slightconfuse
Banned
I want more beast in druid. I like beast druid a lot.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
- Status
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
So what's the best place right now to *steal FotM decklists*?
Also I'm really not sure what to craft anymore. N'zoth still a thing? Got like 7k+ dust.
And is there a current meta snapshot on liquid or tempo storm?
Also I'm really not sure what to craft anymore. N'zoth still a thing? Got like 7k+ dust.
And is there a current meta snapshot on liquid or tempo storm?
slightconfuse
Banned
Nzoth sees play in control warrior and paladin. Right now
Tempo storm has a good meta snapshot
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've never hidden my opinion on mad scientist being overrated. Which is a far cry from saying it's weak.
I think people talked about it like it's absolutely broken every time it hit the board. It was not.
It was also a card I was happy to see rotated.
hearthstonetopdecks.com
Smooth Operator
Member
Yeah Undertaker was overrated too
jk
I probably mentally ignored it because it's so off base that it's not even worth discussing... in my opinion of course.
And not sure what statistics you are citing here, Mad Scientist was played in every single Mage and Hunter deck since its inception.
It's absolutely broken every time it hits the board on Turn 2. That's enough.
My opinion on Mad Scientist isn't that the idea of the card is overpowered it just incentivizes the wrong thing. The card is horrible in Paladin since secrets are 1 mana, in hunter it's often played but now entirely outclaseed by Cloaked Huntress, but for mage with the most expensive secrets, the card is always good because it lets you cheat out a 3 mana spell for the cost of a 2/2 body. The card is never bad in any mage deck that runs secrets, even if you get hosed by doing the secrets in the wrong order, you still didn't have to pay for them.
It encourages mages to run only a few secrets and then makes you feel bad when you have to actually spend mana on them. With Mad Scientist, every mage secret is better played for free. So you only end up playing those secrets that can't be screwed up. Counterspell for example was nearly worthless while Mad Scientist was around due to it being unpredictable. The card's existence suppresses the desire for mage to play secrets naturally from hand since you are conditioned to expecting them for free from the deck through this deathrattle. If Mad Scientist was a Hunter or Paladin card, no one would care, but as a neutral it ruined mage secrets for years, and continues to do so in Wild.
That's why I'd be ok with changing it even now. I don't think they will, but I wouldn't cry if they did. The card is simply TOO good for mages not to run.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I agree, and in fact I've always argued secrets should be even stronger than they are now, and would be best if every class had some and even of different mana costs. I'd rather see stuff along the lines of Yu-Gi-Oh trap cards.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It actually wasn't played in early mech mage decks and possibly even fatigue mage decks.
And no, you didn't mentally ignore it... you just don't remember.
I am saying that it was overrated, that's all. Besides, we're just detracting from the original discussion anyway. Blizzard pushing secrets is a good thing and we shouldn't be complaining about them adding synergy cards. This whole "blizzard stop pushing X gimmick" is getting quite obnoxious and we see it almost literally every expansion.
Your opinion of it is 10x more nuanced than most people's. Like you said it could be very inconsistent, as in you've drawn mirror entity in a match up where you need mirror off mad scientist (like vs druid). And yes I think mad scientist's main issue was that the secret was random. Secrets are great for playing mind games and forcing compromises, and it doesn't achieve that quite as well when the secret is random.
I'd also be okay with them changing it. I think it was merely overrated back in the day, not that I don't think it was slightly too strong.
Even fatigue Mages run that card now because fetching Ice Block is too good.
Mech Mage decks adapted to include the card as a two of because people realized it was too good not to. Like you were actually sacrificing your win rate if you didn't put that card in.
That's how broken Mad Scientist is... people would give up playing Mechs and instead play Scientist plus Secrets because that's what improved winrates.
It's like Dr Balanced, it was so good that even including it in Freeze Mage improved your winrates. No one did that in the past but more recently players experimented with it in Wild and said that their win rates went up when they had Dr Balanced. That's how Scientist works in Mage and Hunter decks, it just automatically increases your overall winrate without a care for synergy or deck planning.
Mech Mage decks adapted to include the card as a two of because people realized it was too good not to. Like you were actually sacrificing your win rate if you didn't put that card in.
That's how broken Mad Scientist is... people would give up playing Mechs and instead play Scientist plus Secrets because that's what improved winrates.
It's like Dr Balanced, it was so good that even including it in Freeze Mage improved your winrates. No one did that in the past but more recently players experimented with it in Wild and said that their win rates went up when they had Dr Balanced. That's how Scientist works in Mage and Hunter decks, it just automatically increases your overall winrate without a care for synergy or deck planning.
What is this madness.
Secrets were pretty weak before Scientist. They had to print a fucked up OP card to make secrets viable. It's a 2-mana 2/2 that pulls a card from your deck and plays it. It's incredibly OP compared to any other minion in the game, much like MC.
