Plenty people would stop dealing face damage to handlock precisely to avoid that situation, back in the day, that is.
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Plenty people would stop dealing face damage to handlock precisely to avoid that situation, back in the day, that is.
Doomsayer is stupidly good in reno decks. Not playing it is handicapping yourself.
Super greedy list and fitting medivh in there would make it even greedier.
I would ditch pyroblast at the very least.
And mountain giant would be way better than arcane giant. But i wouldn't use either.
But it was fun as hell pulling it off!
Don't forget:
0 Molten Giant 2x, Shadowflame one, Healbot for 8.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That was not really a viable strategy unless you got considerable burst
As fun as my opponents having to attack into my MC board.
It's not like there is anything you can do to prevent an arcane giant or two form Malfurion's hand. Anyway, I did say "most fun giant" not "most fun card" to play.
xZoneHunter
Member
I don't know, i played doomsayer for a long time but i can never get good value out of it.
What would you change? I changed Arcane giant for medivh. Not sure what to swap out pyroblast for, i really like that card.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
true but Arcane Giant has to be reduced in cost deliberately and with deckbuilding concessions, while Mountain Giant just got cheaper against minion based decks naturally. Arcane Giants are too fair for this meta anyway.
I Can't believe these sentiment actually spreading smh
Only STB not ensure these pirate alwaya guarantee they win the board early and keep snowball does face damage far more than only STB does, its why Hunter unplayable or archetype like zoo that not had comeback mechanic
Nerfing only STB not gonna made classes or archetype that struggle against Pirate playable, so what the purpose of the nerf then?
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
All it takes is putting it on any board with the opponent having 6 or less attack on board, and you're guarenteed 1 for 1 card value plus either a lot of health gain or tempo gain.
charlequin
Banned
Broad internet consensus today: Ben Brode is an idiot because he can't remember his Arcane Golem no longer has haste
Broad internet consensus a month ago: I never remember to attack with my Patches which has Charge written right on it
(also he has a four-month-old so even speaking in complete sentences is an accomplishment for him right now)
They have like five long-term MTG designers on staff, there's literally nobody on the Earth better qualified here.
It's not flip-flopping, it's doing things one way and finding out from experience what the problems with that way are. He's correct that these nerfs that fundamentally change what the card does are lame and just changing numbers is a lot cleaner.
This was really bizarre. I was playing against a jade rogue and they played a second Aya Blackpaw by about round 9.
I specifically killed the first Aya Blackpaw several rounds earlier. What card could a Rogue have used to duplicate it? I'm pretty sure they didn't use Lotus Agents to discover, I'm pretty sure no minion effects did it, I'm pretty sure there were zero other legendary minions played on either side, and I didn't notice any other duplicating cards.
They also had two different duplicate cards in their first 11 cards, plus about 7 jade cards in their first 15, which was pretty lucky to begin with.
*edit* It looks like Thistle Tea and Gang Up are the only possibilities. I have zero memory of it but that must have happened.
I specifically killed the first Aya Blackpaw several rounds earlier. What card could a Rogue have used to duplicate it? I'm pretty sure they didn't use Lotus Agents to discover, I'm pretty sure no minion effects did it, I'm pretty sure there were zero other legendary minions played on either side, and I didn't notice any other duplicating cards.
They also had two different duplicate cards in their first 11 cards, plus about 7 jade cards in their first 15, which was pretty lucky to begin with.
*edit* It looks like Thistle Tea and Gang Up are the only possibilities. I have zero memory of it but that must have happened.
Are you still playing Druid? If so, they can burgle an aya from you, because it counts as a class card
I think they played 2 swashburglers so that would have been it. So, really bad luck.
Speaking of bad luck, the next game I got a mage who pulled a legendary minion with a firelands portal and THEN pulled a legendary minion with the deathrattle of a legendary minion that summoned another random minion of the same cost. Maybe it favors legendaries? Otherwise that's pretty slim odds.
*edit* They also have Brann and Kazakus in a rank 19 deck, ugh.
*edit* And ice block, and 1-HP Reno Jackson. And they took FOREVER to make their moves. It's the worst of all worlds!
That's exactly what flip flop is. They were called out on it a while back with their whole "soul of the card" non sense and now they have finally "learned from their ways".... one and a half year afterwards.
