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[Bryank75]

You weren't asking questions. You were spreading FUD because you were literally tripping over yourself to try and inflate the importance of liquid metal in the PS5, to be far more important than it really is.

The only thing you're doing is looking for more ammo to use to be a better console warrior. It's not your intention to learn anything unless it's something you want to hear.

At least be honest with yourself.

Please point out the FUD I spread and where I inflated the importance of liquid metal in PS5...

 

[Dolomite]

.... who's gonna tell him

 

[MasterCornholio]

Honestly I don't think Sony would use something like this if they didn't think it would have any benefits. I know it's been in PCs for a while but it can't be a bad thing to have it in a console. Even if it isn't new.

 

[Dodkrake]

Your comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with my comment. Did you accidentally quote the wrong person?

No, I was replying to you specifically.

You stated that the comment from the other user was "misleading SOME people into believing that liquid metal is far better than it really is. "

You then proceded to explain that delidding needed to be done in Intel CPUs in order to achieve 20 degree drop results.

I then proceeded to clairfy that your comment is disingenuous because you're comparing the benefits only being achievable by deliding while ignoring a tailor made solution.

That's all. It's not for you to take it as a personal attack.

 

[diffusionx]

Agreed on your first point

Disagree on your second point, somewhat. From a cooling standpoint, it is objectively better. From an engineering standpoint, it did show some drawbacks as it took longer to develop. Now we're onto seeing if the effort will pay off and if other players will adopt similar solutions. ROG is transitioning to liquid metal as well, for example.

ROG is also a pricey premium “gamer“ brand that can afford overengineered and unnecessary solutions because they can pass on the price easily and put it as a bullet point on a website.

For a console, I think the honest truth is that it’s only in here because Sony “needed” it to be there - in that it was the best way for them to get it to the place it needed to go.

 

[Dodkrake]

ROG is also a pricey premium “gamer“ brand that can afford overengineered and unnecessary solutions because they can pass on the price easily and put it as a bullet point on a website.

For a console, I think the honest truth is that it’s only in here because Sony “needed” it to be there - in that it was the best way for them to get it to the place it needed to go.

Or, both ROG and Playstation have somewhat similar demographics: Gamers.

And perhaps they reached the same conclusion: A liquid metal solution that is tailor made for the system can bring some / a lot of benefits.

No company would spend millions in developing custom solutions if there wasn't an actual benefit, being it in consumer satisfaction, fail rates, etc.

 

[RedVIper]

And I'll ask you: Where was I wrong?

I answered another user on why liquid metal wasn't worth it for most people in non closed systems because of it's drawbacks and minimal benefits(IMO). You then asked me to say what the drawbacks were on a closed system like the PS5, specifically designed to work with it in mind.

Then I said that wasn't the use case I was talking about, and then you accuse me of comparing apples to oranges.

You failed at reading comprehension or you're just here to stir up shit, either way I'm done.

 

[Thugnificient]

Cool, please state the risks associated with using Liquid Metals in a solution engineered over 2 years and whereby said liquid metals are applied via industrial processes.

The PS5 is a damned console. How often do people open their consoles to fiddle around with the parts or change the paste? Or do you want GPU manufacturers to start using it, eliminating all the aluminum heat sinks from the picture because liquid metals destroy aluminum? Better yet, aftermarket coolers should include a tube of liquid metal instead of thermal grease, running a nice risk for their users to destroy their CPU's.
High-performance PC gaming is largely driven by DIY, not consoles, so including such a risky product as a default would be nothing short of stupid.

 

[vpance]

The fact that they have been working on it for 2 years suggests that they had a higher clocked GPU in mind for a long time. Makes me wonder if there are some inherent advantages to a higher clock rate, like Cerny said at one point in the presentation a while ago. I guess time will tell. I wonder if the liquid metal solution was required to keep the CU count high while still chasing this desirable high clock speed. It's giong to be intriguing seeing how it plays out once both consoles release

It’s interesting that they decided to go ham on every aspect - huge heatsink, liquid metal, giant fan, giant case, high clocks, quiet operation.

I wonder how much they would’ve had to compromise if they simply used thermal paste again.

 

[Dodkrake]

I answered another user on why liquid metal wasn't worth it for most people in non closed systems because of it's drawbacks(IMO). You then asked me to say what the drawbacks were on a closed system like the PS5, specifically designed to work with it in mind.

Then I said that wasn't the use case I was talking about, and then you accuse me of comparing apples to oranges.

You failed at reading comprehension or you're just here to stir up shit, either way I'm done.

if that's the case, apologies for misunderstanding.