But yeah card is overrated Kappa
Secrets were pretty weak before Scientist. They had to print a fucked up OP card to make secrets viable. It's a 2-mana 2/2 that pulls a card from your deck and plays it. It's incredibly OP compared to any other minion in the game, much like MC.
But yeah card is overrated Kappa
Man I hate that secret from below card.. we get it blizz we want us to play secrett. Still not think an archetype of Mage that play more than 3 card is any good except in the wild.. xixo n rdu already try to put effigy in tempo mage for wild tourney and its work because mad scientist is busted.. so this card in wild ìs just made wild more crazy.
Back to standard I'm sure you dont want more than 3 secret in your mage deck.. but blizz made the card so busted so you can justify put 2-3 secret to fit in this in your deck.. reno mage already use ice block anyway so I'm sure they could try to fit few more.. we seen tempo mage use ice block before so maybe they can go back to it.. I think its too hard to fit in to tempo mage tho.
Btw love the warlock aoe bomb.
Back to standard I'm sure you dont want more than 3 secret in your mage deck.. but blizz made the card so busted so you can justify put 2-3 secret to fit in this in your deck.. reno mage already use ice block anyway so I'm sure they could try to fit few more.. we seen tempo mage use ice block before so maybe they can go back to it.. I think its too hard to fit in to tempo mage tho.
Btw love the warlock aoe bomb.
it is a pretty OP card..
it is even better when you consider the "secret" value, since when I play a secret the opponent can make a guess about what it could be since I specifically played it for an specific value on that given turn, with MS it is totally a wild guess since it can pull anything
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Mech mage was super popular at one point but ultimately that meta was figured out and pretty quickly tbh. I remember running over mech mage decks with control/midrange paladin and oil rogue. Eventually mech mage was basically extinct due to how good people were at beating it. It lasted maybe a single month.
I'll never argue UT was overrated though. That was absolutely broken.
Karsticles
Member
Mech Mage is still common in Wild. I fight one a day or so.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm talking about gvg meta on upper ranks of ladder though. Eventually if you saw a mage on ladder you assumed tempo mage or freeze mage.
BananasWithGuns
Member
You know, it didn't occur to me until now but Kabal Lackey is actually a pretty massive boon for Medivh's Valet.
2 mana 2/2 minion
Battlecry: Discover a Secret.
This hypothetical minion is way weaker than Mad Scientist but it's still kind of OP. That's how strong Mad Scientist is.
Also I think design like this is way better if you want to encourage secrets. You Discover a Secret on a slightly overstatted minion. That's how it should be done.
Battlecry: Discover a Secret.
This hypothetical minion is way weaker than Mad Scientist but it's still kind of OP. That's how strong Mad Scientist is.
Also I think design like this is way better if you want to encourage secrets. You Discover a Secret on a slightly overstatted minion. That's how it should be done.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I dunno about that. If you could add the perfect secret for each match up... wow. That'd be better I think. Then you play 2 of them with brann... wow. Mad scientist never really supported a wide variety of secrets, but with that card you could have strong secrets without ever adding them to your deck.
And you think that is way weaker than mad scientist? Well, I guess it makes sense if you overrate mad scientist
I dunno about that. If you could add the perfect secret for each match up... wow. That'd be better I think. Then you play 2 of them with brann... wow. Mad scientist never really supported a wide variety of secrets, but with that card you could have strong secrets without ever adding them to your deck.
And you think that is way weaker than mad scientist? Well, I guess it makes sense if you overrate mad scientist
no fucking way that's better than mad scientist lmao
and I just realize secret that opponent discover n play from hand is far easier to play around than mad scientist pull
double lmao
I dunno about that. If you could add the perfect secret for each match up... wow. That'd be better I think. Then you play 2 of them with brann... wow. Mad scientist never really supported a wide variety of secrets, but with that card you could have strong secrets without ever adding them to your deck.
And you think that is way weaker than mad scientist? Well, I guess it makes sense if you overrate mad scientist
You would still have to pay mana for the secret you discover. Mad Scientist is crazy, crazy tempo. The power level of that card would be closer to Dark Peddler than Mad Scientist.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Better or about as good. I think so. Mad scientist was silenceable. This can generate strong spells, like babbling book can, like netherspite can, and combos with brann. And there is no kezan mystic and eater of secrets is really bad... It's a really good card early game and you may not even mind top decking late game because there is a solid chance you get a mirror entity or counterspell... those kind of pulls are blow outs and something you cannot play around in certain match ups.
This is all before considering they just added ~4 or 5 secret synergy cards for mage between MSG and karazhan. Like playing a secret for 1 mana. Mad scientist doesn't play the secret, it summons it. The new thing from below discounts on plays.
I felt shitty 100% of the time I silenced Mad Scientist, because you still lose that exchange. A 2/2 is better than a 2/1.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Well, back then if you don't recall owl was 2 mana and it was a fairly even trade. In actual gameplay doing so usually meant the secret users was losing, especially if they later top deck the secret at an inopportune time.