A broken clock is right twice a day. Yeah Brode is right in that changing numbers is cleaner but why did it take them almost two years to figure that out? They have been balancing the game in alpha and beta for a while, this wasn't new territory for them. And if he's right now... then they were WRONG before when they changed some of the cards. And since they have been wrong before (many times I would say) then they can be wrong again in the future.
A lot of these things people warned them about in the past. I can't tell you how many times someone like Kripp has made a "broken 1 drop" video until Blizzard has finally acknowledged that yes indeed, snowballing 1 drops are bad for the game. You would think they would have learned it with Undertaker back in Naxx but I guess not.
It's stuff like this is what breeds mistrust among the player base for the developers. I wouldn't be as harsh if they messed up a few times, admitted they were wrong and did something about it... but this is like the 20th HS mess up in the past 2 years alone. Questions start piling up at that point.
charlequin
Banned
"Flip-flop" is mostly a vacuous criticism invented by people who care less about underlying facts and more just about winning. The rest of this post basically lines up here: you're mad (about stuff that is ridiculously minor across the board) and so when you see an interview with a designer saying something reasonable and talking about how they've learned from experience, you need to find a way that your response can still be to talk shit. Blizzard already made WoW and so they learned long before Hearthstone was even created that this form of criticism isn't worth listening to.
I highly disagree. As someone who plays a wide array of card games, both CCG's, LCG's let me tell that there are a ton of games today that are vastly more balanced and better designet than MTG.
Let me name a few: Star Wars LCG, Ashes, Android Netrunner (the lcg), Codex just to name a few.
You simply dismissing valid critique as "you mad bro" says it all really.
Karsticles
Member
Dahbomb is one of the more calm people on this board, but he's very blunt with his facts.
charlequin
Banned
I mean it's kind of hard to tell! You talk a lot about how Ben Brode is a "broken clock" and how they never listen to players and how their terrible choices are breeding rampant mistrust, but the actual underlying point is that... what, Pirates and Shamans are a little too good in the current meta? You're responding to an interview with a designer who's being pretty open and communicative -- more than anyone in design on WoW ever was, for example -- with vitriol and twisting statements about learning from their past mistakes into complaints about long-dead balance issues of the past. This is not a coherent critique.
I'd consider Netrunner (another Richard Garfield design originally) here as a reasonable possibility, but Codex? Really?
Regardless, if we're talking about hiring designers, none of these is remotely comparable. All the LCGs are designed and developed by a single person, and none is played competitively on a scope anything like Magic, much less Hearthstone which is yet that much bigger again. If the specific point at issue is that minor balance choices are resulting in imbalances in the competitive metagame, there's no gig you can get in a game remotely like Hearthstone that'll build that specific skill (and the related skill of working as part of a large team to balance a game that has to be fun in multiple different formats) as effectively as Magic R&D.
Netrunner has quiet a big tournament scene. The lcg is very much a refined design.
All the FFG card games have quiet a few designers. Yes there is one or two lead designers but far more than that on the actual team.
Also the popularity of Hearthstone dosnt mean Its a better designed game.
By that logic candy land is a better game than Twilight Struggle.
If you want a full critique then I can deliver that tomorrow at a better time because I am about to go to sleep. So it's clear I will bullet point my position on the matter and where I stand:
* I do not think that Blizzard does not listen to the fanbase or the pros... they do. I never said anything to the contrary. My point was more towards them not responding in time to an obvious problem. I used Undertaker as an EXAMPLE that is relevant today because they talked about snowballing 1 drops and learning from mistakes. The fact that we have issues with snowballing 1 drops after the existence of Undertaker (and is only now being formally acknowledged) is the type of issues I have problem with.
*The talk about learning from past mistakes is a song and dance we have heard before. I think it's great that Blizzard is trying to communicate and guess what... the majority of people feel that as well. No one is saying "oh man I better not see another live stream video by Brode again!" The problem is that despite their efforts they have NOT progressed that well or learned from their mistakes for two years now. We have had aggressive/curve decks FOREVER... it's irrelevant that Shaman or Warrior or whatever flavor of the month Pirate deck is on top... we are simply playing the same types of decks just with different art. One meta Hunter is on top, another meta Zoo, Secret Paladin, any good Shaman deck, Tempo Mage, Dragon Warrior, Mech Mage, Aggro Druid, Aggro Paladin... they are all very similar decks that are a representation of the design issues with Hearthstone.
