There are many powerful overload cards, lava burst, doomhammer etc. You don't have to use it turn 1 (in fact it would be bad unless you had a Trogg in play).
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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There are many powerful overload cards, lava burst, doomhammer etc. You don't have to use it turn 1 (in fact it would be bad unless you had a Trogg in play).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
then run those cards. All of them are considerably worse when they cost 2 more.
Do you think anything you draw with tracking costs 1 more?
A draw has an inherent cost that you are ignoring.
The Wizard
Member
I'm pretty scared of N'zoth's First Mate (pulling Patches) into coin Small-Time Buccaneer. Imagine if you could muster on turn one. And one of the 1/1s got charge. And one got +2/+1. And all of them had a tag that was relevant to your deck's synergy. Bonkers.
I'd love to be proven wrong about Wrathion but what spells would you cut and what dragons would you include and what spells would you cut?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Those cards aren't even in the same ballpark, tracking is incomparably better. Card filtering, controlling the range of cards it can give you, thinning the deck, costing just 1,...
You don't mind playing tracking turn 1 but this turn 1 is awful. Even later on it's only ever good if you got 1 mana free the current and the next turn.
You still aren't paying two extra for anything you draw from this card.
I think you will be surprised about the playability of this card. By your logic Raven Idol is a bad card.
You know, prior to Old Gods, everybody said that overload cards were terrible.
Suddenly, overload cards are considered OP? Even the classic overcosted ones like Lava Burst? Enough that you'll actually pay 2 mana for discover with zero body attached?
Nah bro. Finders Keepers isn't even playable unless you run Unbound Elemental and Lava Shock.
Suddenly, overload cards are considered OP? Even the classic overcosted ones like Lava Burst? Enough that you'll actually pay 2 mana for discover with zero body attached?
Nah bro. Finders Keepers isn't even playable unless you run Unbound Elemental and Lava Shock.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Sure if you can fit it in between turns you aren't but that shouldn't happen with shaman. This card is a very bad cantrip, if you play it, it will make your turns awkward.
Also discover isn't draw.
Raven Idol is being played in a deck that has a spells matter theme, further synergy with Fandral and only one other turn 1 play barring innervate shenanigans.
I wouldn't play it if those weren't true.
Yeah I get annoyed every time they were saying a deck like freeze mage or Control Warrior farms shaman or counters shaman.
Hell you could make a Paladin or Priest deck that does well vs. Shaman, but you are still taking a coin flip. I beat the shit out of shamans at low ranks all the time; I went 7-1 vs. Shaman yesterday with Paladin. It doesn't change the reality we can see from these stats.
Think about it; Shamans worst match up was even. So, from a pure competitive standpoint you are better off running Shaman since the Mirror match is just as good or better than running a "counter" deck and your will do better vs. the rest of the field.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Welp, quests cleared and all set for tomorrow.
6030 Gold
9265 Dust
50 Packs
6030 Gold
9265 Dust
50 Packs
Dude just think of the card as a Raven Idol. Now add the overload cost to it, which is the only argument against the card since we all know Raven Idol is a god tier card. Now whether the smaller pool of (overload) cards is better than the larger pool of Druid spells or the minions is a deciding factor on whether the card is playable and my guess is yes.
The flexibility of discover has been proven to be one of the best keywords in HS and the pool or overload cards is excellent. You have board clears, single target burst, huge minions, doomhammer and even card draw.
You will never be sad to topdick this card in late game.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Not everyone was saying overload cards were terrible.
Plus, if you compare it to a card like babbling book, yes you miss out on the often meaningless 1/1 body, but you also have discover as opposed to pure RNG, so... it's a pretty good trade off.
Getting a third lava burst in aggro shaman, could be back braking and something you can't really play around. Midrange shaman playing a doomhammer off discover, that isn't really something you can anticipate and leads to a quick loss. Or maybe you're about to finish off your shaman opponent, and they play a jinyu and heal for 6 or they elemental destruction and you're out of resources.
which ones? honestly the odds are good to draw straight fire with this card.