The PS5 is a damned console. How often do people open their consoles to fiddle around with the parts or change the paste? Or do you want GPU manufacturers to start using it, eliminating all the aluminum heat sinks from the picture because liquid metals destroy aluminum? Better yet, aftermarket coolers should include a tube of liquid metal instead of thermal grease, running a nice risk for their user to destroy their CPU's.
High-performance PC gaming is largely driven by DIY, not consoles, so including such a risky product as a default would be nothing short of stupid.

What material is the PS5 heat sink?

Edit: Even better - What material is the PS4 heat sink? Because they used more than 1 in different revisions

 

[captainclutch777]

Glad to see there is someone around that has actual experience of this and doesn't just resort to insults.
It's an interesting concept and I'd love to hear how you went about it...

Basically you just pop the IHS (the metal cover over the CPU) using a vice. This exposes the die of the CPU. Intel used some really bad thermal compound here, so by opening up the CPU and replacing it with something as effective as liquid metal you make the TIM much more effective at removing heat from the CPU.

The risk with liquid metal is that its very conductive which means you need to be careful with its application as it can short out components if it gets anywhere its not supposed to. Before I applied mine I actually put some nail polish around the CPU die on any exposed components. This ensured that even if I messed up and applied too much it wouldn't short anything as the nail polish acts as a protective barrier.

The R&D that Sony did basically means that they can use it the way that they are without worries about it moving around and getting anywhere it doesn't belong. It's not a game changer, but I'm sure they didn't spend millions for no reason. Nobody cares about TIM's, but customers will care about a quiet console that doesn't overheat. They didn't use liquid metal to hype up the people on this forum lol

 

[Thugnificient]

What material is the PS5 heat sink?

Edit: Even better - What material is the PS4 heat sink? Because they used more than 1 in different revisions

Doesn't matter what material it is. It's yet another reason you don't see liquid metal along with the myriad of other reasons I listed. To the manufacturers, the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. For the PS5, it's cool because once the console is closed, 99% chance nobody will mess with it.
You're asking why a DIY driven market doesn't use a riskier product more often. Really?

 

[Keihart]

Is it somehow a problem in how you make the manufacturing process to apply it consistently good? This stuff being around for a while for PCs, i thought it was just a cool name for good thermal paste, had no idea that it was somehow different

 

[Bryank75]

Basically you just pop the IHS (the metal cover over the CPU) using a vice. This exposes the die of the CPU. Intel used some really bad thermal compound here, so by opening up the CPU and replacing it with something as effective as liquid metal you make the TIM much more effective at removing heat from the CPU.

The risk with liquid metal is that its very conductive which means you need to be careful with its application as it can short out components if it gets anywhere its not supposed to. Before I applied mine I actually put some nail polish around the CPU die on any exposed components. This ensured that even if I messed up and applied too much it wouldn't short anything as the nail polish acts as a protective barrier.

The R&D that Sony did basically means that they can use it the way that they are without worries about it moving around and getting anywhere it doesn't belong. It's not a game changer, but I'm sure they didn't spend millions for no reason. Nobody cares about TIM's, but customers will care about a quiet console that doesn't overheat.

Thank you for explaining so well, it's refreshing to have someone respond so courteously.
At least I understand the issue with intel cpu's now and how liquid metal is being used to address it.

You are a gent.

 

[wordslaughter]

No, I was replying to you specifically.

You stated that the comment from the other user was "misleading SOME people into believing that liquid metal is far better than it really is. "

You then proceded to explain that delidding needed to be done in Intel CPUs in order to achieve 20 degree drop results.

I then proceeded to clairfy that your comment is disingenuous because you're comparing the benefits only being achievable by deliding while ignoring a tailor made solution.

That's all. It's not for you to take it as a personal attack.

I never said the user was misleading anyone. I said the post was, because it lacked context. The context of why he saw such large reductions in temp. It was not because liquid metal is inherently that much better. It's not.

I never commented about a tailor made solution. You must be thinking about someone else.

 

[Dodkrake]

Doesn't matter what material it is. It's yet another reason you don't see liquid metal along with the myriad of other reasons I listed. To the manufacturers, the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. For the PS5, it's cool because once the console is closed, 99% chance nobody will mess with it.
You're asking why a DIY driven market doesn't use a riskier product more often. Really?

First, it does matter what material it is. If wood was had amazing heat conductivity, I'm sure both MS and Sony would stick a 4x4 on their consoles.