*I have dozens of issues with the game but I am refraining from bringing them up because I am hoping some of them get addressed in the post rotation in 2017. Class rebalance is a major talking point. Ladder system, Arena system, Standard/Wild formats and more importantly the type of design philosophies they carry over from what they have learned from past mistakes. So this is actually me being very reserved with the critiques because I am waiting for Blizzard to reveal their cards first. It would be pointless for me to talk about Hunters right now when post rotation they might have a different focus (boy would that be the day...).
*I have a lot of issues but I do think they have done some good recently. I will make a list:
*Opened up communication like they said they would.
*Actually addressing and changing up Arena (even though it's not the type of changes I would prefer, I do agree that some change is better than no change).
*The most recent list of balance changes was good. No card was nuked from orbit like Warsong Commander or Blade Flurry.
*MSG was a great expansion IMO in terms of reducing RNG and putting more emphasis on late game tempo swings. It's too bad MSG is getting marred by the Pirates meta which is why the whole Patches/STB is all the more frustrating... we could have had a great meta where you could play Midrange decks and Combo decks to beat the Reno decks like it should be instead we have Pirates decks that beat most everything.
*New Quests were great because a lot of them give you something even if you don't win. Gold needs to be easier to acquire for newer players.
Ultimately the main frustration with the game is that it has not really attained the highs of what it was in Classic and more importantly what it could have been. You look at the Classic set and you think "man this core set is pretty solid, I wonder what they can pull off next with this digital format." For the majority of the last year, Blizzard utilized the digital format to inject as much RNG in the game as possible to the detriment of the game and something that they had to scale back on. Sure every expansion they have a few cool ideas in the mix but nothing gave quite the range and more importantly the class identity that was present in Classic that hooked us all in.
I look at the Rogue class in Classic and it had a defined class identity. Combos for tempo with stealth flavor thrown in. Now I look at the class with stuff they have gotten in the past two years and I can't think of the core identity. Is Rogue trying to play for value late game with Gang Up, Beneath the Ground and Anuburak? Am I supposed to make a deck that specializes in stealing the other classes cards? Pirate Rogue? Deathrattle Rogue? Jade Rogue? It would be cool to have a class that can play most of these decks but Rogue does not have the basic toolkit to support these decks so all these deck types end up falling flat and keep robbing Rogue of its identity.
Lagspike_exe
Member
Yeah, but this was getaway aggros + redemption. Basically, you go with Caine/Sylvanna/Thirion/Wickerflame + these secrets. So you cycle a bunch of deathrattles and Wickerflame and then finish with NZoth. II's so much fun to play but W/L is poor in current meta.
This is the original list:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/720100-getaway-aggros
I added Harisson, Lay on Hands and Forbidden healing, but it's still not working great. Paladin is just too weak right now, no matter how much dust the deck costs.
This why you never play Wrathguard kids.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/QAhWKWBDJDDEDJaGSzRCQK#turn=15b
https://hsreplay.net/replay/QAhWKWBDJDDEDJaGSzRCQK#turn=15b
Hearth-GAF, I have some noob questions. Would anyone mind indulging me?
1. Are there any ways to somewhat efficiently obtain new cards? I'm going through all the Adventures, so I'll have all of those. Do you get enough gold/packs as rewards that you can build competitive decks or will I need to buy some?
2. How do you track your obtained cards to determine what kind of decks you can build? I'm finding the 'My Collection' UI very hard to see what all I have. Any online or installable tools to help with this? It's a little overwhelming.
3. Which cards are 'Standard' vs 'Wild'? I don't want to buy packs that aren't Standard for now, I think. Nothing in the game really clarifies that.
4. Any other overall tips for a noob (I played a lot before any adventures and major changes to the game)
1. Are there any ways to somewhat efficiently obtain new cards? I'm going through all the Adventures, so I'll have all of those. Do you get enough gold/packs as rewards that you can build competitive decks or will I need to buy some?
2. How do you track your obtained cards to determine what kind of decks you can build? I'm finding the 'My Collection' UI very hard to see what all I have. Any online or installable tools to help with this? It's a little overwhelming.
3. Which cards are 'Standard' vs 'Wild'? I don't want to buy packs that aren't Standard for now, I think. Nothing in the game really clarifies that.
4. Any other overall tips for a noob (I played a lot before any adventures and major changes to the game)
I think this may be the first time I've ever seen someone express a longing for Classic.
