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LGBTQIA+ | OT7 | ~First comes love, then comes marriage~
- Thread starter Kater
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Urh, maybe never mind about that guy
I looked at his facebook profile and found he likes a thing called "Simple Pickup" which is exactly what it sounds like, one of those sleazy pickup things where guys discuss "game" and "wingmen" and how it's not the guys fault if a girl rejects him, ect ect.(
thats a thing?
Yes, it's gross.
I'll let this quote from the site speak for itself:
They masquerade behind the idea of building confidence and bettering yourself when it's more about manipulating women, treating them like objects and lowering their confidence and using tricks to swoop in.
you know there are wars in other countries right? who gives a fuck about lgbt rights
I do see Bel's point in that people should be aware and talk about issues outside their countries but I also think that we can still talk about things like a scene in a upcoming Blockbuster film that is seemingly very problematic.
Films like that will reach a big audience with good or bad messages. And pointing stuff like that out is just normal critique I feel.
Films like that will reach a big audience with good or bad messages. And pointing stuff like that out is just normal critique I feel.
Okay good haha. I was legit 😵
Urh, maybe never mind about that guy
I looked at his facebook profile and found he likes a thing called "Simple Pickup" which is exactly what it sounds like, one of those sleazy pickup things where guys discuss "game" and "wingmen" and how it's not the guys fault if a girl rejects him, ect ect.
and it's listed as a "sport"
Jeez. I knew it was too good to be true
Ewww, that's really gross. Do all his interests revolve around that kind of thing?
Bel Marduk
Banned
Except I'm talking about nothing but LGBT rights in my post. I even mentioned the alarming spike in murders of transgendered people IN THE US this year. A joke in a ridiculous movie just isn't a serious issue.
Thanks for being exactly like the kind of people I described/saw in that other topic while claiming to argue for me. "We can't care about a trite and lazy joke that in the context of the trailer comes across as insulting to trans/non-binary people even though 'jokes' like this perpetuate harmful attitudes against these people because other issues". That's essentially your argument here. One can care about far more serious issues that are quite dire and this as well. We as humans have capacity for juggling multiple things at once and actually juggling those. Of course I'm far more concerned about these other issues and have posted extensively on them (would have made a Transgender Day of Remembrance topic but don't have topic privileges yet) BUT policing something that IS insulting in the context of the trailer to the kinds of people you claim to argue for? Try to get some perspective, please.
umop_3pisdn
Member
I think what's insulting is assuming that it takes all of this effort to get offended by something, like people are just in this ready and primed state to take things as an insult and are walking through life in a constant state of outrage. It's ironic because really how these sorts of things feel usually feel is closer to some kind of unexpected sucker-punch.
I wasn't offended by the Zoolander thing, I interpreted it a bit differently when I saw it, but that's unsurprising since by any interpretation it doesn't really 'apply' to me. If someone is offended I'll take it at face value because I know from my own experience that that sucks.
I wasn't offended by the Zoolander thing, I interpreted it a bit differently when I saw it, but that's unsurprising since by any interpretation it doesn't really 'apply' to me. If someone is offended I'll take it at face value because I know from my own experience that that sucks.
Bel Marduk
Banned
Yes, I read your post in this thread and in the other one. Your passion and time would be much better spent on other issues which have greater effect on LGBT rights.
Zoolander is not significant socio-political commentary. Its clear to everyone who has seen the movie that the titular character as well as Owen Wilson's character are morons. Going by the trailer to the sequel, they are obviously still morons.
What is your goal with this campaign anyway? Do you want the movie to be re-edited? Withdrawn? Banned? Would you like them to show a rebuttal of your making at each screening of the movie?
Ahhh, you were the one trying to sweep trans issues under the rug in that topic by making a "what about gay cis-men?" post instead. Thanks for that. Not like that doesn't happen enough as is. I knew your name looked familiar. If you at all read my posts you would know my passion/time is spent on multiple things at once. I donate and volunteer the little time I have to LGBT issues of all ranges and I talked extensively on trans murder and misogyny in the gay community in that topic. Those two are pretty important issues to me and I really don't appreciate you acting like I don't post about those things.
