Best was after LOE. Reno and Elise made so many new playstyles possible.
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Meta after LOE was among the worst in the game.
Trogg gave rise to Aggro Shaman, Secret Paladin was still the god and Zoolock plus Combo Druid rounded out the tier 1. Renolock wasn't getting anything done.
Sure you could play Fatigue Warrior with Elise but you had unfavorable match ups against Midrange Hunter (which ran Mad Scientist), Combo Druid and god curve Secret Paladin.
We also had stints of Aggro Druid in the meta because of Mounted Raptor, Fel Reaver, the combo package, Finley, Living Roots etc. And c course we had the occasional Mech Mage and Tempo Mage to cheese you out with Mana Wyrms, Scientists, Flame Waker and Unbalanced Esportal.
Only good thing about this meta was Freeze Mage and Oil Rogue being good but depending upon who you ask that's bad too. The Midrange Grim Patron Warrior deck was cool too, a proper anti meta deck.
Shaman has a lot of tribes asnd themes that work but they work because of blatantly over powered cards at the moment. The class at its core revolves around RNG that is unavoidable. Their hero power is random which causes swings and some of their AOE is random which is not something you want from your AOE spells as that creates massive variance.
Shaman's themes currently include Spell damage, Overload, Murlocs, Evolve, Totems and Jades. When Classic started they were focused on Windfury and Overload. Blizzard never really expanded much on the Windfury playstyle for Shaman but I can see why they didn't, it can lead to some insane burst.
The main issue with Shaman is two folds: Blizzard up until this point has balanced around Overload poorly. These cards are either too strong in aggressive decks or just plain bad (Lightning Fork). I think Overload is best used in card draw, heals and AOE clears but when used on statted minions or burst spells it has almost always been bad for the game.
The other issue is the class inherent RNG I talked about before with their hero power and AOE. Shaman can potentially pull off a 5 mana Flamestrike or a 5 mana Consecrate off of the same play. That sucks to play with and play against. Shaman was a BAD Class power level wise specifically because of this hero power and AOE spells but now they are the best because in order to compensate for these things Blizzard made Shaman cards that are above the power level. So you end up having games against Midrange Shaman where you get blown out because they roll Spell damage Totem into Spirit Claws and Lightning Storm. This was at its WORST in the Karazhan meta which some believe to be among the worst metas in HS especially pre nerfs.
Hunter has the opposite problem of Shamans and Rogues. Well they have a similar problem as Rogues in that their hero power kinda funnels them down this narrow path of playing either aggro or curve decks. Hunter's class identity is the most coherent and obvious out of all the classes... you play minions/beasts on curve supported by traps/weapons/spells then you face them down with hero power. This has how Hunter has played from the beginning of time with the exception of alpha/beta where they had some broken combos that should never have existed to begin with.
Hunter is so binary that trying to inject intersting ideas or concepts into the class has almost always failed in the past. They tried to make control/value Hunter a thing in the past by giving them very powerful control cards but Hunter players never thought twice about them because they weren't statted minions or couldn't hit face.
The basic Hunter toolkit lacks in a ton of things. Bad card draw options, bad AOE options and bad defensive/healing options. It would be fine if Hunter was deficient in one maybe two of these areas but they lack in all of them and that restricts the type of decks you can make with Hunter.
This is a similar issue with Rogue too where they have all these ideas but they can't be utilized well because of the hero power and the lack of core tool sets. It is no shock to me that Hunter is at the bottom, it was eventually going to happen though usually Hunter does manage to find a way because playing stuff on curve is always good in HS (except when decks exist that can do it better like with Pirates right now).
As to how these issues can be fixed... with Blizzard potentially rotating out cards even from Classic they really should consider doing something about those 2 hero powers. Shaman needs less RNG in the hero power plus their AOE spells and Hunter needs a more interesting hero power and some of their weaknesses covered up to open up new playstyle. If they don't want to do that then they have to be better at creating cards for these classes in the future. I think Jinryu Waterspeaker is a good card for Shaman. I think Powershot was a good card for Hunter but you need better card draw to play the long game and more ways to transform the hero power (with Finley and Steamweedle gone). Most importantly you need them to have late game win conditions other than just facing the opponent done with curve stuff. Some combo or value oriented play. Shaman's have it right now but they are about to lose a lot of it in post rotation (and the slow Shaman decks get out paced by the curve Shaman decks).