Someone should do a Reddit poll on which era of Hearthstone people liked best. I'd be rather interested to see that.
Edit:
Apparently one exists, but it doesn't include Classic: https://docs.google.com/a/stolaf.ed...XRqhLEnOy6V6rTWhuaqYauGnDoLXDSA/viewanalytics
I don't think anyone will be surprised to learn that League of Explorers is by far the favorite.
That said, the poll is slightly different in that it asks what people's favorite expansion was, which could be interpreted differently than the meta that arose.
Someone should do a Reddit poll on which era of Hearthstone people liked best. I'd be rather interested to see that.
Edit:
Apparently one exists, but it doesn't include Classic: https://docs.google.com/a/stolaf.ed...XRqhLEnOy6V6rTWhuaqYauGnDoLXDSA/viewanalytics
I don't think anyone will be surprised to learn that League of Explorers is by far the favorite.
That said, the poll is slightly different in that it asks what people's favorite expansion was, which could be interpreted differently than the meta that arose.
You are drinking the FFG juice if you think the games you listed are anywhere close to MTG. All their designs suffer from tons of edge cases and poor rule sets that lead to mountains of interaction questions and an overall clunky experience. The only game you listed that is even worth a second look is Netrunner due to it's asymmetrical play and strong unique theme but even it can't stand up over time design wise to MTG.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
MTG is currently going through a rough time with their marquee format but MTG does always have a bunch of otherwise popular formats
Yeah if we are picking favorite expansions: LoE, Old Gods, and MSG are the easy choices.
For favorite metas... I am less certain. I don't recall if the meta after LoE was that great. Reno decks didn't start doing great for a bit yet. I'd guess maybe the Blackrock Mountain meta? It's after the undertaker nerf went through, GvG was out and I wasn't sick of those cards yet (and I owned Dr. Boom). If I forgot about something awful during then, I could probably say the Old Gods meta was pretty good despite Shaman being OP AF, there were lots of really fun decks in there that weren't Shaman.
For favorite metas... I am less certain. I don't recall if the meta after LoE was that great. Reno decks didn't start doing great for a bit yet. I'd guess maybe the Blackrock Mountain meta? It's after the undertaker nerf went through, GvG was out and I wasn't sick of those cards yet (and I owned Dr. Boom). If I forgot about something awful during then, I could probably say the Old Gods meta was pretty good despite Shaman being OP AF, there were lots of really fun decks in there that weren't Shaman.
Glass Shark
Banned
I'm fairly new as well, but I'll try to help.
1. You are going to need to buy packs in order to be competitive. Full stop. Adventures will give you some good staples, but you really need to fill out your collection. General rule of thumb is that the most efficient way to earn packs and dust for crafting is to get good at Arena. If you can 3 wins in an Arena run, on average you will break even. If you can get more than that, you'll earn rewards more efficiently than just buying packs directly. (I don't like Arena and I have more money than sense, so I just buy packs.)
2. Hearthpwn is an awesome website for tracking your collection and finding decks. They have a software tool called Innkeeper that will automatically sync your collection and you can search for decks based only on what you can build with the cards you have. You can also use this spreadsheet tool made by a Redditor called PACT to sync your Hearthpwn collection and it will tell you the most efficient method of buying packs based on your collection depending on whether you're looking for new cards or dust. https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/5fr0pd/releasing_pact_v23_msog_and_adventures_support/
3. Cards from the Classic set (both Basic - the cards you get for free - and Expert - the cards you open in packs) are in Standard, as well as cards from the most recent purchasable packs and Adventures. Goblins vs. Gnomes and Naxxramas have rotated out of Standard. The Grand Tournament and Blackrock Mountain will be the next things to rotate out of Standard when new sets and Adventures come out. Probably sometime this summer. Wild is literally any card, old or new.
4. Learn what all the different archetypes are but don't feel forced into playing a particular way because it's "meta." There is a lot more viable out there than most people think. The enthusiast Hearthstone community, particularly reddit, can work itself into a fervor over things. Try not to get caught up in that. Play what you enjoy and have fun.
Magic has a huge problem with its resource system which was fixed in several other games. Netrunner and Star Wars LCG do it the best and least random way, without it simply beeing a fixed curve like i HS.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't consider that a problem. Yeah you're gonna lose a couple games to variance but both matches being Bo3 and the ability to use 4 of each card drastically reduce variance otherwise.