I saw the original. That doesn't mean that in the context of the trailer that this joke wasn't insulting to trans/non-binary people. I also said numerous times in that topic and even requoted it here that the full movie needs to be seen before we see how All's character turns out.
I'm not a part of the campaign. I do however support and understand the outrage. They have the right to their petition. As I've said and you've ignored numerous times now I simply understand why there would be outrage over the trailer (again because it's 'jokes' like this that perpetuate harmful attitudes to trans/non-binary people in the first place, especially in the minds of people not in the community who will take the joke as 'ewwww, trans people', which in the context of the trailer alone is how it reads to me) and expressed my wishes that people who are not a part of the community being insulted would gain some empathy and perspective on the matter. That's about all I did in that topic. My concerns were mostly with how people were reacting to the outrage than the topic itself. As for the movie itself, if the full movie does treat All's character in the same manner as the context of the trailer, I simply wish that this 'joke' isn't viewed for the joke it is by people at large.
I may as well have just copy/pasted my past posts because it's clear to me you didn't read the first ones.
Tbh, I'm more interested in how spending less time debating Zoolander is going to directly influence something like the murder rate amongst the transgender community.
But hey, I'm sure that the frankly dehumanising attitude a lot of films shows towards that community has caused no harm at all. Because media can't affect attitudes obv.
But hey, I'm sure that the frankly dehumanising attitude a lot of films shows towards that community has caused no harm at all. Because media can't affect attitudes obv.
Aarglefarg
Member
These were two critical hits in a row.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
Wow, am I reading the queer version of NO ALL LIVES MATTER!!!!! ?
smfh
smfh
Bel, I agree with you that there are other more serious matters that impact the whole of the LGBT community on both an individual and complete level. I am not disagreeing with that whatsoever. Those issues deserve our attention more so than anything else. I do however disagree with belittling outrage experienced by some within the trans-community over these smaller matters. That's all. I think our energies can be spent in multiple areas really. I'd rather have a healthy disagreeance than a pointless: "No, YOU don't care" argument when I'm sure all parties involved care about mostly similar issues. I simply tire of trans-issues always being shoved to the side, no matter their severity. I'm not saying you do that all the time by any means but it feels like that happens way more than it should to me hence my annoyance in the first place when you literally argued: "What about the deaths of gay cis-men?" in that Zoolander topic. Which is, of course, important as well.
Bel Marduk
Banned
Nah, I posted about LGBT rights, which includes transgendered people and gay cis-men. Our interests are one in the same and I don't know what you hope to gain by attempting to drive a wedge between gay/lesbian people and transgendered folks. I'm not sweeping transgendered issues under the rug at all, which is why its annoying that you keep harping on such a frivolous thing.
You've posted quite a bit on this topic which makes you part of the campaign. I've read all of your posts (which I already said I did in the other message.)
You still didn't tell me what your goal here is. Do you wish to see the movie censored in some way? Would that somehow stop the perpetuation of harmful attitudes toward transgendered people? Would it make any difference at all?
Bel Marduk
Banned
Uh, no.
Black people are disproportionately being harassed and sometimes killed by police. Statistics back this up. Its a very serious issue.
Saying that "all lives matter" is completely missing the point at best and, at worst, denying that these very real problems exist.
If you don't understand the difference between that and complaining about a stupid joke in a movie, then I don't know what to tell you.
Let's be real here: You posted in that initial topic solely about gay cis-men and hardships (which I admitted as much in the original topic are very serious matters) they face in reaction to some in the trans-community reacting to a trite and lazy joke that is repeated all the time in the media that is frankly insulting. People are influenced by the media which in turn influences how they treat marginalized people. That's part of why this matters and why I understand their outrage. berzeli gets where I'm coming from there.