Trogg gave rise to Aggro Shaman, Secret Paladin was still the god and Zoolock plus Combo Druid rounded out the tier 1. Renolock wasn't getting anything done.
Sure you could play Fatigue Warrior with Elise but you had unfavorable match ups against Midrange Hunter (which ran Mad Scientist), Combo Druid and god curve Secret Paladin.
We also had stints of Aggro Druid in the meta because of Mounted Raptor, Fel Reaver, the combo package, Finley, Living Roots etc. And c course we had the occasional Mech Mage and Tempo Mage to cheese you out with Mana Wyrms, Scientists, Flame Waker and Unbalanced Esportal.
Only good thing about this meta was Freeze Mage and Oil Rogue being good but depending upon who you ask that's bad too. The Midrange Grim Patron Warrior deck was cool too, a proper anti meta deck.
I think Shaman and Hunter have huge design issues too that are core to the class.
Shaman has a lot of tribes asnd themes that work but they work because of blatantly over powered cards at the moment. The class at its core revolves around RNG that is unavoidable. Their hero power is random which causes swings and some of their AOE is random which is not something you want from your AOE spells as that creates massive variance.
Shaman's themes currently include Spell damage, Overload, Murlocs, Evolve, Totems and Jades. When Classic started they were focused on Windfury and Overload. Blizzard never really expanded much on the Windfury playstyle for Shaman but I can see why they didn't, it can lead to some insane burst.
The main issue with Shaman is two folds: Blizzard up until this point has balanced around Overload poorly. These cards are either too strong in aggressive decks or just plain bad (Lightning Fork). I think Overload is best used in card draw, heals and AOE clears but when used on statted minions or burst spells it has almost always been bad for the game.
The other issue is the class inherent RNG I talked about before with their hero power and AOE. Shaman can potentially pull off a 5 mana Flamestrike or a 5 mana Consecrate off of the same play. That sucks to play with and play against. Shaman was a BAD Class power level wise specifically because of this hero power and AOE spells but now they are the best because in order to compensate for these things Blizzard made Shaman cards that are above the power level. So you end up having games against Midrange Shaman where you get blown out because they roll Spell damage Totem into Spirit Claws and Lightning Storm. This was at its WORST in the Karazhan meta which some believe to be among the worst metas in HS especially pre nerfs.
Hunter has the opposite problem of Shamans and Rogues. Well they have a similar problem as Rogues in that their hero power kinda funnels them down this narrow path of playing either aggro or curve decks. Hunter's class identity is the most coherent and obvious out of all the classes... you play minions/beasts on curve supported by traps/weapons/spells then you face them down with hero power. This has how Hunter has played from the beginning of time with the exception of alpha/beta where they had some broken combos that should never have existed to begin with.
Hunter is so binary that trying to inject intersting ideas or concepts into the class has almost always failed in the past. They tried to make control/value Hunter a thing in the past by giving them very powerful control cards but Hunter players never thought twice about them because they weren't statted minions or couldn't hit face.
The basic Hunter toolkit lacks in a ton of things. Bad card draw options, bad AOE options and bad defensive/healing options. It would be fine if Hunter was deficient in one maybe two of these areas but they lack in all of them and that restricts the type of decks you can make with Hunter.
This is a similar issue with Rogue too where they have all these ideas but they can't be utilized well because of the hero power and the lack of core tool sets. It is no shock to me that Hunter is at the bottom, it was eventually going to happen though usually Hunter does manage to find a way because playing stuff on curve is always good in HS (except when decks exist that can do it better like with Pirates right now).