Yeah nobody was actually playing Raven Idol in Constructed until Fandral came to town. 1 mana Discover spells usually need some synergy with the rest of the deck to see play. Finders Keepers is overcosted relative to the other Discover spells because it doubles down on the overload synergy. So your deck has to use overload somehow to play Finders Keepers, through something with relatively powerful synergy like Unbound Elemental. You don't play Finders Keepers just to discover a random overload card. Discover isn't that good.
What synergy does Tracking have with any cards in the game?
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Journey Below ended up working as a simple discover just because of how good Anub'arak is in some matchups and how bad it is in others.
I haven't gone through the overload cards yet, so I don't know if there's the same dynamic of flexabily being as good there.
I haven't gone through the overload cards yet, so I don't know if there's the same dynamic of flexabily being as good there.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You determine the range of cards tracking can get, hunter generally has a pretty low curve, it thins your deck and still goes in and out of favour regularly. It's also half the cost.
I'm ready to eat crow on finder's keepers
pretty different, you are actually skipping 2 cards from your own deck and getting one from your own deck, not just 3 random cards
Overload cards are much more flexible than deathrattle cards.
Thinning is often bad in hearthstone unlike in most card games.
That is like saying fel reaver thins your deck. That kind of thinning isn't good. You usually don't care that you're losing those cards, but it isn't a positive.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Probably, which would mean it makes more sense just to include the overload card itself instead of adding the additional step of discovering.
True, but not for Hunter class.
1. Tracking is not Discover. Similar mechanic but not the same. You have a slightly higher quality card pool with Tracking.
2. Tracking is fair, not crazy. Plenty of Hunter decks don't run it at all
Hunter gives zero fucks about tossing out 2 cards from their deck through Tracking. Other classes/decks might think twice.
Not that this kind of thinning is beneficial for Hunter either. It has no effect for them.
Well this is an argument that has been used against every discover card in the game and even some card draw, and they all miss the utility of cantripping and discovering
This is just false. The last tournament I watched had discussion and situations about tracking losing the player his second highmane or kill command. It's been an issue from the dawn of HS.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Fel Reaver was a bad comparison before and is a bad comparison here. You don't control the cards that are being burned and it doesn't provide enough value for you to risk getting milled all your wincons.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Finder's keepers could be something that enables malygos shaman. Get an extra lightning bolt for your finisher.
I think the key strength of this kind of card is flexibility though. You just don't expect midrange shaman to pull out a doomhammer or hit you with a lava burst or clear your board with elemental destruction. And sometimes cards are really strong when you don't have to include them in your deck, but you get them anyway in the right scenario.
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Kibler is on point in evaluating jade golem, overrated. I gave it a 4 cause I think it's good, but not a 5 because it's not a card that is auto-win as people suggest against control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHQHv3PlBo
edit:not jade golem jade idol
I think the key strength of this kind of card is flexibility though. You just don't expect midrange shaman to pull out a doomhammer or hit you with a lava burst or clear your board with elemental destruction. And sometimes cards are really strong when you don't have to include them in your deck, but you get them anyway in the right scenario.
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Kibler is on point in evaluating jade golem, overrated. I gave it a 4 cause I think it's good, but not a 5 because it's not a card that is auto-win as people suggest against control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHQHv3PlBo
edit:not jade golem jade idol
There's a real power to pulling a card not in your deck to fit the scenario. A slower shaman deck may not need doomhammer but find the situation suits it to close a game out, things of that nature. The dragon discover chick is a strong example of that impact since many dragon decks just cut all the big slow dudes and find it through her if necessary, but also get the chance for more taunts or midrange threats in faster matchups.
I dunno if the shaman one is good enough but I wouldn't quickly discredit it either.
I dunno if the shaman one is good enough but I wouldn't quickly discredit it either.
That highmane or kill command could have been the last card in the deck. Sometimes tracking will discard two cards that aren't highmane or kill command and your draws are closer to highmane or kill command. At the end, these effects are zero sum. Or if anything, it's just more information as to what you WON'T draw, and that level of information benefits you. Just like Fel Reaver, discarding cards from your deck means little until fatigue is reached.