I'm not attempting to drive any wedge. I am simply speaking to a fact of the matter that trans-issues are often swept under the rug no matter their severity. Especially by gay cis-men who think the LGBT movement is theirs and theirs alone. It's not a frivolous thing either, it's something that happens way more than it should I tire very much so of people constantly shoving trans-issues to the side because "we can't care about that, what about this!". Your post in that other topic reminded me of that kind of attitude in the first place and it's simply an attitude I tire very much of seeing. And tire is putting it lightly. I'm not "targeting" you, I simply tire of this kind of attitude and it just reminds me of that.
Again, that being said, yes, there are more serious issues. That does not mean we can't discuss all of them. Playing a "we can't be offended over this because this" game just doesn't make sense and it's one I don't care to be a part of.
I've been discussing more about the reaction to the outrage than about the movie itself. And I've been very straight-forward here about my views on the movie. I've also repeated to you numerous times now that in the context of the trailer it's insulting and the full movie needs to be seen first, so I feel I'm being fair here to the movie. I simply support and understand why this outrage exists. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself and I'm not going to do it anymore. You can either respect me enough to actually read my posts as I feel I am being as fair as possible given how you're treating me or you can continue to belittle me and claim I don't care about serious issues and that I want to burn/edit/whatever Zoolander 2 when I haven't said such a thing at all. If you do the first, I'd be happy to continue this discussion. If not, then have a good day, Bel.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
The same happens to Trans people in the all over the world. It's not "just a stupid joke" It's something that will be seen by many people, it enforces the idea that Trans people are jokes and shouldn't be taken seriously. Using the deaths of queer people in Russia and all over the world when a member of the trans community is saying that "A little joke" will cause harm to the community is kind of really disgusting. There are barely any Transgender characters in the media and most of the ones that are out there are treated as jokes, and yes, I realize that Zoolander or whatever the fuck makes fun of everyone!!! So? Straight cis characters are always given variety and different roles while Trans people are reduced to this fucked up "lol look at this person!!! ahahaha" roles.
Telling someone to shut up because this certain event is happening somewhere else is downright stupid. Why care about LGBT rights? There are wars everywhere!! Why care about wars? There are aliens out there!!
In my eyes, using the death of others to prove some lame point that punches down on members of a community will always be incredibly fucked up.
Bel Marduk
Banned
Well, I'm sorry if what I am saying reminds you of what other people have said. What I have said is that LGBT interests converge and I even cited several problems which are specific to transgendered people.
I am not part of these nebulous "gay cis-men" that you have such an axe to grind against.
Yes, transgender issues are very important to the LGBT community. Its right there in the name. I've not seen anyone argue otherwise.
The hot dog or bun joke is simply not important to transgender rights OR the larger LGBT community. Quite frankly, the outrage over it makes us look silly and thin skinned. Every transgendered person I've ever met has been extremely strong-willed, likely BECAUSE of the very real issues that they have faced.
By getting so worked up about a joke in a movie you are ABSOLUTELY belittling more serious issues.
hey it's a new page and this discussion is awful so here's this person that makes me absolutely wet. Everything about him is just...whew. The nose to ear chain, the band on the bicep, the loose pants with the dangling coins on the side, the wristbands...goddamn!
i'm just gonna quote my friend here:
(and boy-thirst too obv)
i'm just gonna quote my friend here:
(and boy-thirst too obv)
Bel Marduk
Banned
Transgendered people are very much discriminated against in Russia. Perhaps more than gay men or lesbians.
Unfortunately, we are extremely ethnocentric here in the US. Even if you only care about problems in your own country, you should be aware of the spike in murders against transgendered people and place it above this joke in importance.
Transgendered people are portrayed in media now more than ever, though. Caitlyn Jenner was on the cover of pretty much every magazine earlier this year. She even won an ESPN award.