As to how these issues can be fixed... with Blizzard potentially rotating out cards even from Classic they really should consider doing something about those 2 hero powers. Shaman needs less RNG in the hero power plus their AOE spells and Hunter needs a more interesting hero power and some of their weaknesses covered up to open up new playstyle. If they don't want to do that then they have to be better at creating cards for these classes in the future. I think Jinryu Waterspeaker is a good card for Shaman. I think Powershot was a good card for Hunter but you need better card draw to play the long game and more ways to transform the hero power (with Finley and Steamweedle gone). Most importantly you need them to have late game win conditions other than just facing the opponent done with curve stuff. Some combo or value oriented play. Shaman's have it right now but they are about to lose a lot of it in post rotation (and the slow Shaman decks get out paced by the curve Shaman decks).
Every class was viable right after LOE, and every class had multiple archetypes being played. I don't ever remember more variety on the ladder. So much experimentation. It was a lot of fun. Eventually, secret Paladin and combo Druid became too popular, but that took a while.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
All I remember about LoE was everyone playing Reno in every deck, with any class. Fuck the meta right afterwards.
Other games changed their resource system away from MTG. That doesn't make one game inherently better than the others and that doesn't mean MTG has a huge problem. Streamlining and guaranteeing resources is great but it also limits design space.
That happened for a week tops.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
well that's when I stopped playing till WoTOG
I feel opposite. Simply drawing mana is not interesting to me. Economic resource management ala Netrunner gives me more option on how to play each turn.
TetraxShards
Member
Reno Monkey Madness Warrior was an incredible deck. So much fun was had.
Yeah, I have to agree here.
- RNG or combo based card draw mechanics,
- deathrattles that aren't as powerful anymore due to the plethora of aoe removal,
- Reno decks that negate all of your hero power damage,
- and the Grimy Goons mechanic which is anti-tempo in a tempo based game.
That said I think Hunter has a lot of potential. I can still keep a positive winrate while running Hunter right now so I don't think it is dead in the water, but it struggles against so much of the current meta.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
TIL that Betrayal works with Emperor Cobra.
Pretty sure this is actually strong point vs reno deck
Most AoE sucks against deck with 2 grandma, 2 rat pack and 2 highmane if that deck capable to exist
I mean its how hunter is auto win against control warrior deck that still better than current reno decks stritcly at removing things
Reno deck dont have 4 hard removal and 2 brawl
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Missed a pretty obvious lethal earlier, added the guy after to make fun of myself, and watched him win his next match for a quest pack.
Not a bad Hearthstone day.
Not a bad Hearthstone day.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Can you play Miracle Rogue with just one Preparation?
I have an ample amount of dust, but I don't really feel like crafting for a class I haven't had fun with in a long time, but I have two Rogue quests.
I have an ample amount of dust, but I don't really feel like crafting for a class I haven't had fun with in a long time, but I have two Rogue quests.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Miracle rogue could work with 1 prep, although you're running a weaker deck than with 2.
Agree 100 percent about the issues with Shaman. The core failing of the class is that a) 2-3 damage for for lit storm should never have been allowed (and other cards of that type) and that there is no easy way to balance overload and I don't think even Blizzard knows how to proceed with it from this point forward.
Shaman is in a tough spot balance wise. It's core mechanics encourage the kind of roll the dice RNG that people despise about the game. There isn't an easy way to change that without overhauling the class and it's hero power.
3 mana, 2-3 damage, 1-2 overload. Make the RNG fiesta complete. that slight Trogg nerf tho.
I did. Great value for $5. I already bought some packs, too, to start building my collection.
Built a decent C'Thun Mage deck and it has been pretty fun so far. Up to rank 20 so I'll at least get the card back.
Edit: Question about rank rewards. Do you get rewarded for the highest rank you hit or whatever your rank is when the season ends? Don't want to get punished for a losing streak at the end!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
So glad I crafted Jaraxxus, comboless Renolock is way more fun and much easier as well. Jaraxxus + Combo can have a tough time setting up a boardstate you can drop Jaraxxus in the first place.
I really uncomfortable playing without combo in other hand
It's actually not that difficult to fix Shaman.
Hero power: Hero power is now on a set rotation. Searing -> Healing -> Stonetusk -> Wrath of Air and it starts with Searing again. You will get the next totem on the rotation always even if there are multiple totems up (you will get the next totem on the rotation based on the last totem played unless it's already on the board in which case it goes to the next one on the list and so on). This makes the hero power good to play with and against at a higher level. No more turn 1 Spirit Claws into turn 2 Spell totem for high roll win. This allows players to make calculated spell damage or taunt plays.