Just comparing to Hearthstone for instance you can easily play fewer unique cards than in hearthstone.
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
1. Adventures are a good start. You don't technically need to buy packs with real money, as long as you do your daily quests and have patience. It can be a lot easier to fill out your collection, but that's how people end up spending hundreds of dollars on a "free" game.
2. I only play on iOS, so I'm not too sure. I believe there are a number of add ons that can help you out, but I'll let someone else
3. They introduced rotations last year to try to keep the meta fresh. Cards in standard are the expansions and adventures from the last two years, plus cards from the basic and standard sets. Wild is all of those, plus older cards. They only offer packs in the store from cards that are currently in standard, so don't worry about that. The next batch of cards rotating to Wild will happen when the next adventure/expansion is coming out, but no one's 100% sure when that will be. Sometime between March and June, probably.
4. My biggest tip is that if you've lost a bunch of games in a row, and you've started yelling at the game, it's probably a good time to switch to something else. That took me a while to learn.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Was 4-1 on an Arena run but ended up 4-3.
Is it me or are people more aggressive in Arena? I did manage to claw my way back against a Warrior with 28 HP and 10 Armour while I was at 6 HP (copying his hero power helped, plus topdecking Taunts), but it didn't work the next two games.
Is it me or are people more aggressive in Arena? I did manage to claw my way back against a Warrior with 28 HP and 10 Armour while I was at 6 HP (copying his hero power helped, plus topdecking Taunts), but it didn't work the next two games.
Well, the meta in constructed is to finish the game before turn 6 (or 4), so Arena isn't more aggressive. It's just there are few comeback mechanisms in Arena, so you feel getting rushed down.
Glass Shark
Banned
One more thing... you can reroll one daily quest per day. If you get a 40 gold quest, always reroll. There's a chance you'll get a daily quest worth more gold but you'll never get one with less.
Also, check out Hearthpwn or a similar site for a list of all the hidden quests. Knock out as many as you can for free gold and packs. For example, you can earn free packs for playing on an iPad, iPhone, Android phone, and Android tablet. I was able to get free packs by installing Hearthstone in an Android emulator on my PC without having to actually use a real device. You can get free stuff for just using spectate mode in game to watch a friend win. Simple stuff.
Basically, search out every way you can to squeeze every ounce of efficiency you can from the grind. It adds up.
Wow, these are great responses. Thanks so much for taking the time. I feel a lot better now and can't wait to get those apps installed to start analyzing my cards.
Thanks again!
Different strokes ofc. For me the less random the better. For others tackling a lot of random is fun.
Have you already bought the $5 welcome pack? That gives a great value for a bunch of packs.
I haven't spent any money after that and am slowly building a collection by doing all the hidden quests and daily quests. After you do several quests, you'll start occasionally getting more valuable quests that give you 80-100 coins, or a pack directly.
charlequin
Banned
This whole post was interesting and made your critiques a lot clearer to me, but this is the part I particularly wanted to talk about. Do you think this is the biggest design issue at the moment -- not Rogue specifically, but classes having unclear roles? From a quick glance I feel like Rogue is easily the least coherent class, but who else are you thinking of here?
The WotC party line is that the land-based mana system is actually one of the main reasons Magic was successful and I'm strongly inclined to agree. If you look at all the issues with RNG in Hearthstone, the main reason these even exist is to help bring back some of the variance that's eliminated by stripping the mana system. Magic's resource system is also the most elegant one to give people flexibility on how many factions they want to play with at a time; you pay a direct and comprehensible penalty for building a five-color deck that counteracts the added flexibility.
I... didn't say it did? My point was that Magic R&D is the closest environment and skillset to what balance designers would do in Hearthstone (both because of the scale of both games, and because Hearthstone consciously aped Magic's development model.)
BananasWithGuns
Member
So post rotation and/or pirate nerf, Hunter immediately becomes relevant again right?
Or more than relevant, potentially insane.
Or more than relevant, potentially insane.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Neither of those statements is quantifiable in any way. You want a certain amount of variance for games to actually be interesting but you also don't want too much for games to still feel rewarding instead of completely random.Different strokes ofc. For me the less random the better. For others tackling a lot of random is fun.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Rogue looks incoherent because they want rogue to have a trick side. Gang up has been great for mill rogue.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Can't forget oil rogue...
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