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[RibbedHero]

Doing a bit more research the data seems to suggest that as of now 2GB is unlikely to be limiting, especially not at 1080p.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/evga-geforce-gtx-670-4gb.html

I'd echo the sentiment that most 4GB cards do not have the power to properly utilise those 4GB, and as such it's best to get the cheaper card (2GB) and then upgrade later when both VRAM and performance are higher than now. No point getting a 4GB 670 that can't take advantage of 4GB RAM due to how "weak" it will be in the future.

One last point, as all tests into the difference between 2GB and 4GB so far have been conducted using average FPS we cannot determine whether VRAM limits have affected stuttering and consistent frame times. This suggests that it might, albeit in a triple monitor setting:

Notice the minimum FPS for the 2GB cards is half the minimum for the 4GB cards, possibly caused by the cards hitting a VRAM limit.

 

[iqubal]

Need advice. Looking for a new 27" monitor. I'm sticking with 1080p as I have a gtx 660 and on a budget. I saw some instore and they looked fine. I am deciding between these 3 particularly. I saw the HP one in person and it looked amazing so that is sort of the front runner:

BenQ GW2750HM:

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=69381&vpn=GW2750HM&manufacture=BenQ&promoid=1334

asus ve278Q:

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=56378&promoid=1334

HP 2711x:

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=8f3428143bdf946a715fa586ac6e6d7een02

Primary for web surfing and PC Gaming. I watch movies on my bigger HDTV. Any help would be great! Thanks!

 

[knitoe]

Doing a bit more research the data seems to suggest that as of now 2GB is unlikely to be limiting, especially not at 1080p.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/evga-geforce-gtx-670-4gb.html

I'd echo the sentiment that most 4GB cards do not have the power to properly utilise those 4GB, and as such it's best to get the cheaper card (2GB) and then upgrade later when both VRAM and performance are higher than now. No point getting a 4GB 670 that can't take advantage of 4GB RAM due to how "weak" it will be in the future.

One last point, as all tests into the difference between 2GB and 4GB so far have been conducted using average FPS we cannot determine whether VRAM limits have affected stuttering and consistent frame times. This suggests that it might, albeit in a triple monitor setting:


Notice the minimum FPS for the 2GB cards is half the minimum for the 4GB cards, possibly caused by the cards hitting a VRAM limit.

Right now, to take advantage of the >2GB of ram, you are pretty much stuck with going higher res, downsampling and/or higher AA. Performance wise, they are very demanding settings. The game assets stay pretty much the same. Once next gen comes, I wouldn't be surprise if developers start using way more HiRes textures, for one. Upping the textures amount is less demanding than higher Res or higher AA. So, saying current cards may not have the performance to use 4GB is incorrect. And, fuck me for trying to save money on Bioshock Infinite (retail $38). Mine should arrive today, but from reading the performance thread, people are complaining about LowRes textures even though the game is already using close to 2GB VRAM. That wouldn't be an issue if the game was design with 4GB VRAM as the recommended spec.

 

[AstroLad]

Is this a decent place to do hardware diagnostics? Seems kinda funky but Tom's recommends it: http://www.pcpitstop.com/betapit/

 

[Mystic_Wanderer]

Need advice. Looking for a new 27" monitor. I'm sticking with 1080p as I have a gtx 660 and on a budget. I saw some instore and they looked fine. I am deciding between these 3 particularly. I saw the HP one in person and it looked amazing so that is sort of the front runner:

BenQ GW2750HM:

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=69381&vpn=GW2750HM&manufacture=BenQ&promoid=1334

asus ve278Q:

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=56378&promoid=1334

HP 2711x:

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=8f3428143bdf946a715fa586ac6e6d7een02

Primary for web surfing and PC Gaming. I watch movies on my bigger HDTV. Any help would be great! Thanks!

I have a 2511x. I love the gloss of the monitor and how bright it is. I was also able to get it for $159.99 new, that helped.

 

[t-ramp]

Is this a decent place to do hardware diagnostics? Seems kinda funky but Tom's recommends it: http://www.pcpitstop.com/betapit/

What are you concerned about? I'd just use a disc scanning utility (HDTune, maybe) to do a benchmark and sector scan of your hard drives, maybe do a memory test, make sure your mechanical drives are defragmented, and maybe a couple other things.