*Lightning Storm: Change it to deal 3 damage all the time but to all minions on board. One of the things that makes aggro/midrange Shaman so strong is the access to asymmetrical clear that gives them advantage in same archetype match ups. Having a consistent 3 damage for essentially 4 mana is great but you kill your own board and totem too. It works like a smaller Elemental Destruction only with no RNG spread.
As far as overload as a whole is concerned, the fix is easy... in the future do not make over statted overload minions or efficient burn spells. Overload naturally favors an aggressive playstyle so don't make overload cards that you can just slot into aggro Shaman.
Good examples of overload cards: Ancestral Knowledge, Jinryu and Elemental Destruction (if it had no RNG spread). Ancestral Knowledge can also be used in Aggro decks but it's perfectly balanced in Aggro decks IMO.
Bad examples of overload cards: Totem Golem, Faceless Flamewreath, Crackle (double bad because of big RNG spread), Fireguard Destroyer (double bad because of RNG on attack), Lava Burst, current Lightning Storm.
Hero power: Hero power is now on a set rotation. Searing -> Healing -> Stonetusk -> Wrath of Air and it starts with Searing again. You will get the next totem on the rotation always even if there are multiple totems up (you will get the next totem on the rotation based on the last totem played unless it's already on the board in which case it goes to the next one on the list and so on). This makes the hero power good to play with and against at a higher level. No more turn 1 Spirit Claws into turn 2 Spell totem for high roll win. This allows players to make calculated spell damage or taunt plays.
*Lightning Storm: Change it to deal 3 damage all the time but to all minions on board. One of the things that makes aggro/midrange Shaman so strong is the access to asymmetrical clear that gives them advantage in same archetype match ups. Having a consistent 3 damage for essentially 4 mana is great but you kill your own board and totem too. It works like a smaller Elemental Destruction only with no RNG spread.
As far as overload as a whole is concerned, the fix is easy... in the future do not make over statted overload minions or efficient burn spells. Overload naturally favors an aggressive playstyle so don't make overload cards that you can just slot into aggro Shaman.
Good examples of overload cards: Ancestral Knowledge, Jinryu and Elemental Destruction (if it had no RNG spread). Ancestral Knowledge can also be used in Aggro decks but it's perfectly balanced in Aggro decks IMO.
Bad examples of overload cards: Totem Golem, Faceless Flamewreath, Crackle (double bad because of big RNG spread), Fireguard Destroyer (double bad because of RNG on attack), Lava Burst, current Lightning Storm.
Karsticles
Member
Honestly, as someone who likes playing Shaman, I'd rather have the RNG totem system we have now - putting it on a rotation just means I'm consistently unlikely to have access to the totem I want. For example, if I have 2 mana left over on a turn, I might pop a totem because it could give me a 1/1 on the board - why not? But if I know it's going to give me Healing Totem...sure, I'll still do it, but I know it's going to be sucky. That seems less satisfying to me and a slight downgrade.
I would need for the totems to get a buff to justify this change.
Aggro Shaman is already going to be heavily nerfed post rotation with Totem Golem and Tunnel Trogg out.
It's not about killing Aggro Shaman, it's about stabilizing the class as a whole. Aggro Shaman still has access to Maelstrom, Jade Claws, Jade Lightning, Jade Claws, Lightning Bolt, 477 plus the old school Squire plus Flame Totem combo and the old school Lava Burst Doom Hammer Rockbiter finish. Assuming most of these aren't rotated out... would not be shocked to see Doomhammer rotated to Wild.
Buffing totems in a non RNG setting is actually horrendous. Each of the totems are exactly what you would get for a hero power compared to other classes with the Wrath of Air totem being above the power level.
Healing Totem is good in quite a bit of situations, even game winning.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I was curious about your current build, I was awful with the one you reached high legend with.
don't like these changes at all. Especially the Hero Power changes.
