 1/1 at some point during the game, which is pretty bad.
If you use a minion from your hand, it becomes really clunky. Let's say you play a 2-drop and Madam Goya that instead. You pretty much HAVE TO pull something really expensive, like a 7 drop or higher, minus any value from a possible battlecry of the minion you pull. But because you run small minions, you can't guarantee that you get something big.
Essentially the effect is not as great as a 6 mana 4/3 might suggest it is. It's really clunky.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're meant to return a minion you've already gotten value off of. It's not as simple as calculating the stats or the hero power cost as you're suggesting. With shadowcaster I can copy a battlecry minion, get full value off the battlecry which is likely worth much more than 1 mana, then use goya to return it to my deck to get value off it (again later) and transform the 1/1 into something more powerful.
The example wasn't specific because this type of deck is meant to gain value off of more than just pure stats per mana. Perhaps you play a fire elemental, kill a minion with the battlecry. Then run the 6/5 into a 4/6 and then return the 6/1. You're not paying 6 mana from fire elemental, not even close.
In these kinds of situations, one of the Brewmasters (Youthful or Ancient) would probably be better, because you would gain a card in your hand and the minion the effect is attached to is cheaper and more stat efficient. With Madam Goya you are sort of relying on an RNG roll to make the difference, and it has to roll pretty high.
I think there are fringe situations where Madam Goya is good and that makes the card interesting. But that doesn't mean that my overall impression of her power level is positive. She seems very ambitious and clunky to work with.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The issue with Inkmaster is that it's competing with your most powerful spells. What do you replace it for?
That's a lot of what ifs and conditional stuff in there. Even that Fire Elemental example... what if that Fire Elemental dies? You can't use Fire Elemental and Goya in the same turn (unless there's an Emperor tick) so you are relying on the opponent not killing it off.
And the card has anti synergy with itself. So you want to include a bunch of powerful Battlecries in the deck that you can bounce back with Goya/Shadowcaster? That means that the pulls from Goya are going to be weaker when you pull a Battlecry minion out.
FormallyFamicom
Member
People who endlessly brush across the cards drive me insane.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The examples are illustrative of the point I was making there, which was if you're calculating value you don't just do the math on the stats. It's difficult to talk about a trick card because you don't know what deck it'll be ran in. I could see a couple possible decks it could be used in, I don't think it's as bad as it appears on it's face and that if it had higher stats we'd be talking about how broken it is and how RNG sucks.
Several options there. The big issue with Reno mage is replacing Elise (at some point). N'Zoth would require too much tinkering with all the new cards on top.
You can make terrible cards better by increasing the stats, sure. But we're not evaluating the card on the stats it doesn't have. We're evaluating the strength of its battlecry effect when attached to a 6 mana 4/3. The card would have been a lot stronger if it was attached to a 4 mana 4/3, but that's not the card we're evaluating. You can't look at its battlecry in a vacuum. I don't dismiss cards just because they fail the vanilla test. I also look at the value of any additional effects and try to determine if that effect is worth the loss in stats. And in this case, I don't think it does. The card is too expensive and clunky imo.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I feel like I am talking in circles and you're both not actually listening to what I am trying to say. My original post was stating that there is some value to be gained out of it if you pull a big enough minion. My second post was trying to point that out. My third post was explaining that point in further detail that the card's valuation is too situation specific and I was trying to use an ideal situation to simply illustrate why value is not as simple as doing the math behind the stats.
And now... in my last post I had a small aside about how the card would be received very different if the stats were higher, not the cost but the stats. A 6/6 that exchanges a minion could be very "broken" because sometimes it also brings out a ragnaros or tirion and we'd be complaining about powerful RNG cards deciding games again. I wasn't trying to say we should evaluate it on that scale, not even close.
I think the statline simply means to be worth playing you need more out of it's battlecry. That is very specific to the deck you're playing. And if you want to look at value heavily, you have to consider a lot of factors that I have alluded to. And I also pointed out that sometimes you may want to actually return a card to your deck, such as a card that activates upon drawing it or one that can be summoned onto the board like patches.
edit:
Example- When you draw this card, add a copy of it to your hand.
I think the deck that can actually get enough value out of her battlecry for her inclusion to be worth it is the kind of deck that is completely built around her. And is also pretty terrible. It would have to be extremely top-heavy in an almost Astral Communion sort of way, but she's bad in Astral Communion. So I have trouble theorycrafting a deck where you include her and she's worth it and the deck is even halfway decent.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I dunno what deck I would play goya in and perhaps they don't add cards to support the deck til a later date. Maybe there is something strong in the set that hasn't been released yet.
Holy Wrath Paladin stills runs minions like Wild Pyromancer and Ivory Knight, right? Pulling one of those is kind of a disaster.
Also Doomsayer but I feel that this variant would cut the smaller minions.
You really going to cut 6 really powerful minions in order to run 1 other minion?
Smooth Operator
Member
Edit : Quest done, thanks !
With all these new Reno cards, I'm guessing they might put Reno in classic. It's not really healthy to keep that imo but people like him and Blizzard seemingly designs based on reddit reactions and trying to appease them.
It's odd to make these cards now if Reno is cycling out in like 3 months, the reason you consider playing such a deck is for the heal. No matter how good Kazakus is, it's not going to carry the weight alone.
It's odd to make these cards now if Reno is cycling out in like 3 months, the reason you consider playing such a deck is for the heal. No matter how good Kazakus is, it's not going to carry the weight alone.
Agree, grimestreet outfitter, smugglers run, small time recruits and meanstreet marshal are all cards for aggro/zoo decks, don't understand how you can fit a dopplegangster or grimestreet protector in that type of deck.
I think it is the exact opposite, I remember reading an interview where someone from the design team said they wanted to give Reno a last ride before leaving the rotation.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It seems like a lot of pros are happy with the set so far.