Is that enough? No, of course not. So much more needs to be done in order to bring attention to transgender issues. That's exactly why the Zoolander 2 outrage is so horribly misguided.
Dead Prince
Banned
But what kond of hairstyle does he have. That's the deciding factor for me.
I'm glad that you can act as supreme moral arbiter in cases such as these, especially since your post shows that you have such a clear understanding on how prioritised transgender rights are and historically have been. I mean, the letter T is in the initialism and the T does stand for transgender which means that the LGBT community never has overlooked them. So since the letter T exists (I even checked the dictionary to make sure) we clearly should be talking about the things you so deeply want to talk about (which is why this is the first time you are posting about these issues in this thread).
Exactly how do we tackle these more serious issues? Do tell how one would take the time which otherwise one would have completely wasted on trying to make Hollywood stop casually dehumanising transgender individuals which in turn empowers individuals to act out on their bigotry and instead use that time on a serious issue.
Elitist1945
Member
So I'm sitting at home NOT seeing The Weeknd in Montreal.
What is everyone else up to?
:'(.
What is everyone else up to?
I understand why someone might get offended by the joke but at the same time we all laugh at jokes that might offend all other kinds of people. We have seen movies making fun of disabled people, fat people, minorities and all different kinds of things people do and we laugh to some of those things. I respect those who are offended by the joke but at the same time respect those who are not offended by the joke. Its not a piece film that will represent a generation by any means and it doesn't have a big message behind it. There is a market for all kinds of films with sensibilities and insensibilities and if you don't like one thing you simply shouldn't watch it but at the same time keep fighting the fight voicing your complains to encourage better implementation of LGBT characters without taking content away from others. Censoring or removing everything is not the answer to solve the issues but work on making content for the community benefit. Some things have evolved in TV and films slowly with the implementation of LGBT characters and we keep seeing more implementation these days.
Also the same way some want straight romances out of TV and films I find it a bit silly to me cause in the end I think what we want is more integration of LGBT romances instead of just removing or ignoring straight romances. A lot of times on these situations I see them being one sided without room for a middle ground that could benefit everyone instead of forcing something on others. I find it fine to fight for better representation but at the same time respect others instead of just calling them bigots and other insults because at the same time those who are getting offended cause someone is not agreeing with them are bigots as well cause they are not respecting those individuals either. I'm perhaps not making any sense but whatever I voiced my opinion.
Also the same way some want straight romances out of TV and films I find it a bit silly to me cause in the end I think what we want is more integration of LGBT romances instead of just removing or ignoring straight romances. A lot of times on these situations I see them being one sided without room for a middle ground that could benefit everyone instead of forcing something on others. I find it fine to fight for better representation but at the same time respect others instead of just calling them bigots and other insults because at the same time those who are getting offended cause someone is not agreeing with them are bigots as well cause they are not respecting those individuals either. I'm perhaps not making any sense but whatever I voiced my opinion.
talez of zeztriwhatever has a canon gay protaganist
but it's apparently dumbledore-ish in that it's never confirmed in the game, and only mentioned/implied by the game's producer.
i hate that shit lmao. shit doesn't count!
but it's apparently dumbledore-ish in that it's never confirmed in the game, and only mentioned/implied by the game's producer.
i hate that shit lmao. shit doesn't count!
There are hints in the game but really easy to miss if you are not paying attention. Also a bit confusing when other characters link the lead to different characters. Without spoiling maybe some might link the ending to that with stuff that happens there. Spoilers here if interested on how someone might link em.