Silencing a Mad Scientist was god damn terrible. Using up your silence for a 2 mana card is horrendous tempo and value. It's not like you are silencing a Twilight Drake or a Tirion here. Might as well talk about the godlike value of silencing a Haunted Creeper or a Minibot... wow.
Hunters were running two Owls at a time that did not deter people from running double Scientists.
Don't know why there is such fixation on it being overrated or not. Card was played as a two of in Hunter/Mage decks pre and post Owl, pre and post Eater of Secrets/Kezan Mystic whatever the hell.
And Mad Scientist is far better than a hypothetical 2 mana 2/2 that can Discover a Secret. I don't think you know why Mad Scientist is that powerful if you can't see the difference. Mad Scientist not only generates value (and thins your deck which is a godlike attribute) but it generates tempo too. That card doesn't generate Tempo because first you give up tempo on the turn it is played and then you give up tempo by playing a secret.
Hunters were running two Owls at a time that did not deter people from running double Scientists.
Don't know why there is such fixation on it being overrated or not. Card was played as a two of in Hunter/Mage decks pre and post Owl, pre and post Eater of Secrets/Kezan Mystic whatever the hell.
And Mad Scientist is far better than a hypothetical 2 mana 2/2 that can Discover a Secret. I don't think you know why Mad Scientist is that powerful if you can't see the difference. Mad Scientist not only generates value (and thins your deck which is a godlike attribute) but it generates tempo too. That card doesn't generate Tempo because first you give up tempo on the turn it is played and then you give up tempo by playing a secret.
I remember an old thread I saw on reddit that had infographics on card usage so I found it again.
http://imgur.com/a/3Eb97
Look at the top 5 common usage percent. Mad Scientist made it despite only being used in Hunter/Mage which is absolutely insane.
http://imgur.com/a/3Eb97
Look at the top 5 common usage percent. Mad Scientist made it despite only being used in Hunter/Mage which is absolutely insane.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm a little surprised dr. 4 wasn't ahead of dr. 7 just by virtue of it being common. That dr. 7 was that high while being legendary is insane.
But taking a closer look at Kabal Crystal Runner, I'm not sold on it actually being super strong. Its unlikely you can play it before turn 4. And its the Taunt that truly makes thing from below powerful. Faster decks can just ignore your 5/5, and control decks likely don't care much about it either.
I don't see Mad Scientist on there. Unless you mean Common cards.
Here's the actual picture:
http://m.imgur.com/GIQslCN
I am more surprised that Drake and Emperor are over Loatheb. Also no wonder is Drake is by far the most commonly used card in HS right now, card was insane even during pre Standard.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It actually was a solid play. You contest the 2 drop and negate it's draw/play power. Haunted creeper and minibot are very different cards... not sure why you think they're the same.
And so what if hunters ran 2 owls?
There is no fixation. It's just an opinion I have that happened to be brought up in a different conversation, that for some reason people really take issue with. It's obviously a strong card but I think it was overrated because people fixate on the situations where it is strong and ignored the situations where it was weak.
I had to actually go back to remember what the conversation was. Basically every time they add a card with a tribe or synergy to promote an archetype, it's "bliz stop doing that!".
Because silencing a Minibot/Creeper allows you to contest it with an Owl as well. Hell throw in Loot Hoarder in there. None of these feels good to go and you would rather save your silence for bigger targets.
I am saying two Owls mattered because that was not enough deter people from using Mad Scientist. The meta tried it's hardest to negate Scientist but it was unsuccessful.
I am saying two Owls mattered because that was not enough deter people from using Mad Scientist. The meta tried it's hardest to negate Scientist but it was unsuccessful.
Smooth Operator
Member
Dahbomb have you tried Yu-Gi-Oh Duels Links on IOS/Android ? The US version is up, and it's great so far (No stamina bullshit, season 1 only for now, voiceover...)
I saw some game play video and it seems to be using the 3 monster zones and 3 spell/trap zone formula of the watered down YGO games.
That's not really interesting IMO unless they have reworked a ton of the rest of the game as well. Otherwise many decks/strategies will not work with fewer monster/spell zones.
It might be decent for people who have never played YGO before as it reduces the complexity a bit but I am not sure if this is how they should be going about it.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Blizzard raising the cap on the heroic brawl from 5 to 100.
Guess the streamers can go nuts now.
Guess the streamers can go nuts now.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Silencing a minibot or a haunted creeper is simply not the same value. When you silence a mad scientist you're basically negating an entire card from being drawn and played. Just because they all share the same mana cost you think they're equally valuable as a silence target? That is a real head scratcher as to why you'd think that.
Again, so what if hunter ran 2 mad scientists? Does paladin stop playing tirion because owl exists? Did people stop playing sludge belcher or shredder? Nope.
Now I get to spend 1000 dollars on hearthstone for 100 packs. Dream fulfilled.
I bet they got more interest than they expected.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Mad Scientist is a slightly understatted minion that thins your deck and plays a card for free.
Come on, how can you look at that and say it's overrated.
Come on, how can you look at that and say it's overrated.
- Status