And I did not ask about why DYI driven markets don't use more liquid metal. I've been asking for PS5 comparable examples where Liquid Metal has revealed to be not consistently better and more performant than regular thermal paste. Thing is, there's not, because liquid metal usages are mostly limited to the DIY market, where people apply them on hardware not originally designed for that purpose.

This is progress. May be good progress, may be bad progress, but progress nonetheless. 2 major gaming enthusiast products are now using liquid metal on factory solutions, so there mus be some merit and some breakthrough you or I are not qualified to assess on. And that's it.

 

[captainclutch777]

Is it somehow a problem in how you make the manufacturing process to apply it consistently good? This stuff being around for a while for PCs, i thought it was just a cool name for good thermal paste, had no idea that it was somehow different

It's basically just super good thermal paste that is dangerous because its conductive. Better thermals with the tradeoff being added risk of shorting components if applied incorrectly.

 

[BaneIsPain]

It is great for mass production engineering innovation.

 

[Thugnificient]

First, it does matter what material it is. If wood was had amazing heat conductivity, I'm sure both MS and Sony would stick a 4x4 on their consoles.

Context is everything. You asking me what the heat-sink of the PS4 was made of was irrelevant to the topic at hand. It could have been made of a gold-titanium alloy, the problem is, you're still taking out one of the most widely used materials when using liquid metals.

And I did not ask about why DYI driven markets don't use more liquid metal. I've been asking for PS5 comparable examples where Liquid Metal has revealed to be not consistently better and more performant than regular thermal paste. Thing is, there's not, because liquid metal usages are mostly limited to the DIY market, where people apply them on hardware not originally designed for that purpose.

This is progress. May be good progress, may be bad progress, but progress nonetheless. 2 major gaming enthusiast products are now using liquid metal on factory solutions, so there mus be some merit and some breakthrough you or I are not qualified to assess on. And that's it.

You asked why liquid metal wasn't more commonly used and I said it was obvious, which it is.

 

[thelastword]

What a great revolution of the liquid metal solution.....Lots of research and development surrounding it and they've made it viable for mass production in a console....Kudos to Sony for all the efforts they placed in their cooling solution....That depth of the fan and the genius heatsink design are just straight bonkers. Vapor Chamber type solution in a heatsink. Console should be cool, no matter what as it's already pushing insanely high GPU clocks on a small die......Insane engineering right there....Cerny and his team have no equals in this space....Amazing job....

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

Why do people make threads like this, without realizing
these things have been in existence already, just like the SSD...

 

[Brofist]

You're still doing it.

You don't know what you're talking about. To you, right now applying liquid metal is an "interesting concept that you'd love to know more about"

Fine, learn more about it.

But if you're so new to this topic, WHY are you in here trying to convince eveyone that liquid metal is this miracle that will lower temps by half? WHY are you in here "confused" about "why don't all PC users put liquid metal on everything?" I mean liquid metal is clearly a new miracle,recently invented by Cerny, right?

His master Sony uses it why else

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Yeah I'm also curious what they're going to say about this. Liquid Metal transfers 73 W/(mK), vs 1-12 from standard thermal paste, if you take it apart I would assume you can't just replace it with standard thermal paste.

Probably their official stance is just don't take it apart though.

You'll always get that one fucker online that has dispensable cash lying around ready to replace the PS5's liquid metal with orange juice nevermind thermal paste.

Don't give up hopes of finding a youtube 'What If' video where some cockwomble performs the above experiment on a brand new PS5.

 

[Knitted Knight]

What a great revolution of the liquid metal solution.....Lots of research and development surrounding it and they've made it viable for mass production in a console....Kudos to Sony for all the efforts they placed in their cooling solution....That depth of the fan and the genius heatsink design are just straight bonkers. Vapor Chamber type solution in a heatsink. Console should be cool, no matter what as it's already pushing insanely high GPU clocks on a small die......Insane engineering right there....Cerny and his team have no equals in this space....Amazing job....

That should help significantly too.

You'll always get that one fucker online that has dispensable cash lying around ready to replace the PS5's liquid metal with orange juice nevermind thermal paste.

Don't give up hopes of finding a youtube 'What If' video where some cockwomble performs the above experiment on a brand new PS5.

Don't think it will take more than a week. A lot of interest will go into this. Many people will do it to just compare thermal paste and post results to create drama, whether true or false. It's good in a lot of aspects we're seeing this from Sony on a consumer product that will reach 10s of millions.

 

[LazyParrot]

Nice argument. Care to elaborate?