Lights and Waves
Member
Why did the mods close it...that's a bit unsettling. We can have threads talking about women being sexualized in video games, but one thread about a gay man in an RPG and we're done? That's not cool.
meh, thread got locked.
someone in there said
and i think this is totally bullshit too. it's not a good step, it's not really any step.
i'm here for the last of us: left behind-style representation, not this dumb 'oh they held hands for a second before the screen changes to something else' stuff.
there was no real source for what OP was saying. also there's a whole thread still open about sexualizing male characters so...you might be reading too far into it.
someone in there said
and i think this is totally bullshit too. it's not a good step, it's not really any step.
i'm here for the last of us: left behind-style representation, not this dumb 'oh they held hands for a second before the screen changes to something else' stuff.
there was no real source for what OP was saying. also there's a whole thread still open about sexualizing male characters so...you might be reading too far into it.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's because the thread was premised on a quote that wasn't verifiable. As much as I'd like it to be the case, the thread didn't have the evidence that it claimed to. I think the OP even said that they'd be okay with the mods closing the thread until a source was actually found.
EDIT: Yeah, what Sai-kun said.
So, GAF, tomorrow I'll be all alone in London and I'm looking for some cool places to check out. I think I've seen most of the landmarks here, except for the Buckingham palace and Covent Garden, so I'll head there first. Any recommendations on what to do/see afterwards? Didn't think this deserved a thread so I'd rather ask this awesome community
dragonlife
Member
Remember when people said they were just really good friends, and that she was too young to know, or that she was confused, or... zzz. Even when we win, we lose!
Regarding Tales: you're right, it's bullshit. It's lazy as fuck and it should be confirmed in-game in some capacity. I get that sometimes it's not easy to throw a "Hey, I'm gay" scene or whatever, but in Tales that shouldn't be hard because of skits. They're numerous and optional.
Japan loves to not mention these things and you could argue, "Why should it matter if someone's gay or not?" and so on, but it doesn't hurt to let us know, either. Because representation is nice when done right.
Another game I can think of where someone's homosexuality was hinted at once in-game and confirmed by the writer/s was Nier.
Aarglefarg
Member
Tales of Xillia had this skit where the main character is annoyed at being asked if he 'swings both ways':
https://youtu.be/YCZyIVpvqRI
I am not far into Zestiria but I wondered about Mikleo and to a lesser extent Sorey. Apparently Mikleo shows an interest in a character named Edea too?
https://youtu.be/YCZyIVpvqRI
I am not far into Zestiria but I wondered about Mikleo and to a lesser extent Sorey. Apparently Mikleo shows an interest in a character named Edea too?
NickWright
Member
Well, Persona 2 had Jun, who was gay and actually had a nice development as opposed to most "joke relief queer characters". And I think the Persona 2 writer said that
Tatsuya and Jun were intended to be the canon pairing for Innocent Sin? Been a long time since I played that game.
It is androgynous and that's why the guy was confused in the film.
It could have been more obvious, but I thought it was acceptable enough in that case, considering the character in question is a kid with severely stunted social development.
Though that was before I stumbled across the non-canon audio drama where they blew him up into a full-on gay panic stereotype, sniffing Nier's panties and begging to be tied up...
dragonlife
Member
I'm not disagreeing. I was mainly concentrating on characters that were confirmed outside the game. In Nier's case, the only hint was enough because it even made me wonder, "Wait, is he...?"
I have to find it but I'm pretty sure there is actually a skit that basically confirms it. Well, idk, it could be STRONG HINTING at it again.
umop_3pisdn
Member
I think the problem is the whole 'joke' about what was in All's pants being a little too close to transphobia. It doesn't necessarily have to be a trans character to evoke the same problems. You can maybe play it off as Zoolander being ignorant, since it is Zoolander, but considering he's the lead and how bad people are detecting nuance unless they already implicitly know how they're supposed to feel about a certain situation (which they're not going to with trans issues, since they're unfamiliar), so it doesn't work that well. A lot of people didn't seem to get the memo that they weren't supposed to empathize with Walter White in Breaking Bad, for example, so the 'it's making fun of Zoolander's stupidity' defence isn't necessarily that satisfying. And considering that the whole "what genitalia do you have" question is an indignity a lot of people feel comfortable directing at trans people, I could see how that set up is uncomfortably familiar or disappointing.
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