 

[Bumhead]

Been tasked with building a budget gaming PC for my younger brother. Budget is key really; over £400 is pretty much a no-no. The hopeful end result is at least better than current gen performance on modern games, and hopefully at least some future proofing on next-gen (although I'm under no illusions regarding 60/1080p next-gen games)

Managed to put together a basket for £373 all in.

http://www.scan.co.uk/savedbasket/1b307a26c64443d7a8dbf8f560493021

Started building it very loosely around the Eurogamer £300 build, which I've linked below. Took a few liberties though and stretched to what at least looks to me like a stronger build.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-introducing-the-digital-foundry-pc

Any thoughts and recommendations most welcome. I've only ever built two PC's before and they were both higher budget than this, so if I can get more for my money anywhere I'd love to hear about it. Thanks in advance.

 

[RibbedHero]

Right now, to take advantage of the >2GB of ram, you are pretty much stuck with going higher res, downsampling and/or high AA. Performance wise, they are very demanding settings. The other game assets stay pretty much the same. Once next gen comes, I wouldn't be surprise if developers start using way more HiRes textures. Upping the textures amount is less demanding than higher Res or higher AA. So, saying current cards may not have the performance to use 4GB is incorrect. And, fuck me for trying to save money on Bioshock Infinite (retail $38). Mine should arrive today, but from reading the performance thread, people are complaining about LowRes textures even though the game is already using close to 2GB VRAM. That wouldn't be an issue if the game was design with 4GB VRAM as the recommended spec.

Very good point about high AA vs textures.

From my time playing Bioshock Infinite, and from reading online, it seems that Bioshock Infinite scales VRAM up.

 

[AstroLad]

What are you concerned about? I'd just use a disc scanning utility (HDTune, maybe) to do a benchmark and sector scan of your hard drives, maybe do a memory test, make sure your mechanical drives are defragmented, and maybe a couple other things.

yeah bad memory and other stuff cramping my style

 

[mkenyon]

NFC Systems S3 final design, for sale soon. There might be a Kickstarter as well.

 

[memecomplex]

fucking love it, looks like I'll be collecting indie ITX cases

 

[mkenyon]

I'd love to get a GAF custom S3, sell it as the GAF Steambox. I bet there's a ton of people that would go for it. Believe.

 

[Smokey]

I'm here to smash the inductive reasoning pushing for additional VRAM over the last few pages.
Graphs

Yeah but issues with VRAM would not necessarily show in these graphs. Bottom line is the games in these graphs are current gen titles. The bar is being raised next gen considerably on consoles and naturally on PC. 2GB will no doubt get you buy just fine today and maybe for the foreseeable future. But if that person somewhere along the lines decides to move up to the superior resolution choice of 2560x1600 or downsample or whatever, it would be better to go the route of more VRAM to accommodate those situations. I assume most people keep their cards for at LEAST 2 years or so. A lot will change in that time.

Bioshock Infinite legitimately has issues with hitting the VRAM ceiling of 2GB cards if you are trying to max it out, forcing you to reduce settings to resolve some of those issues. I imagine as we go forward these types of issues will pop up more and more.

 

[mkenyon]

Gimmie data.

 

[Smokey]

I'm giving you my mind tho

Those graphs don't illustrate if there is an issue with the VRAM or not, unless they specifically say so. Guru3D specifically says so regarding Bioshock Infinite. While it may be one game, it is (obviously) a recent high profile title. It's just like RAM. 4GB will do you good, but if you have the ability why not get 8GB? If you don't want to update your machine as much as others, get the most of anything you can afford at the time. In this case if I'm keeping a card for 2-3+ years, I'm going for 3GB minimum.

 

[kennah]

NFC Systems S3 final design, for sale soon. There might be a Kickstarter as well.

You're welcome. He was waiting for me to buy something else before releasing

But wouldn't it be limiting on an overclock?