I don't play much Renolock this month because chasing other golden heroes, seem like mistake because I don't think I reach legend this month.
this my build that I play here and there
http://i.imgur.com/EFmrQoE.png
You can replace Courier with Argus or Jaraxxus, I don't play courier because I thinks its good, its for fun
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Damn bodied by Fandral. Fandral into Nourish, Innervate, Feral Rage, Jade Idol, Innervate, Wrath.
thanks. Gonna try it later.
thanks. Gonna try it later.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Ugh, lost a long game with Tempo Mage against Overload Shaman.
What's that, you say? Trogg, Golem, Feral Spirit, Lava Shock, 7/7, Earth Elemental, Unbound Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer, Ancestral Knowledge, Lightning Storm, etc.
Really really annoying. I actually kept pace throughout but when it got to late-game he kept playing Overload cards with no real drawback while I eventually ran out of cards. Went through 27 cards and no Medivh, either.
Weirdest part: no Thing From Below.
Definitely one game where I needed a good early game curve.
What's that, you say? Trogg, Golem, Feral Spirit, Lava Shock, 7/7, Earth Elemental, Unbound Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer, Ancestral Knowledge, Lightning Storm, etc.
Really really annoying. I actually kept pace throughout but when it got to late-game he kept playing Overload cards with no real drawback while I eventually ran out of cards. Went through 27 cards and no Medivh, either.
Weirdest part: no Thing From Below.
Definitely one game where I needed a good early game curve.
Around gvg I was able to get to at least rank 5 every season, I stopped for a while and came back this month. I got to rank 7 and then went on a losing streak to 14, and now I cant get past rank 10. I'm playing reno mage and pirate warrior. Any tips to improve? What are some of the best decks to play right now? Is hearthpwn still a good source for lists?
You don't need the combo. You just need Jaraxxus as always.
You can add in a Senjin like I do instead of Shambler (or Firebat but I had that tech first). There are enough tech cards that you can fill those holes with, you can build your Renolock more defensive.
Feels weird to WANT to face Warriors and Shamans, but man, fuck the Jade Druid and Miracle Rogue match-ups with Reno Priest.
Jade Druid in particular feels almost 10-0. I actually tech'd in Elise because an early monkey is one of the few ways a Reno deck with no burn is going to beat Jades.
Jade Druid in particular feels almost 10-0. I actually tech'd in Elise because an early monkey is one of the few ways a Reno deck with no burn is going to beat Jades.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Oh yes that's been my go to method against jade druid. Just gotta tempo them out or wipe their board often enough you can answer their topdecks 1 for 1.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
That feeling when you win an Arena game because your opponent ran out of time to use their Polymorphed boar.
It somehow took them this long to add Dragonfire Potion to Kabal Chemist.
Well time to put that card back into Reno Mage and Renolock then. I subbed it out when I realized that most of the time I was hoping for either felfire potion or Volcanic and ended up with Freezing or Madness or something.
Here's some stats on this card now:
10 total potions can be discovered (now that dragonfire is in it).
3 are AoE board clears (Volcanic, Felfire, Dragonfire)
1 is hard removal (blastcrystal)
1 is self-healing (Greater Healing Potion)
1 is a secret (polymorph potion)
So chances are pretty good that you will discover at least 1 board clear. As opposed to it being 20% board clears, 30% with 3 cards in your discover feels a lot better.
Though now you have the (small) chance to ONLY discover board clears when maybe you want something else.
Well time to put that card back into Reno Mage and Renolock then. I subbed it out when I realized that most of the time I was hoping for either felfire potion or Volcanic and ended up with Freezing or Madness or something.
Here's some stats on this card now:
10 total potions can be discovered (now that dragonfire is in it).
3 are AoE board clears (Volcanic, Felfire, Dragonfire)
1 is hard removal (blastcrystal)
1 is self-healing (Greater Healing Potion)
1 is a secret (polymorph potion)
So chances are pretty good that you will discover at least 1 board clear. As opposed to it being 20% board clears, 30% with 3 cards in your discover feels a lot better.
Though now you have the (small) chance to ONLY discover board clears when maybe you want something else.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
Still looking!
Reno *Priest*.
I'd love to include Jaraxxus in my Priest deck, but I don't think the game will let me.
platypotamus
Member
Play against a warlock, problem solved!
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