Wow just saw the rest of the cards, Hobart seems super cool!
And if that 2 mana 0/7 taunt doesn't enable bolster warrior, nothing ever will
If those cards wouldn't be discarded, but returned to the deck, Tracking would be 10x better.
And if that 2 mana 0/7 taunt doesn't enable bolster warrior, nothing ever will
If those cards wouldn't be discarded, but returned to the deck, Tracking would be 10x better.
A light in the darkness is too broad in my experience. It can pull ANY minion, and if you just take 3 out of the entire hearthstone pool there's a lot of garbage.
Ivory Knight on the other hand is pretty good since spell is more specific. Though it's mostly hurt by the quantity of secrets(which are sometimes fine).
Ivory Knight on the other hand is pretty good since spell is more specific. Though it's mostly hurt by the quantity of secrets(which are sometimes fine).
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
and that was a pointless discussion. Your deck is randomized every card from it is as likely to be drawn as any other. You don't know the order and don't base your decision on what it could be the top of the deck is random after tracking minus the 2 cards that were burned.
The only case it really matters is if you run out of threats to end the game and if that regularly happens don't run tracking.
Nope. Wouldn't really change the power level of the card at all, except in Control Hunter.
I think your issue here is Loss Aversion Bias.
This is not as impossible of a scenario than you think.
That is just trolling at this point.
I've already explained why I don't think this is the case. You don't have to accuse me of trolling just because we disagree.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't think it's impossible. I think those are either fringe cases that shouldn't influence your deckbuilding or if they are not you should cut tracking.
Discarding the cards from tracking has caused backfires often enough that it can be called a different card if it was changed. "Not change the card at all" is just a silly thing to say.
Yes, you cut tracking if the downside of tracking affects your deck enough to overshadow the benefit of choosing a card to draw.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Tracking definitely has a big downside when you discard a powerful card. Sometimes it discards your only path to victory, like a highmane. You could argue you never draw that highmane, but there was still a chance you could draw that highmane and now it's zero.
I think that is a card that is close to playable. But also finder's keepers is perhaps a lot easier to fit in, and definitely a higher strength on average more predictable pool of cards than any minion in the game.
Finders Keeper probably won't see play for the same reason Light in the Darkness doesn't see play. Believe me I tried.
However, the synergy with overload and the power of Shaman might be enough to make it slightly more popular.
I think that is a card that is close to playable. But also finder's keepers is perhaps a lot easier to fit in, and definitely a higher strength on average more predictable pool of cards than any minion in the game.
I didn't say it wouldn't change the card. I said it wouldn't change the power level of the card, except for Control Hunter.
A downside that does not exist for competitive hunter decks. You are very focused on what it means to lose cards from your deck, a fallacy similar to what people didn't understand about Fel Reaver.
If I had more energy now I would search for a tourney match where the discard mattered, but whatever.
Finders Keeper probably won't see play for the same reason Light in the Darkness doesn't see play. Believe me I tried.
However, the synergy with overload and the power of Shaman might be enough to make it slightly more popular.
Except you are not paying the 2 cost right away, a 1 cost mana card is better even with that drawback, it allows you to play the card you discovered earlier or even in the same turn, and discovering a minion from the vast pool of them is very different tan from the way smaller pool of overload cards
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You could also find a game where fel reaver discards mattered. The downsides are not insignificant, but the cards are very playable and powerful. Dropping fel reaver sometimes meant you had to already have a winning hand, very different from a normal aggro strategy relying on top decks.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I do not like Fel Reaver btw, I think it's bad and was always bad. At 6 mana there are just too many cost efficient answers that make the downside too much.
conversely you could look at probably dozens of matches where tracking burning the cards lead to higher chances to find the card they needed for lethal.
conversely you could look at probably dozens of matches where tracking burning the cards lead to higher chances to find the card they needed for lethal.
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