Spoiler

i'll probably kick in on the kickstarter anyway. Dammit

 

[mkenyon]

I'm giving you my mind tho

Those graphs don't illustrate if there is an issue with the VRAM or not, unless they specifically say so. Guru3D specifically says so regarding Bioshock Infinite. While it may be one game, it is (obviously) a recent high profile title. It's just like RAM. 4GB will do you good, but if you have the ability why not get 8GB? If you don't want to update your machine as much as others, get the most of anything you can afford at the time. In this case if I'm keeping a card for 2-3+ years, I'm going for 3GB minimum.

I agree with you in principle, but my point relates back to the 670/680 in specific. I'm telling people to get the Titan over the 690 due to the 6GBOMGDDR5 and memory bandwidth, as well as the fact that it's a single card. So I'm definitely on board for more VRAM and memory bandwidth.

When you're talking about making a $370 card $440-450 with the 670 2 vs. 4, I think that's a very very different situation. I haven't seen anything that shows the GK104 cards are worth the memory bump.

Ultimately, I'd say if someone is in the market for a high end card right now, I have a hard time suggesting anything other than the 7950/7970 or Titan.

 

[Infinite Justice]

its funny that "RAM fever" is now hitting this thread

 

[Dave_6]

What is ideally the best 7970 on the market right now? I see Gigabyte makes one but most of the reviews on Newegg say that it is voltage locked. I'm taking that means no overclocking? Are the Sapphire cards any good?

 

[Smokey]

I agree with you in principle, but my point relates back to the 670/680 in specific. I'm telling people to get the Titan over the 690 due to the 6GBOMGDDR5 and memory bandwidth, as well as the fact that it's a single card. So I'm definitely on board for more VRAM and memory bandwidth.

When you're talking about making a $370 card $440-450 with the 670 2 vs. 4, I think that's a very very different situation. I haven't seen anything that shows the GK104 cards are worth the memory bump.

Ultimately, I'd say if someone is in the market for a high end card right now, I have a hard time suggesting anything other than the 7950/7970 or Titan.

Ok I think we agree, just saying it in different ways. The memory bus/interface of the GK104 would most likely cause trouble before the VRAM.

 

[mkenyon]

Voltage locked just means an OC limited to 1100 or so most likely.

Despite some of the bad reviews on the other Power Color with a similar SKU, this is the one I'd be most interested in:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131489

The MSI Lightning is a good OC'er as well, but it comes at a price premium. The Sapphire should be great too.

Ok I think we agree, just saying it in different ways. The memory bus/interface of the GK104 would most likely cause trouble before the VRAM.

The thing is, is that a lot of people aren't savvy enough to distill all of that information. They just see "more VRAM = better" and immediately jump on the 4GB GK104 cards for no proven benefit. Hell, I even did when I got my 4GB 670s

 

[MedIC86]

So, im looking to upgrade my pc when the haswell's hit the market (in June) would it safe to buy a gpu already to spread the costs? because i thought there will be no new gpu's until q3/q4, what do you guys think?

 

[Infinite Justice]

What is ideally the best 7970 on the market right now? I see Gigabyte makes one but most of the reviews on Newegg say that it is voltage locked. I'm taking that means no overclocking? Are the Sapphire cards any good?

yea they usually tag along with Gigabyte and Asus in this thread.

Asus (slightly the most "silent")
Gigabyte
Sapphire

or

Gigabyte (slightly coolest temperature wise)
Asus
Sapphire


dont remember if that model is voltage locked though

 

[mkenyon]

Despite being voltage locked, I was able to OC my old DCII 7970 to 1090. Both it and my Matrix 7970 were/are extremely quiet too. I play with it on an open air bench and it's not offensive at all, and that's with it clocked at 1200MHz.

 

[theSlacker]

So, im looking to upgrade my pc when the haswell's hit the market (in June) would it safe to buy a gpu already to spread the costs? because i thought there will be no new gpu's until q3/q4, what do you guys think?

What is the point of spreading costs? To get the euphoric feel of purchasing something right now? Put the monies in the bank till you can buy the full thing unless you see some super deal. Who knows what prices will be when haswell hits.

 

[M3z_]

Sapphire is a terrific brand for AMD cards, I highly recommend them.

 

[Askani]

MicroCenter added their bonus MoBo deal again so I think I'm about to pull the trigger. May have talked myself into an i7 + MoBo + RAM. Just working out which of the two MoBos I want and exactly how much RAM.