My point is, ROG also sells LED-encrusted GPUs that look like alien starships, "gaming backpacks" with RGB LEDs and gaming mice with 16.000 DPI sensors. The actual benefits of these "features" are, to put it nicely, limited. But they make for great marketing tools. Liquid metal cooled laptops are no different.

Just think about it for a second. If simply using liquid metal instead of conventional thermal compounds resulted in significantly better performance and thermals for gaming laptops, then why aren't MSI, Razer, Alienware, Acer and god knows who else falling all over themselves trying to implement it too? Hell, why did Asus wait until 2020? As has been pointed out several times in this thread, there's nothing new about this. This stuff has been around for ages. They could have done this years ago, yet they did not. Why do you think that is?

 

[iHaunter]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

I mean, if they sell 100 Million PS5s, won't that make it common?

 

[BlitzerRadic]

I hope some tech youtuber is going to take their PS5 apart and replace the liquid metal with plain old Arctic Silver just to see how it affects temps. I don't think the liquid metal hype crowd would be all too pleased with the results.

Explain how a thermal paste can outperform liquid metal when LM is ~70w/mk and thermal paste is ~9 w/mk?

 

[LazyParrot]

Explain how a thermal paste can outperform liquid metal when LM is ~70w/mk and thermal paste is ~9 w/mk?

Explain where I said it would.

 

[LarknThe4th]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

What are for you the downsides of liquid metal, I an not really computer tech literate

Are there problems with it?

 

[Jmatt110]

I mean, if they sell 100 Million PS5s, won't that make it common?

Not in the DIY PC space

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Explain where I said it would.

OK, I see what you are implying. There are plenty of people who've repasted their Pros with thermal paste and LM and LM outperformed the paste by a big margin. (I am one of them). I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true for PS5.

 

[Jmatt110]

What are for you the downsides of liquid metal, I an not really computer tech literate

Are there problems with it?

It's harder to apply/install and cleanup than regular thermal paste, and there's a higher risk of destroying your components if you screw it up.

This isn't a problem with a console where the heatsink won't be removed, and machines can do perfect application every time.

 

[polybius80]

You weren't asking questions. You were spreading FUD because you were literally tripping over yourself to try and inflate the importance of liquid metal in the PS5, to be far more important than it really is.

The only thing you're doing is looking for more ammo to use to be a better console warrior. It's not your intention to learn anything unless it's something you want to hear.

At least be honest with yourself.

he acepted he was wrong, you are exagerating and it seems you are taking it personal

try and inflate the importance of liquid metal in the PS5, to be far more important than it really is.

do you know how important liquid metal is for PS5? have you tested it with another solution? if not it is you who are talking about things you dont know and spreading misinformation

 

[PSYGN]

I hope we get a taste test of it.

 

[wolffy71]

What's with the goofy options on the poll

 

[DarkestHour]

Please point out the FUD I spread and where I inflated the importance of liquid metal in PS5...

You said it leads to a 50% reduction in temps...

 

[LarknThe4th]

It's harder to apply/install and cleanup than regular thermal paste, and there's a higher risk of destroying your components if you screw it up.

This isn't a problem with a console where the heatsink won't be removed, and machines can do perfect application every time.

Ah so its suitable for a bespoke option like PS5 but not ideal for people making their own rigs at home, a bit out of the sphere of my original question but what do you think compelled them to apply this method on the PS5 are there advantages to its application in a closed platform?

Thank you for the response

 

[Bryank75]

You said it leads to a 50% reduction in temps...

I was quoting from memory and corrected it with reference literally on the next post.... I explained that already.

 

[wordslaughter]

do you know how important liquid metal is for PS5? have you tested it with another solution? if not it is you who are talking about things you dont know and spreading misinformation

Actually, I have tested liquid metal (Conductonaut) against other forms of TIM.

But no doubt if I had said that liquid metal was a significant advantage for the PS5, easily 100% better than any other option, you wouldn't have had any problem with that particular take. But because I KNOW how minimal the difference actually is, you have a problem with it.

It's better. But it's an incremental improvement, not a quantum leap forward.

Secret sauce this isn't.

The reason why PC gamers don't slather it on everything is because ...

1. There is a danger in deliding a CPU or GPU.
2. The benefits are minimal unless there's a problem.
3. It's more work and it's delicate. You sometimes have to cover exposed contacts with nail polish ( atleast that's what I used ) because liquid metal is conductive and if it leaks or goes anywhere it shouldn't it can short out your CPU.

A good reason why you might want to use it would be if you just got a brand new Intel CPU ( from years ago ) and discovered that one or two cores were significantly hotter than the others. This happens because shitty TIM under the IHS was applied improperly.