@G2Rdu
This is the only tweet I could find atm though.
@G2Rdu
This is the only tweet I could find atm though.
Can't remember the last time I played the same exact deck this many times in a row.
7/8...Blizzard please stop being stubborn and do something about this. I want to use other decks and stand a chance.
and tossing out 2 0 mana 5/5s and clearing your board in the same turn lol.
I think singleton decks could still work without Reno but I think they will shift from Warlock to Priest and Mage where the heal of Reno isn't as drastically important. If Warlock doesn't get a good heal card in this set or the first of next year, non-Zoo decks will be completely out of commission.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yup Paladin is gonna suck even more so if priest becomes viable.
The 3 drop and neutrals is all I bank my hope one, Getaway Kodo might also work out. The 1 drop Deathrattle is the first sticky minion Pally got in a long time and it can trade up with various cards while not being dead to a Hero Power.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Paladin vs priest is a match up very winnable for paladin. Hell, if dragon priest becomes popular I might just try to hit legend with control paladin. It'll take forever... since it's control, but I've done it before.
Have fun getting your Anyfins or Tirions discovered by the new Dragon.
Adding cards into classic opens a hyuge can of worms that I don't think Blizzard wants to deal with. Once they start adding cards into classic, Reddit, Bnet and other places will be nothing but people begging for their favorite cards to get promoted.
If they do add cards into classic, Reno should be one of the last they consider. There's absolutely no compelling reason that "Reno Decks" should be something that's permanently in the meta.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I await the day they use anyfin against me, so my first anyfin ends up hitting for lethal. And them getting tirions off steal mechanics is nothing new. Been there, overcame that.
Thinking about the Grimy Goons I came up with this Paladin deck. I went with a cycle oriented curve to explore some of the cards (Meanstreet Marshall, Runic Egg, Small-Time Recruits). Really weak against AOE and the only finisher is Dopplegangster with +1/+1 or +2/+2 after sitting on the hand for the whole game.
I think a list focused on divine shield with divine favor as the draw engine might be stronger though.
I think a list focused on divine shield with divine favor as the draw engine might be stronger though.
Peléo;224595456 said:Thinking about the Grimy Goons I came up with this Paladin deck. I went with a cycle oriented curve to explore some of the cards (Meanstreet Marshall, Runic Egg, Small-Time Recruits). Really weak against AOE and the only finisher is Dopplegangster with +1/+1 or +2/+2 after sitting on the hand for the whole game.
I think a list focused on divine shield with divine favor as the draw engine might be stronger though.
You 100% need divine favor in that list i think.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Did you see how much card draw he already has? I think divine favor definitely doesn't fit in that list.
I'd rather have divine favor than novice engineer when you can empty your hand on any given turn after turn 4.
And the entire idea of the deck requires you to have a full hand, buff it, vomit it. Refill hand, buff it, vomit it.
Divine favor feels like an mvp card to me.
This right here.
I think you'd want Divine Favor anyhow since all the drops are small and you can easily empty your hand. Even playing it for one or two cards mid and late game when you are losing steam is worth it if it will let you close out in a turn or two.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Novice engineer is another buff target that draws cards. It also combos with brann.
Even without novice, he has 6 card draw cards already. Card draw is going to make his divine favor pretty bad very often and your opponent can play around it. He can't even empty his hand for divine favor since he has all that card draw, and small time recruits draws 3 cards...
And since no one has posted it:
https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/344
Polymorph Potion:
3 mana Mage Secret
After your opponent plays a minon, transform it into a 1/1 sheep.
Seems pretty interesting especially against control. Ragnaros? Baaaahh. Sylvannas? Baaaaahh. Not sure it has much home elsewhere though. You gotta hit a big drop to get tempo or value out of this since they still get the 1/1 body it might not help much against zoo and aggro.
https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/344
Polymorph Potion:
3 mana Mage Secret
After your opponent plays a minon, transform it into a 1/1 sheep.
Seems pretty interesting especially against control. Ragnaros? Baaaahh. Sylvannas? Baaaaahh. Not sure it has much home elsewhere though. You gotta hit a big drop to get tempo or value out of this since they still get the 1/1 body it might not help much against zoo and aggro.
Yeah, similar to mirror entity.
It's funny his article doesn't know that 1 mana kirin tor mage exists. Doesn't really change much though.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Yup, Kabal Chemist is going to see plenty of play.
One of the easiest things to play around though. Not a lot of mystery to what secret you got from the chemist.
If you can get that Secret off of that 4 mana Potion draw card then it's going to be easy to play around. Warlock suddenly gets a Mage secret from that card... gee I wonder what it is.
Also does the Battlecry trigger before the Secret activates? Like if someone plays Reno Jackson is the Battlecry negated by that secret?
It overlaps with Mirror Entity and you play around both the same way so it's honestly not that good.
Also does the Battlecry trigger before the Secret activates? Like if someone plays Reno Jackson is the Battlecry negated by that secret?
It overlaps with Mirror Entity and you play around both the same way so it's honestly not that good.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Even if your opponent knows what it is they still have to play something into it so I still think it's a solid pull from Chemist. Even more so as the game heads toward the later turns.
I'd assume so, I think tests have shown Battle Cries resolve before secrets effects activate.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It's essentially hex that your opponent triggers. It can also be cheated out for free which mileage varies. It also makes it harder to judge what secret it is, just existing. I think it's good.
Also, you can probably get this off the chemist guy that gives random potions. Kinda obvious when priest plays a mage secret after playing that thing, but still potentially pretty good.
Also, you can probably get this off the chemist guy that gives random potions. Kinda obvious when priest plays a mage secret after playing that thing, but still potentially pretty good.
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