Feels good man.

 

[snack]

NFC Systems S3 final design, for sale soon. There might be a Kickstarter as well.

Love it.

 

[Dave_6]

Thanks guys. I kind of jumped the gun on selling a 4GB 670 now that I look back but hindsight is always 20/20 so I'm looking at GPUs again. It's really tempting to get a 7970 since AMD still has that deal going on and most of you seem to agree that a 7950/7970 is the way to go for a single card setup right now (I don't have the $$$ for a Titan and im only going to be gaming at 1080p).

 

[Celcius]

Interesting discussion over the last few pages regarding vram. Also keep in mind that if you buy a card that would run out of power before being able to utilize all the vram (for example 4gb gtx 670), you could always add a second card later. It's similar to the Titans, since I think a single titan would run out of power before being able to utilize all 6gb in a game (although titans aren't available with less vram).

*gets popcorn and watches more*

 

[knitoe]

Interesting discussion over the last few pages regarding vram. Also keep in mind that if you buy a card that would run out of power before being able to utilize all the vram (for example 4gb gtx 670), you could always add a second card later. It's similar to the Titans, since I think a single titan would run out of power before being able to utilize all 6gb in a game (although titans aren't available with less vram).

*gets popcorn and watches more*

I already explain why the assumption that current video cards would run out of power before taking advantage of 4/6GB of VRAM is incorrect.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Hey guys. Just wanted an answer to some of these question. Hazaro told me to post in the the forum.

I thought you might know the answer to this question. I'm planning on bringing my PC tower with me to an internship and I was hoping you could answer a question or two.

I'm planning on going by plane and brining my PC tower. I'll be taking with me on the carry on, my two main SSD's, my video card, and memory.

The rest of the tower with the CPU, my H100 cooler and motherboard along with the fans and power supply I'll leave in the tower to check in.

I just had a question on whether I should worry about the H100 leaking or whatnot because of the pressure change when going up and down.

Also, I had a question or I guess I wanted your opinion on what do you think I should bring with me in the carry on.

Just requoting for new page.

 

[Mystic_Wanderer]

Okay, dunno what the heck is going on.

Nothing out of the ordinary run, nothing new installed, etc. Tried several restarts to no avail, checked, drivers are up to date, etc.

Now I cannot manually control the fan via Catalyst Control Center (AMD 7870), and the power control settings went to 0% and I cannot change that either. System is running 3-6 degrees hotter than normal too.

Can still change everything else, such as GPU/memory clock settings.

 

[Smokey]

Okay, dunno what the heck is going on.

Nothing out of the ordinary run, nothing new installed, etc. Tried several restarts to no avail, checked, drivers are up to date, etc.

Now I cannot manually control the fan via Catalyst Control Center (AMD 7870), and the power control settings went to 0% and I cannot change that either. System is running 3-6 degrees hotter than normal too.

Can still change everything else, such as GPU/memory clock settings.

I know this feel bruh

Do a clean uninstall of whatever drivers you having running, and re install.

 

[knitoe]

Just requoting for new page.

Doubtful, the change in air pressure will do anything. The H100 was probably shipped to vendors by airplane too. The bigger issue is how airport personal likes to throw your belonging around which could easily cause damage to things inside your case. Personally, I would wrap all the major stuff separately, especially bag the H100 so if it leaks it won't cause problems, and throw them in a big box for check in. For carry on, storage drives, CPU and video card.

 

[The Insane Dufresne]

I have a few questions about graphics cards:


How often do they refresh/come out with new models ?



What kind of performance can be expected from mid-range cards (i.e. 7870, 660ti)?



What is the resell market usually like for higher end cards after a few years (i.e. 680, 7970) ?

 

[Smokey]

I have a few questions about graphics cards:


How often do they refresh/come out with new models ?



What kind of performance can be expected from mid-range cards (i.e. 7870, 660ti)?



What is the resell market usually like for higher end cards after a few years (i.e. 680, 7970) ?

1.depends. Usually each year or so a new model is supposed to hit, but doesn't. The 600 and 7000 series are going on 2 yrs old.