In THIS case, the benefits will be significant.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

I'm wary of the tech. Sounds good on paper but is simply unproven. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Jmatt110]

Ah so its suitable for a bespoke option like PS5 but not ideal for people making their own rigs at home, a bit out of the sphere of my original question but what do you think compelled them to apply this method on the PS5 are there advantages to its application in a closed platform?

Thank you for the response

Yep that's exactly it.

As for why, it's just straight up better at transferring heat than regular thermal paste (assuming correct conditions for application etc). And while it is better, it's not so much better that it's ushering in a new of era of supercooling or anything.

[Speculation] There's a couple of potential reasons they picked it, such as the console puts out so much heat they needed every little advantage possible, or they went overboard to make it as quiet as possible. Possibly a combination of both.
An added bonus is it's good for marketing; 'Liquid Metal' sounds like a pretty cool name.

 

[Doncabesa]

I trust that Sony has made sure this will work long term, but no I don't think it should be standard.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Been using liquid metal paste [Coolaboratory Ultra] since I first tried it in 2013 on 4770K. It dropped the load temperatures by ~20 C which was mind boggling to me really. No way I'm going back to regular thermal paste. At moderate loads my pc doesn't make any sound at all [noctua fan] only in gaming when gpu fans starts to kick in.

>>> But after some time the liquid just *welds itself* to the heatsink so don't think about taking apart your console to clean the fan regularly or you'll need to use the sand paper to lap the processor and heatsink and get new paste every time. It's not a problem on pc where you can just blow some air from the side and fan is clean again.

 

[bender]

I think the important thing in all of this is that Sony listened to end user complaints and barbs from the competition and have seemingly addressed the situation. Hopefully the solution bares fruit.

 

[polybius80]

Actually, I have tested liquid metal (Conductonaut) against other forms of TIM.

But no doubt if I had said that liquid metal was a significant advantage for the PS5, easily 100% better than any other option, you wouldn't have had any problem with that particular take. But because I KNOW how minimal the difference actually is, you have a problem with it.

I dont know what tests you have done and how accurate they relate to PS5 design but since you are resorting to insults it usually means you have no info about it

 

[TLZ]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

Sure jan.

 

[tryDEATH]

Nice straw man. I did not state aything about its long term efficiency, I questioned the validity (quite ironically) of your statement, since you compared a solution engineered and manufactured to support liquid metal with what is no more than homebrew.

If liquid metal was such a sure bet, we would have had many more companies pursue this thermal solution already, but we don't and legitimate concern over its viability is logical.

Especially when we already know how horribly it can backfire with the events of RRoD, if the paste isn't 100% solid so any sort of experimentation about that subject should be take with precaution, especial long term, where even Sony hasn't been able to get definitive result for 4+ years into use.

 

[polybius80]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

maybe, maybe not, it seems as a natural step for cooling not as a radical change, SSD have been available on PC too for a long time but its now that next gen systems are using them that we see a trend of new games requiring them or at least more often in recommended requirements, also SSD are cheaper now and used more and more specially because console games will exploit them so PC naturally will adopt them maybe the same can happen with liquid metal and we will start to see a trend of heatsinks designs to accommodate it more easily and cheaply

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

maybe, maybe not, it seems as a natural step for cooling not as a radical change, SSD have been available on PC too for a long time but its now that next gen systems are using them that we see a trend of new games requiring them or at least more often in recommended requirements, also SSD are cheaper now and used more and more specially because console games will exploit them so PC naturally will adopt them maybe the same can happen with liquid metal and we will start to see a trend of heatsinks designs to accommodate it more easily and cheaply

PC adopting SSD because they are finally going to be common in next gen consoles, 10 years late to the party? That makes no sense. There is probably a handful (literally) of PC gamers, using a HDD as the main drive in their PC. Everyone else has been using SSD's for several years now.

 

[polybius80]

PC adopting SSD because they are finally going to be common in next gen consoles, 10 years late to the party? That makes no sense. There is probably a handful (literally) of PC gamers, using a HDD as the main drive in their PC. Everyone else has been using SSD's for several years now.

perhaps "adopting" was not an accurate word more as "requiring"

I dont know statistics about what everybody in the world use, but SSD are normally very expensive if you want a decent size for gaming, as a result most people I play didnt used them "several years ago" and are starting to use them today but most still dont have one unless its already included in a laptop

I want an SSD as my main drive(for / and /home ) but I still plan to use the cheap big drives for my steam partitions until I am forced to use one for games