2. Will be able to play at 1080p, high to max settings depending on the game.

3. Depends on when you resell. Timing is key.

 

[nbthedude]

I'm here to smash the inductive reasoning pushing for additional VRAM over the last few pages.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying you are all wrong, I am specifically saying I WANT BETTER INFORMATION TO CONVINCE ME.
a.

Isn't the best argument that most of those games were not designed to take advantage of it, but upcoming consoles will definitely have more VRAM therefore having a card with more VRAM puts you in a better position come Fall.

 

[nbthedude]

I have a few questions about graphics cards:


How often do they refresh/come out with new models ?



What kind of performance can be expected from mid-range cards (i.e. 7870, 660ti)?



What is the resell market usually like for higher end cards after a few years (i.e. 680, 7970) ?

As Smokey said, a midrange card like the 7870 will get you high settings on most games today at 1080P fairly easily. There is an outlier here and there but generally it is true that you only need a midrange card to max most current games at 1080p.

 

[mkenyon]

It's just speculation though.

To be honest, I don't know nearly enough about game engines or programming to say one way or the other. I have to rely on testing and data.

Would be killer if we could get a programmer from Epic in here to help out

 

[Mystic_Wanderer]

I know this feel bruh

Do a clean uninstall of whatever drivers you having running, and re install.

Did not work.

Any other ideas?

 

[Smokey]

Did not work.

Any other ideas?

Did you try an older driver version? Try reseating the card, or using a different PCI-E slot.

You didn't add or change anything?

 

[The Insane Dufresne]

3. Depends on when you resell. Timing is key.

Thanks.

How short is the selling window?

As Smokey said, a midrange card like the 7870 will get you high settings on most games today at 1080P fairly easily. There is an outlier here and there but generally it is true that you only need a midrange card to max most current games at 1080p.

At 1080P is there any advantage to go for the higher end cards?

 

[Mystic_Wanderer]

Did you try an older driver version? Try reseating the card, or using a different PCI-E slot.

You didn't add or change anything?

Nope, it just stopped blowing as hard (the fan) and I went in and saw the power settings were at 0, not 20%.

Everything else works 100% fine except for those two settings, so I have no idea what is going on. I even did a system restore to 3 days ago and that didn't help.

 

[Smokey]

Nope, it just stopped blowing as hard (the fan) and I went in and saw the power settings were at 0, not 20%.

Everything else works 100% fine except for those two settings, so I have no idea what is going on. I even did a system restore to 3 days ago and that didn't help.

Somebody else may be able to chime in, but there was a post on here about a virus that makes your GPU go hard like that. I'll have to see if I can search for it. Try a different slot on your mobo. Here's the thread on the virus I was referring to. Maybe do a scan for it:

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523206&highlight=iehighutil+exe

Thanks.

How short is the selling window?



At 1080P is there any advantage to go for the higher end cards?

I'd say you don't want to wait too long after the next series of cards come out. If you bought a 680 now and in November the 780 is announced, you have about a month - two month window where you can sell and get a decent amount back. Obviously the longer you wait the less you can potentially get, and the more available the newer card becomes your card becomes less attractive.

 

[mkenyon]

I have forgotten the name of it, but it's a Bitcoin Mining Trojan.

 

[Smokey]

Great article at Toms Hardware about SLI and Xfire

Further shows the issues with Xfire at the moment.

edit: Opps meant TOMs lol

 

[kharma45]

Great article at Tech Report about SLI and Xfire

Further shows the issues with Xfire at the moment.

Mkenyon won't be pleased about a Tom's article

 

[Smokey]

Mkenyon won't be pleased about a Tom's article

The more information on it the better.

 

[mkenyon]

Not bad so far, I'll let this one slide.

*edit*

Looks like they are beginning to understand the difference between the two methods, but aren't *quite* there yet. There's a lot of folks that don't fully get it though, Hardware Canucks seems the most confused by it despite their inclusion of the data.

It's like people think that when you say 'frame time', you mean 'smoothness', which isn't accurate at all. The whole point is that you can't accurately measure smoothness with FPS metrics just as you can't accurately determine IQ from a compressed JPEG. The smoothness/variance stuff is a byproduct of using a system that is far more precise than second based polling.